The Truth About Money
I'm seeing a few subtle similarities in the economy today to three years ago, and though it would be precipitous to say a second dip is probably on the way, I don't think it hurts to share some of the wisdom I've gained over the past three years in personal finance.
When I arrived in New York back in 2007, about half of the people my age were living pretty extravagant lifestyles for analysts earning a $60K/year salary. Half of them were living in Manhattan, paying Manhattan rent and NYC taxes, and dropping $200 partying at the Pink Elephant every weekend. They figured they were in New York, they were bankers, and they wanted to live the life. Unemployment was 4.6%, credit was easy, and heck, the economy would always be good! So rather than save money, they chose to dig themselves deeper into debt.
The other half of us got to NYC and we were scared. Just out of college, we were totally broke, and now our rent was going up by a factor of three or four to cover living near NYC. Few of us had held a job for more than a few months straight, and now we were expected to sign a 12-month lease with a total rent greater than our net worth. So rather than living in Manhattan, we saved some money by living in Brooklyn or Hoboken. Rather than partying at the Pink Elephant or the Hudson Hotel Bar every weekend, we settled for beer at home or maybe going to a dive bar that served up $4 domestics if we felt like splurging. Rather than eating at trendy restaurants like Spice Market, we were content with Subway. All of that money we saved went into paying down student debt and building up emergency savings.
The bottom fell out of the market in September 2008, but the layoffs in the financial sector really started in late 2007- and even hit some newly-hired analysts then. It got progressively worse until the market bottomed in 2009, but those of us who were scrimping and saving slept a lot better at night and aged a lot less through the crisis. If we got laid off, we already had a frugal lifestyle, and we had enough money to cover that for quite a while.
So, if you're a new analyst, the next time you have the choice of going to a trendy, expensive club or a dive bar, just imagine what would happen if you got laid off. If you don't like what you see (images of evictions and creditors calling at 3AM), go to the dive bar.
The truth about money is that you either own it or it owns you. And the more of it you spend on things that you don't really need for yourself, the more it owns you.
wise words! wise words! If i can get into an i-banking gig, (currently big 4 valuation intern), I plan on living the same way. Are there more of people like you out there? I feel like everything I read here is about who is the biggest pompous arrogant person around and lets go clubbing, or to the top bar, etc. It is good to here that some people out there do actually just want to be in the finance industry, like the atmoshpere, and live quiet lifestyles then going into it for the pay
Great advise man. The surprising thing is that a lot of this should be common sense, but people get carried away by the whole high finance thing. Finance career is highly volatile, almost like a yo-yo...haha.
I don't have any bananas, but can offer a 5star rating instead.
'man made money money never made the man'
that's ll cool j. its funny that a rapper figured out what most ib analysts are not even aware of.
Great points. It can't hurt to have money saved away.
deflation deflation deflation... cash is king
Your life sounds fcking boring as hell and while I agree with the importance of managing your money from a longer time horizon you need to strike a balance between enjoying life and building security for the future. One could argue that you were a slave to money because you were constantly aware of it in every decision you made.
Spend money and enjoy life. Theyre gonna keep printing more of that shit anyway.
You don't need to drop a grand a night to have fun (even though that is fun). I meet wayyyyyyy better girls at lower/middle of the road bars buying bottles of bud at 5 bucks a pop than I do ordering bottles of goose for 400+ at some ghey nightclub with my douchebag finance friends.
It depends. Instead of spending at least $4 for a Bud at Cresent Street, I'd rather buy a 24-bottle for around $35 at Provigo and share it with friends. We also like to dinner together at home. But going to pub/restaurant occasionally, e.g. once in a week, is also fun.
If you work in an investment banking group, that's pretty reasonable. I didn't work investment banking hours. Analytics and Sales & Trading meant I got to work less than 70 hours a week and the commute back to Jersey City wasn't as miserable at 9PM as it would be at 1 AM. Still recommend getting a roommate, though.
This is an interesting perspective, but it ignores a few things:1.) The discipline you build saving money when you're in your early twenties will help you save it in your 30s. If you are living hand to mouth in your twenties by partying at the pink elephant, it will be easier for you to be living hand to mouth in your thirties and forties with fast cars, private jets, a huge mortgage, and trips to Monaco. Eventually, you will be 65, too worn out to work, and too poor to retire.
2.) Compound interest.
3.) Spending lots of money and not having any in the bank makes you age faster.
Your MD friend will tell you to enjoy life, but one thing I've noticed about the self-made rich 40 year-olds I know is that they were all very frugal in their 20s and 30s. My Dad had a roommate until he got married and lived basically in college housing near the UIC campus while he was working in Chicago. It's important to strike a balance between money and happiness, but you don't need to spend money on things that don't really make your life better (like getting hammered on mixed drinks at Le Evelyn.)
I'm merely suggesting 8 months of expenses- just as Suze Ormann puts it. For me, that works out to six months take-home pay. The point though, is unless you're starting with an emergency savings fund, you need to start building it up immediately.dude iliiniprogrammer always posts about hangliding and biking and shit... he sounds like has a sweet life... i don't think he enjoys new york that much but from the way it sounds he has a pretty extreme lifestyle... i know i couldn't do that shit lol
you could do that shit if you followed your badass roommate around more. biking!!!!
always save some money but dont save too much on life quality. you might earn as much as you make in a year now per month later in your life, but it's only half as fulfilling when you are old.
I think Illini is spot on. One thing I might disagree on is saving on rent. If you are working a lot of hours I think it is worth paying more to live close to work. That really is a huge quality of life issue. Pissing away tons of money on stuff you dont need to bottle service is a waste, but saving yourself the misery of a cab ride and a train ride just to get some much needed sleep is torture.
Everything else I agree 100% with.
Most of your net worth as college graduate is in the form of long-term earnings potential, not the mere few K's that you have the option of saving as an analyst. Although frugality might have served one the short run in the past three years, it is not necessarily advisable to those with true expectation of future wealth.
Although your maxim may feel like good advice nowadays, you forget that leveraging up with expectation of high return later is likely to be the rational strategy that helps you begin feeling the benefits of that wealth earlier on.
I also wouldn't blame the risk takers. They are the most likely to reap the rewards and realize their potential.
Taking out loans to pay for a top education that you feel will pay off in the long term is a good idea. Maxing out the visa so you can get a BJ from a chick who thinks bankers with over prices grey goose is the shit is moronic. I think you are missing Illini's point. It isn't that you should not invest or live, but spending all your money foolishly is not the best plan.
I feel as if your post does not even pertain to the discussion at hand.
While it may seem like the smart and practical thing to do, I have to totally disagree with OP. My mentor (family friend) is a partner level md at GS and I get the pleasure of having dinner with him once every few months when he is in California. Even while I was growing up, he told me to not worry about the little things in life such as saving money and being frugal. I thought he was fucking retarded when he told me that, but after hearing his explanations, it really made sense.
If you ask any guy who is at least 40 years old that has built himself a sizable net worth (>2M) based on hard work if he is willing to exchange $250,000 to be able to relive his youth (ages 22-28) again, he will say YES in a heartbeat. And $250,000 is a high estimate for the amount of money that one would save over the course of 6 years.
This mentor has discouraged me ever since freshman year from entering IB (as an analyst) and he refuses to help his son with getting an internship in IB. Instead, he pushes us to live life and make memories and then enter IB as an associate after b school if that's what we really want to do.
How much can you REALLY save during the first few years out of college? Maybe $30,000 a year? Once you make VP in your mid 30's you will make all the money that you would have saved by living frugally in a single month! So go out, piss away your measly analyst bonus, and enjoy life!
*obviously everyone should have a rainy day fund, but not as dramatic as Illiniprogrammer puts it.
All this tells me is that the grass is always greener. I'm sure that for every guy who wants to relive his youth because he "worked too hard", there is another that wants to relive his youth because he didn't work hard enough and is stuck in a dead end job living paycheck to paycheck for the rest of his life. Personal finance advice from a rich, successful guy, with a midlife crisis, should not be taken as gospel.
Can I get an "Amen?"
Regards
Nah, the first thing I do with savings will be to pay off my student loans. Period. Don't want those things to overtake my life if I let them drag on.
my $0.02:
I both agree and disagree with you, OP.
I mean, I spot on agree on what you suggests NOT to do, but I think that you go too far with your frugality.
What makes or breaks the whole thing is not how much you spend, but how you spend it. $400 for a night out is f**king stupid. But I think if you were to find an opportunity to spend $200 and have a great fun, that should be taken, provided of course that it leaves you enough resources to continue paying up your studend debts at a fast rate and that you have a nice chest for rainy days.
$200 in what? Well, the answer varies from person to person. For example, as Illini would probably agree, hangliding is awesome (don't know how much it costs in the US). If you were in London, given some planning, with $300 you could take a low cost flight to anywhere in Europe and have an awesome weekend with friends living there. As many others, said, $30-40 in the right places and the right company beat the $400 club 7 to 1.
Bottom point: don't be f**king stupid with your money, but don't play Scrooge either.
Still, if you are happy with a frugal style, and you feel you won't regret it later, go for it. Just don't do it out of paranoia.
IlliniProgrammer, you never cease to amaze me. Sound advice like this is how a person becomes wealthy. I always enjoy reading your posts, like I've said before.
A person's net worth will primarily be determined by how much they save. Investing is important, like you were saying. However, investing your own personal funds is the best, in the long run. The way you're living you'll be able to make some good investments while still staying out of too much personal debt. Plus, sounds like your hobbies won't give you STDs.
Living conservatively can be a great way to accumulate wealth.
What amazes me is how few bankers have a buffer of even a few months expenses ready. Assuming as a first year you're all in is 125, after taxes it's 75 and remember 42 of that is salary. You need to live off salary and squirrel the bonuses away. People got used to living off of them until the year they didn't come. And just like a people that survives on one food, when the salmon don't run, the potatoes get blight or the bonus check doesn't show they starve. It's important to have a few months of emergency savings and to toss some cash into the 401K. A minimum of 4 months of expenses preferably more should be put aside in case of a rainy day. Also paying $400 for a bottle of grey goose isn't appealing. I know I may be in the minority that don't drink, but it is so much cheaper. I go to a really nice restaurant and I'm out for under $50.
someone above got it right when they said its worth it to live closr to work. bankers should understand this economic concept: its not about the money per se, as much as the utility you ultimately get out of that money.
all the money you could save by living an extra 30 minutes away is like 1/10th of one years bonus if you excel and get promoted in finaince. makes a lot more sense to live closer.
ditto to all this don't drink live frugal stuff. this doesn't mean you should blow through money either though. use your common sense and make sure you have enough money to cover our obligations and potential emergencies. don't think saving on analyst drinking money is the path to long term wealth tho, its not. the point is just to enjoy as much as possible w/out going broke and while excelling at work.
gl
Ditto.
Ditto^2.
I have seen some of my banker counterparts whom have completed their analyst stint barely break even and some damn near broke. The ferragamo's, 1 br apartments with a phat view on park, and summer shares in the Hamptons. The Hamptons always pissed my off actually, because it strictly an image thing and it is teeming with gold digging chicks. My inner player couldn't fathom such a blatant act of trickin'. Hanging out there and speaking with the people made understand why no one likes wallstreet. But I digress...
Try to spend money on REAL experiences (traveling, weird adventures with friends) and personal investments (education). When its all said and done, life is nothing but memorable experiences. The people with the coolest experiences normally are the most interesting and driven people I have seen. Have you been to dinner or to an event with someone who has done some truly amazing sh-t and has good stories? Trust me, if you go drinking with your boss, it'd be better to speak to him about your time in the Himalaya's or your time at Grad School than talking about how lofty your 401K is.
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Very wise words. I wish I was as frugal.
Definitely agree on being frugal. There are right ways to do it- for example, until recently, I lived w/ roommates, but I didn't see this as a negative at all- coming home to an empty house seemed terribly depressing to me, and I chose my roommates carefully, and am still friends with most of them.
You should go to the clubs every now and then, just for the experience, and even get a table, just to see what its like. If you make a habit out of that though, you are a friggen moron and should really just give in and start going to whorehouses and massage parlors- its cheaper. I have never been a big fan of tables at clubs- you are going to clubs to meet new people right? Why would you pay extra for something that tends to keep you and your friends anchored in one place? Same w/ restaurants, go every once in a while, see what really awesome food is like, but don't make it a habit.
I have always found that its where you at, not who you are with that determines how good a time you have. Look back on what you consider to be the most fun nights you have ever had- was it because the DJ was so awesome, or you had a table at some expensive place? Or was it because your buddy (or perhaps you) got so shitfaced that he went home in a cab w/ some old cougar chick from Brooklyn and woke up not having a clue as to where he was or how to get home? The best times of my life were drinking beers out of a keg, or $1 buds, not $15 grey goose.
To me, saving is more about getting freedom- freedom from having to take your boss's shit, from paying a mortgage each month, freedom to tell your cell phone company that overcharged you for the 10th farking time to take their shady ass billing practices and shove it up their ass, and yes you can go report me and lower my credit score all the F you want, because I don't need credit anymore. Even when I get to that point, I will probably still work and all that, but knowing that I don't HAVE to, will be absolutely thrilling and lower my blood pressure.
IP,
Your "cognitive dissonance" comment in the "Ted thread" had me bawling. So many "players" so deep into the "game" they don't even realize how to "keep score".
I think the "aura" of NYC knocks a lot of younger kittens on their tails. You don't need me telling you that you've got the right attitude but you do.
Agree with the OP. But rather than socking away $ I bot a house in westchester after housing hit the shitter. My socking away I spoze is in my mortgage pmt. Rent is a fucking foolish waste of money if you're at all able to buy a house!
As someone who is an analyst @ a BB in S&T, and lives in one of the "nicer" parts of manhattan, my best advice is to save ALL or damn near close to all of your bonus. If you go to meatpacking one a weekend or every other weekend, you can still have an awesome time--also get hammered before, no need to get table service EVERY time, trust me getting laid isnt dependent on bottle service, at least if you can spit some game
My advice to anyone who is looking to cut a balance between saving and spending is to cut back on the things that only give temporary pleasure and invest in things that have long term value. Sure, a $500 night out with buddies might be fun, but the next morning its over and your fond memories will be no better than the guy who threw a house party with good friends.
For me, it's more about effective use of your money rather than whether or not you save it. I've got 3 years (yes, years) of living expenses sitting in the bank and I still manage to live a very expensive lifestyle. My wardrobe is fantastic, I've bought my girlfriend endless jewelry and clothing, I travel internationally pretty much every time I get a long weekend or vacation, and I have a great apartment and fully paid for car.
Since I started working 3+ years ago, I've probably only spent ~$5k on booze. Instead of going to incredibly fancy restaurants, I eat at places like T.G.I Fridays where I like the food but it is incredibly cheap compared to a steak dinner. To be honest, I like Chicken Bruschetta more than I like a Filet Mignon. These are the things that will be the difference between emptying your bank account and having a nice cushion.
Well, everyone who knows numerical methods - maths, should know what is Marginal Utility of Money? Money is what, what it gets you.. Perhaps, learnt is - its not pricing any VALUE, but evaluating the PRICE worth something..
But think of the idea of the salesman. If he is struggling, he doesn't downsize into a worse car and suit, he gets the new car and new suit. It's all about positive signals! Signalling is needed to info assymetries. You must project an air of success in life; it will become reinforcing.
I disagree. I think you're telling a lie to yourself an to others.
It's good to be positive, but smart money can see folks lying about success through their teeth from a mile away, and we respect honesty. Sure, get a new suit and project a positive vibe. Don't get the new car. The $50K you spend is money that could otherwise be helping you sleep at night.
IP, doesn't a good chunk of financial activity (IBD, S&T, PWM, AM, take your pick) revolve around pushing products and services on people and companies that may not really need them, and then taking a cut of that? Sales (of sometimes unnecessary stuff) is such a big part of this business model, and it's not as easy for the average client to tell the good and bad apart.
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