Help...bleak future. Stay for a 5th year of college?
I'm not sure what to do --I'm a senior recruiting for IBD at my university (top ivy) but so far haven't gotten anywhere...mainly because I have a low GPA (3.0). I do have solid work experience at a BB (that no longer exists therefore I can't go back) in investment management, not IBD. Should I settle for a random obscure place or should I stay for another year and try for IBD at a BB? I could possibly go to a no-name boutique for a summer internship and then recruit full time next year as a 5th year too. How is being a 5th year senior perceived??
I know I'm good enough for IBD at a BB, and I've made several final rounds already, only to be cut ironically because they are still not comfortable with my low GPA which is mainly due to freshman and sophomore year.
What do you guys think I should do to maximize my chances of getting into IBD at a BB or top boutique? I feel like I speak for a lot of class of 2009 kids who are facing a tough job market and don't necessarily want to settle.
Thanks - I really appreciate your input!
Once you get the interview, your GPA is a non-issue. Why would they let you through to final rounds and not just cut you at round 1 or not give you an interview at all if they were concerned about your GPA?
BB or top boutique with a 3.0? Hate to rain on your parade but it's time to face reality. There are kids I know with 3.8 GPA's and BB IBD summer work experience who aren't even landing interviews this year.
Would recommend against staying for a 5th year - concerns include whether things get even uglier than they are currently. Then you'd be looking at 40K+ down the drain, and comparatively bleaker recruiting prospects. Advice would be to bite the bullet and aim for boutiques that quite Evercore or Greenhill. Even the smaller ones are being bombarded with resumes from experienced bankers nowadays though...so if you're dead set on IBD at a top firm as a long-term option, then plan on getting an MBA.
Yea no offense - at a top ivy your competition is pretty intense. I would start looking around at lower level boutiques and MM banks (if you dare), since I think people are being too confident with the number of people the BBs are taking.
Matchbox, not quite sure what the "if you dare" comment implies. Either way, jam121, I would strongly advise against delaying your graduation. There are very few, if any, situations where this makes logical sense. I don't believe waiting for an improved job market is one of them. Besides, there are many cheaper, far more interesting paths you could pursue...
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
Comp - I was being sarcastic, with regards to the fact that a lot of people don't apply to MM banks, thinking they are subpar experiences or something.
Wasn't ragging on them, as I in fact interned at one and had a great experience....sorry if it came off the wrong way.
i suggest that you do not delay graduation. Just because you are unable to get into banking does not mean the end of the world.
Besides, getting into a corporate is a whole lot safer than going to a BB in this environment. I suggest getting a full time job (corp fin/consulting/something with a good name). You can be a lot more certain that your job will be there when you graduate compared to some BB rescinding your offer.
So what I would recommend you do is the following if banking/PE/HF is ur end goal, get into a corp fin/consulting program, bust ur ass for a few years while networking, get a CFA, Series 7&63, if an opportunity comes along in the next year to two years with a good bank or decent private equity fund - take it, otherwise go to bschool after 3-4 years (which will be competitive but ur coming from an Ivy) and then take it from there.
You don't want to be in the position where you bust ur ass to get into Wall Street and once that goes bust, your left without a job and have to start the process all over again.
I don't understand why consulting is being considered this safety valve for all the prospective bankers out there. I know for a fact that recruiting numbers are down (for some top firms, significantly so). Have things changed in the past couple of years where consulting is now that much easier to get into? Or are prospective bankers just being delusional?
Also, GPA is much more important for consulting interviews than banking.
I agree. consulting is just as hard, if not harder to get into.
I think most seniors are just accepting the reality of the job market and taking what they can. I think the plan is to get an MBA a few years from now and try again when the economy is back up.
good luck!
=== http://bankertimes.com investment banking news
My thoughts exactly.
With my career center, most consulting firms have between a 3.3-3.5 minimum GPA requirement while the BB's have a lot of 3.0 minimums (a few don't even have minimum requirements).
And like others said, once you get the interview, your GPA goes out the window.
ideating - prospective bankers being delusional, thinking they can get into any career easily. its what they have to do from shitting their pants in this economy.
"There is only one bottom line -- how much money you make."
Ah, the consulting shoulder-chip: always so overt. This is why you don't want to go in that direction...
What shoulder-chip? It's a legitimate question.
I recognize that if I had gone the banking route I would have built a different skill-set, had a different experience, different bonus, go down the rest of the list. At my school, consulting was marginally harder to get than banking but it was so close as to be essentially equal.
b2, I have enough banker friends to jokingly debate consulting vs. banking, I don't need to come on here and do it with a bunch of bankers who take themselves too seriously. Some perceived prestige rankings trumped up by a bunch of over medicated analysts would dictate that bulge bracket banking is the pinnacle of difficulty and the toughest job to get into - anyone who has gone through the grind of on-campus recruiting knows better.
To clarify, I'm not saying consulting is better or worse than banking. Just saying that it's unrealistic to think of it as some safety job that is in desperate need for labor supply.
Matchbox -- I misread your statement, thanks for the clarification. I certainly agree !
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
You are unlikely to benefit from a 5th year in undergrad school. What will you learn that will make you more attractive in IB? If you raise your GPA by some small amount, it will not make as big a difference as getting good experience, preferably followed by an MBA, assuming you have learned a lesson and perform better in b-school than you say you did in undergrad school.
Ignore comments driven by chest-thumping "we are the champions" posters. They most likely are at too low a level in any firm, especially BB, to influence whether you later will be hired at an associate level. On the other hand, take into account that you will be competing against many people who can say everything you can say but have the advantage of better credentials. That matters because when we hire, we see a couple of dozen applicants who have similarly superior credentials, so our task as busy people and cognitive misers is to find anything that knocks out some of them. Your GPA did that to you, even post-interview, and your choice of what you do for the next few years could do the same.
So, wherever you go (boutique, consulting, etc.), go to the best in that field so you won't have to make any more excuses of the "even though the firm has a middling reputation, it really is a strong place in which I had the opportunity to learn more than I would have at a top-tier BB." We hear that all the time and either don't believe or care about it. When you get there, do all you can to be put on projects with at least the following attributes: (1) you did something significant, beyond the call of Excel; (2) you can describe precisely what you did; and (3) what you did is similar, if not in scale or sophistication, at least in type, as you would do at a BB or whatever your goal is.
Be realistic but not too realistic. This is a tough business for anyone who lacks either realism or the guts to go for more than a realistic self-appraisal would encourage.
GPA can certainly help you earn a 1st round interview, however after that its all about your ability to sell yourself & click with the interviewer and answer tech questions...I know plenty of analysts who have far sub-ivy league degrees and have made it into banking...keep in mind that your resume is simply a "cover" of a book.
hmmm....wat would your guys answer be if my goal was to transition to S&T by staying a fifth year? My problem right now is I'm getting every single banking/PE-type interview under the sun, but I"m not getting a damn thing for S&T even from places like BNP Paribas or BMO.
From the perspective of banking recruiting, it depends on experience however. A guy who delayed grad a year bc he could not get a BB FT offer is going to KILL internship recruiting the next year bc he'll be slaughtering juniors who don't know wtf is up. From a recruiting perspective, he's no different than a guy who did a sophomore rotational program. This is assuming social competence and interview skills.
BB IM experience...hard to tell...have to know more about what type of IM u did.
Should I stay another year? (Originally Posted: 01/09/2014)
I am a fourth year econ student at a non-target UC, my GPA isn't spectacular (~3.0), and I did not have the opportunity to work an internship during my college career. I was a transfer student and didn't really know what I wanted to do when I was in community college. Recently I've taken a few finance classes, joined our campus finance group and realized I am very interested and passionate about the industry. Ive been reading everything finance related I can get my hands on, and have decided I want to go into IB or AM. I have just started networking and cold calling/emailing people but I feel like I am seriously behind, and feel I'm going to have a hard time getting a FT offer. My question is, should I stay for another year in school? The way I'm looking at it now is if I stay Ill have to take out another 7k in loans, but it will give me the ability to: 1) Find an internship this summer and network more for graduation at the end of the next school year 2) Take more classes and raise my GPA and 3) Give me another year to learn as much as I can about finance. I'm still planning on setting up as many info interviews as I can in hopes of getting an interview and an ultimately a FT offer or even an internship offer that could turn into a FT offer, but what do you guys think about staying another year to try and better my chances?
Delaying graduation isn't a dealbreaker. You can do this fairly easily. Simply write "Class of 2015" on your resume, or "01/2015" if you prefer listing the month to match the format used most commonly in the work experience section (mm/yyyy).
As long as you aren't applying to a bank that you've already interviewed with in the past, you are fine. Firms who receive your application for the first time won't be aware when you started college or how old you are; to them, you just look like all the other kids applying as rising seniors. As long you aren't applying to a firm where you networked with people (i.e. people reviewing resumes would go "Didn't this kid talk to me last year looking for a summer job?"), a graduation date change isn't a problem at all.
Frankly put, you won't have much chance to change your grades. Your GPA now will be what you apply to internships for this coming summer with. Your only chance is to try to improve it for the full-time hiring process, and that would only be one semester's worth of grades (spring 2014 semester, because your fall 2014/fifth semester grades won't be on your transcript when you're recruiting).
If I were you, I would look into your school's policy on retaking classes; if your school is one that lets you replace the original grade with the new grade (not all schools allow this, mine didn't), I would change all the classes you originally registered for spring 2014 to the classes you got the worst grades in before. If you got all A's this semester, you could markedly improve your GPA in time for full-time recruiting.
As for internships, you have already missed the boat for most formal internship recruiting processes; pretty much all the deadlines for the BBs and elite boutiques have passed. You need to get whatever internship you can this summer. If it's BB IBD, great, gun for the full-time offer. If it isn't an internship you'd like to convert to full-time, you need to prepare for full-time recruiting (which will happen August-October of 2014 for a start date in summer 2015).
I'm not going to go into detail on how to hustle as a non-target and push for the best internship you can, there are more than enough threads discussing that already. The last thing I'll say is that you don't need to register for a full year. You only need a fifth semester, not a full year. That extra semester will delay your graduation and make you eligible for internship recruiting without forcing you to carry the cost of a full extra year. And, in that sixth semester when you aren't taking classes, you can get an off-cycle internship or a random job and just earn cash.
Good luck, hope this helps.
Taking an extra year (Originally Posted: 08/14/2015)
Hello everyone,
I am a rising senior at a target school and am considering taking an extra year to graduate. The benefits of this would be as follows, provided I do well academically:
Extra tuition fees notwithstanding (won't be a problem financially), what do you think of this option? I have decided I would like to go into consulting/banking or something related to economics and from what I've read on this forum, firms seem to desire around a 3.8 GPA so I'm not sure if this would be worth it as the maximum GPA I could obtain is a 3.6 (though I could potentially have a better major GPA and last-two-years GPA). Also, I'm not sure how firms would view taking an extra year to graduate. I was overall unfocused and not sure what I wanted to do in my first few years of college; the extra year would demonstrate an upward trend in grades over a period of two years. I am also considering business school in the future, so the GPA boost may be beneficial for that as well.
Essentially the choice is between: 1. On-time graduation: unviable-for-jobs major, 3.4-3.5 cumulative GPA at graduation, poor major GPA, graduated in 4-4.5 years, little work experience 2. With extra year: econ major, 3.5-3.6 cumulative GPA, even higher major and last-two-years GPA (think 3.7-3.8 if I do well), graduated in 5 years, more job/internship experience, one more year spent in school not making money
So I would like to know: 1. Is it worth it? (Consider increased chances for jobs and business school - for example, the average GPA at Wharton is 3.6) 2. How will consulting firms view it?
Assume in your answers that I do well in future classes and am indeed able to raise my GPA to the mentioned value of 3.6; I am seeking advice on this hypothetical situation based on the best-case scenario to determine if this option would be remotely worth it.
Thank you for your feedback.
What is your current major?
Psychology.
.
If cost isn't a factor, go for it.
staying a 5th year frowned upon (Originally Posted: 03/19/2011)
.
Just write expected graduation 201x. They will only think you are penultimate.
I don't think they can tell as long as you don't put high school and/or college entrance year on your resume.
this.
Don't worry about it. I know a lot of people who have done this. Just don't take like 1-2 classes each semester. Pick up a major or 2 minors.
I've had 2 interviews with BBs for FO positions and 1 with a boutique for a research position. NONE of them asked me why I went to school for 5 years. Then again, I did do a Major and a Minor.
I've met a lot of double majors from Haas who took some extra time.
i spent a 5th year because of a late major change. nobody asked me when i interviewed at bb.
No they don't.
No, it doesnt matter. A bunch of friends stayed extra and placed fine. Just have a reasonable explanation...not I was lazy and partied too hard so I failed classes
Staying an extra year of undergrad? (Originally Posted: 01/10/2013)
I am a second semester senior who got into med school, but has decided it is not worth it and wants to get into finance. Would it be a good idea to stay an extra year of undergrad to get internships/build up resume or is that looked down upon?
If you are sure you want finance, I would stay and try to get an internship... or graduate and get an internship
Stay an extra year and minor in finance.
OR
Do a Master's program in finance
Is it better to get a masters program in finance or to stay an extra year in undergrad? I have a high GPA at a top 20 school but no finance experience.
I would probably say neither. If you have a good GPA, start to find your alumni on the street and reach out.
if you think you can easily make it, stay an extra year if you think you can make it in with some hard work and time, graduate and get an internship if you think it's a long shot, do an msf
sadly, how likely it is you get in depend smostly on whether you got to a target, semi-target, or non-target
I don't know if staying an extra year in undergrad ever makes much sense. You risk just killing a year with no real benefit. At this point some internships have already closed but if you could get a summer internship staying an extra year you could probably get one graduating also.
Take the plunge, graduate. Hell, entering the Peace Core or teaching little kids in Thailand might well be better than staying an extra year and ending up with very similar paper credentials to what you would already have. And you would have more fun!
Network, try very hard to get a post-graduate internship, network more, if you can't find anything then do an MFin.
Is it worth me to pay 40K just for keeping me as a student to find a job in ib (both US or Hong Kong)? (Originally Posted: 03/01/2017)
I am wondering if I should graduate this summer or take a extension for one more semester in order to get another round for recruiting. I studied at a top 30 school for undergrad and currently at an ivy league school for a master of engineering degree (which means I am not in the target group). And what I've learnt from last fall is right now most banks only hire their summer interns. I just don’t know if it worth to pay another 40k dollars to just keep me as a student. Does it help a lot? Can I find a ib job either in HK or US after leaving school? Thanks for sharing any advice or experiences.
Hard to say, don't know enough on your situation.
But if you are not networking, don't even bother. Any job is about networking.
I am still calling people recently... So from what I experienced is that many program don't accept master student as a candidate and I am afraid if I will face similar situation since I will no longer be a student which is a requirement for many programs.
Firstly, yes, if you are looking for an investment banking job (not sales and trading or other divisions under a certain investment bank), probably you have around zero chance to get into it, just because you have already been a master student.
Secondly, for Hong Kong, you still have chance. Nowadays around 50% of the summer analysts class at BB (the number may change depending on which BB it is) are master students with a broad range of majors. So do not worry too much about your degree if you are going to land a job in Hong Kong.
Lastly, most full-time analysts, no matter in U.S. or Hong Kong, are converted from summer analysts. Hence, most likely you should first get a summer internship at a BB. Most BB requires you to be a penultimate year student, no matter whether your are an undergrad or grad student. There are few BB allow final year student to be considered for their summer analyst. You can connect with your alumni through linkedin and ask them.
Network and try to get a summer internship, having M&A experience will help you. Crush it and get FT there and then think about how to lateral. If you can't then delaying your graduation might give you more time but it must be used in a smart way.
Extra year? (advice please) (Originally Posted: 07/19/2007)
Is it worth it to spend another year at a target to get a Masters in Financial Engineering? That is, would it be better to go directly to an analyst role after four years, or would it be better to wait a year and walk out with a masters as well. Also, what real help does a masters that isn't an mba provide in the banking world?
if your gonna do ibanking and already have an offer, why bother?
At my BB bank we don't even really interview non-MBA masters students for an analyst role.
Is not so much a matter of intellect, especially on the lower levels: hence the theme of this blog, but if you really wanted to distinguish yourself and perhaps prepare for the buy side or something a bit more cerebral, perhaps you'd do it and then take the chance that you'd be in limbo for on-campus recruiting.
i cannot express the importance of doing this for you. you have your whole life to work, stay in school for a year, have some more fun AND come out with a trophy degree (masters from a top school).
...especially if you like what you are doing so far towards that degree, you never know what kind of doors this opens 5 or 10 years away. the 2 year analyst program is the least of your worries right now.
Finish in 4 or Stay for the 5th year? (Originally Posted: 09/17/2007)
Hey guys,
I am currently a Junior at Rutgers University. I'm an Econ major/Statistics minor looking to go into IB.
I read a few topics saying that most Econ programs don't relate to IB and such, and I'm getting worried. I have a good network of people to get me an interview, but am I likely to go on (and do well) afterwards?
My choices would be to finish school normally in 4 years w/ Econ, or stay an extra year to go to business school and finish in 5. Which would be better for me in the long run?
Thanks in advance for any tips.
*Edit: If I went to RBusiness School, I would then major in Finance. Also I'd have my Econ as a second major.
IMO: Economics is such a better major than economics, generally speaking. The problem comes in that you're not from a target, so the finance background will help you when they grill you on the technicals, where you will need to shine. Whether you major in finance or economics (from Rutgers), you will likely land the interview via networking/alumni, neither of which will likely care whether you did economics/finance. I recommend you major in economics, do a course like dealmaven (for your resume), and master the technicals.
I'm from a non-target school and doubled in economics and another social science. All of my interviews I got through alumni, one was surprised I wasn't a finance major, but I explained myself and showed that I knew the technicals. I opted for a non-IB front-office position at a BB in the end (interned, with FT offer for next year).
I'm in the same situation but i would only need to take one additional semester for a econ/finance double major. This would also allow me to grab another internship. Thinking if it's worth it.
Pro's/Con's of an Extra Year (Originally Posted: 05/28/2013)
Looks like I will finally be transferring to a better University this Fall which will start my undergraduate Junior year. However, I will most likely have to do a victory lap and be a 5th year senior at some point.
Besides the obvious negatives with graduating a year late, like extra financial cost, more time in school etc., could you guys help me out and provide some feedback with pro's and con's in regards to this trade-off of doing an extra year. I am trying to decide if leaving my current institution for a better school will actually be worth it given the lost credits and added time. Thanks
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