About a week ago, I was sitting at my desk at my current PE internship when the partners and the CEO were filling in a questionnaire that an investor (bank) had requested. The specific question that caught my attention was one that asked for the caliber of my firm's current and previous interns.
The answer provided by the big guys?
We have had Ivy League interns, mostly from Harvard, Stanford, Yale and other top universities such as Oxford, Cambridge and LSE.
There was no mention of my non-target university. I could tell that they felt bad seeing as this was all done 10 feet away from me and I could hear everything, so what followed was an attempt to make me feel better about myself:
...and other universities.
Safe to say this made me feel somewhat insecure despite the great work I have done for the firm so far, but it also made me think. When does this "curse" end? WSO seems to discuss the problem up to the point of breaking into finance/Wall Street, but how much does the non-target name hold one back at later stages of ones career? Does the university name mean less at more senior levels? Most boutique IB/PE firms appear to be run/owned by Harvard or Wharton grads. Does the name of their undergrad or business school give them more credibility for e.g. fundraising, getting the first clients? Or are they inherently smarter and more capable?
I'd like to hear your views on this.
Do not be put off by this. It's simply a way for your firm to advertise itself, especially to potential/current investors. On the other hand, however, brand name only carries you so far. There are a lot of extremely successful financiers that did not come out of the "ivy" league school systems.
Myself, well, I am from a very non-target and that doesn't bother me one bit. Let your work product/idea/work ethic build a rep and speak for you, not a university brand name.
It will always matter, which university you went to. Nobody cares if you went to a non-target or a semi-target, though. What matters is if you went to a great university or not. This doesn't mean you can't make it, if you didn't, but the person who has Harvard in his resume will always gain more attention than the one with some less stellar school.
Just look at news reports about new CEOs. If they went to a top school, it is almost always mentioned. It just reassures everybody that it was the right decision to pick him for that position.
Completely agree with this post on all accounts - came from a top group during my analyst stint (GS TMT/ BX Rest. / MS M&A / GS FIG) and am currently at a top MM PE fund (Madison Dearborn / Lindsay Goldberg / Golden Gate Capital) and always found people will raise an eyebrow at the mention of a top school. You won't be brushed off by any means but you will always have a little more to prove. People who say it doesn't matter at the senior levels are trolling. Its by no means a game changer or will affect your performance at work but you will get noticed less without a doubt.
It will always matter to some extent but not a huge dealbreaker if you went to a school people have heard of. I think working experience matters too as long as there's not a huge gap between schools. I'd rather take a kid from Georgetown with Goldman IBD experience than some Harvard guy who has a no-name boutique bank on his resume.
Yeah, but at the same time, it's harder to get a Goldman internship coming from Georgetown than Harvard.
As it should be.
Yep so it shows me that the kid really hustled and probably has a good drive and is motivated. A lot of Harvard kids I've interviewed have shown up with a sense of entitlement.
To give you another example: I was meeting with an entrepreneur who was seeking an non-controlling equity investment from us, and he had done an MBA at my business school as well as an MBA at Harvard. In the meeting I tried breaking the ice by saying: "I saw you went to X university, I went there too...". Seeing as he was looking for investment, he was quick to dismiss what I just said by almost shouting out "Yes, but I also got an MBA from Harvard".
When fundraising or starting ones own business, particularly in Finance, will non-target alumni have a tougher time than target alumni due to credibility discrepancies?
Personally, I know I am as capable if not more so than many top school students/graduates. But is it then the case that non-targets will always have to work five times harder than them forever? I understand this is true and somewhat fair at entry level, of course, but I wonder whether it prevails; will the target always win on average?
Are you just looking for reassurance and consolation for your lack of achievement with your university education? You should've known the difference when you started and there's a reason top universities get this much attention and desirability. Did you just want someone to say "don't worry about it, 3 years out of school, no one gives a crap at all"? Just false, it will affect you in little ways throughout your career. Don't let that discourage you.
Just work hard and make the best of what you have. You will not be restricted but you may need to work harder to get noticed.
To answer your question, yes, "on average", I would say targets always win.
Why do all non-targets on this site think they work so much harder than targets? People don't just walk into top schools out of high school, they bust their asses to get there. And that's just the beginning, you have to kick ass in undergrad to stand out among a huge pool people who are all top students and who all want the same thing you do. I see tons of kids on facebook all the time chirping about how they made deans list or got a 4.0 at even decent state schools despite them being the ones chucking spitballs at the teacher during class. Targets are a whole different ballgame when classes are curved in a pool of way more talented students.
And again just going to a target doesn't mean you're entitled to an awesome job after graduation. You need to be a TOP student at a TOP undergrad, hence why banks only go to a certain number of schools since they can fill their classes many times over with these kids and still leave the vast majority without anything.
Wondering the same thing. The ol' chip-on-the-shoulder routine gets pretty nauseating after a while.
This is a joke. Non-target students have to work way harder. Target students don't have to stand out - they have a resume drop, the end. IMO if you're from Penn and you didn't make it to GS/MS/JPM or a MF PE analyst position, you're probably an idiot who didnt utilize his or her resources, and a nontarget student who busted his ass just to get DB IBD can probably crush you.
Cheers to the nontargets.
Should have worked harder in high school bro.
Once you get the job, your work results speak MUCH louder volumes than your university. Sure, Harvard is a nice name to have on a resume, but matters less and less as you get more work experience.
non-target = too many life mistakes
Let's be serious, there are myriad of people here from non-targets constantly whining about getting a job in the finance industry. Even worse they are always whing about working in high finance (IB, ER, PE, HF) front office roles. My favorite questions are "What are my chances, resume included [crap credentials]?"
Seriously, very few people to nobody looks past your school on your resume.
Most of them will NEVER work in these roles at any point in their life and would be lucky to get into the industry now.
For most people their career potential is ultimately decided by the end of their junior year of high school.
Your a moron, there are lots of people who did bad in hs, go to total non targets and through a reassessment of priorities get into M7 business schools and work at MBB and BB IBD afterwards. This is fucking AMERICA, not France, people can be successful whenever they want to - whenever they decide to put in the effort and go after their calling.
On the actual subject, bankers care alot about this stuff, but that's probably because they are borderline retarded. I find people who lack intellectual capabilities rely much more heavily on school creds. I wouldn't really worry too much about what bankers think, alot of ppl running money and making srs money think bankers are losers fwiw.
The problem with non-target is that it implies that your not brilliant and were lazy earlier in life. High school is a complete joke if you are the smartest guy in the room you can ace it even if you smoke pot all day and don't give a fuck. And if you are not the smartest guy in the room then you have to do banking, and for that you need to be a work horse, and school is a proxy for how much of a work horse you are...
regardless of how things play out, key is to not have a chip on your shoulder. The whole I went to a non-target, don't come from a priviliged background etc... thing gets old quickly, nobody gives a fuck and you will just piss people off.
Your life 10 years from now will most heavily be influenced by what you do today and thereafter, rather than your past.
I liked your post so much that I am not even going to be a grammar nazi.
I'd be so fucked if this was true
You are a massive tool.
No shit...talk about someone who hasn't gotten out of their cube much. What a douche-kabob!
No shit...talk about someone who hasn't gotten out of their cube much.
Might be one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. Plenty of CEO's/CFO's are not from target schools. Don Washkewitz of Parker Hannifin went to Cleveland State University and pulls in $12M a year. How much do you make with your HBS degree?
I know another guy who barely had a 2.0 in HS, went to the only local college he could get into, then decided to start applying himself and did well there and got into a FLDP program. Now he's climbed the ladder quickly, got an MBA, and has gotten pegged for promotions over people from target schools and is being looked at by AM/ER firms. I'm not saying its the norm but if someone decides they want to be successful after doing poorly in HS, they will. It's all up to the individual.
You can still go to HBS, then your undergrad will become obsolete.
"ivy league schools such as stanford"
Mind you this firm is in South Africa. To the world outside the US these lists aren't clear cut. The point of this thread is to see if the non-target vs target issue persists on average throughout ones career or not. The first part was just what sparked my curiosity regarding the matter.
don't feel bad its just a heuristic/shortcut its not like anyone wants to read a 500 word description of how good interns are this is far less accurate but far quicker way to attempt to convey the same information
I'd take it as a source of pride. Even if you're from a non-target, you made it and are hustling with the best of the ivy league-ers.
Unfortunately brand matters, much like the suit you wear going into a meeting. It's the first impression curse. You can't change the school you graduated from, but I know a lot of my colleagues went to business school to "re-brand" themselves early on.
It matters a lot for PE and banking. It doesn't matter much for most hedge funds (at least not those in the business of making money). There are plenty of state school grads running money and putting up big numbers, and plenty of state school grads at the analyst level.
The best performing long short hedge fund in the country over the last 15 years is run by someone who went to a school most people couldn't locate on a map, and the firm employs no target school people at all.
The best performing (or one of them) long short hedge funds over the last 3 years (launched 2009) is run by a 30 year old guy from Berkeley. The one analyst working for him went to UCLA.
Nobody cares where you went to school if you can make money. A lot of Ivy grads wash out and don't ever make it in the business.
WSO has a lot of the Steve Jobs reality distortion field going on. Feel free to ignore any and all of the prestige posts here.
Any chance you can fill us in on the funds mentioned? Or PM if you feel more comfortable with that. Am very curious and always like to keep track of smart guys. Thanks a lot.
Doesn't matter.
It's a signaling mechanism used by lazy people. Though this could refer to a lot of things.
Reiterate what a lot of people are saying- chances are, even if you are at a Non-Target there is some alumni base at the bank (or at least a few unless it is a tiny subpar school). Network as well as you can, get a 4.0, and you will at least have a shot.
It's crazy how many people say it doesn't matter if you're from a non-target, you just have to network and get over a 3.7. Well the fact that you have to do these things means that it DOES matter!
SOOOO much insecurity in finance. The name of your university will always matter, as does your appearance, car you drive, and how hot your girlfried is...
If you made it into PE from a non-target great job, you worked really hard to break in, while those who didn't have to work quite as hard to break in were the ones breaking their balls in HS to get into an Ivy League school (or just come from very high pedigree.)
Once you've "made it," don't worry about shit that doesn't matter and kill your competition if you want to become "elite."
EDIT: All this bitchiing is ridiculous. Don't subordinate yourself to HYPS kids if you're a non-target if you want a chance, just as an ugly guy shouldn't put the hot chick on some pedestal if he wants a chance with her. There is much more to success/life than constantly comparing yourself to people who seem better than you.
Good point. Far too often the grass isn't greener and the uber golden child from a target turns out to be an uber douche with a very limited skillset.
Consider that in an interview, if they expect less from a non-target student and you go HAM and come off as more intelligent, educated and well mannered than someone from an Ivy, that will surprise people and have a greater affect.
*effect
it's more a matter of ivy guys hiring other ivy guys.
But otherwise, what you have done matters more than the name of your school. (And if you've done well enough post-college to warrant a serious PE career- than getting into a top MBA is no problem anyways).
Idk reactions are always mixed about this topic. In my experience, I've had firms not care about my background and instead focused on my experiences as well as my ability to hold a casual conversation over the phone, but other times I've had an MD from a BB flat out tell me I have no shot at getting an interview for a front office role because of the non-target I regrettably attend, despite having done a front office internship at a well known midsize bank. I've seen people in the industry rebranding themselves with a target school by pursuing an executive MBA, despite having secured a front office role at their firm. It could be that they've hit a wall in terms of career progression, but again not sure...
I think the internet will slowly but surely lead to a convergence on whether or not a target matters. Yes probably for the end of lifetime, a target such as HYP will matter.
But
Nowadays considering the vast proliferation of information, people are learning about career paths, developing skills and learning (messing around more) online than before. A high school kid could learn linear algebra from MIT if they want to. Given this obviously also applies to people at top schools.
Basically, if you dedicate available resources to obtaining something such as a job in IB or what have you, it can be done. You also won't look as moronic on the job if you attended a less notable institution as you can self teach yourself skills. "Kind of" levels the playing field.
To be fair, luck will forever play a huge part in this. Someone might have networked his/her way into a job but you got lucky the other person gave a frick enough to respond.
Track record is the only thing that matters in the scheme of things.
Your school matters more for your first or second job, but after that it is dramatically less important. After a few years in the business, most employers care about how successful you are at your job and whether you can make money for the firm.
When you guys use the words target/non-target, do you not realize that schools that don't even cross people's radars when discussing the top schools (i.e. Utexas, Baruch, NYU) are considered targets at many banks, while many top schools don't even have on campus interviews?
I think the best way to break into desirable entry level jobs (IB, MC) is to go to a target, and major in something easy. Most consulting firms and I-banks don't care what your major was, as long as you have the GPA and internships they're looking for.
FWIW, I know too many history and sociology majors from my school who are now doing banking or consulting. Granted, all of them had 3.7+ GPA. What I will say is that even coming from Harvard, if your GPA is lower than 3.5, you can easily get fucked in OCR. (even if your major was econ, engineering, math, etc)
That being said, if you are truly hard working and have the smarts yet have the misfortune of attending a complete non-target, you should consider transferring. Schools like Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, UVA, or U Michigan have strong finance/consulting recruiting, yet these schools aren't impossible to get into, unlike HYP or Wharton.
I understand that this happens a ton, but why the hell would a firm prefer a 3.7 sociology major to a 3.3 engineering major at Harvard? It makes no sense at all considering the stem/econ major is probably more intelligent anyway.
Nature of the beast. I agree it ain't fair, but it is what it is. I was an econ major at HYP with crap GPA, and I got utterly, hopelessly fucked back in OCR when I was still in college. (0 offers by the time of graduation)
I presume the rationale for wanting high GPA, regardless of what someone's major was, is because it frankly doesn't take that much of intellect, nor strong quant skills, to be an analyst in banking or consulting. Put it this way, you don't need to be well-versed in multivariable calculus or differential equations in order to execute the 9-th grade level math that a banking gig demands of its employees. You just need to be a well-rounded person with strong pedigree, who is willing to, and is capable of, showing strong drive and grind out 80-90 hour/week working conditions without fucking things up. A history major at Harvard with a 3.8 GPA meets all of the above criteria.
If you're looking for finance, why wouldn't you go to the schools mentioned over HYP? The number of spots available at all the above are probably greater than HYP. The competition is presumably less.
You'll also have better backup options. If consulting/ibanking doesn't work out, what the fuck are you going to do if you major in sociology at Harvard?
Many end up in non-profits. Some do non-conventional careers, such as HR, PR, paralegal, journalist, media, marketing, Big4 valuations/advisory, sales, or IT consulting in some cases. (these are what the people I know are doing with the kind of background you mentioned)
Many others head straight to grad school. The most popular choice being law school.
I would assume that it is still easier to break into banking or consulting coming out of HYP than University of Michigan, due to 1) smaller student body, thus less competition overall for top jobs, 2) top firms reserve more slots for HYP + Wharton grads compared to other schools they recruit at.
However, I am not 100% sure if the above is true.
My opinion is the top 5-10% of a school are equal in terms of intellectual capabilities regardless of school (this of course limited to decent schools). Everyone has a different situation in life and not everyone can make it to an ivy out of undergrad. That's why you see some kids going to an average school but going to a M7 MBA or top law school. Also being in banking is not the end all be all, plenty of successful state school students have become CEOs/CFOS etc. But sure top target --> BB IBD is the easiest way to make 6 figures out of school.
Rather than it being an issue of top 5-10% being the same intellectually, you should never forget the sample size of non-targets is bigger than people coming from ivy leagues. And disadvantage of brand name or not, it's easy to believe that the top 1% of all those millions of state school kids are going to beat out ivy league competitors to those spots in fair numbers because 1% of that sample size is friggin huge.
Never understood this argument. If anything, the top 5% of HYP is where the real difference is. These are your international math/physics/bio/informatics olympiad medalists, the kids who founded internationally recognized non profits in high school, those who were doing Ph.D research with a mentoring professor before they were even in college, those running hugely successful startups etc.
I agree that the top 1% of the student body at most decent non-target schools could easily cut it at HYP, but the cream of the crop at HYP are pretty much the most accomplished HS kids in the nation (and even outside the US).
Princeton CS students are more organized, UIUC students were a little more driven; I'll bet the same is true at Cal, Seattle, and Georgia Tech. I think Illinois has a general monopsony on brilliant kids from IL who want to study CS given the low (often free) tuition; the story is similar for California, Washington, and Georgia. MIT, CMU, Stanford, and Princeton/Cornell to some extent compete for the rest of the country.
I have a 70%-1% rule. 70% off the brilliant people (top 1%) you meet come from places you would never expect. Like everything else in life, intellect is distributed in the form of a GPD-Guassian, not a Normal distribution. Legacies, essays written by 17 year olds, summer jobs, parental college spending preferences, even standardized tests do a very poor job of capturing this. Grades in college and professional track record are much better indicators.
as a tutor, teaching assistant, and math team coach for the local HS, I can tell you that the smartest kids in math are always the ones that worked hard at some point in their life. This talk about how HYP kids are intellectually smarter than non-targets is just wrong.
I've taught students who seemed like complete retards in math but helped them move into the top of their class. With those students, I always find out that they are missing a fundamental block of knowledge that prevents them from fully understanding concepts. Usually you can blame this on a teacher that wasn't thorough enough or the students laziness, not intellectual ability.
its basically a compounding problem - when your a kid, your favorite class is whatever you're good at, which at the time is arbitrary and/or decided by your parents. Without strong guidance, you'll spend too much time with what you like and too little with what you are bad at - the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Let that repeat a couple of years, maybe a decade, and you'll find college students who are terrified by math equations.
Oh and I've studied at a target and non-target. All that matters is how willing the student is. In the end, you still have to teach yourself your own talents - nobody is going to hand you your skill... whether at a target or non-target.
To break the non-target curse, you develop a reputation for getting stuff done. Then you think about an MBA or an MFE.
It's possible. I would not call UIUC a total non-target, but I would call it infuriatingly underrated. Around the people that I worked with, I helped change some of that. Then they helped get me promoted and eventually into grad school.
Not everyone is brilliant and successful, but you find ~70% of your brilliant and successful people in places that one wouldn't necessarily expect.
The non-target-chip is a very good chip to have on your shoulder. Every day, you show up to work with something to prove. You grit your teeth at the occasional assholes from Princeton and Harvard, and always ask yourself how to prove to everyone that you're smarter than them and that they're not as bright as everyone thinks.
After a few years, you will have to decide whether you want to always carry that chip on your shoulder, or whether you want to "break the curse". Do you stick to your guns and say "F--- these Ivy League d----ags, I don't need a Stanford MBA, Harvard MBA, or MIT MFin to prove I'm smart."? Or do you take a more pragmatic approach?
I agonized over that decision. I had my values- that the first should be last and the last should be first, that elitism was nearly as stupid and harmful as racism, and I did not want to risk becoming an case-in-point for it. But then when I asked myself if, in thirty years, I would regret turning down grad school, the answer deep down was "Yes". At the very root, I was confident I could do well with a degree from UIUC, but I felt I would be making my decision out of negative resistance had I said no.
I thought I would feel really bad about it, but the truth was that I felt so good about getting out of industry for two years that I didn't even notice. And I've met so many other driven state schoolers here that I'm now glad I went.
I am guessing that you will get to make your own decision in three or four years. You don't have to make the same choice as me, but it's (1) good to have the option of turning down Harvard, Stanford, or Chicago and (2) good to hear a story or two like this early.
I liked how you mentioned Princeton first...
Seriously underrated in finance maybe. But I study both economics and engineering at a target school and most of the students (in engineering) here know that you can't get much more legit than electrical engineering at UIUC. EE (along with most engineering majors) at UIUC is actually insane.
I think the problem is that many IB/fin services companies don't understand the value of someone from a non-target because they went to a target themselves. They're hiring people who look like them and don't understand that when you're a client-facing business, diversity really does matter. It really isn't non-target vs target, but more of an old boys network that's hard to break in. I think if you have the drive to succeed and the vision to move ahead, you will be successful. Plus, the whole industry is changing and many fin svcs firms are just operating with their heads in the sand. And if you're the person with the most pedigree, but only mediocre skill sets, you likely won't succeed 20 years from now. The world's a different place from where it was 10-15 years ago.
A target education does not guarantee a prestigious job, nor does it help in landing quality women. It always comes down to the individual's quality.
If IB's happen to adopt the system of recruiting only from target schools, so be it. If you truly want IB, go beat that system. Get your shit together and transfer to one of those target schools. Take your shot at it.
I don't understand why many people complain about this issue. I have a friend from high school who didn't have his shit together in high school and ended up at a community college. Then, he matured, got his priorities straight, and decided that he wants to work on Wall St. He got good grades, retook SAT, and applied to transfer to University of Michigan. He got in. He got top grades there, networked like his life depended on it, prepped intensively for interviews, and landed 4 offers from BB IBD. Now, this kid makes twice my salary.
On the other hand, I was the 'smart' kid in high school. I got near perfect SAT and I got into HYP. Then, I got lazy, chased after girls, got wasted 5 nights a week, and didn't have my goals and priorities straight. I graduated with a horrible GPA (2 years ago) from HYP and completely missed out on finance/ consulting. Fortunately for me, I still was able to land a decent job, and I thank my lucky stars for that.
What I am trying to say is, if you want something, you just go make it happen. Don't dwell on your past. I think that a true rational person is the one who tries to make the most out of the current situation he faces. And, believe me, I don't have a doubt in my mind that my friend from high school who started out in community college is now better off career-wise than 70-75% of my classmates from HYP, myself included.
The issue here is everyone matures at a different level. Not everyone has their stuff together in high school. For some people it happens when they turn 20. However, at that point it is usually too late to transfer into a target school. That is not to say these talented students can't make a killing by attending a T20 school or so.
I don't think going to target = success by any means. First of all target vs. non-target is mainly for IBD and MBB recruitment. This is not the only way to become successful and have an IBD background isn't exactly the a traditional step on the CEO track path. How many CEOs are actually ex-bankers? The guys who worked in IBD/MBB will start off with a higher salary but it is quite possible for those having less high paying jobs to close to gap throughout their career.
Also if target students are inherently superior we wouldn't see too many cases of people going to state schools but going to a target for their MBA/graduate school.
I think it all comes down to the recruiter's preference. Naturally, a recruiter will want to pool candidates from the school they attended if they had a good experience there. This is for at least two reasons 1) the recruiter knows the said school has a rigorous curriculum/talented student body, hence a student coming from such a school is more or less known commodity, especially if the firm has a successful track record of recruiting from those schools in the past 2) the recruiter has a personal connection with his/her school. I know I will be wanting to recruit kids from my school when I graduate and give them a shot.
This discussion is a little wacky. You bros are forgetting the fact that the whole distinction is a joke to begin with. Most smart kids at non-target skools would do just fine at most target skools. Sure there might be some distinction at skools like Princeton/MIT, big whoop. In the financial services industry you can rarely tell the difference without asking, which makes sense since typically the most intellectually challenging thing you're doing is addition and subtraction. However, the fact remains that it's all part of the game...which is all it is, nothing more, nothing less.
It's extremely important when you're a young kid who accomplished nothing in finance yet.
10 or 15 years later it is completely irrelevant if you're very successfull. Nobody cares what a top PM did before he started getting huge returns for 10 years in a row.
If you still suck, however, it will be helpful to make people think you're not that bad.
If you're in the middle, it probably helps to some extent.
I wish I could find that quote from Swagon about going to a non-target is like having aids. By the time you figure out you have non-target aids its almost too late etc. As a non-target it struck a chord with me for being aptly how I felt about it.
I know a kid who went to Williams, screwed up and ended up in zucotti park occupying wall street(no joke). I thought it was ridiculous at first, but then when I realized that I had a case of non target aids(semi srs) it struck a chord with me as it does to the rest of the 47%.
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