The weak post-MBA finance job market
What's going on here? I'm a 2nd year at a M7 b-school graduating soon, and aside from banking, finance job market has been horrendous. On-campus recruiting was mostly banks and some long-only mutual funds. The people who wanted banking got it, but aside from that there are very few job postings and opportunities getting posted. A ton of my classmates gunning for IM, PE, HF, AM, are still looking.
It's disturbing since 2013 and 2014 were much better for finance MBAs. Although the U.S. economy is doing OK, finance has been getting slaughtered. My theory is that since banks and funds had a bad 2014, they are severely limiting hiring for 2015 (the opposite of 2010-2011 when they overhired).
For IM and AM the flavor of the moment is passive. Think that has something to do with it as well. And generally this type of business runs lean. You can ramp up AUM significantly without having to add headcount.
Yeah I agree with that. ETFs, index funds, and alternatives are pretty hot right now, but those are not traditional post-MBA jobs, and they run super lean.
I wasn't referring to passive investing as post-MBA jobs...more like the inflow of assets into that asset class leads to less jobs in active (or closet indexing) management.
What I'm hearing is different. It may well be the case that they aren't hiring much for positions that focus on portfolio management at your school, but I've also talked to a couple of people at tier 2 1/2 and tier 3 (strong regional schools ranked from 15 to 30) and they've had the opposite problem. One acquaintance at Stern said that the hiring in AM/PWM jobs was great. I've also got another friend who just nabbed a PWM internship with a well known firm from an unranked MBA program. While there aren't a huge number of jobs out there the ones they have available outnumber the students who want to go into those jobs....granted that a lot of these are PWM jobs.
If I had to guess I'd say that given the decline of PWM at most top tier business schools, recruiters have started to focus their attention at lower ranked institutions where they have more interest.
You know that comparing PWM internships to full-time recruiting in hedge funds, PE and top mutual funds isn't even close to a valid comparison right? A large part of getting those jobs at lower tier schools is because they aren't considered desirable jobs at top schools. I think I know 1 or 2 people at my school who wanted PWM and are going there full time.
Read more closely:
If you want to manage other people's money, PWM is where the jobs are right now and people in M7 schools just don't want those jobs.
The disclaimer to the next part is that I don't know this firsthand but some of my Army buddies who work in the field(they're reservists) have seconded that an MBA is becoming less desirable for jobs in the AM track. They're gravitating towards hardcore quants with MS's and PHD's.
I think it depends on which school you go to. Honestly, if you're gunning for PE / good ls hf's, you're running an uphill battle if you don't go to harvard, wharton or stanford.
I work at an Asset Management firm that only has active management products and we are expanding.
We have some MBAs but we seem to prefer a CFA/MFin/Experience over an MBA.
I think I warned you this would happen. Spending $160K on an M7 MBA does not guarantee you will land some elite job and live happily ever after.
Nor does landing some elite job guarantee you will live happily ever after and your next employer won't be the Rockefeller Center McDonald's.
Your life and your career is not a product of prestige, but rather what you make of it. (Though some luck may be involved) So go out there, be humble, be practical, find a job, and then work hard to deliver a good value on your services.
This. I've avoided business school like the plague in my career because of this scenario. Remember, you're not just contending with other MBAs, you're also contending with non-MBAs that may have more experience than you. And even if you do land an elite job, you still need to be good at it.
I think this hit the nail on the head. So you have an MBA...so what? What are you going to do to make your bosses life easier? What's your value add to the company?
I've said this before on here, although i dont know your age, im going to assume your in your mid 20's. This "holier than thou" mentality is poison. I apologies in advance if this is genuinely not your intention, but it sure seems that way.
I think what illiniprogrammer said about being humble is whats neccisary. this reminds me of the 16 year old me, Draft year into major junior hockey. I thought i was the hottest shit since sliced bread but i got very rude wake up call come draft day. I was lucky i had good counsel around me (mentor/parents/friends) who looked at my situation from an objective perspective and told me how it was. I was butt hurt for a few weeks after that but it was probably the greatest advice i've ever received and probably one of the best business lessons in my life.
What you have on your business card, means about as much as what i had for lunch 3 weeks ago.
Many MBA's i feel have some sort of "entitlement" to higher pay due to their education. Hell, i bet you guys are miles smarter than the non-mba (maybe not). but guess what, you're a revenue consumer. You are a cost to that particular business. Think about that for a minute.
I wouldn't say that recruiting for IM/PE/HF/AM any year is easy at bschool. I think a lot of people go into an MBA program, tops one too, thinking they will be able to make the switch to those sectors - "gunning" or not. Simple fact remains is that unless one was in IM/PE/HF/AM before school its extremely unlikely that that transition is gonna happen. Even with experience in the sector it isn't easy to break back in. So more my theory would be that people had unrealistic expectations entering school. M&A is up, equities have been ripping, and the loan market is still frothy - I wouldn't say finance is getting slaughtered by any means.
Yes, M&A did great, but I think that will die down as rates go up and financing costs along with it. As for the equity market, it's doing well mostly due to QE and share buybacks. Corporate eps are fairly strong, but I don't think that translates that well into the health of the broader economy or more specifically, the state of the post-MBA job market.
From talking to classmates and alumni from both my school and other top programs, this is the worst finance market for MBAs in 5 years. It's absolutely brutal.
And this is the reason why I decided to do a two-year weekend MBA. I'm lucky enough to live and work within 30 minutes of a top 10 MBA program. My company is paying 100% of the tuition, with the agreement that I stay here for two years after I graduate. It's a sweet deal: no foregone income, no debt, a guaranteed job, no relocation required, two years extra experience vs. a full time MBA. This is why the top schools are really beefing up their part time programs.
Dude, this is a sweet deal.
Question for you -- did your company offer to cover it in full? Mine offers ~$10k/calendar year plus 2 year commitment after finishing. The p/t programs I want cost around $110K for the 2.5-3 years. I don't want to pay the $70K-$80K difference. Any tips on how to get additional cost covered by the company?
Yes the company covers it in full (which will come out to about $57k per year) It's standard policy for top achievers; no negotiating necessary. I'm looking at it as an extra $57k in income for the two years after I finish while I'm locked in from moving. Depending on how small of a firm you work for and the HR policies, I would negotiate to have them cover the full cost. I don't understand $10k per year...its almost laughable considering how much MBAs cost. It is not only to your benefit but your employers benefit as well for you to get an MBA. Youll add more value to the firm. That's how I would frame the negotiation.
I have recruiters contacting me constantly about AM/PE positions available in New York. They mention how 'hot' the market is every time I talk to them.
I would really like to hear CompBanker's perspective on this.
This thread somehow reminds me of the good old days on WSO.
Care to enlighten those that weren't around for the 'good old days?'
Be MBA Grad 2015 Goes to M7 Interacts with futures best business leaders Gets a job that will probably turn into 7 - 8 figure a year compensation plan in the next few years. Will end up driving BMW 6 series If Single will have models and bottles. If Marries Still might have models and bottles. Vacation ski home in Vail/ Aspen, and summer vacation pad in spain/ greece
Still gets on WSO and complains about the lack of opportunity .....
True ballers vacation in Croatia
True Ballers on a budget go to either Estonia or Latvia. Hotter girls, cheaper drinks. You can buy a 15 bedroom private estate for under 2 million
VERY few MBAs, regardless of school, will see 7 figures/year compensation, EVER. Go look at the comp figures of top MBA grads 10 and 20 years out. The numbers are a lot lower than what you would think.
MBA is great in many ways, and I enjoyed my experience. I certainly don't regret doing it, but too many people go into top programs with unrealistic expectations.
It's funny how clueless people are. Education rarely makes you rich; it's designed for risk-averse individuals that are satisfied as wage earners. The wealthy are those that aren't satisfied with wages. I know individuals who never went to school, can barely speak a word of English and who would drive off of a bridge if their incomes fell to $200,000/year.
Very few of any people will ever see 7 figure incomes but it seems to be the consensus amongst undergrads on WSO that because they went to a top school they'll be making 7 figures by their early 30's if they "decide" to be a schlub and stay in IB to become an MD at the Goldman (as if that's easy or guaranteed) or accept a job in PE/HF and work 80 hour weeks, of course after they go to HBS or Stanford. Or they'll settle for mid 6 figures by their early to mid 30's at a comfy 40 hour/wk job with no travel. Or they'll found/join a startup and cash a big paycheck in a couple of years. Because it's really easy to make millions, that's why everyone does it.
Congrats on the job.
Actually... judging by how many mid market companies I've seen.... its kinda shocking how easy a 10-30 million dollar payout can be lol (not to say the effort they put in isn't a lot)
If you mean $10-30MM payouts from starting a company and selling it, very, very few people will get to that point no matter how much work they put into it. Especially at a young age.
In the startup/VC/tech world, how many seed level companies actually succeed to any degree? Very few. Very few series A co's even make it. And if you're not on the founding team the chances of getting any meaningful equity to cash an 8 figure check is very rare unless you're brought in as a pre-IPO CFO for a company that sells for a billion. Or you have the incredible mix of talent and luck (primarily luck) to get in at an early stage of the next planet wrecker like MSFT or Apple in the mid 70's, Compaq in the 80's, a Yahoo, AOL, eBay or Amazon in the mid 90's (and sold out at the right time), Google in the late 90's or FB in the early '00s. The verdict is still out on the over inflated Uber's of today, but for every one of these companies (or the Whatsapps that somehow sold at those valuation) there are thousands of tech companies that didn't make it. Can you make $10-30MM off of these types of co's? Yes. But it's very far and few between and involves an incredible amount of luck no matter how hard you work.
In simpler industries, the ones that I typically deal with, I'd say most of the sellers who cash decent checks are from family businesses that they inherit and grow (or don't grow), or from guys who start a business and grow it over decades, so when they cash and 8 or 9 figure check they're in their 50's, 60's or beyond. Yes there are exceptions, but they're just that, the exception.
I'm about 40, most of the people in my social circle have top notch undergrads, half of them seem to have gone to Wharton or HBS and have all the great names on their resumes-McKinsey, Bain, GS, MS, different HF's and PE's, F500's and some have started businesses-and out of probably 50-100, maybe 5 or 10 could be considered wealthy (and I live in non-NYC but one of the wealthier burbs in the country, so this doesn't include any real "normal" people). And a few of those are more like 50+. It's just way outside the norm even with top notch credentials to sell a company and make $10-30MM or be making 7 figures a year.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
I'm only a few years out of a top school (undergrad) and for all the consulting and banking tunnel vision, people seem to be all over the place even a couple of years later. It's hard to know what you want to do at 22, even harder at 18.
By WSO standards I'm at a very non-sexy job (hah) but my company has a good number of former bankers and lawyers who gave up the grind because they had kids or whatever. The more senior people are all gone by 6:30, almost no weekends, infrequent travel, clearing enough to live a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle in an expensive non-NY city...but on this forum that is apparently the nightmare.
It's inflation Dick. $1M is the new $100k. Who doesn't make $10MM a few years out of grad school? You're a fucking piker if you're not at least bringing down 5 large a year by 33...
And a 6 Series at that type of money? Come on, if you're dreaming big, at least go for a Bentley instead of a BMW...
This thread has been interesting.
UIUC Engineering Master's programs had a 90% placement rate last year.
You can always get an MS in engineering from a state school. It's cheap and effective.
If you want to do engineering or tech, that makes sense.
Just to be blunt.. If you didnt go into the MBA with PE/HF experience you shouldnt expect to get an interview. Career changers are at a severe disadvantage considering a bulk of the kids with PE and HF experience pre-mba cant even get back post-mba. Just being fair. there may be a one-off case somewhere but its just that.
There is no reason for PE funds to be growing headcount. Everyone is sitting on a fuckton of dry powder. A lot of '14 and early '15 funds are 100% UNinvested. We had a recent process that had 30-40 1st round bids. Everyone is trying to deploy capital and cant find opportunities to.
Dry powder aside more and more funds are direct promoting top kids. While other kids from MFs will just take a step down and go post-mba at a smaller fund. Just how it works. Buyside recruiting isnt structured and isnt like Banking/Consulting. These places arent going to say "we are going to hire 5 people every year" out of MBA programs.
In addition the kids that fit the mold for these roles and end up there likely do so through their own network. Caveat Im not in an MBA but Id wager that Carlyle wont post on OCR. The kids they would want and would want to go there would reach out on their own
Yup. This is right.
To get into the right finance track, you need to do so post-college, not post-MBA. The age threshold is getting lower and lower (not surprising that mba admissions has followed suit), and past a certain age you're just not gonna get in regardless of where you do your MBA. Aside from consulting/F500/banking, an MBA is very overrated for career transitions.
Also. Mad props to Dingdong08 100% on point. Im at an EB and everyone more or less expects to end up making $1mm+ a year. And assume being an MD and just cashing checks is owed to them for "putting up with banking hours"
Idk Id dog deeper and say there is an entitlement factor attributable to going to a target school then going to a Goldman or McKinsey. Those kids in general have a lack of passion and drive.
I don't think a lot of younger people on WSO realize how few people actually make into the millions, even on Wall Street, and how competitive and difficult it is to rise to the top of the IB or PE game, or really any profession. The skills that make a good analyst or associate (or the skills to get those jobs) really don't matter anymore. It's not about credentials or the almighty prestige or even about working really long hours. As you get to the VP/Director and above level, depending on the firm, it's purely about results and producing revenue, that's fees if you're a banker and doing good deals in PE. You could be a state school kid with no MBA, have no excel skills and hardly be able to open powerpoint, but if you can bring in deals and/or dollars, you'll advance and stick around. If you don't, you're out (the "up or out" thing is real) and even if you make it to the top and for some reason stop producing, you will be gone. That is why it's really difficult to get to the seven figure club and why so few people actually do. And no one will pay large sums of money to anyone if they're not bringing in lots of money and why salaries are pretty low compared to overall comp: it's all about performance.
But DabbzMAn, don't worry because no one gets passively promoted up the food chain without delivering results. If someone has a sense of entitlement, they'll just be fired. Maybe they make it through their analyst or associate gig but they're going nowhere from there. And a lot of people realize that and get out of the game.
Also depends on where you're working I think. You could make it to MD or the highest level and still not be making 7 figures, depending on your employer, compensation structure and which area of finance you're actually in. And even if you're lucky enough to make 7 figures it's not liquid money and bags of cash, it's a lot of equity shares/stock options, with restrictions. And even if you somehow against all odds manage to make 7 figures liquid cash one year there is no guarantee you will make it the next and won't have to give up what you did get on divorce settlement, alimony, and lawyer fees. Good stuff
That's a complaint which has been passed to me from recruiters via the director of a professional association that I belong. Specifically they run into a lot of young kids who think that they're owed a six figure salary just because they went to a "prestigious" school and don't understand that they're paid to produce for the firm. It's a bad combination of entitlement mentality and consumer mentality. Very few people these days are fundamentally in the mindset of being producers who add value.
Your use of caps for emphasis reminds me of another M7 MBA I know.
Welcome back Brady
Sensing some buyer's remorse on the 300k dropped...I guess in the debate of mba vs mfin a clear winner has emerged
As I said before, I'm not Brady, but feel free to make bizarre accusations.
Not Brady dude. Also I came nowhere close to spending $300K. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. Finally, I have no regrets doing an MBA. Despite some of its limitations, it's a valuable degree to have, and I have thoroughly enjoyed my experience.
I think the biggest issue with the MSF is that it cost half the price of an MBA, but not a single pay bump is given coming into the work place. Long run will it pay off? Yes of course. Will that Help you when you come out of school with 70k extra in debt? Probably not.
On item that is being ignored is doing the proper research before school and choosing a school that fits you and your goals. This will be a big determinant in how happy you are with your MBA and the job prospects to which you have access. Make sure you really understand the differences in a part-time program before doing that over full-time. If you believe in efficient markets and want to do quantitative work or asset allocation maybe don't go to a school known for its value investing pedigree. Those students who want to do fundamental equity and credit work are quite happy with the classes offered. Jobs are coming later this year for non-OCR but in the last few weeks things have picked up and most people I talk to are quite happy with the offers they are getting. Certainly the school carries some blame but there is also personal responsibility in choosing the right program.
Name dropping colleges and funds. This screams Brady. Who cares you did not get your PE / HF job? I am sure your jacket with your M7 school logo on screams mad swagger with chicks?
I added you to my feed Brady, looking forward to a new chapter of MAD SWAGGER
This is 100% Brady. Embrace it, don't deny it.
Deleted. Clearly wasn't constructive
For starters, you boasted about your high salary three times in one post on an anonymous internet forum.
Don't know that I'm necessarily boasting about it as much as I'm trying to illuminate the fact that it's way too much money for somebody to be discontent with and I'm trying to reconcile how irrational that is...
It all starts to make more sense when you decide to move to Provence.
I'll never understand the brady fetish on these fora
So damn true. Dingdong08
I disagree, I've seen some people at Kellogg with NO relevant work experience get some nice buyside jobs. I had a friend who worked at Accenture, and a friend who did CPG/Marketing get MM PE jobs this week.
How is Accenture considered "NO relevant experience"???
Those are extremely rare cases.
@opsdude1, @compbanker,how about PE outside of the US? Is it equally competitive, or is it easier to obtain a job offer there without prior PE experience?
Depends where. If you're from an emerging country and want to go back, it seems fairly easy. Lots of Brazilians got into PE in Brazil with no experience.
I'm at a T10 school and have quiet a few classmates (including myself) still looking for finance gigs both buy-side and sell-side.
I knew it was Brady immediately when I saw his thread about fund of funds.
Speaking of which, why did mbavsmfin get banned?
if your goal is to go buyside after graduation, I'm not convinced that an MBA is all that helpful whatsoever. I have several friends who went the M7 MBA route from solid backgrounds (BB banking>decent PE/BDC>MBA) and out of those only one is in a hedge fund position that he would have had trouble getting without the degree, and this is only after setting up 50+ interviews and networking his ass off during the time he spent at a top 3 program. Candidly he basically told me that the value of the MBA was having a 2 year vacation during which he could network, which was still ultimately done outside of the school's alumni network, primarily.
I do, however, see the value in it for those coming from "alternative" backgrounds to get into banking or consulting. It seems like the placement is still fairly good for associate-level IB and whatever the equivalent is for consulting firms. Not to mention corp dev, F500 type jobs - though I have no experience in these spaces.
If you intend to go the hedge fund route, I would suggest getting to know the players in your preferred strategy space on a personal level so that when slots open up you are one of the first calls for an interview. No amount of additional credentialing is going to supplant that type of connection, unfortunately. The only way to do this if you don't have a strong industry network from some prior personal or professional experience is try to get yourself a seat at idea dinners or through "friend-of-a-friend" connections, though it is easy to make yourself look like a total mook if you're not prepared to deliver some punch if they ask what you can really bring to the table.
My experience on the buyside has basically shown me it is far more of a "who you know" game than most would care to admit - there is no "magic formula" for background that will get you one of those seats. I've also seen a number of analyst backgrounds that look fantastically impressive on paper (GS/BX>KKR/TPG types) yet they're languishing at unspectacular hedge funds. Hell, I know for a fact that several funds that do make rounds on-campus only do so as a means to mine free stock pitches...
You nailed it. The primary benefit of MBA is the access to OCR for career switchers who want to go into consulting, banking, F500, general management. For non-ocr jobs you're pretty much on your own, and the school's career services is of almost no help. Come to think of it, it's almost criminal how MBA tuition is given that the increase in tuition is funding a bloated administration and staff. How many deans and administrators does a school need? They are pretty worthless and add very little value to the school.
The ROI of top business schools is huge, it's worth the cost. I got my goal job from my MBA program (well, internship at-least), and the vast majority of other people at M7 find a well paying job in the field they want. I hope this thread doesn't convince people not to attend, because its both an amazing time and an amazing investment.
Depends on the program. I know for a fact from talking to students in several Tier 2/3 programs that career services will go out of their way to help students who are seeking jobs not represented by OCR. One way in which they'll do that is by contacting alumni in companies/roles that aren't hiring on campus.
Can someone provide a TL;DR history on Brady and why he is soo disliked on these forums?
It's amazing how different reality was vs. expectations for Brady for business school. Also, very predictable given the lofty/unrealistic expectations of both the swagger it would induce in him with hiring firms and with single ladies.
Grass is greener and all that other bullshit about putting the rest of the world on a pedestal. He'd find a way to hate to hate Stanford on a free-ride.
Opportunity costs.
I'm not at the point where I'm considering B-School yet, and honestly I'm not sure that I want to go. One piece of advice someone gave in a cold call coffee chat was "Don't go to business school unless you know exactly why you want to go." Which is to say there are a lot of smart, accomplished people who saw it as the natural "next step" in some poorly conceived ladder and have suboptimal results. So to OpsDude's point, I'm sure there is a lot of value if you go out there and hustle and use it as a stepping stone to what you actually want to do.
I have my reservations about the undergraduate business degree in principle, but at the same time everyone goes to college. When you're sinking ~$200k into an MBA, I don't know, I feel like you have to be much more certain about what you want.
Honestly, I know a SHIT TON of people at Kellogg who had no idea what they wanted to, or at best, some "fuzzy idea." Plenty of them decided on Consulting or IB in late October and got internships. The figure is that about 50% of people will end up recruiting for a different field than they put on their application
It's best to have more exact plans. but I think the advice that you NEED to know what you want to do is a bit over-rated. That said, things happen fast. So you should at-least have the background on a few different career choices, so you can hit the ground running once coffee chats start.
The people who I see get screwed the most are people who are SURE they want to do MBB consulting from day-1...and then don't apply anywhere else or consider other options. Then they strike out, and it's too late to apply at most places.
Hell, the reason 1/3 of top business students go into consulting is because they have no idea what they want to do.
"MBA's Graduate into the Best Job Market in a Decade" - Posted by Bloomberg today - I think that might end the discussion. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-19/mbas-are-graduating-i…
To anyone who thinks 7 figure salaries are easily attainble, you are likely gonna end up eating a steady diet of government cheese and living in a van down by the river!
Can anyone confirm if Brady's assessment of the job market for buyside (PE, HF, and long-only AM) jobs is true? MBAGrad2015, did you have relevant work experience prior to Booth? I thought you were a trader?
Life is what you make it... @MBAGrad2015" if you really really really want to break into IM, PE, HF, AM, keep trying until you make it. Even the fishing guide could break into a hedge fund....
it is somewhat comforting knowing people are having similar struggles job hunting. what i have learned is there is no guarantee going to School X and getting an offer at whatever BB/PE/HF/AM so if you expect something, only expect to be disappointed when you finally realize you're not entitled to anything.
for those who mentioned that AM/HFs are starting to go more towards MFE backgrounds, i can offer my experience. i have a heavy quant background (physics undergrad with a ton of theoretical research) and did a MFE at a top 10 program. i was able to land a AM job after graduation at a well known 2nd tier firm (a multi-strat PM role). with the way the buyside is going (big data/high frequency trading/ect) programming skills are becoming essential (plus excel is extremely inefficient). i believe other firms are realizing like mine the usefulness of quantitative skills and are making it a priority to recruit those skill sets. firms are likely getting tired of hiring MBAs that struggle for weeks gathering data or building models that can be done in a days or hours. as for what HFs are looking for, i am at a loss. seeing as i am currently trying to make the jump from AM to HF and either get no response or get told by macro HF recruiters i dont have the background they are looking for. and idk where people got this assumption that they would be making 7 figures by their early 30s but whatever they are smoking ill take some
Obviously I'm only one data point but I have never received more calls/emails from headhunters for HF & PE jobs. The market is absolutely hot right now and my friends who graduated recently are heading to good buyside firms.
Perhaps the issue is you, Brady? I'm not that surprised that a prestige-oriented psychopath with dozens of alts across multiple message boards and without an impressive finance resume is finding it difficult to land a decent gig.
yes one data point does not make a trend, but congrats if you are getting a ton of interest. make the most of it. i believe my situation makes it much more difficult since i am focusing on a particular region (Los Angeles) and therefore have drastically limited the number of potential firms.
idk who "Brady" is, but i envy a guy who has enough free time for multiple online identities
I also think the market is fairly strong right now. I would be surprised if a top tier MBA program was having trouble getting placements.
Sometimes there are cultural differences that get in the way. I can see how someone who is normal in NYC finance might come off as a little pathological at a CA firm.
An MBA student?thats a fair point, but i wasnt an MBA grad nor do i currently work in NYC. to the point of the entire thread, i do not believe the market is particularly weak...perhaps more selective given the amount of applicants and the search for the "perfect fit"
How's the market for corporate finance at a F500 post-MBA? Is it any good?
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