I feel like I am settling for less. How do I convince myself otherwise?
I recently received an offer from my summer internship for FT.
I had a pretty good experience, people were nice, the group generally had a progressive atmosphere. The firm has a growing presence in the US, but its very large globally. (Not a BB but still up there). The analyst class exists but its small enough for me to feel like I can make a difference. After pondering all of these elements and looking at the relatively bleak outlook of FT recruiting (at least in areas I was interested in), I decided to sign a couple of weeks later.
However, now that I am back at school, I can't help but honestly feel a little greedy. I look at some opportunities on our OCR and think: What if I could've been elsewhere? Will my firm get me where I want to be in grad school a couple years down the road? Am I settling? Could I have gotten a better opportunity?
Has anyone else felt this way? It's driving me nuts. I don't know what to do or how to get over it.
Push the envelope as far as you can. If it makes you feel any better, before I even started my first internship I was contacting other companies with the intention of leveraging the upcoming internship towards something else a few weeks after it started. I've calmed down, maybe too much, but you get the point.
This is really nothing to feel guilty about.
Why don't you just apply and see if you can get better? Reneging is really not a big deal, despite what naysayers may say.
Just be careful. High finance is the smallest of worlds.
Exactly as BTbanker said. Be careful but you should try other places, at least the interviews.
Yes...that's the scary part! I don't want to be on bad terms with any place. It seems quite risky. The group is very welcoming and I don't think they would be amused with this.
Settle for less vs. tunnel vision (Originally Posted: 08/05/2014)
Just wondering what people think about a first job and how specific you should be in trying to find exactly what you want. I know some recommend even going for a MO/BO role if you can't get into FO but I find that a tough idea to accept.
More specifically in my case I'm referring to product class in trading. I'm very interested in a macro type desk - FX, Rates, Commodities - but I'm currently interning in Credit. Whilst I think I'm doing well and the internship is going well, I'm finding it hard to come across as VERY passionate about the product. Whilst a lot of the work is similar as a junior/intern, I feel like my passionate for macro would help me a ton, something which is lacking here.
With applications coming up, of course I'll apply to as many as possible but I feel like passion is something that is very hard to fake but is also very desirable. Should you settle for less if need be or do you work on getting a job where you want/in the product you want?
A decision only you can make for yourself - there is no answer to this question, it depends on circumstance and the person involved.
Job Search: Down to the wire...should I settle? (Originally Posted: 12/22/2011)
Looking for FT post graduation. I need some advice, I had various opportunities to work on an ops desk in many BBs...but I don't want to settle for a back office job. It's too hard to get out and not many exit opportunities. What do you think, should I settle? I strive to become a PM one day. I'm applying to multiple AM analyst programs at BBs, hedge funds, mutual funds. I'm from a non-target, 3.8 GPA, various internships (JPM, GS, ML), graduated top of my class as a first generation college student. Asked to stay on at two of the firms I interned with, but its not the asset class or area I want to be in. Thoughts?
If the offers that you received at the firms you interned with are investment management/banking then it is a step in the right direction and better than an ops role at a BB regardless of asset class.
Agree with Relinquis. One mutual fund analyst in my town (west coast firm, PM for details) said he started in fixed income at a previous firm and then transitioned to equities. It definitely can be done.
Should I settle? (Originally Posted: 04/14/2013)
I've been a lurker for awhile and appreciate all the awesome information I've gotten off the site. Anyway, I would really like the thoughts of people in the industry on my situation.
I've left a position (due to personal reasons (something I wouldn't be faulted for)) and am now looking for work. I have an offer for a position in ops at a BB but have no real interest in the work. Based on just my background and the current hiring situation, would it be wise to just take the job or keep looking? I'm not looking for an area that is as competitive as ibanking. I'd be happy with almost any engaging role in banking, but probably not corp fin. I've only been applying for a month so I don't want to jump the gun. At the same time, if I'm not a competitive applicant, I might as well seize this opportunity and look to transition out of it later.
Okay, about me: Currently in a large US city Complete non-target, 3.9 GPA in Finance and Economics, passed level 1 CFA 1.5 years of quality credit analyst experience at an unknown boutique Ops internship experience No good connections at the moment
Thanks guys!
how long could you go without working? what are your long-term goals? don't know what the personal reasons are but that shit almost never looks good. that combined with not having something lined up after you quit has red flag written all over it but once again it really depends on why you left. if you have any specific long-term goals, think about how taking an ops role fits into that after 1.5 years of MO/FO experience looks like and factors into those goals.
I could probably go 6 months without working. I know leaving without another role looks bad, and I'm being vague but I left the previous position on good terms if that means anything. Ideally, I'd like to go into credit or equity research but realize that I might have to get an MBA in a few years to do that. Right now, I'll go for anything that actually offers some relevant learning experience in the markets. I mean, ops really doesn't fit in but based on the limited information I gave you, I wonder if I would be lucky to even find something at a bank and should just suck it up for a few years.
dont know anything about you beyond what you posted in here but i'm almost certain you will be able to find another ops role in six months if you needed to. ops looks like a step backwards and will lead to scrutiny after that role. hiring is uncertain in so many ways right now that all this shit could end up not mattering but i'd wait it out and keep hustling. how unknown is the boutique?
The BB name would probably look great on your resume even if it's Ops, and you'd have an entire BB to network with. Being in Ops would also probably give you enough free time to finish up your CFA.
Why wouldn't you take the job and keep looking?
here's a great post recently about the benefits of working in the back office:
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/5-benefits-to-being-in-the-back-office
yes you should
Time to settle? (Originally Posted: 08/14/2009)
Alright, one of the things that I like about this forum is the no-BS, non-sugarcoated advice, so just give it to me straight. I'm one of the unfortunate bastards to graduate this past May, and as of yet, I'm still jobless. My original plan was equity research, but I've since opened up to sales & trading and prop trading (legit firms, not firms like SMB Capital) just to be able to get a front office job.
I'm not a quitter. The thing is, pretty much every boutique and every regional firm that I've tried getting in touch with isn't hiring at the moment. Because of that, I was thinking about going to a temp agency and trying to get some finance-ish, maybe operations at a commercial bank or something. That clearly isn't my ultimate career aspiration, but I got to pay the bills somehow and I don't want to be living at home forever. All that said, I do know that once you start down the back-office non-institutional finance path, many have said that it's hard to transition to an equity research position without an MBA.
So just give it to me straight guys. Time to settle, or what? If I don't have something by September, I'm probably going to need to start thinking about something else just for personal finance reasons.
Forgot to post, but I got a 3.0 in economics, business minor, from a target. Had an accounting internship between sophomore and junior years. Solid extracurriculars (investment club, business fraternity, and started a student-run campus business publication).
don't go back office...look into other careers, doing something real. get an MBA, and roll back in. finance is better post MBA anyways
Like what? What jobs would allow you to get into finance post-MBA (even though you didn't do finance pre-MBA)?
In particular I'd try to see if you could get an entry level industry corp finance job. Not that they are easy to get, but obviously every company of a certain size has one of these departments, making there more potential hiring firms out there than banks. Also, like other people above have said, it's not where you start, it's where you end up. That being said if you start in a back office job, you can move to the front office-- but it will probably take a lot of networking and research/studying time on your end.
To reiterate what IAmTensai said, you don't have to start in IB to end up there. My MD went from accounting > MBA > head of acquisitions at a REIT > IB. He is extremely successful. Some of my senior VPs did not start in IB. One of them from a Big 4, and another was head of development for a corporation.
Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll see what I can do. I've also been looking into government positions that have a finance-ish aspect, like Treasury and SEC.
treasury / cfo stuff at f500 corps can be pretty juicy also look into commodities guys like cargill and... who's the one in ct? louis dreyfus?
lots of commodities shops down south. Trafigura, Glencore, EDF(might be EDS always mix it up), etc.
With a 3.0 get any job you can. I know kids at MIT with the median who are jobless (or still looking).
Count your blessings.
^I agree with 1styearbanker, many people dont even have jobs. take what you can get.
Help! I've made a terrible mistake by settling (Originally Posted: 09/16/2013)
Hi Monkeys, I graduated this past May from a non-target studying finance in Washington DC. Originally, I wanted to get into a finance related field and eventually down the road make my way to both San Francisco and the Venture Capital world. However, I received an offer doing Federal strategy consulting in one of the larger firms, (think Booz Allen Hamilton/Deloitte etc.). And at the time while I disliked the public sector, I took the offer because I drank the firm’s kool aid, met with some partners who talked up this opportunity and its benefits and thought, hey, job market’s pretty tough, I should take this. I figured the name on the resume would help greatly and I could develop some core consultant skills that would help me no matter where I went. So I took it early senior year and never bothered looking for anything else.
Well that was a huge mistake. I’m pretty much flat out miserable. I don’t mean to offend anyone who has been or is in the public sector, but I simply hate the work I’m doing. I think it’s incredibly boring and I have no interest whatsoever trying to do this work. I’m getting no satisfaction at all from this job. I think at this point, even the IB grind seems more attractive – I’d rather be updating models and making pitch books pulling ridiculous hours then the work I'm doing now. I don’t want to sound like this whiny spoiled kid: I get you have to put in your time of grunt work, but it’d help if I had even an ounce of interest in whatever I was doing. It also doesn't help with the lack of things DC has to offer after being here for five years. I simply have no motivation to be here.
So at this point, I’m not sure what to do, I’m at a loss. I want to get out. I feel like I’m missing some huge opportunities if I put up with it for a few years then do an MBA or something. In addition, it’s incredibly hard to transfer to their commercial practice / other roles. How do I go about restarting this job search and looking for something that aligns better with my goals?
TL:DR; Took a Federal consulting job at a large firm, hate it, want to get out and refocus on goal - what's a good process of starting this?
I interned at a federal contractor back in the day and I completely understand you. I was miserable and thank god I got out. Too be honest, you don't have many transferable skills unless you have some finance exposure. What type of consulting do you now? Depending on your experience you might be able to transfer to strategy or management consulting.
I interned at a small Asset Management that ran a few small funds including a late-stage VC fund that I participated in. In addition I do Strategy based consulting for this firm
Nice, now just leak some documents to the guardian and I guarantee you your life will be much more exciting.
Step 1: Take a deep breath. Step 2: Put in 2 years of good quality work, get some good references, and get into b school. Step 3: After your first year, do an internship in banking, and do well enough to land a full-time offer.
Really not that difficult if you apply yourself.
You should consider yourself lucky for not going into banking as an analyst. What an awful experience that would be.
If all else fails this is what I'll be doing. But I'd really rather not throw away 2-3 years working doing something I loathe only to get back into B-School. I feel like I'll be missing a lot of opportunities going this route.
Ausenna, the more time you spend in this role, the more it will overshadow your previous internship in AM. Trust me on this. This is because employers will want to know what you do now. Also don't listen to the guy above about putting in 2 years. If you don't like what you do, find a way out. Did you build a netowrk at your previous internship? Use it. There are tons of VC funds in D.C. especially those in clean energy. Attend events as much as you can.
Bumping this. How hard is it to switch industries like back to IB?
I'm probably going to be interviewing with the firm you're talking about in the exact same position you're in now. I'll shoot you a pm...
Did I Settle Too Low? (Originally Posted: 05/03/2013)
Rising junior, accepted a SA BB internship in Ops. I come from a non-target, but I am transferring to a target for the Fall semester (think UVA, NYU Stern, UMich, etc.). I feel like I might've settled for an internship that pays well and comes with a BB name, but my experience is going to, suck, for lack of a better word. I probably won't learn anything useful in Ops. Past experience includes my first summer doing a PWM internship, now this summer with the SA Ops, and I am President of three clubs, tons of EC's, etc. GPA of 3.95 from the non-target. End goal is to get a SA IBD role for the next summer.
With my new school and the current experience I have given, am I in a good position for Fall recruiting? Can I use my non-target GPA with my new target school on my resume for the Fall? Finally, should I have tried to get a better internship for this summer? Thanks.
You probably couldve landed a boutique/MM IB SA.
Did you recruit for IB, or was Ops your only offer? If it was your only offer than it's better than nothing. However if you accepted the first thing that came your way, then you shorted yourself especially since Ops is not what you're aiming for. I think you definitely have a solid shot at a boutique/MM IB SA as above has mentioned .
It was the first thing I interviewed for this past November, and received an offer the week before Thanksgiving. I guess I was a little naive and took the first thing offered to me. I am trying to see where I stand going into the Fall recruiting season given my new school and the experience I have given. Do I have to put my former non-target school on my resume? Do I have to denote that my 3.95 GPA came from the non-target school, or can I put it next to my new school?
Why go into this thinking your experience is going to suck? Be open minded and willing to learn and you'll get a lot more out of it..
Seriously, this
True
WTF does "Rising Junior" mean and why does everyone use that?
Rising Junior = Will be a junior starting in Fall 2013
boutique should be in your range for this summer after a PWM stint but you should be fine with opps at BB.
Bb ops with solid networking and good GPA will land u multiple s&t and a good amount of banking interviews as well. Chill out, network at ur bank over the summer and relax.
First, I'm a little surprised the recruiters didn't weed you out of the Ops interviews. They usually look to avoid the kids that think they are too good for the job. You have a great opportunity here and you go at it like a brat. I can almost imagine your post this time next year complaining that you didn't get anything for Junior SA. You say you won't learn anything. Hopefully, you learn...
How a large BB operates, how to navigate corporate bureaucracy, which area of IB is most interesting through networking, what not to do as a Junior intern, excel/word/ppt skills, formatting skills, etc
Maybe you will develop a more humble and mature approach to your work. One of the biggest mistakes interns make is thinking something is below them. People will be able to see right through you this summer if you don't approach this well. That could mean no return offer and I assure you that your interviewers will ask, blacklisted from that BB for any division, no recommendation.
I worked ops for two summers (freshmen and sophomore) both at BB. I got killer recommendations, enjoyed my summers in London and NYC, and wound up where I'm assuming you want to be. I not only got an offer to return in August at both banks, but got an IBD offer a week after my sophomore summer from the same bank once they learned that that was my interest. I turned it down with a hope of getting into a stronger BB and it all worked out. The grass isn't always greener. You want to build models for some boutique, well that sets you up for some pretty hard technicals come recruiting for you. Not to mention getting into a BB program speaks well on your behalf no matter the division. Now there is gonna be someone who says the opposite I am sure, but you kind of sound like a tool saying your internship is gonna suck and it is only going to suck with your current mentality.
Some eye opening stuff..thanks.
+1 Mr. McDuck. Hate these types of interns.
Relax
Too good for the job?? This dude is from a non-target. BB Ops was probably a reach. Cant believe you feel so entitled coming from a non-target.
I could've been a target out of high school, but couldn't afford it so I had to take the scholarship to the non-target. But now I transferred to a target. Don't see how I'm entitled though.
This person is the definition of entitled:
Reading comprehension, how does it work?
The fact that you even bring the target / non - target things into the equation indicates you probably suffer from some entitlement yourself. Regardless of where you went and how you did at the end of the day no one owes you shit and you should keep that in mind. You could very well be a humble, hardworking person but everyone should keep their shit in check, work hard and be humble.
OP has a bad attitude. All I'm saying is they should approach it as a great opportunity and make the best of it, regardless of where they went to school.
You're entitled because you expected to be able to get a good gig coming from a non target. Doesn matter if you had a chance to go to a target. The fact of the matter is that your expectations were not aligned with reality. When employers go through resumes they're not going to take the time to interview everyone to see whether he is smart or not. Reality is that non targets get much less opportunities networking aside.
Dude, seriously?
First of all, you are completely fine with a BB Ops internship going into your junior year, especially coming from a non-target. I went to a target and did BB Ops (so incredibly boring and many of the people are half-tards who don't know how to use a computer) and am now at a top BB. You'll be fine if you do well your junior year as a transfer, your non-target GPA means absolutely nothing when you transfer so it is totally dependent on how you do first semester.
Secondly, those who land IB gigs going into their junior year are either extremely well connected/network like crazy and go to a target or are total stud-muffins at targets. You literally had zero chance to land an IB gig. You didn't settle for something too low, you got lucky by getting your foot in the door of a BB.
+1
Learn from my mistakes bro. I was interviewing for a BB with a top group within the BB. It was an Ops position, so I came in with the attitude that I was too good for it. I got sent out the door really fast. Though every mistake is an opportunity to learn something going forward. I learned that I'm nobody and I'm not too good for anything. Yes, that includes working at a fast-food joint. It's time to humble yourself and get your foot in anywhere you can. I come from a non-target as well. A good attitude will take you far.
Why doesn't anyone agree with OP? He settled when he could have gotten boutique/MM IBD SA
well the short answer is YES you sold yourself way short. When I recruited for SA, I had a 3.0 GPA, very non-target, and no family connection, still landed a few BB offers and MM shops like JEF.
that being said, do not think of this as a missed opportunity but more as a learning experience. when you recruit for banking for next summer, just spin your story a little... i took the highest paying summer job i could to help put myself through college, help my sick mother. you can say just about anything and still be OK.
That GPA and target school on resume will open a lot of doors
Did you not notice that he was a Sophomore? If the choice is between BB Ops and an unpaid random shitty boutique, the BB is without a doubt the best way to go.
My background: non-target, pwm and entrepreneurship internships --> Target, IBD MM SA --> IBD BB FT
Did you settle too low? Who cares if you did. You did it -- so use it.
Two years ago I was in a similar situation. I had just transferred from a non-target to a target. By recruiting season for SA (Winter) I had a semester of classes under my belt, so I just gave my new school and new average on one line, and the non-target school and GPA below with "(transferred in fall of 20XX)" by the school name. Just make sure that your GPA is competitive at the target and that your new GPA is not too far off from your previous school
I was able to leverage my story -- how going into college I had no idea what I wanted to do, study, etc.., but once I discovered my passion, I did what I needed to do to achieve what I wanted.
The summer before I transferred I had worked at a start-up. I used that experience to as a point of contrast in my interviews. I would recommend mentioning that you were uncertain of what you wanted, and ended up in Ops. Through that experience, you learned that being in IBD would be a better fit for you because XYZ.
In general, DON'T be afraid of your less than golden past education/experience. Banks see plenty of guys with the typical "I wanted to be a banker since I was twelve" resumes. There is nothing wrong with saying you had to work your way up and figure it out along the way.
Cheers!
Thanks man, appreciate it.
Never Settle (Originally Posted: 04/15/2012)
I had assumed that, in this gloomy jobs market, anyone extended a job offer would be prepared to jump at the chance if it paid better than your current job, or if you didnt have one. So I was surprised to learn in a HBR report that it is never advisable to take the first number given to you.
Read the full report here.
My naivety probably stems from the fact that I'm a sophomore and any offers which I may secure are still far beyond the horizon. Nevertheless, I have never seen much about salary negotiation on WSO.
What's the best result (monetary or not) you've ever got through negotiating? Has it ever backfired?
Attempting to negotiate an entry level banking salary would undoubtedly lead to you being 1. out of a job 2. on the front page of dealbreaker
The above assumes it's an offer for a respected firm (e.g. BB and even unpreftigious top MM) and not some TTT shop
This is what I always assumed; I'm sure the graduate talk in the article pertains to other industries.
To what extent negotiating comes into play further down the line?
this make sense but does not apply to analysts and associates being hired straight out of school. they have zero leverage, are a dime a dozen, and at the largest banks/funds/consulting shops, all the guys in a particular class get the same mediocre base salary. they are price takers, not makers.
As you gain experience/accolades, your negotiating power will probably increase. But just coming out of school, you don't have the political savvy to do that effectively. I know a bunch of kids who thought they could play all the different offers against one another, and things just got messy for them.
Even if you are somehow to negotiate an entry level salary, they're just going to jack you on your bonus later on and you'll have a terrible reputation. Not worth it at all for an extra... 10k maybe?
I was meaning to gear the questions towards the power of negotiation at any stage in a financial career, not just graduate roles; sorry I didnt make it clear in the original post guys.
i always aks 4 a raise, then, 2 rub it in their face, i walk in the 1st day on the job and just make it rain, throwin dolla billz in they face and say "yeah check my ca$h money bi$hes, can't touch my $wag"...but sometimez they fire me for that, guess they dont wanna hire ballin rainmakerz
You should always negotiate for something better. The only time you are a price taker is when you are an entry level commodity input into one of big financial supermarkets (BB banks). Even as a lateral hire at the junior level you should be able to negotiate a bit, at the very least in terms of what level you come in at.
At one of my previous transitions, I got my bonus bought out and a 15% increase over the salary they first quoted me (which was already 10% more than my previous salary)... All I had to do was ask/counteroffer. Only later did I find out that one of my colleagues had negotiated a better deal as he was able to get a minimum bonus guarantee for the 1st year of him joining the firm (they didn't have to buy out his bonus though)... This was at the Senior Associate level in REPE.
Has it ever backfired for me? No. I have turned down roles though because they couldn't meet my counter offer. You may need to be able to walk away if you want to go for big numbers. You definitely need to know what your worth is to other employers and be able to both demonstrate that in interviews. Also you need to know not only what average pays is like, but also the range. It could vary a lot depending on what part of finance you are in or what country.
No employer is going to dismiss your candidacy because you asked for 10% extra from what they offered and a few other changes in the employment offer/agreement. You need to make them want you though.
The Article I've skimmed through the HBS article and I think the following in "bold" is utter BS and corporate propaganda
My opinion, don't answer that question if you can get away with it. Certainly try to delay it until they have made you an offer if you end up disclosing it at all. Tell them you will work out the salary details once they are ready to make an offer and feel that there is fit between you and the role. This is the opposite of what these guys are recommending which is to give them your current salary to anchor to.
Also, the reason given in the article is poor. The range they "hope" to bind their employees to, should not be your concern.
Also there is a theme in the article that you shouldn't negotiate money. I think this is BS. Money is the most important and negotiable part of the job. They're not going to be able to make a particular finance/investment role that much more interesting to you. Also, your salary is contractual, whereas a promise that you will get exposure to XYZ type deals or senior management / interesting clients is not. Things change in business and the part that doesn't usually is the financial commitments in black and white. Use other parts like, other compensation, bonus language, vacation days, school fees, other contractual perks, pension, carried interest, etc... as negotiating points so it doesn't seem like you're only haggling over salary, but getting more money should be a key indicator of how successful you are in negotiating your new role.
Is it better to take any job when you don't have one? (Originally Posted: 05/29/2013)
Assuming that money wasn't an issue and you have some prior experience, is it better to take anything that comes up or should you continue to hold out until something that is semi-relevant that can put you on a similar career track?
How about for those experienced candidates in between jobs?
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