Summer Internships (IBD): Lehman Brothers vs. Morgan Stanley

If it is an internship go to MS but if it is for FT then go to the one where you like your group the most. 100 hours with people you dont like no matter how prestigous the company is will absolutely make you miserable. Your team will most likely be the most social interaction you will have between a living human being for those two years of your life.

If you truly can get it, you just got into a top-3 investment banking group on the street (GS TMT and UBS LA being the other two).

MS M&A will open any door you want for full-time recruiting.

Wow, I guess it can be difficult to gauge how individual groups are perceived in the industry from outside the industry. Is MS M&A really tops in the industry? Also, what groups if any are at the top at Lehman?

Thanks

y2yankees99 check your msg inbox

If you are talking about MS M&A level, then only the other two I mentioned are ranked.

There have been numerous threads on this lately with the whole recruiting dance happening. Verify for yourself or, better yet, talk to someone in the industry (who'll give you straight answers).

y2yankees99:

If I can ask, how did you get an offer to select any group you want within the two firms?

Did you go through the normal superday process, or did you have a contact within the firm?

I'm studying abroad this upcoming semester. They allow study abroad students to interview early at both places. I didn't have any connections prior to attending info sessions in the fall. At these sessions I would say that I got to talk to and make a good impression on some influential HR members at both firms. Lehman actually had a superday for study abroad students. For MS I went in one day and did 5 interviews and there were no other applicants that came in at the same time as me. However, I have talked with others who are studying abroad who did the same.

Lehman: They just offered me whatever group I wanted. They said that as long as I give them a decision before they give out acceptances for those who are not studying abroad that I could choose any group (very nice of them).

MS: Won't actually let me choose a group.I don't have a spot in m&a for sure, but because I have the Lehman offer and a Citi offer I've been able to leverage those into promises that they'll do everything in their power to get me m&a. One of my interviewers and the head of MS recruiting at my college was a VP in m&a so I was also able to talk to him and tell him that I was interested in his group. I believe that their policy is to not assign specific groups upon giving out the offer.

Congrats. Both seem like great opportunities.

go MS M&A - cant go wrong and if you dont like it during the summer, you can do fulltime at any other bank.

MS M&A? seriously, this should be a no-brainer. ppl would choose even mediocre groups at GS/MS over top groups at other BBs. encourage u to accept the MS offer NOW before M&A gets filled up.

I agree wholeheartedly. You would be REALLY stupid to take Lehman over Morgan Stanley. The only firm to take over Morgan Stanley is Goldman.

Everyone needs to stop over-analyzing and realize MS and GS WILL ALWAYS OPEN MORE DOORS FOR YOU LATER.

Pick up the WSJ and read about ppl who are doing interesting things (i.e., 5 years ago, who was opening all the hedge funds)- it is ONLY MS and GS ppl.

ExGSBanker:

I definitely see where you are coming from and am leaning towards the MS offer. However, it does seem like from an outside the industry viewpoint that MS and Lehman are firms that are moving in opposite directions (Lehman being the one improving). Does MS really still have the same prestine reputation that they undoubtably had not too long ago? If I able to secure MS M&A then I think what you are saying is absolutely true.

Thanks for the input.

MS is doing just fine after purcell quit. check stock prices.. there's a significant gap between GS/MS and the rest of the banks that won't be closed in a decade.

Yeah I guess so, but obviously stock prices while a good indicator aren't the full picture as far as how a company is doing. The turnover towards the top of MS IBD is a concern. Has there actually been unusually high turnover in MS IBD or is that just LB trying to convince me to turn down MS? I read some articles on recent happenings, but I'm not sure whether they amount to an unreasonably high amount?

If anybody knows what the top groups within Lehman IBD are that would be much appreciated as well.

Thanks

Sorry to change to topic a bit, and I am extremely glad and excited that you got these offers y2yankees99, but would you mind posting your stats (Gpa, school, etc)? Because getting so many offers from Citi, Lehman, MS, is really something to be proud of.

Doesn't matter - maybe not forever, but for the next 10 years, MS will always be a harder job to get than Lehman and therefore will be well respected. Even if you end up in an ok group as MS, people realize you still have the MS pedigree.

Also, don't believe anything they tell you about groups at all unless you have it in writing.

In 3 months, they'll just say "business needs changed" and force you into another group.

What do TPG, Blackstone, KKR, Hellman Friedman, Apollo, Cerberus, Carlyle, Forstmann Little, SAC Capital, Renaissance Tech, DE Shaw, Icahn, Pickens, Soros, Tudor have in common?

None of them were GS/MS guys...

I'm not saying you shouldn't take MS M&A or that a ton of successful people haven't come out of those 2 firms, but let's be realistic.

actually started out at Lehman.

MS losing steam and LEH gaining ground is something to be worried about over the long-term, which definitely does not apply to your summer internship. Even if this was the case, MS M&A will not go from top-3 to a no-name group over your summer. For your purposes, which should be having a successful full-time recruiting season, MS M&A will be your best bet.

I repeat, it has the potential to open EVERY banking and PE door available to you at an undergraduate level.

However, do take ExGSBanker's advice about taking what they say about placements with a grain of salt. Their main objective, right now, is to sell the firm and get people signed, even if that means making promises they won't keep.

"Basically I have offers to join any group within investment banking at either firm."

MS M&A isnt a sure thing for you dude. To walk into the process thinking this is the case will yield a less than optimal result. Don't you think everybody is going to want in @ MS M&A?

I'm going to a different stance from the rest of the posters and disagree. Well not disagree, but at least offer my own insights.

MS may look better on your cv, but I wouldn't go there simply because of the way it would appear on your resume. Three months is a long period of time, and if you end up really hating your time there (and not getting a ft offer at the end), it'll be all for naught.

In the end I think you should choose wherever you think you'll have a better overall experience in terms of learning, making contacts and possibly even accepting a ft position later on. The fact that you've gotten offers from both sides shows that you're an extremely well qualified candidate and I think you'll have plenty of open doors regardless of which offer you accept. Good luck

I want to thank you all for the good and definitely keep it coming if there is anything else I should be considering.

Should I take any notice to which firm is selling themselves harder to me? Lehman has definitely put in more calls. I've had 3 different 45 min conversations with individuals in banking at Lehman. Should I brush this off as Lehman knowing that they have an uphill battle against an offer from MS?

leveragedsellou: In hindsight I agree with you on the MS m&a. I'll explain MS situation in more detail. I can intern in any group at Lehman and I am being allowed to choose my top 3 at MS. However, at MS I have expressed my interest in m&a and talked to numerous people (both from m&a (vp) and HR) who interviewed me and now have been guiding me through my decision, and have expressed that they are putting in a word to hopefully get me in m&a. Keep in mind that it's also very early in the process and that most internship spots have not be offered yet and therefore most likely no group is close to being full. However, with that being said I am still cautiously optimistic about the group and would still be satisfied if I were to be placed in my 2nd or 3rd choice.

Also, what are the roles available as an analyst in PE? Do they generally get paid similar to analysts in IBD? I guess that I have never really considered the industry straight out of college. Although, I find the product of leveraged finance to be interesting, I have always thought that by the time I would be ready/interested in transitioning a couple of these mega deals to come will have burst sending the sector back down to earth.

take MS M&A

Not that I disagree about current hiring practices, but if anything ex GS/MS-founded PE is the exception, not the rule.

how would the GS risk arb desk produce PE? totally different stuff.

y2yankees99, it's not that hard of a decision. literally, a no-brainer. u must be a smart guy if u got offers from those BBs.. i hope that ur just trying to see how ppl react, with the answer already in ur mind.

once u accept an offer, it doesn't matter which offers u had received. i.e., if you accept the lehman offer, the world will assume that the best offer u managed to get was lehman, which will obviously hurt u when the time comes for u to compete against GS/MS analysts.