S&T vs IBD
Hi,
Currently trying to apply for summer internship in BB but wondering which is better IBD vs Sales Trading summer analyst both at BBs
ultimate goal Risk Arb, Special Situation Sales or Analyst in a HF.
Thanks
Hi,
Currently trying to apply for summer internship in BB but wondering which is better IBD vs Sales Trading summer analyst both at BBs
ultimate goal Risk Arb, Special Situation Sales or Analyst in a HF.
Thanks
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Up pleaaase
It depends which one your ultimate goals you want more. IBD is better for moving to the role of analyst at a HF while S&T is better for the special situation sales position.
For macro, S&T would be far more relevant
Confirmed. S&T aint what it used to be though. I can't tell you how many people we've had apply for jobs shortly after joining sell side desks w/o really realizing what they were getting into... running a macro book on the sell side used to be comparable to working at HF, now not even close.
MB...for people coming from alternative channels (not current BB employees)...what is your advised method for getting a shot at a macro trading seat?
Thanks for your reply guys,
-But the ultimate goal is Merger and Arbitrage whether Buy-Side or Sell-Side: Is it interesting to get a M&A internship prior to jump in Merger Arb ?
-I have an another question At the end of the summer internship at a BB, do you choose the division you want to work for? For instance If my summer internship in S&T went well can I ask to work for the Equity division especially in the Risk Arb section ?
Thanks
S&T vs Ibanking, which would be better for me? (Originally Posted: 01/02/2008)
Basically I thought I wanted to do ibanking, because I prefer working on longer projects, but my friend suggested that I should look into trading because:
I don't really think I would be fit for trading because I don't really like following the market to the point of being stressed out by it... i guess you could call me risk-averse
can anyone offer suggestions?
I'll also say that the three goal roles you mentioned are vague and quite different from one another. Get some clarity on your aspirations, and try not to have such a hard on for working at a BB. Life is too short, imo
I think most of the people on this board will disagree strongly on better training for PE/HF. If you're going to a quant-focused hedge fund, then yes a S&T background would be more beneficial depending on the group of course. However, IBD is a much more applicable for PE and you'd be hard pressed to find a better entry point into PE than IBD.
Many of the IBD groups can be highly technical and your math skills will be very advantageous. You need to think about whether you want LT or ST projects, can handle the longer hours, are more interested in corporate finance or the market. As far as stress goes, they're both stressful but in different ways. I would suggest doing some more reading like the Vault guides, in order to get a better sense of a typical day doing both, as they're clearly very different.
is it okay to apply and interview with both groups?
harder to break into ibd or s/t? (Originally Posted: 03/29/2007)
is it harder to break into ibd or s/t?
Up !
And last thing, stop commenting 'up.'
I'm at a top shelf target, and not all, but most of the kids who are summers for S/T or Capital Markets or PWM are there because they didn't get IBD.
above is based on one data point. in truth, the top people choosing IBD will go to GS, MS, ML, and the top people choosing S/T will go to GS, DB, etc, and the top people choosing quant Asset Management will either be at elite HFs, or internal asset management arms of banks (i.e. GSAM quant). different areas for different skillsets. a guy suited for GS IBD may not be able to do stats worth beans and would never make it past the resume screen for GSAM, while a quant at GSAM may not have the interpersonal skills for sales. for most people though that are throwing their resume in the ring and get an "i-banking" job somewhere, IBD will probably be easiest among these "front-office" jobs, simply because there's many times more spots available and they're willing to accomodate any kind of background (Sales too, but not as many spots), numerate or not.
simple numbers...so many less spots than banking
I went into S&T coming out of a top MBA program. Neither IBD or S&T were tough to get--almost everyone I knew had 2-4 offers on average, both for summer internships and for full-time (if they did full-time vs. just accepting their summer offer). So from a numbers point of view they were the same. But the interviews are totally different, so you can't really compare the two. It's like asking whether Colgate-Palmolive marketing is tougher to get a job at vs. Microsoft vs. McKinsey vs. Goldman. They are all tough to get from a numbers point of view, but you're comparing apples to oranges.
not sure about that skins. I think S&T is tougher as there are less positions. im a 2nd year in a banking group now and am having a hell of a time moving to a role in S&T.
Different people different cultures. If you come from a science or maths background it would be much easier to get into S/T as opposed to IBD. Otherwise do what you enjoy the most (though as a manager at a HF I can't understand people who would rather go into IBD as opposed to S&T).
Why is this?
analyst26: why the transition?
to be honest I wanted S&T from the start and w/o going into the specifics of my situation I will say a banking job came along first due to the city i am in. at the time I wasnt in an IB so I had zero product exposure but getting into banking got me that exposure as well as getting a solid firm name on my resume. although Ive learned a lot in banking it really isnt for me.
I think it's less about which is better and more about which fits your background more closely. Also you may have a preference, but you do not get to choose your desk. Try not to get "divisions" and "desk" mixed up when referring to BB's.
Chances ---- IBD or S&T for a better chance? (Originally Posted: 05/12/2007)
School: Non-HYP Ivy GPA: 3.3 Coursework: 6 upper-level finance courses (Deriv, deriv II, fix inc, adv corp fin, M&A process, fin econ/derivs) ECS: no bullshit clubs, but 2 very, very solid ECs SA: No SA this summer, already have a previous obligation
-Provided I am a solid interviewer, what chances do you think I have for FT? Also, which area do you think I have a better chance in, IBD or S&T?
Thanks
You have a better chance at the one you are more interested in
That's the thing man, I am excited for both. I can honestly say I don't have a favortie. Leveraged Finance seems incredible. But the opportunity to trade is incredible. At this point I would rather pursue the one that is easier to find a spot in.
I think you mentioned that you're at Dartmouth and I am pretty sure Dartmouth doesn't have any of those courses. Where'd you take them?
not sure i believe that, and sounds like you'll apply to both IB and S&T positions regardless of responses here. i think S&T tends to put less consideration on GPA, as that seems to be your weak point.
You need to elaborate more. What do you want? Why are you excited about IB? Why are you excited about S&T? That's the only way you can recieve guidance?
Also, you seem to have good credentials. What makes you doubt your chances?
my 3.3 gpa. from what ive been hearing it is too low.
heard that if you apply to both IBD and S&T, they won't even look at you. These are very different type of work, it's like you saying "I don't mind a lawyer or accountant." It will show:
1) you don't know the difference between the two --> YOU LACK RESEARCH SKILL 2) you don't know what you want to do --> YOU HAVE NO CLUDE ABOUT YOUR LIFE 3) you don't care which one --> THEY DON'T LIKE PEOPLE WHO SHOW NO COMMITMENT.
so with all due respect, you choose the one you like, and stick to it. They can really see in you.
heard this as well, but the fact of the matter is i know plenty of kids who applied to IB/S&T/ER and got interviews at both... not saying that its not good to be selective, but its not bullet to the heart to apply to different things as well.
I think a lot of kids from the top schools apply to both and get offers from both. Many jobs on the floor are VERY similar to banking. Additionally, you just need to know how to spin things properly.
I'm only going to apply to one. Assuming I like them both equal, and provided I can ace the technical interviews for both, which do I have a better chance of landing?
I still don't understand your question. I don't think you have a better chance of landing one over the other if you can ace technical interviews for both. Your credentials haven't change. Maybe you're thinking that your GPA would look better to one industry vs. the other. Both areas have the same standards.
I've heard the gpas for S&T are slightly lower.
im guessing gpas for S&T are lower...not because the banks put less emphasis on them but because the applicants for S&T will most likely be coming from more math heavy programs and just tend to have lower marks compared to the finance/acct majors that go for ibanking.
Dude, that's ridiculous. Your GPA will only get you as far as the first interview: after that, it doesn't matter -- and with your credentials you should definitely get something, esp if you go to the presentations and work the people from the firms there.
You say "provided you're a solid interviewer," but given that you don't have a summer internship, how do you know that? How many banking or S&T interviews did you go to? How can you assume something like a success at the interview where, in my experience, it all depends on whether your interviewer clicks with you or not?
And when it comes to the interview, being excited and knowledgeable about the field you want to enter goes a long way. If I were you, I'd do my research, talk to people in the industry, maybe ask to shadow somebody for a day in the office.
I mean, I'd understand if we were talking about making a career choice based on something that actually matters -- but choosing a career based on GPA, which gives you a marginal advantage for the first rounds of interviews is downright stupid.
In my experience, GPA makes a marginal difference between your chances in S&T and IBD. I don't know who came up with an idea that it does, and that for S&T it is supposedly less. I say that because I applied to both, and I got roughly the same number of interviews from either.
Think about it: today, trading is not as much about being an uneducated fat greasy fuck who started at the back office and worked his way up by being an obnoxious asshole with a trackrecord of success (just using an image from Liar's Poker) -- it's more about complex strategies and ability to assess risks and opportunities.
I mean, S&T includes some groups that are WAY more quant than anything in IBD: I once interviewed with an S&T group that had three physics PhDs in it. Almost all people who are smarter than me and who are good in math/physics/CS go to trading, not IBD. Why one would think that GPA is less important in trading is beyond my understanding.
So were did you end up?
PE :)
PE after IB or direct entry?
Direct, and not in the US, though I applied from here. It was a very rare, unrepeatable, circumstantial, and long process outside the regular recruiting and, no, it was not connections.
Good deal. How do you like PE?
I'll find out mid-July. Meanwhile, I party my ass off. What are you doing this summer?
My friend and I own a deck building company. I wanted to get out of it to do a SA, but I did promise him sophomore year that I would continue on with him until graduation. He never went to school so I feel I owe him this summer, as he plans on doing this for the rest of his life.
A deck building company? That's pretty fucking awesome. Good luck.
Yeah, we started it in high school. He wanted to take a year off before school; that year turned into 2 which will probably turn into eternity. Anyway, soph year he approached me and asked if i would work w/ him over the summers and i agreed.
In short, neither is "better"", just different. In my view:
S&T Pros - Better hours, more fulfilling work, more meritocratic, gain general macro knowledge Cons - Easier to get pigeonholed as desks are more product specific than in IB, lack of breadth in exit opps, not what it used to be
IB Pros - Better exit opps, slightly higher bonus, better technical skillset Cons - Terrible hours, work consists of very menial tasks, much more hierarchical
Also, this depends whether you are in the US, EU or Asia given S&T has better rep in the last two than in the US. EDIT: These views are obviously related to a junior's view/duties
S&T Summer Analysts (Compared to IBD) (Originally Posted: 03/22/2007)
So everybody on these boards is always talking about the experience of summers in IBD and its SA to FT rates. Obviously as a summer in trading you cant do as much because you arent licensed, but do you still put in the long hours (of course you are doing everything you can to be noticed, but it seems like at the end of the day, their just isnt as much you can do late into the night). Also are the hiring rates to FT much different than IBD or pretty much the same deal?
You don't do much, from what I've heard, but your hours are great. Out by 8 PM, unless you're on the FX desk apparently.
Intern conversion rates are much lower, at around 50%, at least for DB and GS, but take this with a grain of salt, I'm IBD.
you mean if you're on an fx desk you get out a helluva lot earlier than 8, right?
Offer rates are pretty bad across the board for S&T..50% is too high for some banks (where 30% is more the norm). That being said, I think it's hard for banks to judge the skills needed to be a good trader just from a few interviews, which is why they will take on more people and end up having to cut a bunch at the end. The also end up cutting the vast majority (9/9 at the place my summer roommate interned at) of interns that come from the diversity programs, so that could be a factor impacting the offer rate as well.
From my experience, its pretty hard to not get an offer on a S & T desk.....just take initiative, ask insightful questions, act like you love what you are doing, don't ask to be placed in a different group while you are there, complete projects that they give you, be the first one on the desk(6a for IR Der. desk) and among the last to leave(all of us left arounf 6), go out with the group whenever they all go out...thats pretty much all you need to get an offer.
Yeah but Kasanova, you might just have what it takes to be a trader so it might have seemed easy for you. What was the offer rate at the bank you interned at? I don't know the exact offer rate for s&t at the firm I interned at (since I was in banking) but I heard it was around 50%.
Dav3100, On my desk.....everyone got an offer to come back FT. Overall, I'd say that the average offer rate was ~75-80%. The people that didn't get offers were either really blatant about not doing the things I mentioned in the above thread, or they were just unbearable to be around(even their fellow interns didn't like them). Remember S & T is a lot about personality as an intern. When you come back for FT, after the first year or so, it becomes all about performance. I'll admit, a lot of the personalities on this board would probably be asked to leave if they made some of the comments, or expressed some of the sentiments that they have expressed on this board. But then again, there are those that I think have great personalities for S &T...
hi, so I have an internship this summer with a BB, equity sales, they only hired 2 interns this summer ..so I was wondering ...will it be between me and the other intern to fight for the FT? how do they judge who'll be gd at the job? and more specifically any ideas about what stuff i'll be doing? e.g. coffee runs etc
anything else I should demonstrate? exuberant personality etc? or speciifcally focus on
Not sure where a lot of you guys are getting your info...I was a summer analyst in "S&T" at a top BB firm, out of the 60 who interned, roughly 85% were asked back. The hours are good. You might have to come in earlier in the AM...like 6-7 depending on the desk, but on all my rotations, I was out by 5-6 pm...great experience.
IBD vs. S&T: Which Creates more "Economic Value"? (Originally Posted: 11/25/2013)
Interested to hear what you monkeys think. Bonus points if you include Management Consulting in your analysis.
Thanks a lot guys for all your answers very helpful !
IBD is sexy but S&T is what has built (and destroyed) the most powerful investment banks
So if you're looking for net value add, it's probably going to be IBD. If you're looking at what has the most effect on the economy, it's S&T
Please define "Economic Value". Are you talking about what side of the bank makes more money for the bank or which side actually adds economic value to the economy overall?
Do you propose to use the income method or the expenditure method? Bankers get paid a lot, y'know...
Given that IBD may well be net value destructive its probably S&T.
Wait, what? IBD net value destructive? I must have missed the M&A deal that caused the GFC, which one was it again?
Edit: Assuming OP means from the perspecitve of the economy as a whole
to clarify for everyone, I was thinking from a macroeconomic perspective.
to clarify for everyone, I was thinking from a macroeconomic perspective.
to clarify for everyone, I was thinking from a macroeconomic perspective.
to clarify for everyone, I was thinking from a macroeconomic perspective.
From a macroeconomic perspective it's not even close. S&T is a volume business. It is the market...equities, fixed income, structured products, FX...everything. It involves the movement of billions/trillions of dollars per day.
IBD involves more specialized and time intensive activities that yields deals every few months. It serves a necessary function and creates impressive results, but just cannot compare in shear volume to S&T.
@turnyasystemup
Sorry, were you thinking from a micro or macroeconomic perspective?
lol'd
Is S&T or IBD better for breaking into HF? (Originally Posted: 04/28/2016)
Intuitively, it would make sense to me that certain S&T desks are the best for breaking into HF's. However, most people on this site seem to think IBD is better, especially after 2008. What are your thoughts? Also if one were to go into S&T, how many years would they have to work there before having exit ops into Macro HF? Thanks guys.
doesnt fucking matter - it is just an internship
Bump
It depends on the strategy the hedge fund follows, i.e. there's no one right choice. IBD lends itself to Event Driven strategies (e.g. Merger/Risk arbitrage, Distressed Securities). S&T lends itself to strategies such as Fixed Income or Convertible Arbitrage, CTA.
As for the time it takes, the question is far too vague. It depends what role you're trying to transition into, at what level, and ultimately there's no rule, formal or informal.
Credit Risk: IBD vs S&T (Originally Posted: 12/10/2010)
I have the opportunity to work in credit risk at a top BB. Within this department, there is some mobility between working with the Sales and Trading side and working with the IBD side. I believe I will have a slight influence in choosing between the two. I'd like to know what you think about the two opportunities in terms of the type of work and any differences in money. Does the IB side make more money? It seems that working on the S&T side will be more quantitative and interesting to me, what do you think?
Is this question too specific and out of the scope for this board, or what? I thought at least IlliniProgrammer would jump in, possibly Anthony too.
IB or S&T: Who's getting kicked to the curb this time round? (Originally Posted: 06/22/2011)
Fellow monkeys, who is getting cut more in this latest round of layoffs on the street? Is it IB (ECM, DCM, FIG, etc) or S&T? I'm curious. Anyone with the inside scoop, please share here.
..
Lot of back and middle-office folks got laid off, like IT and prime brokerage. Also wealth management.
Trading has had some layoffs, especially at credit suisse, but not nearly as bad as 2008. I haven't heard specific numbers though.
lots of IT and PB was cut or will be cut? Any inside news about the upcoming layoffs? especially barcap, thanks!
Also interested, might be harder for me to make some moves in the coming year(s).
:(
A friend at Barcap mentioned more S&T guys
S&T, although I'd not be surprised to see ECM guys hammered too..the market has been crazy about new listings recently..Glencore's IPO has been a disaster so far, Samsonite and some others haven't been much better - not to even mention a dozen of cancelled or postponed IPOs over the last 2-3 weeks..
Is the mathematics frequently used in IBD or S&T? (Originally Posted: 04/28/2013)
Hi dude, I'm wondering if knowledges of the mathematics are used in the office. I'm kind of worried that I forgot most of the things I learned in high school.. I could just remember a bit of functions and log, matrix..
IB is just basic math (+,-,/,x). Some of the more mathematically technical IB groups (securitization group in DCM) might use a little more complicated math.
@AlphaGeneration thanks for ur comment!!
So you haven't taken any math in college?
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