The Alton Sterling clash

I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet. I don't know if I'm in the minority or not, but I'd like to hear other opinions. I find it deeply disturbing that an increasingly larger portion of our (American) society feels that the following behavior is excusable

-initially passively resisting arrest
-getting ineffectively tasered, actively resisting arrest
-getting tackled, continuing non compliance, apparently reaching for a firearm (still unconfirmed, but recent video seems to corroborate)

This is truly a tragic situation and loss of his life for something so avoidable is terrible. Aldon Sterling acted irrationally and it led to his demise. When do you start holding people accountable for their own actions? Why doesnt law enforcement ever get the benefit of the doubt in these cases that their chief objective is to stay alive while preserving order in society?

I find it maddening that increasingly more people are taking the anti-police position despite clear video evidence that suggests all indicators of resistance and active threat. I'd like to hear others' opinions.

 
Best Response

I have no opinion on either of the recent incidents (frankly, it's too early and too emotionally charged). My larger commentary is on how we, as a society, are missing the forest through the trees when discussing racial injustice. For example, in the first 180 days of 2016, there were 240 murders and 1,000+ gun woundings in the city of Chicago--one could say that for some people Chicago is more dangerous than Fallujah. Violent crime in cities is spiking across the nation.

It's always seemed to me that the real tragedy of racial injustice in the United States (which, frankly, is paltry compared to every other nation on Earth with mixed ethnicities) is that the black community is inundated with violence and drugs, which is destroying the American black community. I can admit that there is probably prejudice in policing and I can sympathize with how frustrating it is to be hassled when you're an otherwise law abiding citizen, but over policing isn't the rot in the American black community--extreme violence, drugs, single motherhood, atrocious schools, poverty and lack of opportunity is the rot in the American black community. For whatever reason blacks and their white (or non-black) enablers are hyper-focused on over policing, which is like the bodybuilder hyper-focused on his gym outfit to the detriment of his exercise routine.

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I served as a military police and, well it differs from the police training but still a valid point imo, never we were taught to shoot a non-threatening man who simply does bit of resistance, yet alone shoot him FIVE times. God damn it, we would wrestle, spray, tase and do everything else than go for the gun.

the PDs are filled with idiots who are power hungry and get off from having firearms and a power status. Gun should be used as a last opportunity under a serious life threatening situation. Wondering whether the guy being a jerk to homeless guy next to your 7/11 has a gun in his pocket is not situation like that.

 

Until ALL video and such is out none of us can have a valid opinion. Even the stuff that makes it to youtube and such are still not the ENTIRE incident, only the portion that the publisher wants you to see.

The MN incident screams that those folks were out that night looking for an encounter, just obviously not to the extent of what happened. Did anyone take note of how calm and legalese the girl was upon interviewing? How she was in the video after the dude was shot?

Sorry, for Baton Rouge you have a multi-felon carrying a gun, and the gun was on him. Resisted arrest, LEO's deployed the taser, tackled to the ground and then a gun is visible. I have not seen an angle on the video that showed his hands were restrained and unable to use them, thus he was a threat. I mean, is the CD selling business peak hours at 12:35a?

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
 

@Virginia Tech 4ever" while I agree with much of what you are saying, I disagree that they are overly focused on "over-policing" (is this supposed to be your word for police brutality?). I say this because said mistreatment has completely deteriorated the trust these communities have of police officers, they essentially see them as part of the problem and not the solution. Due to this, it makes the communities that need the most police support lack said support, further exacerbating how terrible the situation in these communities. We need to heal the rift of trust b/w police and citizens of these communities so they can help root out the criminals and gangbangers. Also, groups like the NAACP have been implementing programs to help combat the issues in the black community for decades, these two ideals (solving the internal problems within the community & combatting police brutality) need not be mutually exclusive.

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BobTheBaker:

@Virginia Tech 4ever while I agree with much of what you are saying, I disagree that they are overly focused on "over-policing" (is this supposed to be your word for police brutality?). I say this because said mistreatment has completely deteriorated the trust these communities have of police officers, they essentially see them as part of the problem and not the solution. Due to this, it makes the communities that need the most police support lack said support, further exacerbating how terrible the situation in these communities. We need to heal the rift of trust b/w police and citizens of these communities so they can help root out the criminals and gangbangers. Also, groups like the NAACP have been implementing programs to help combat the issues in the black community for decades, these two ideals (solving the internal problems within the community & combatting police brutality) need not be mutually exclusive.

I guess my larger thought was how I see Black Lives Matter movement--and as of yesterday, every rich, white person in America--so focus on police brutality while completely and utterly ignoring the war zone that some of these places--St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago--have become. It's like, yeah, maybe police brutality is a problem, but why the hyper-focus on what amounts to a minor problem relative to the real problem? Why does BLM and the insufferable white, condescending liberal (IWCL) not seem to care that Chicago is as bad as Iraq?

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Can we have a conversation without turning it into a liberal vs. conservative politics debate? It serves as a distraction. Also, why do you assume that because BLM highlights police brutality in minority communities that means they don't care about gang violence?

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I have a hard time with these things, my mother (black) was married to a police sergeant (white) who was in various departments but mostly vice & narcotics as well as homicide. the way he explained policing to me was that a gun is a last resort, you can do an amazing amount of harm/immobilizing with your hands plus something like a baton or even a ballpoint pen (pressure points and whatnot), so I have a difficult time believing that the gun was the right call based on the footage I've seen. if, in fact, the gentleman pulled a gun and pointed it at the officers, absolutely fire away.

however, the video I saw made it appear as though the officers saw he had a gun (but was not in his hands), and then proceeded to open fire, without (again, it appears this way) any attempt to put the suspect on his stomach or immobilize him in some other way and handcuff him. I don't want to be judge jury and executioner until all of the tapes come out because quite frankly, I believe most cops are good people trying to serve their communities, and most of them want to have their entire careers not ever having to fire their weapon (at least the ones I've met).

this is a tough time in America, it makes me sad that racial tension between blacks & whites is so strong. whatever comes out of this, I'm sure there will be tons of angry people, I just hope that the reaction isn't like what happened in Dallas last night.

 
thebrofessor:

I have a hard time with these things, my mother (black) was married to a police sergeant (white) who was in various departments but mostly vice & narcotics as well as homicide. the way he explained policing to me was that a gun is a last resort, you can do an amazing amount of harm/immobilizing with your hands plus something like a baton or even a ballpoint pen (pressure points and whatnot), so I have a difficult time believing that the gun was the right call based on the footage I've seen. if, in fact, the gentleman pulled a gun and pointed it at the officers, absolutely fire away.

however, the video I saw made it appear as though the officers saw he had a gun (but was not in his hands), and then proceeded to open fire, without (again, it appears this way) any attempt to put the suspect on his stomach or immobilize him in some other way and handcuff him. I don't want to be judge jury and executioner until all of the tapes come out because quite frankly, I believe most cops are good people trying to serve their communities, and most of them want to have their entire careers not ever having to fire their weapon (at least the ones I've met).

this is a tough time in America, it makes me sad that racial tension between blacks & whites is so strong. whatever comes out of this, I'm sure there will be tons of angry people, I just hope that the reaction isn't like what happened in Dallas last night.

I hear what you are saying and mostly agree but in Baton Rouge they did attempt to taser but it ultimately failed. During the struggle I am not sure why they never got the suspect over onto his back.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
 

if that's true, and the suspect was pointing a gun at the officers, then their level of force was justified. I still have a hard time believing the officers did everything they could to avoid using their weapons. I saw no arm bars (the guy was only 5'11", not michael brown sized), the suspect didn't seem to be resisting, and didn't see him pull or even reach for his weapon.

what I learned from my (now ex) stepdad, is there's an escalation tree. first, you try to verbally resolve the issue, then physically with your hands, then with a weapon like a baton or taser (non-fatal), then a gun. all of this could happen in a matter of seconds, so I don't know if the officers did all of this, but the video makes it look like they threw him on the ground (no problem with that if he was resisting), put a knee to his chest, spotted a gun, and then shot him. I have no problem with the takedown, but in my limited experience via a family member, you take the suspect down and then you cuff them. at THAT point, you search for weapons, because the suspect is immobilized, they can do no harm, they can only flee.

normally, I'm on the cops' side, but in this case, unless a video comes out that shows the suspect reaching for his gun, pulling his gun, something like that, what the cops did was completely unjustifiable.

 

I'm extremely surprised no one has addressed the very real and imminent threat a large, uncooperative and armed individual poses. The guy was huge and resisting arrest while armed. Deadly force should be the last line of defense but can someone say in good conscience what other alternatives the cops had to apprehend this guy once he's on the ground reaching for his gun?? After failing to be subdued from the taser? How are you making that life or death split second decision in the heat of the moment, when your life is on the line? Here's a hint--instinct kicks in to survive and there is a reason legal statutes exist giving police the right to use deadly force if their life is in danger. On the other hand the amount of shots fired was very excessive.

 

Look at the second video (convenience store owner's cell video). It's the closest video to the scene and in 720p hd. It gives a clear view of the moments leading up to and including the first gunshot. You will see Alton Sterling's right arm make a clear motion towards the right pocket where the gun is. The officer who tackled him and is trying to subdue him sees this and panics yelling he's got a gun. Like I said--in real life this happens very quickly and your animal instinct is to preserve your life.

 
iggs99888:
I find it deeply disturbing that an increasingly larger portion of our (American) society feels that the following behavior is excusable

-initially passively resisting arrest -getting ineffectively tasered, actively resisting arrest -getting tackled, continuing non compliance, apparently reaching for a firearm (still unconfirmed, but recent video seems to corroborate)

There is plenty of inexcusable behaviour which doesn't merit being shot 5 times.

I'm find it more deeply disturbing that there's a large portion of US society who leaps to make excuses for this sort of police behaviour.

In a nation founded partially on a deep and abiding fear of government wielding arbitrary power, it's a little counterintuintive that large portions of society are biased towards defending the police rather than harbouring suspicion against them in situations like this. At least, seems counterintuitive until you factor in other triggers for bias in this incident.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 
SSits:
iggs99888:

I find it deeply disturbing that an increasingly larger portion of our (American) society feels that the following behavior is excusable

-initially passively resisting arrest
-getting ineffectively tasered, actively resisting arrest
-getting tackled, continuing non compliance, apparently reaching for a firearm (still unconfirmed, but recent video seems to corroborate)

There is plenty of inexcusable behaviour which doesn't merit being shot 5 times.

I'm find it more deeply disturbing that there's a large portion of US society who leaps to make excuses for this sort of police behaviour.

In a nation founded partially on a deep and abiding fear of government wielding arbitrary power, it's a little counterintuintive that large portions of society are biased towards defending the police rather than harbouring suspicion against them in situations like this. At least, seems counterintuitive until you factor in other triggers for bias in this incident.

When he went for his firearm he left them with no choice. You will feel the same whether it was one shot or five. Until you experience what it is like to have it be mandatory of wearing a bullet proof vest as part of your work "suiting up" (or know someone who does) you'll never appreciate the dangers the officers face.

And then, you have Dallas last night. Think it is not war on LEO's?

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
 
3200fps:
Until you experience what it is like to have it be mandatory of wearing a bullet proof vest as part of your work "suiting up" (or know someone who does) you'll never appreciate the dangers the officers face.

If we're going to play the "you're not qualified" game, then I'll offer the view that, until you've grown up in a culture outside of the US then come to the US later in life as an adult and observed race relations here from a slightly more dispassionate perspective, you'll never appreciate how deeply ingrained prejudice against African Americans is in this country and how simply the colour of someone's skin can make all the difference in which direction American knees jerk.

Of course, there's implied presumptions in both our views that may not be warranted.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 
SSits:
I find it more deeply disturbing that there's a large portion of US society who leaps to make excuses for this sort of police behavior.
I could not agree more. If you saw the video, it's obvious that what the cops did was wrong. If you're defending the cops in this situation, take a long look in the mirror. You shouldn't like what you see.

This is as obvious as stating that OJ committed double homicide. Actually even more so, since there is video evidence in this incident.

 
The Real Max:

There are plenty of situation like Brown's where the officers were justified in shooting. This wasn't one of them, and from what the police, Governor, and press have released, the MN incident was an order of magnitude worse, unprovoked murder.

I'm assuming that you're referencing the Philando Castile incident? I Just watched the video that his girlfriend taped whilst in the passenger seat - it literally made me feel sick.

 

Black Lives Matter is a terrorist group and should be classified as such. This horrible killing of 5 cops, plus the cops shot in NYC and elsewhere is indicative of how worthless our president is and the news cycle continually pushing this bad cop narrative. Gardner, Brown, Martin, Grey, etc, all killed because of their criminal behavior. That guy who was shot in the back, the cop went to jail (dude was still a criminal).

God bless the cops and fuck the BLM terrorists.

 

Car full of armed militia lead cops on a chase in Oregon after a prolonged siege, one of them gets shot, a significant amount of people say he was never reaching for a gun, cops acted wrong. Compare that case to this situation, compare who is saying what. It's somewhat informative about how this country handles race.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

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