S&T vs IBD

Hi,

Currently trying to apply for summer internship in BB but wondering which is better IBD vs Sales Trading summer analyst both at BBs

ultimate goal Risk Arb, Special Situation Sales or Analyst in a HF.

Thanks

 

Thanks for your reply guys,

-But the ultimate goal is Merger and Arbitrage whether Buy-Side or Sell-Side: Is it interesting to get a M&A internship prior to jump in Merger Arb ?

-I have an another question At the end of the summer internship at a BB, do you choose the division you want to work for? For instance If my summer internship in S&T went well can I ask to work for the Equity division especially in the Risk Arb section ?

Thanks

 

I think most of the people on this board will disagree strongly on better training for PE/HF. If you're going to a quant-focused hedge fund, then yes a S&T background would be more beneficial depending on the group of course. However, IBD is a much more applicable for PE and you'd be hard pressed to find a better entry point into PE than IBD.

Many of the IBD groups can be highly technical and your math skills will be very advantageous. You need to think about whether you want LT or ST projects, can handle the longer hours, are more interested in corporate finance or the market. As far as stress goes, they're both stressful but in different ways. I would suggest doing some more reading like the Vault guides, in order to get a better sense of a typical day doing both, as they're clearly very different.

 

above is based on one data point. in truth, the top people choosing IBD will go to GS, MS, ML, and the top people choosing S/T will go to GS, DB, etc, and the top people choosing quant Asset Management will either be at elite HFs, or internal asset management arms of banks (i.e. GSAM quant). different areas for different skillsets. a guy suited for GS IBD may not be able to do stats worth beans and would never make it past the resume screen for GSAM, while a quant at GSAM may not have the interpersonal skills for sales. for most people though that are throwing their resume in the ring and get an "i-banking" job somewhere, IBD will probably be easiest among these "front-office" jobs, simply because there's many times more spots available and they're willing to accomodate any kind of background (Sales too, but not as many spots), numerate or not.

 

I went into S&T coming out of a top MBA program. Neither IBD or S&T were tough to get--almost everyone I knew had 2-4 offers on average, both for summer internships and for full-time (if they did full-time vs. just accepting their summer offer). So from a numbers point of view they were the same. But the interviews are totally different, so you can't really compare the two. It's like asking whether Colgate-Palmolive marketing is tougher to get a job at vs. Microsoft vs. McKinsey vs. Goldman. They are all tough to get from a numbers point of view, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

Different people different cultures. If you come from a science or maths background it would be much easier to get into S/T as opposed to IBD. Otherwise do what you enjoy the most (though as a manager at a HF I can't understand people who would rather go into IBD as opposed to S&T).

 

to be honest I wanted S&T from the start and w/o going into the specifics of my situation I will say a banking job came along first due to the city i am in. at the time I wasnt in an IB so I had zero product exposure but getting into banking got me that exposure as well as getting a solid firm name on my resume. although Ive learned a lot in banking it really isnt for me.

 

I think it's less about which is better and more about which fits your background more closely. Also you may have a preference, but you do not get to choose your desk. Try not to get "divisions" and "desk" mixed up when referring to BB's.

 
consultant16180:
I think you mentioned that you're at Dartmouth and I am pretty sure Dartmouth doesn't have any of those courses. Where'd you take them?
fin econ is at dartmouth. the rest are summer courses from the last 2 summers.
 

You need to elaborate more. What do you want? Why are you excited about IB? Why are you excited about S&T? That's the only way you can recieve guidance?

Also, you seem to have good credentials. What makes you doubt your chances?

 

heard that if you apply to both IBD and S&T, they won't even look at you. These are very different type of work, it's like you saying "I don't mind a lawyer or accountant." It will show:

1) you don't know the difference between the two --> YOU LACK RESEARCH SKILL 2) you don't know what you want to do --> YOU HAVE NO CLUDE ABOUT YOUR LIFE 3) you don't care which one --> THEY DON'T LIKE PEOPLE WHO SHOW NO COMMITMENT.

so with all due respect, you choose the one you like, and stick to it. They can really see in you.

 
carfield:
heard that if you apply to both IBD and S&T, they won't even look at you. These are very different type of work, it's like you saying "I don't mind a lawyer or accountant." It will show:

1) you don't know the difference between the two --> YOU LACK RESEARCH SKILL 2) you don't know what you want to do --> YOU HAVE NO CLUDE ABOUT YOUR LIFE 3) you don't care which one --> THEY DON'T LIKE PEOPLE WHO SHOW NO COMMITMENT.

so with all due respect, you choose the one you like, and stick to it. They can really see in you.

heard this as well, but the fact of the matter is i know plenty of kids who applied to IB/S&T/ER and got interviews at both... not saying that its not good to be selective, but its not bullet to the heart to apply to different things as well.

 

I think a lot of kids from the top schools apply to both and get offers from both. Many jobs on the floor are VERY similar to banking. Additionally, you just need to know how to spin things properly.

 

I still don't understand your question. I don't think you have a better chance of landing one over the other if you can ace technical interviews for both. Your credentials haven't change. Maybe you're thinking that your GPA would look better to one industry vs. the other. Both areas have the same standards.

 

im guessing gpas for S&T are lower...not because the banks put less emphasis on them but because the applicants for S&T will most likely be coming from more math heavy programs and just tend to have lower marks compared to the finance/acct majors that go for ibanking.

 

Dude, that's ridiculous. Your GPA will only get you as far as the first interview: after that, it doesn't matter -- and with your credentials you should definitely get something, esp if you go to the presentations and work the people from the firms there.

You say "provided you're a solid interviewer," but given that you don't have a summer internship, how do you know that? How many banking or S&T interviews did you go to? How can you assume something like a success at the interview where, in my experience, it all depends on whether your interviewer clicks with you or not?

And when it comes to the interview, being excited and knowledgeable about the field you want to enter goes a long way. If I were you, I'd do my research, talk to people in the industry, maybe ask to shadow somebody for a day in the office.

I mean, I'd understand if we were talking about making a career choice based on something that actually matters -- but choosing a career based on GPA, which gives you a marginal advantage for the first rounds of interviews is downright stupid.

 
afftar:
Dude, that's ridiculous. Your GPA will only get you as far as the first interview: after that, it doesn't matter -- and with your credentials you should definitely get something, esp if you go to the presentations and work the people from the firms there.

You say "provided you're a solid interviewer," but given that you don't have a summer internship, how do you know that? How many banking or S&T interviews did you go to? How can you assume something like a success at the interview where, in my experience, it all depends on whether your interviewer clicks with you or not?

And when it comes to the interview, being excited and knowledgeable about the field you want to enter goes a long way. If I were you, I'd do my research, talk to people in the industry, maybe ask to shadow somebody for a day in the office.

I mean, I'd understand if we were talking about making a career choice based on something that actually matters -- but choosing a career based on GPA, which gives you a marginal advantage for the first rounds of interviews is downright stupid.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. I am very upbeat about the prospects of a career in finance, still, I can't decide between IBD and S&T. It would be an incredible opportunity to work in any of those fields. I guess I just want to pick the one which will afford the best entrance opportunity.
 

In my experience, GPA makes a marginal difference between your chances in S&T and IBD. I don't know who came up with an idea that it does, and that for S&T it is supposedly less. I say that because I applied to both, and I got roughly the same number of interviews from either.

Think about it: today, trading is not as much about being an uneducated fat greasy fuck who started at the back office and worked his way up by being an obnoxious asshole with a trackrecord of success (just using an image from Liar's Poker) -- it's more about complex strategies and ability to assess risks and opportunities.

I mean, S&T includes some groups that are WAY more quant than anything in IBD: I once interviewed with an S&T group that had three physics PhDs in it. Almost all people who are smarter than me and who are good in math/physics/CS go to trading, not IBD. Why one would think that GPA is less important in trading is beyond my understanding.

 

Direct, and not in the US, though I applied from here. It was a very rare, unrepeatable, circumstantial, and long process outside the regular recruiting and, no, it was not connections.

 

My friend and I own a deck building company. I wanted to get out of it to do a SA, but I did promise him sophomore year that I would continue on with him until graduation. He never went to school so I feel I owe him this summer, as he plans on doing this for the rest of his life.

 

Yeah, we started it in high school. He wanted to take a year off before school; that year turned into 2 which will probably turn into eternity. Anyway, soph year he approached me and asked if i would work w/ him over the summers and i agreed.

 
Best Response

In short, neither is "better"", just different. In my view:

S&T Pros - Better hours, more fulfilling work, more meritocratic, gain general macro knowledge Cons - Easier to get pigeonholed as desks are more product specific than in IB, lack of breadth in exit opps, not what it used to be

IB Pros - Better exit opps, slightly higher bonus, better technical skillset Cons - Terrible hours, work consists of very menial tasks, much more hierarchical

Also, this depends whether you are in the US, EU or Asia given S&T has better rep in the last two than in the US. EDIT: These views are obviously related to a junior's view/duties

 

You don't do much, from what I've heard, but your hours are great. Out by 8 PM, unless you're on the FX desk apparently.

Intern conversion rates are much lower, at around 50%, at least for DB and GS, but take this with a grain of salt, I'm IBD.

 

Offer rates are pretty bad across the board for S&T..50% is too high for some banks (where 30% is more the norm). That being said, I think it's hard for banks to judge the skills needed to be a good trader just from a few interviews, which is why they will take on more people and end up having to cut a bunch at the end. The also end up cutting the vast majority (9/9 at the place my summer roommate interned at) of interns that come from the diversity programs, so that could be a factor impacting the offer rate as well.

 
dav3100:
Offer rates are pretty bad across the board for S&T..50% is too high for some banks (where 30% is more the norm). That being said, I think it's hard for banks to judge the skills needed to be a good trader just from a few interviews, which is why they will take on more people and end up having to cut a bunch at the end. The also end up cutting the vast majority (9/9 at the place my summer roommate interned at) of interns that come from the diversity programs, so that could be a factor impacting the offer rate as well.

From my experience, its pretty hard to not get an offer on a S & T desk.....just take initiative, ask insightful questions, act like you love what you are doing, don't ask to be placed in a different group while you are there, complete projects that they give you, be the first one on the desk(6a for IR Der. desk) and among the last to leave(all of us left arounf 6), go out with the group whenever they all go out...thats pretty much all you need to get an offer.

 

Yeah but Kasanova, you might just have what it takes to be a trader so it might have seemed easy for you. What was the offer rate at the bank you interned at? I don't know the exact offer rate for s&t at the firm I interned at (since I was in banking) but I heard it was around 50%.

 

Dav3100, On my desk.....everyone got an offer to come back FT. Overall, I'd say that the average offer rate was ~75-80%. The people that didn't get offers were either really blatant about not doing the things I mentioned in the above thread, or they were just unbearable to be around(even their fellow interns didn't like them). Remember S & T is a lot about personality as an intern. When you come back for FT, after the first year or so, it becomes all about performance. I'll admit, a lot of the personalities on this board would probably be asked to leave if they made some of the comments, or expressed some of the sentiments that they have expressed on this board. But then again, there are those that I think have great personalities for S &T...

 

hi, so I have an internship this summer with a BB, equity sales, they only hired 2 interns this summer ..so I was wondering ...will it be between me and the other intern to fight for the FT? how do they judge who'll be gd at the job? and more specifically any ideas about what stuff i'll be doing? e.g. coffee runs etc

anything else I should demonstrate? exuberant personality etc? or speciifcally focus on

 

Not sure where a lot of you guys are getting your info...I was a summer analyst in "S&T" at a top BB firm, out of the 60 who interned, roughly 85% were asked back. The hours are good. You might have to come in earlier in the AM...like 6-7 depending on the desk, but on all my rotations, I was out by 5-6 pm...great experience.

 

IBD is sexy but S&T is what has built (and destroyed) the most powerful investment banks

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
 

So if you're looking for net value add, it's probably going to be IBD. If you're looking at what has the most effect on the economy, it's S&T

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

From a macroeconomic perspective it's not even close. S&T is a volume business. It is the market...equities, fixed income, structured products, FX...everything. It involves the movement of billions/trillions of dollars per day.

IBD involves more specialized and time intensive activities that yields deals every few months. It serves a necessary function and creates impressive results, but just cannot compare in shear volume to S&T.

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
 

It depends on the strategy the hedge fund follows, i.e. there's no one right choice. IBD lends itself to Event Driven strategies (e.g. Merger/Risk arbitrage, Distressed Securities). S&T lends itself to strategies such as Fixed Income or Convertible Arbitrage, CTA.

As for the time it takes, the question is far too vague. It depends what role you're trying to transition into, at what level, and ultimately there's no rule, formal or informal.

 
Brady4MVP:
Lot of back and middle-office folks got laid off, like IT and prime brokerage. Also wealth management.

Trading has had some layoffs, especially at credit suisse, but not nearly as bad as 2008. I haven't heard specific numbers though.

lots of IT and PB was cut or will be cut? Any inside news about the upcoming layoffs? especially barcap, thanks!

 

S&T, although I'd not be surprised to see ECM guys hammered too..the market has been crazy about new listings recently..Glencore's IPO has been a disaster so far, Samsonite and some others haven't been much better - not to even mention a dozen of cancelled or postponed IPOs over the last 2-3 weeks..

 

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