Stand Out as a Non-Target: The Interview (Part 2 of 4)
In Part 1 we discussed some tips on networking and recruiting for a Non-Target.
In this piece we are going to do a quick walkthrough on how to stand out assuming you have landed the interview.
The Setup: The first thing you need to know before you walk in the door is the type of personalities that are generally on Wall Street. In two words, Risk Averse. What this means is that in general, a Wall Street firm will choose the least risky candidate time and time again not all is lost as you’ll see later in this post but we’ll begin with some common myths.
Myth 1: You are not equal when you enter the interview room. This is going to rub some people the wrong way so here’s the quick explanation:
Knowing that you are interviewing with risk averse people if you have a Non-Target candidate and a Target candidate all else equal you are choosing the Target candidate. Why? Well if you and another candidate have the same answers to questions and the same work experience why should they take on additional risk by going with a non-target? They shouldn’t. With that said it should also emphasize the point that you should always shoot for a high level when you are networking (IE: networking with an MD would give you a much better shot than networking into an interview through an Associate).
Myth 2: Lazard/Quatalyst/Moelis/Evercore are boutique banks… This is simple mis-understanding of the space, boutique banks are small firms that people on WSO would unlikely recognize. That’s how you should classify boutique. For one reason or another some people still believe they are boutiques when in reality you should consider them “Elite Boutiques” (term seen on WSO) which essentially means just as difficult to break into as a bulge bracket bank. The truth is a firm like Moelis/Evercore etc. may actually have tougher standards than a bulge bracket bank. Why? If a bulge bracket bank hires 100 analysts, an “Elite Boutique” hires much less maybe just a handful per office. So if a bulge bracket hires a few poor candidates they do not lose as much by training them and subsequently firing them on a relative basis. Again Wall Street is risk averse so “Elite Boutiques” have to carefully handpick the best they can find to make sure they don’t have underperformers as each candidate is likely going to see a wide range of responsibilities where bulge bracket banks can manage a few poor hires.
Myth 3: Many people on here get this last one, however getting all technical questions correct is not important. While you cannot miss easy ones such as how to calculate enterprise value or how to run a DCF, many interviewers simply push your technical knowledge to the edge until you admit you do not know more. This is for two reasons 1) they want to see if you are going to lie and 2) they want to see how much finance you know and of course the more the better.
Samples
With the setup out of the way how exactly do you “stand out” when you answer questions? The answer to this is again two words: Make Connections. What this means is you should tie in all of your work experience, bank knowledge and Wall Street knowledge into all of your interview answers. To avoid beating around the bush here are three examples (feel free to adjust wording, the message is the same in bold).
Why should we hire you? Your average target is going to have a cookie cutter answer such as XX internship, XX interest in banking, hard working because of XXX. So you’ll have a similar answer but you need to spin it and avoid making any comment that suggests you are “smarter” than the other candidates as this will only highlight that you are at a Non-Target, instead highlight your positive points such as work experience and bank knowledge, something like this.
“I’m sure there are a lot of highly qualified people interviewing today and I believe I would be a good fit because of (specific reasons linked to group you are interviewing for such as medical experience if interviewing with healthcare group). In addition, I am primarily interested in XXX space for XXX reason (reason is backed up by resume line items) and have a strong interest in expanding my knowledge in the space where (job position) will offer a steep learning curve. Overall I believe my experience/knowledge in XX will be helpful and am willing to put in the long hours necessary to add value as quick as possible.”
Message: I have experience that is useful, I am humble, I know what I am signing up for and I have a passion for the job.
Why Did You go to XYZ School The answer to this question for most people will be the finance courses offered and other general target school answers. This is actually a set up for you to sell yourself if you went to a non-target. The worst thing you can do is say “I did not get into a Target” again you need to spin your reasoning. Some good examples are 1) financial, 2) location and 3) family.
“I went to Non-Target as I was fortunate enough to receive a XXX scholarship in XXX for XXX reasons. I saw that the school offered XXX finance courses and felt that I could take XXX courses and network into a Wall Street position. Given the cost savings and curriculum I felt that it was a good decision for me to make and I have enjoyed my time at Non-Target”:
Message: I am not apologizing or complaining about the school that I went to, I do have an understanding of finance and I have a legitimate reason for making these decisions
Why Our Bank Here you have a good chance at standing out. Generally speaking most candidates do not know much about investment banking deals/transactions so if you did your homework you can give a standout answer.
“I want to work for XXX bank because I believe my experience in XXX, XXX and XXX fits into the Company’s long history of XXX (type) transactions. As an example I am interested in XXX space and the Company has recently completed (transaction 1, transaction 2, transaction 3) in the last twelve months and this is the type of work that I am interested in.”
Message: I know exactly what the bank does, I know deals that have been completed recently and I know how my experience can fit into the group.
TL;DR: As a Non-Target your goal is to 1) highlight your strong points on a resume, 2) connect with the highest possible person in the firm, 3) have strong answers that explain your decision making over the past 4 years and 4) stand out by knowing and understanding the bank/space better than the Target school students.
Give answers that would sell well to a Risk Averse person and be sure to Make Connections between all of your positive characteristics and those that will make you appear to be a strong fit for the firm.
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Notably we could do a hundred different answers to help spin questions but the point will remain the same, highlight your strong points and appear to be as safe as possible from the viewpoint of the interviewer.
I like it.
Just trying to spread the truth. Was betting the first comment would be a flame festival over Myth #1.
Unbelievable stuff thanks a lot for this post
another well written post
Re: Myth 2... I'd definitely be surprised if people here thought the BX/GHL/Evercore/Moelis/Lazard bracket was easier to get into than the bulge bracket. It's significantly tougher to place into and they place extremely well (especially for their class sizes) on the buy side... the only exception being top groups within top firms... your GS TMTs, etc.
GS/MA >> elite boutiques >> Jesus >> rest of BB
Forgive my ignorance, but what is this MA you speak of?
This is great! Thanks for sharing.
I didn't read it all but just wanted to address myth #2.
As a non-target I have found it, to this day, easier to get in front of Elite Boutiques than BBs. In fact, I have had the sum total of four interviews in my time at Elites, and only one at a BB (and that was for capital markets too).
I suggest this is because of the less rigid recruitment process (particularly in Europe, BBs have a computer filtering initial application, EBs have people who can read), how they look into their candidates for greater corporate finance ability, awareness, the ability to comport yourself well in front of clients and genuine interest, rather than filling a seat with someone they know can just do the job. I would also posit that my exposure to restructuring has played a factor in that. Further, since the smaller teams in EBs, they expect a higher level of knowledge, and should be seen as an opportunity for an non-target to show off.
But mostly, but by no means exclusively in the aforementioned four interviews, it's down the ease of networking and your connections' ability to effect an interview.
Read and bookmarked. Thank you for the input.
Thanks for this. Just curious on the technical questions part.. Say as an interviewee, you do fairly well on your fit and behavioral questions, have a good story, and get most of your basic technicals right but fail to get in depth and only get a few of the more advanced questions correct. You're saying that this would not have a great impact if, say, you mess up on your behavioral questions badly but get every technical question correct.. Just curious because I have heard mixed things on this.
Comment for book mark.
Agreed. I have a hard time getting in front of any BB's outside of the one I worked for but I went to Evercore/Moelis/BX and interviewed for a restructuring position. It was 30 seconds of me smiling and giving my background and then off to the technical races. I've never left an interview feeling more frazzled than that one.
Gotta be Mastercard, right?
Nice post. Thank you. Do you have any advice for answering the "Why Non-NY city?" question, especially if you have never been there? For example, if I am interviewing in SF, but am from the East Coast, how would you approach that?
Appreciate the post. Good call on risk aversion; never thought of that but it makes perfect sense.
1 is spot-on. For better or for worse.
@BlackHat entirely agree. Rhyme for Rhyme, Line for line you got a better punch at breaking into BB's than E-boutiques.
@Oreos This is not an insult at you but how many offers did you actually receive even though you got an interview at an E-boutique. For what it is worth, if you get a premium linked in account and flip through the people who work at E-boutiques you'll be on a unicorn search for non-targets for the most part. One reason or another (mentioned in post), its actually quite tough to receive a hard written offer as a Non-Target and on a betting basis; would 9/10 say Non-Target to BB is more common than Non-Target to E-boutique. Then again your experience is European based so will take your word for it. We're speaking to US recruiting. Also congrats on the job.
@valueadded glad this question came up. You can actually stand out a little on some technical questions as well. Here is an example:
"What is enterprise value" = MV + Debt - Cash... You can't really stand out here. However...
"Walk me through how an M&A deal is sourced" = "M&A deals can come up in many ways but as an example (bank name) recently completed (Transaction). The MD may have had an existing relationship with (sell or buyside firm) and pitched them to (sell themselves or buy XXX firm) through a pitchbook. A pitchbook generally includes why a transaction would work for strategic/financial reasons, the valuation methodologies and of course an overview of the teams/bank working on the deal. Assuming the pitch goes well and both parties are interested, then the deal goes live and you begin negotiating with (buyside or sellside) for a fair price where a deal is eventually reached."
Notice formula answers are not really going to change, market cap, EV, WACC are all the same. However if you can again make connections tying in what you know about the bank, or the space you're going to look significantly more attractive than the candidate who gives a canned answer that is certainly correct but does not highlight all the work you've done in understanding the space/bank
@KKS so for your example come up with a "sector angle" if you're coming to SF your sell is that you want to work in Technology. If you were going to Texas you'd sell that you want to work in Oil.. If you're going to Los Angeles then you may want to do a Media spin etc. Generally speaking, the clout of NYC will be strong enough to move to a regional. EX: Moving from a BB in NYC to a BB in SF/Boston/Texas is slightly easier because NYC is perceived as tougher. There are always exceptions, but your best bet is to spin a Sector. The second best spin is to spin your family connections (if possible) and the third best spin is to have a specific group you want to work for (notably you better know them like the back of your hand so they really believe you wish to work for their specific team).
Think that's all of them.
Very appreciative of these posts. What's your background, though, Wallstreetplayboy? No intent to call a bluff, you're very knowledgeable, just wondering.
Never seen flake approve of something before. not quite sure what to do..
Got 2 and turned them down. Recently got an offer from a mega fund, turned that down too. I think it's very hard to make generalisations, so am not trying to, and personally think it is of no value. If you're a non-target, you shouldn't be thinking "which 6 banks should I apply to, EBs? naaaa, they'll never take me" it should be "GOTTA NETWORK AND APPLY TO ALL BANKS NOW AARRGWGSGSR!"
Great post!
@oreos impressive and good work! Maybe Europe is a tad different as USA E-boutiques are typically harder (agree with blackhat) but of course you apply to anything and everything. You don't get results if you never ask.
Good stuff, looking forward to pt 3 and 4
Yes that's a good way to look at it. Chasing $500M + deals on lean banking teams
The reason lean is emphasized is if you look at your career you want responsibility to get paid. Ie: would argue that working for Moelis and doing $500M transactions on deal teams of 3-4 people is significantly better than working for MS/GS/C/BAML etc if you did nothing but spread comps all day on a massive team giving you zero exposure to the process.
Finally, the last reason adding the deal size is key, is because some firms have grown and now split their divisions. Ex: Lazard even splits teams into middle market and Large Cap transactions so you hear the phrase "are you in middle market or Lazard large cap". This again changes your responsibilities and exposure.
Think that answers the question.
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