Changing Groups within same bank
Is it common at all for analysts to ever switch their industry/product group after a year or two years within the same bank? (either to fill staffing needs or because of personality conflicts)
Is it common at all for analysts to ever switch their industry/product group after a year or two years within the same bank? (either to fill staffing needs or because of personality conflicts)
+164 | The "Not So Obvious" things that get you a return offer? | 19 | 3h | |
+94 | Is my life over after not getting GS? | 20 | 4h | |
+64 | Best IB group on the Street | 27 | 25m | |
+54 | BIG FOUR ARE PARADISE | 15 | 1h | |
+46 | Thoughts and tips on how to speak like an investment banker. | 25 | 2s | |
+43 | Tell me one good reason why Jefferies isn’t going to be a top bank in the next 5 years | 22 | 4h | |
+36 | UBS Outlook | 28 | 1d | |
+35 | Georgetown Placement for 2024 and 2025 | 21 | 6d | |
+33 | How to deal with egotistical team? | 6 | 2d | |
+31 | Highest Paid Bankers in Toronto? | 51 | 1s |
Career Resources
It's common for analysts to do their 3rd year in a different group, but i don't if it's for the reasons u mentioned. People usually want to stay in banking, but expand their experience by working with a different product or industry.
When analysts tend to leave then before 2 years, do they tend to be replaced by lateral hires, or does everyone else in the group just get staffed more?
both
Do banks ever hire laterals without losing an analyst? If no one leaves the group, does that mean they will not hire a prospective lateral?
Not necessarily, if there increasing deal flow and they need an extra analyst, they will probably look for laterals.
Switching divisions within firms how does the process work? (Originally Posted: 05/09/2007)
If you try to switch divisions within banks (from Asset Management to IBD) does the interview process become any quicker or easier given the fact that you have previously been at the bank, albeit in a non IB division.
Furthermore, if you have stellar recommendations from people within the company that have been in investment banking previously at that respective bank how does that affect you?
Do you go straight to the Superday without other interviews, do you have the regular interview schedule but with easier questions, can you not even interview and just switch, or do you have the same process with the same questions as everyone else?
How does it work.
it actually can be harder depending on your specific situation. if you are an intern trying to switch divisions it is hard to not piss off your current group by trying to switch (and your current group will provide feedback on you for the switching process). Also, there can be some politics involved....for example if you were a superstar analyst the MD or VP in your group might not want to "let you go" to another division even though you are qualified for the other job and would prefer it.
however, at many banks the process is established and people are supportive of your decisions
I'm going to be a summer intern in Asset Management this summer and want to switch for next summer
So I might not be a superstar analyst, but if I'm a superstar intern it should help me out I'm guessing.
Actually my group has a couple of former Investment Bankers in it so I'm assuming they do know other people currently in IBD so they can pull strings.
Does this change the situation at all?
From my experience, if you try to make the jump and don't make it, don't expect to go back to the position you had before. It is a major risk, if you leave an area for another or they know you interview for it you are hurting your reputation within that group
Switching Desks (Originally Posted: 09/14/2013)
How common is it to switch from an equities desk to FI or anything else (options, fx, etc) Specifically coming from a trading assistant role but also curious about more senior levels.
It's not common really, but it's not impossible. As with everything, it's case-by-case really.
Some of it might depend on how similar the products are. Going from, say, High Yield --> Equities (fundamental), or Govt/Sovereign --> FX (macro) might be a tad easier than going from Orange Juice Futures --> Catastrophe Bonds.
I moved around quite a bit in the start. Equity deriv. trading --> FX spot trading --> Equities trading. My stints were short due to whole teams being replaced and some shifts around, but this is by far not the norm. I could just as easily have been fired, but someone probably felt sorry for me and offered me a new shot (a few months in before the whole desk was replaced.)
Thanks guys I appreciate the insights
I switched firms. From equities to FI.
How to change groups/divisions? (Originally Posted: 03/22/2007)
Hi,
In many posts returning topics are which groups/divisions are top notch..
Sometimes analysts/associates/vp's leave because of the hours or whatever reason..
These spots obviously have to be filled...
How can one change group/division?
e.g. IBD FIG to IBD TMT, IBD Industrial to IBD M&A execution, PWM to IBD, Equity Research to IBD Leveraged finance etc...
wait until your 3rd year to switch groups. the spots are filled by lateral hiring, or they overhired in the first place
Too early to change groups? (Originally Posted: 02/07/2014)
-Edit-Question answered, thanks!
your group will always "need" you - go do what you want to do
Anyone else have any thoughts would like to hear your perspectives.
If you get along with your group, just bring it up with your boss. Don't be a p*ssy. Just phrase it in the right way and they should be happy to help out.
+1'ed
Thanks definitely appreciate the feedback, and you are right not a good time to pussout when it affects my career. I get along great with the group, have established myself as a top performer, and have helped out with additional projects, etc. that fall outside scope of my current role which they liked. Hopefully they take it well, my only apprehension here was that I never made it clear that I wanted to do Corp. banking ultimately whereas some people I have spoken to have been very open with their bosses and told them from the get-go. Thought it would be better to just kill it daily rather than focusing on where else I ultimately want to be and if an opportunity arises just cross bridge when I get there.
Came across similar situation, except that I just started (1+ mo) and I am in a corp banking position for a regional office but would like to move into IB. Did an internship in BB IBD in HK, so I'm confident that I have the skill set for the job. The only concern is that looking for other opportunities might affect my current job and my manager might not be very happy with it. Any suggestions are very much appreciated.
Switching Groups at BB (Originally Posted: 08/03/2010)
Hey if someone's interested in switching between divisions within the same BB ex: DCM to Credit Research, how should one do so? Also, before or after offers for the group one is in originally already given out?
In the middle of the internship, HR sends out emails asking for resumes from people who want to switch out into a different division. You have interviews during the internship and receive an offer when everyone else does.
My BB didn't quite offer that; any ideas with this situation?
Internally Transferring to Another Trading Desk (Originally Posted: 05/26/2013)
Hey everyone, FO at a large b/d. A manager from another trading desk (FX) asked me if I was interested in transferring to work for him. How is this usually viewed (by my current boss) in S&T? Could this seriously fk me if it gets out that I want to go? Kind of hard to ask around internally w/o it getting out. Thanks.
Also, no college kids plz, just ppl with experience in this.
I'm a simple guy, but I've always thought being upfront and truthful is the way to go.
First, would you rather do FX? If so, would you rather work for the new guy than your current boss? Where will you have better opportunities to advance, given group structures and number of people ahead of you? Where will you get your own book first?
If the answers to these leads you to FX then ask the desk head how you should proceed/what the appropriate steps are to take because he will know. Don't try to hide anything from your current boss unnecessarily.
How soon can I switch groups? (Originally Posted: 07/25/2015)
1st year analyst who got switched into a random group which was different than what I summered in. Not enjoying the culture, or the work I'm doing, and am looking to make a move. I'd ideally like to target an internal move, as I know associate's at my current bank (alums) in different groups, but I'm unsure of when to approach them and ask for help making the move. I'd like to move no later than a year, but I know the process takes some time. I also don't want to appear ungrateful, but at the same time, what else are you supposed to do when you get placed in a group that you don't see yourself in long term and doesn't align with your future goals and aspirations?
Thanks
What group are you in and where do you want to be?
I was placed in a product group, and summered in an industry group. I'd like to be in an industry group full-time, and not spend longer than I have to specializing in a product.
Thanks
I doubt you'd be able to switch before a year is up. Maybe at the six month mark.
I've seen it happen before.
usually 1 year. if it's an internal move you can do it sooner unless HR policy prevents it.
But I know it's possible to do it within a year - the question is really when do I start reaching out to my contacts expressing interest in moving, internally or externally?
Has anyone switched groups internally? (Originally Posted: 09/22/2010)
I have a few interviews with other groups within my investment bank in a couple of days and I'm wondering what these interviews will be like. I have an offer with my current group, so they know that I'm capable of doing i-banking. Has anyone gone through the interview process of switching groups? Will it be technical in nature or more fit? I'm sure they'll ask why I want to switch out of my group and into theirs but is there anything more group specific? It's all day so I'm just curious what would be going on that would take all day. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
which groups are you transfering to and from?
by your post i assume you are a new hire with an offer, looking to speak with other groups. you should definitely be prepared for technical questions, and group specific technical questions. fit will be a large component too. group specific technical questions are fair game too
Really? I've been told that these are mostly fit interviews and shouldn't really be technical at all. logic is that since you already have an offer at the bank for one of their groups, they already know that you are competent enough to know the technical questions...wrong advice?
PeterChao I send you a PM
i think that's true to a certain extent but i could envision a scenario where the group has 1-2 spots and would probably want to give it to the guys who know technicals better, all else equal. fit is big, but don't completely ignore technical and be caught off guard if they ask, IMO. eg if you're interviewing for M&A be prepared to explain accretion/dilution
thanks, helpful advice
anyone else make the move?
Worth it changing groups? (Originally Posted: 08/27/2010)
Currently work at elite boutique. An MD that I've kept in touch with in another group has informed me of an opening. It's a sexy group that people like to go into and that is quite reputable. I'm not really digging my work that much and I have a strong interest in the group. I'm ok with my group, but I'm afraid my MD won't be happy. Just concerned about the backlash. I interned and started in the group I'm in. Also concerned about burning bridges with my group...
If you think it's a step up, or in a better direction, do it.
Regards
Which group are you in and which group are you thinking of moving to?
Whatever you do, don't jump ship without sitting your MD down first. It's your career not his. He more than likely couldn't give two shits about you as an analyst. If you cover your bases correctly when doing stuff like this, people have really short memories. Try to bait him/her into asking you about how your work is going. You could say something to this effect:
"I've been learning a ton & the experience has been great so far. However, a position opened up in XX group w/ XX. Based on what I've done so far I think XXX would be a good fit w/ my LT goals. I was wondering if you had any thoughts?" Something to that extent. Just gauge your interaction by how casual or formal your relationship is.
Unless he/she is completely narcissistic they'll pick up on your quasi request for a blessing as you could just move over either way; ergo showing respect, which is all you can do when jumping ship. This is just my two cents for whatever thats worth.
And whatever you do, don't say a word to other jr.'s. Outside of whatever convo you've had with the other MD, your MD should be the only other one to know until its a done deal.
Switching Groups - Just started as analyst at top BB (Originally Posted: 08/01/2010)
Hey Guys,
I just started at a top BB (GS/JPM/MS) as an analyst and am currently in training. I'm excited about it, but unfortunately didn't get placed in the group I preferenced during the placement process. I know there are a couple of great, prestigious groups at my bank and that mine, while it has been solid recently, is not regarded as one of them. I know a lot of people make the transition from Capital Markets to IB after a couple of years (or as soon as they can), but my question is......how common is it to actually switch groups within IBD? Can anyone give any insight to this process? I know people switch groups from Analyst to Associate, but I'm more concerned with switching while an analyst. Pretty ignorant on the subject, so I was wondering if this is frowned upon, whether you are still viewed as a second year analyst even if you spent your first year in the other group, etc? Any details would be appreciated.
bump
No one puts JPM before MS, how do u like JPM? its crap i know.
Changing groups/ banks (Originally Posted: 08/06/2010)
Hey everyone!
I have been reading this forum for a while now and feel like a lot of people here really know the industry. So I'd like to put forward my issue, and ask for your advice on how I can solve my problem. Thanks!
I am currently working in Transaction Services at a BB as a first year analyst. Due to some issues, I had to start early and I wasn't able to go through the matching process where analysts and different groups select each other. HR just put me in some random place without telling me anything about that group. They did not even tell me that I would not be able to rotate for the next two years!
The problem is that I really not like the kind of work this group does. It has nothing to do with finance and I am really not learning anything at all. To make things worse, my boss is a strange woman who just dislikes me for no reason. It's actually so bad that I feel sorry for myself each and every day. I requested HR for a group change but they yelled at me and said that I'd have to stay in my current place or just leave the bank.
My question is how should I get out of this situation. Ideally, I'd like to apply for positions at other banks but I've been told by some people that I should wait for at least one year. Is there really no way to get out without being miserable for one whole year?
Thanks so much!
Would really appreciate any advice guys!
When you're ready to transfer, go for it. Can be done after a couple months, though after a year, it's much easier. Focus on what's transferable. You will need references - work and personal related. For personal, best to choose some sort of mentor figure who can vouch for you.
I would start networking now, and seeing who is out there, and can vouch for you.
Switching Groups - How easy is it? (Originally Posted: 01/19/2007)
How easy is this? How do you go about it?
I'll be going into Consumer, but I'd rather be in Tech or M&A. When should I ask to switch? Do I need a better reason than I like those groups better and Consumer is boring to me?
My sense after a couple sell days (speaking as a fellow class of '07 analyst) is that opportunities arise to switch groups only as a 3rd year analyst -- at least at my BB. I met with someone who was in FIG who switched to Sponsors only as a 3rd year.
almost impossible to switch groups.
Agreed. I tried and it didn't work out... only soured relations.
what your alternatives are... if you are a good analyst, people like you etc and you're gonna hop chances are things will work out.
i don't know - i think its easier for them to let people go (they can brand you an as a$$hole) vs. accommodating people's every desire if threaten to quit...
If you play a game of chicken with banks you'll likely lose b/c you're just a number.
Highly dependent on the availability of an opening too.
interesting you guys say this. i've asked about intra-firm mobility at all info sessions i've been to, and they always say its very a fluid environment
And they also said during info sessions that the jerk factor is low, employee welfare, "entrepreneurial environment" blah blah. It's hard to switch groups but depends on firm (my friend at Lehman says it's relatively easier at his firm).
Intra-firm mobility is a victim of MD politics at my firm. MD of group (which you want to switch to) would not want to take you because he doesn't want to offend the MD of current group. It's considered invading another MD's turf to take associates from his group. If you really want to switch, you'd have to go to another firm. That's how some of my colleagues did it.
hey guys...does the hierarchy in an investment bank go like this??
Analyst Associate Vice President Managing Director what comes next??
Trying to transfer divisions... (Originally Posted: 08/12/2007)
Im stuck PWM at BB (which i thought would be legit coming out of college as my firm is the global leader in this area) but im finding it boring, and there really isn't a ton of work to do.
I have a good cv and i wanna get into a more competitive Alpha-male area of finance, my banker buddies say do banking, my trader buddies say do S/T...
I'm wildly ambitious and working a shit ton of hours not only doesn't scare me, it masochistically excites me.
Now to the point:
Im looking for advice as to what my best course of action for pursuing a different job while holding my current job (i have NO privacy at the office).
Short of taking "sick days" for potential interviews, etc, what is the general etiquette here?
I'd appreciate keeping the insults to a minimum, but other than that would welcome any response from the forum.
Start by leveraging your "banker buddies" and "trader buddies." Tell them to let you know about any openings and to put in a good word for you.
If you are looking to stay in the same city, you don't need to take a sick day for a 45 minute interview. Just tell co-workers you have to leave the office for "an appointment". People leave work all the time to see the doctor, dentist, etc.
is best course of action, upon calling/tming them and letting them know i'm desperate for interview opps sending a coverletter/res to them to send up the food chain?
or do i ask them to give me the name of who i shoudl send coverletter/rez to and send directly?
DYING to stop working in the most pussywhipped area of finance...
keep the help coming please.
I wouldn't say you are "desperate" to get in; that seems pathetic and you want to look confident and ready to step into a position. Give your resume to your banker and trader buddies and also ask them for contacts in HR/recruiting to talk with those guys directly and pass on your resume to them. Work both angles if at all possible.
However, if one of your buddies DOES get you an interview, make sure you don't make him look like a fool. They will be sticking their neck out there for you and you performing poorly in an interview will reflect poorly on them as well. So be sure you are ready to do this and you're not just pissed you ended up with a bad 1st job.
completely. thanks for the advice.
PS...not just pissed, put some serious thought into this.
I hold 7 and 66 (combined 65 63)...is it true that helps for S/T doesn't matter a bit for ibd?
Yeah, I believe most S/Ts are sponsored by their bank to get their series 7 and 63 so having that out of the way might be something valuable for S/T. But for IBD it's really not something they care about.
Changing groups/locations? (Originally Posted: 11/21/2010)
I'm a 1st year analyst working at a non-NYC location (think SF, Charlotte, Chicago) for a BB, though the office in which I'm working is a pretty big office -- i.e., it's not really a satellite, but more like a 2nd HQ, with several groups run out of it (I'm making this point because it's not like NY would be "stepping up" or that I've only been pitching with no execution; far from it). I spent two summers with the same group and took the FT offer. However, I am away from all my friends who are in NYC and haven't really warmed up to my current location. I really want to move to NYC ASAP.
Anybody here have any advice? The other wrinkle is that the NYC group in which I currently work isn't as strong as the one in my current location, so I'd also like to change groups if possible. I've given it a good shot here and just am not happy, and I'd like to get out in the next few months (before I have to start thinking about renewing a lease for another year). Lots of people move around at my bank; however, I feel that my relatively long history with the group makes this look strange. The gist is, I don't want to end up out on my ass if I talk to the group head and he takes it the wrong way. On the other hand, the more optimistic part of me likes to think that since my group clearly likes me, they'd rather have me somewhere else at the firm than not at all, because I would start looking for jobs elsewhere if I get shut down.
WF or BAML?
WF is actually HQ'ed in Charlotte, so I don't think it's them... I'd go with BAML
could be ubs
Definitely BAML, no other employee would mention Charlotte in the same sentence as Chicago or SF as a Finance city.
Or, I want to make it unclear where I work and throwing Charlotte in there does exactly that...who knows? Where I work isn't the point anyways. I'm looking for constructive advice or first-hand experiences.
^Exactly.
The point is, no other person would even THINK about charlotte. I don't even know what state it's in. the fact u mentioned it is obvious.
Again, how about the kind of person who wants to make it not obvious where he works? I don't need to work at BAML to realize that it's a huge-ass bank with major operations in Charlotte and throw it into the mix of cities in which I may or may not work. I should've said London while I was at it in order to get Barclays on people's minds, too.
But seriously, can someone here offer anything constructive?
Transferring Divisions (Originally Posted: 01/20/2008)
I signed with a top BB with S&T, but really want to get into IBD. When shuold I talk about transferring? once I'm in & working or before I start official work? I want to make the switch before work starts.. is that possible?
No. It's probably not possible. Unless you are signed on for a Summer Analyst position, in which case most banks will let you at least interview with IBD groups, assuming you get an offer for your first line of work.
The interview process between S&T and IBD are completely different, especially at BB's. In my opinion, I'd like to say that a good number of kids who got S&T jobs probably could not get IBD ones.
I'd at least wait it out for a year in S&T and try to find some internal job postings, if you want to switch that badly.
HS- why doy ou say that kids who got S&T jobs probably could not get into IBD?
Is it because IBD has more competition, requires more technicals mastered, or? I have an idea of the amount of technicals you need to know for IBD past first round..what does S&T past first round consists of?
Maybe I should start a new thread on this..
In my experience, the interviews for IBD were a lot more rigorous than they were for S&T. Much more mentally draining for IBD interviews. There are more technicals in IBD interviews whereas in S&T, I mostly got questions with the exception of a few bond and market view questions. They definitely feel different; in IBD, I felt like I was running a marathon, and in S&T it was much more rapid fire and sprint-like.
That being said, it's a very different personality and skillset for kids who go into S&T vs. IBD.
One... are you FT Analyst or FT non-Analyst? If you are a FT analyst, your SOL for the stint of your contract. That's just the way the game is played.
If you're a non-analyst, you should wait at least 9 months before you even consider looking to move, esp since you are just starting with the firm. After the 9 months, you should start to look across the firm for ops to move into the IBD area you want to be in. Once you hit the year mark, I would talk to your bosses about making the move and see if they support you in the jump. That is a key component to this whole process is having the support to jump to another area.
Can changing groups burn bridges? (Originally Posted: 06/28/2007)
Hello. So this is my situation. I was a summer last year at a top bank. At the end, i received a generalist offer, and I chose to came back. I am planning on attending on networking events my bank has to offer and I would like to switch groups, for various reasons. However, my old group is already going all out after me, taking me to dinner, for drinks etc.) and several VP's and one MD all believe that I m coming back 100%. I have told them I am planning on attending the events and they just laugh saying "yeah yeah, we know you have to. don't worry, you are still coming back". So, what do you think I should do? Is switching groups going to be a huge slap in the face and burning bridges? or should I go for it?
Two things:
If they want you so bad, you must be good, and if you're good, they should be expecting that you will shop around - there is NO loyalty in this business. - You have to be frank with them though.
At the end of the day, if they don't get you, they'll get someone else who will end up being just as good. Remember, we're talking 1st year analysts here and not rainmakers. We're all dispensabl;e as far as the bank is concerned.
So don't worry - be frank with them, and do what's best for you.
Good luck.
"Living the dream 24/7 on http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"
maybe you'll burn some bridges. actually, you almost definitely will. but two things.
1)provided you don't want to work in that group who cares. 2)they'll forget all about it in a year or so anyway. analysts arent important enough to bear a grudge.
Warning: I'm not in the industry yet
However, it seems logical to me that the relationships you will build by working in a group that you enjoy (and i'm assuming a more recognized group, as most people wouldn't opt to move down in "group rankings") will offset any bridges that you would burn.
Nice reasoning, do the LSAT and go to law school.
classic
How difficult is it to transfer from one department to another? (Originally Posted: 04/27/2007)
I am a sophomore who interns at a BB in their private wealth management group. I have been working there since January 2007 and made some great relationships with many people throughout the company including those in HR. So, I am hoping my contacts there would be friendly enough to help me get some experience in another area of the firm.
I am going to continue my internship there this summer and study abroad at LSE for a month. However, I would like to work in another department related to corporate finance part time next fall semester during school. I want to launch a career in investment banking and understand that pwm is very looked down upon. How hard do you think changing to a department like this would be? Has anyone here ever done it?
PWM isn't looked down upon, I don't know where you get that from... It's just unrelated to banking in terms of the work involved. I met two bankers recently, who after being 3rd-yr associates have gone on to PWM.
Now in terms of landing a gig in IBD after a PWM internship, it has been done MANY times. Trust me. You need to concentrate on getting interviews, the more, the better. Have something to show for yourself, gain experience, and you will have as good a shot as any to land an offer.
I agree, you've probably been reading this thread for a while and are basing that off the opinions of the many college students that post on here. PWM, is not looked down upon, it's just different from IBD.
Now that you have your foot in the BB, you have to work harder to network. Do not rely on your manager to get you IBD contacts, I'm pretty sure you can do this yourself. Use your company's directory, it's really not hard to find out who the recruiters for IBD are. Actually, depending on which bank you're at, I can tell you who the recruiters are. Do you know any interns working in IBD? They can def help you and probably put in a good word. It'd be pretty difficult to be there for a summer and not run into anyone in IBD, (unless they're in a diff building). You have to take initiative, which is a quality looked highly upon in IBD.
if people that work in PWM department in a BB would have any leverage in getting someone an interview in IBD-analyst level that is. Do they work together? Have contact or anything like that?
Although PWM isn't looked down upon, a transfer from pwm to ibd is difficult to do. Not to say that it hasn't been done and that it's not possible, but if every pwm candidate that wanted to go into ibd could do it, then everyone would just interview for pwm first and then go to ibd. That said, as monkeypoker and gq have pointed out, being at the bb gives you some advantage by allowing you to network. As far as experience goes, however, pwm still isn't that relevant, so you'd still have to be a strong candidate to transfer, in which case you would most likely have made it anyway (granted that you got the interview w/o pwm).
Why do some of you insist on giving false advice?
When people ask whether or not PWM is looked down upon, they aren't asking whether those in PWM are decent, hard working Americans, just like everyone else, some are, some arent
but in terms of prestige, PWM is clearly on a significantly lower tear than IBD, and S&T as well. There are some top PWM people who manage hundreds of millions of dollars, and they do well. But overall, PWM is a very middle class job. However, as a sophomore, its one of the best places to work before you try for an IBD internship junior year.
Thanks for all of the replies. I will try harder to find more people working in the ibd and contact/network with them. Thanks for the support.
"PWM is clearly on a significantly lower tear".
OBVIOUSLY someone to listen to.
Transferring within groups (Originally Posted: 11/04/2009)
Say you do S&T at a BB but you don't like the group you are put in (or are put on a sales desk). How easy is it to switch groups and or switch job from sales to trading? how do they know who gets sales and who gets trading?
if you are female and hot, you get sales
i think i basically got the job....but i have no idea abt fx or sales......
i think i basically got the job....but i have no idea abt fx or sales......
what about from ER to S&T, or ER to another function (ie similar industry group on the banking side)?
If your a huge fag then your fucked....Better shape up
i switched but had a great rep. not hard to do if very eearly in your career
lol boutique banker, touched a nerve? too bad ur at a shitty boutique but please gtfo of my thread as i'm asking about BB'S.. you know.. BULGE BRACKETS.. you know.. RESPECTABLE banks? You have no place here so take your boutique making 20k a year bonus and get out lol.
By the way, about boutiques and their bonuses, a friend of mine signed with a boutique, getting a guaranteed bonus of ~50K, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.
If I'm a girl and am applying for S&T with the hopes of getting trading, will I get stuck in sales or would a guy get trading over me? Also my contacts are in sales - they know I'm interested in trading, although I haven't said it because I think it would be somewhat brash given how helpful they've been - but will this only make the hiring people lean more towards hiring me for sales even if I express interest in trading while applying?
ultra - my answer to you would be, it depends a great deal on where there are slots available, but beyond that, its all networking. It should be very easy if you're stellar in performance (wherever you are), early in your career, and network well; I think a good word from someone well-placed could help you overcome getting stuck at a desk you don't want even if you were placed there during internship for a very specific reason - ie they thought you'd do better there than somewhere else that you'd wanted.
Also I second ultra's question on how do they know/determine where they put you, sales or trading?
I know a few women in trading and I definitely don't think just because you're a female you'll be put into sales. A good female friend of mine works at JPM's proprietary trading desk. Another female I know at JPM works with quants there. Sure finance is a predominantly male culture but above all trading is about making money. If you can make money, you'll succeed as a trader regardless of whether you're a male or female.
you will def. get sales. i haven't seen a single female trader at a BB yet and only the top quant ppl are doing trading, usually 90% caucasian and 10% indian/asian males.
they know who gets trading based on your training. once u accept S&T, they do training at the office. make sure you are smart and know what you're doing. PREP HARD and be very very very very vocal. If not, most def. a guy will trade rather than you.
what bb are you talking about?
we have 3 on my desk and 1 head is a female as well as many other women around the floor.
what do you do? and where did you even see a trader? all your post are about ML and GS ops... have you even stepped foot on a trade desk?
I know the racial breakdown - most of the very top traders are also caucasian or indian or jewish, but I thought that the number of women in trading was getting better...
what goes on in training, how can I be best prepared for it? can you detail how the sales v trading/desks are differentiated and picked out - based on performance, contacts, what? What do you mean by be vocal - shouldn't I keep my mouth shut since I'm the new kid?
I always had the impression that IB was much more political than trading - but is it a different game for me since I'm an extremely small minority in trading as a female?
okay thanks monty and LRAM!
can anyone detail how they decide who is more suited for sales v trading though?
I could not. They sit next to me but no clue how they get placed there.
apparently i know more than both u guys, let m ehelp you NOOBS
first you get an offer.. then you pick a location. training starts. training for S&T isn't like banking... its more of a test. you go through this and they select the traders from the sales. ask anyone in S&T. and by be vocal I mean make sure people know what you want to do and what you're passionate about, such as trading. make sure you let your skills match trading rather than sales.
sure you do bud.
sternmasta since you know so much, what is this trading test?
It is decided based upon background (quant heavy major v not, etc.)/ percieved strengths & skillset (more outgoing, competitive, sociable etc)/ and which desk wants you the most and thinks you'll fit in well (if your S&T program does a rotational post the classroom trading, I'm not sure they all do).
There are more women in Sales than in trading but being female does not necessarily ean you will be put in sales. Being hot and female is another story all together though.... hey, just be happy they don't stick you in HR.
i have many alums who have been through this process. being a female definitely hurts. and being hot is not exactly good either as they rather have you do sales than risk losing billions as a trader.
training is like IB but it's more like a month long test where they are always monitoring you and gauging your interest, personality, as well as how well you do on the multiple "quizzes" that are given after lectures and events. obviously do well and be WELL-LIKED by the trading desks rather than be well-liked by the sales desks.
a strong "in" with a particular desk (VP/MD) or PAST TRADING experience will be helpful in getting you pulled onto their desk. If not, then you prob just end up in sales or even a crapppy desk.
sure you do kid
I'm just curious why sales gets a bad wrap around here? If I remember correctly, some of the top sales guys in equities at Citi were given 2 year guarantees of about $3M (WSJ Article). That's not too shabby for wining and dining clients all week.
ALL WHILE WORKING IN OPS LAST SUMMER
"I'm just curious why sales gets a bad wrap around here? If I remember correctly, some of the top sales guys in equities at Citi were given 2 year guarantees of about $3M (WSJ Article)."
And the luckiest prop trader prob made tens of millions. Probably more BB traders made more than 3M. What is your point?
"That's not too shabby for wining and dining clients all week."
Do you know even know what sales does?
stern your comments are obviously sexist/irrational as monty has pointed out several times, but just to humor you, I don't think sales analysts get so much (if any?) face time with clients or do anything particularly image oriented that would necessitate that hot women automatically end up on sales desks without getting a fair chance for anywhere else
plus the whole fitting in with the desk thing is somewhat slanted to begin with since woman can't fit into the frat vibe and beyond that, for both guys and girls, whoever you click with is pretty much a crapshoot
every bank is different
e.g. gs - three summer rotations, then you get hired to a desk as analyst citi - for analyst, two rotations, 1 yr each jpm - hired to desk
part of it is asking for it in the first place (explicitly - 'this is the only thing i could do' not 'oh i might like it better but i don't know yet'), and part of it is offering a compelling reason to get it ...
like everything in life, you have to go for it above and beyond what mediocrity requires ... how would you convince someone to take a chance on you? by perhaps being well versed in the material / state of the market, striking up a relationship by visiting the floor a lot and asking to watch, and bringing up the occasional intelligent question? maybe.
women on the trading floor -- yes it's harder than it should be, but it's definitely possible. also, a guess -- you will see a push to get women into trading in the next 10 years ... it's a macho culture no doubt, but research says that women (at least in pa's) tend to transact less / have less overconfidence... like any business portfolio, there's value in having diversity on a trading floor ... you will have to counter a lot of perceptions about quant ability but if you really want it, then go for it.
at gs (internship anyways), they rotate everyone sales and trading in 1 group on a bunch of desks...and they DO give you weekly quizzes, like all other summer internships, the internship is basically a trial.. but s&t is a lot more blatant... the quizzes can be pen and paper or on a white board in a group..
at a bb, lets face it.. as an analyst... you probably will not be having a p/l attached to your name, and everyone is basically doing the same job thats pretty easy and not rocket science... so its really hard to differentiate yourself hence the politics part..
sternmaster is also right in the fact that if your an attractive woman...they will most likely put you in HR or sales.. trust me sounds silly or not even possible but its the real world.. if i had to guess woman on the trading floor... i think a good guess would be 5 or 10%.. as someone stated above.. it will probably change going forward and that number will get higher..oh and by the way.. that 5 or 10% of woman on the floor.. whether by nature or thats is how the floor made them... they lost most if not everything that made them a woman in their personality..it sounds like im joking or trolling but im serious..
to make the switch from sales to trading?... depending on where you are...Im assuming its like GS, where after your first year... you can interview for a transition to any group planned by the end of your second year..if you get good marks on your reviews, you can probably go anywhere you want... but then again.. the more popular the group.. the stricter they can be on review scores.. that whole supply/demand logic we all slept through as freshmen so long ago..just get along with everyone... project that your smart.. and youll be given any opportunity you want..just dont go walking into your group on day 1 and be like hi id like to move to that group.. that wont looked good upon..how do i know this by fact? managers think in the mindset.. how do you know you want to move there and not in this group already in 1 day, month ect...
source: experience
good luck!
changing graduate Program at one BB to another one year in? (Originally Posted: 08/16/2014)
I'm currently in an Ops graduate scheme (its more MO then BO) at a BB. I went to a target school with top grades and extracurriculars. Was wondering it its possible for me to apply for FO graduate schemes at other banks and leave after one year in my current scheme. (never applied for any FO positions before, was given some real shitty advice). if I do this would my current bank find out by any chance? btw its S&T i want to go for (sick of just settling trades)
bump
bump
Switching desks in NYC (Originally Posted: 03/01/2013)
out of:
FX Derivatives trader Fixed income Derivatives trader Equity Derivatives trader
which one will best transition into
Commodities Derivatives Trader
Initial reaction says FX Derivs due to the overlap in Macro nature of products.
Thanks rpc, anyone else would like to contribute?
Fixed income or FX, but it's so marginal you shouldn't care.
FX, commodity-related equity, or inflation-linked fixed income. If you're deciding where to begin your career go where you like the people and there is a high ratio of senior / junior staff.
would you care to explain why? thx
FX will overlap with macro driven commodities such as crude oil, base and precious metals. Commodity-related equity(e.g. miners, refiners, MLPs) will obviously overlap with commodities. Inflation-linked bonds will be impacted by forecasts of inflation, including commodity-price cost-push inflation.
If you are switching early in your career, e.g. 2 years or less, you will be judged more on pure analytical ability and work ethic as no one will expect you to be an expert so early in your career. Given that you'll be spending 10-12 hours a day working with the people on your desk, it's important to like the people. Desks with a high ratio of senior / junior staff will have more experienced people to learn from and less competition to get trading experience if a senior trader leaves or is just off 2 weeks on vacation.
FX
How to move within Bank (internally)? (Originally Posted: 03/01/2012)
Hey guys,
I spent my last summer at a mid-sized bank doing back-office operations-related stuff. Instead of returning to the same position/department this upcoming summer, I was thinking about moving within the firm, perhaps to a more analysis-related (still middle/back office) position. How do you guys suggest approaching this? Should I ask my old manager for help/referrals? Not sure how open he will to the idea of me trying to move to a (better) division. I also don't want to burn down the bridge that is my old job, in case I don't find anything else...
Alternatively, I could start emailing people in other divisions to inquire about opportunities. To avoid emailing multiple people in the same department, should I focus on the senior people or the lower analyst level? Also, is emailing the head of a division a bad idea?
I really appreciate any input you guys have.
If you're a returning summer analyst, it's a little late. You needed to have broached that topic a bit earlier, hopefully before or during the recruiting cycle. Now that banks have wrapped up their recruiting, it's almost impossible for you to convince someone that you should get a shot to move given that they've already extended offers to everyone they want for the summer in each division.
You can try over the summer to network with people in that division to get a FT offer, but for the summer, it's late.
Thanks for the reply A Posse Ad Esse. This is for a summer intern position, not front office SA. Recruiting for these positions will most likely take place over the next month or so. I know because it was when I was hired last year. That being said, how do you suggest I approach this?
Contact one of the higher ups in the division you would like to work in and ask them how you would go about getting an interview with them.
Not sure about the HR route.. different banks work different with HR. Some are sensitive to movement within the bank, some aren't.
Use the elevator.
Oh. In that case, if you're trying to move divisions across the back/middle office, I have no experience with their recruiting process so I can't offer much advice I'm afraid. I say networking is your best bet, cliche as it sounds.
delete
Tough to say, but truthfully they might not be too interested in you if you've been waiting to hear back for almost four months.
Ea dolorem cupiditate error a omnis dolor quis. Omnis pariatur a et a delectus.
Architecto et tenetur vel qui hic. Molestiae corrupti similique tempora culpa ipsum quia est. Quasi accusamus earum nemo animi numquam. Fugit inventore corrupti qui minus. Quam quis ut laborum repellat fugiat esse sit.
Veritatis beatae labore eos non rem odio at. Culpa tempora voluptatem quos. Ex sint iste rem et voluptatem.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Et alias laborum cumque at aut voluptatem. Dolorum atque tempore esse aut expedita odit. Explicabo autem inventore fugiat architecto aut repellendus suscipit nisi.
Et recusandae expedita facilis ab libero eius sunt. Nostrum rerum officia quam vero consequuntur facilis. Nam deleniti aperiam nesciunt illo voluptas optio consequatur.
Est minus quia voluptas autem. Consequatur asperiores molestias repudiandae non. Aut officiis eligendi id animi magnam.
Ipsa expedita quia voluptatem iusto quis. Voluptas eos perferendis placeat ab sit. Sed modi a praesentium ut temporibus eius saepe.
Ea voluptas voluptatem vitae nihil aspernatur non magni. Eveniet eaque placeat ea vel quidem repellat. Earum magnam cum nisi distinctio quaerat debitis eum.
Optio eveniet voluptate rerum quo dignissimos assumenda. Quia maiores velit eligendi est in temporibus. Similique dolorem recusandae odio voluptates dolorem laudantium exercitationem. Non omnis quam tempore dolor non rerum. Cupiditate reprehenderit et enim consequuntur recusandae. Aut autem molestiae necessitatibus et molestias eos. Voluptas occaecati doloremque aut sint accusantium labore perferendis nihil.
Perferendis sed ea voluptatibus exercitationem labore autem et. Omnis eligendi et quis iusto. Dolore beatae ducimus a quas doloribus.
Voluptas hic atque dolorum ad libero facilis. Dolor dolor recusandae aperiam doloremque placeat non. Maxime eum excepturi rem delectus. Sit sed qui exercitationem corrupti sit. Cupiditate est sed maiores quia. Ut recusandae rerum est quisquam molestiae.
Consectetur est quod illo repellat. Commodi ut facilis possimus qui. Id repudiandae molestiae quia sunt. Sit in tenetur laudantium.
Rem nemo asperiores neque quam. Sunt voluptas aut nobis nostrum. Ab et maxime quam aliquam. Aliquam porro iusto veniam amet. Perspiciatis sequi neque aut est repellendus eaque quae. Consequatur soluta atque in quas.
Dolorem asperiores velit sapiente placeat. Est commodi facilis vel. Dignissimos omnis eum veniam consequuntur inventore. Earum aut qui aut explicabo fugiat officia. Cum perspiciatis ut similique ut voluptas est. Corrupti distinctio amet totam unde atque facere.
Nam molestias est consequatur voluptas impedit ducimus qui. Quo rem ut reprehenderit temporibus perferendis excepturi. Dolor qui adipisci nam maxime. Neque quia molestiae consequatur ut velit ipsum labore. Qui cumque dolor neque rerum itaque quam et. Nihil quia tempora ab culpa.
Vel eius reprehenderit corporis accusamus. Officiis dolor et rem rerum aut quia. Iure tempore nulla voluptas laudantium. Nisi et optio dicta nemo omnis provident et tempore. Reiciendis id itaque omnis natus qui ipsam.
Voluptas est accusamus voluptas enim ut numquam quia deleniti. Eligendi quasi molestiae eos et aut dolor a. Sed consequuntur velit voluptas ex dolorem ut. Delectus doloribus facere dolor blanditiis sit omnis aut modi.
Non doloremque et et eos fuga. Omnis quod nostrum et corrupti. Qui quae aut pariatur sunt itaque itaque at. Modi iste cum laborum quia qui culpa asperiores eligendi. Eligendi inventore ut minima quas praesentium a vel incidunt.
Ex excepturi et doloremque ipsum eligendi. Deserunt iste illum cupiditate.