Finance is NOT the major for a career in finance?
Easy...easy...put your proton blaster away and resume buyside fantasy of choice. All I want to say is that finance (perhaps) may no longer be the optimal major for breaking into...finance. Though the logic may counter conventional reason, so does an eternity of 0% interest rates and Monopoly monetary policy.
As the world changes, so does industry and finance is no different. Looking at a recent Top 10 majors list , finance is nowhere to be found.
In fact, a case can be made that the entire top 5 (Engineering, Econ, Physics, Comp Sci and Stats) are more desirable for Wall Street firms than Excel Jedis and NPV pimps.
I thought about making this a "DO vs. DON'T" sort of thread in terms of which majors you younger guys (or more seasoned vets heading to Grad School) should consider/re-consider but the link does the job for me. #7 (Math) and #9 (Information Systems) are also good options to look into.
Wherein, once upon a growing economy you could count on a name brand degree combined with Philosophy, History or Artistismic Scientology to get your foot in the Wall Street door, you should seriously reconsider that stance if pa-pa is not C-level status.
Not to say that a Jazz major doesn't hold the weight it once did in the eyes of BB HR girls, just reminding you guys that the game is changing and that your prof will still have tenure after teaching you a piss pot full of outdated theoretical garbage. Don't get me wrong I still love The Sharpe Ratio, but it's going to take more for the next generation of universe masters to reach the heights they desire.
Take heed fellas...the entire educational system exists not to get you ready, but to get itself regenerated until the next contract negotiation. Sometimes digging beneath the surface is necessary to achieve the goals you desire.
The financial world is changing rapidly and the plethora of majors available are a great way to differentiate and market yourself as an able candidate.
I'm new to this blog, but this post was very interesting to me. I currently hold an account management position in the media marketing industry. I have a strong interest in finance and throughly enjoy analyzing statistics and trends and would like to transition to a career in finance. Unfortunately, my degree, along with my work experience is in marketing. I'm 26 years old and plan to attend business school to earn a mba (in finance) starting in the Fall of 2011. Im curious though...Is it too late to make such a transition? Is it possible for someone who's currently working in marketing to move into finance? and, if so, what would be the most effective way to do so? I'd greatly appreciate any advice/opinions that can be offered. Thanks!
CoverTwo Use the search function...
According to an MD I spoke with (Family Friend) and a couple other guys not so high up, the general gist was the Finance was viewed as a bit wishy-washy and not heavy enough on the quant/technical side of things. (The MD even said 'you may as well major in colors') just my personal, admittedly limited, experience.
Use the search function. Your question gets asked multiple times a day, so if you put in the due dilligence you should be able to find ample info on previously posted topics.
From my experience, you're in no way too old, you're actually right around the average Bschool age. That having been said which particular area of finance is of interest to you will greatly effect what is the proper road to take.
I know a few guys who attended very NON name brand name graduate programs and are literally flooded with offers from various areas....stats and engineering Master's..all of them...something to consider.
Good luck.
I don't know man, the article was about profitable college major not how to get to wallstreet. I'm not sure how accurate their rankings are either. They didn't include accounting either and you can definitely make good money in accounting.
Fair point. All of these careers have much higher potential ceilings than accounting, however. Keep in mind, no article or theorem will ever play out perfectly... this is just something to think about. Trust me when I tell you that you can hardly go wrong with any of the top 5 listed for a career on the street or anywhere within "its" proximity.
Initial salary surveys are rather meaningless anyway... starting salaries are generally within +/- $20,000, and honestly in the long run that can be compensated for with a few decent years.
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I don't completely disagree with that ranking, but it seems misleading. As a finance major myself, I understand the argument that folks make about the usefulness of the degree or how much you actually learn as a result, but it gives you a good introduction to the basics and if you're an ambitious student you can do pretty well for yourself. I got an analyst offer for a MM i-bank and my salary + signing + bonus is way above any of the "average starting salary" for any of the majors listed herein and starts to rival their mid-career comp figures. i'm sure any halfway decent finance undergrad could pull of something similar.
also, to be fair, i think accounting should be on that list. those guys make decent money even for how boring their jobs are.
ECON FTW
As a finance major in my junior year, I think there's a lot of value that needs to be placed on being put in a "finance mindset" if you will. A math major isn't being constantly reminded of the importance of networking and setting up informational interviews with alumni. Regardless of how useless some of the theoretical finance knowledge might be (i just got out of my investments and securities analysis class), there's a tremendous amount of opportunities geared towards finance undergrads that make landing an internship/job that much more plausible in the current job market.
I'm pretty sure I'll get monkey shit thrown at me for what I'm going to say, but here goes...
In all honesty the stuff you learn in a finance major is pretty straightforward and not of much substantial value. A person with a quantitative degree can easily pick up most of this stuff within a month or two of rigorous training. Sure, some of the finance classes are quantitative, but a technical degree would prepare you to deal with the finance quant stuff very comfortably. Can't say the same about a finance major trying to design a VLSI circuit, model a Hidden Markov Chain, or {insert whatever it is that mechanical eng, physics, pure math majors do}.
Now, I'm not judging people who did finance majors - let me make this perfectly clear. Tonnes of my colleagues and good friends are finance majors. If finance is what you've always wanted to do, fair enough...finance major is perfect for you. I'm just pointing out why an Engineering degree might be more valuable (the applicability across multiple domains), and would strongly encourage people to always take more technical courses in math, cs, and engineering just to develop better quant skills
Certainly seems to be the direction the industry is heading. My sentiments exactly.
Not to generalize, but a lot of "popular" finance jobs are fundamentally sales jobs (banking, S&T obviously, etc.). Echoing what someone said above, going through undergrad b-school definitely prepares your attitude for the finance world and helps build some of the people skills necessary for success. My own experience shows a lot of math, engineering, stats types are more than a little socially awkward.
The CEO of a MM i-bank where I interned last summer came and spoke to our intern class, arguing that you can crunch the numbers better than anyone and be a highly useful asset to a company, but you'll be left in a back room doing just that. The people that advance through the ranks are people that have a sound quantitative background with strong sales skills.
Who gives a shit what one guy said? Most MDs and other very high up guys are quite unusual socially and far from being the most fun to talk to. Further, even if it was true, being a finance or business major won't make you have social awareness if it wasn't already there and studying math/physics/etc. won't make you lose social awareness on its own. Most undergrad finance/business majors are absolute fucking toolbags as it is, so I don't really see what you are basing this on.
Agreed... I'd say that it's not the business coursework that makes me a better candidate for IB (or business in general), but the environment, student orgs, etc. Now that I've gained the necessary networking/recruiting mindset, I'm actually starting to regret doing undergrad business and I'm adding in a math degree to my existing finance :D
totally agree with this, just look at all the HFT ppl, they are all cs majors and some math or engineer background.
yah im a pussy and deleted my post... i guess i shouldn't dish out the hate if i can't take it myself
Information is a fucking joke compared to computer science in fact people that major in information systems is a tool bag who just can't cut it with the math and dedication computer science requires fuck you lazy ass information system major scum worthless pos
haha yeah it is... but IS guys don't associate with cs people at all... we don't even try to pretend so whats with all the hate
b/c people that major in IS 90% of the time are more than capable of majoring in CS but don't want to do the work
All I know is I want this critter on my squad when we play 3 on 3.
though it is true that CS is way harder than IS, IS majors usually become the bosses of CS majors :/
btw im a double major in math and computer science
@LIBOR: finance guys don't associate with IS people either...so whats with all the hate.
if you wanted to do banking, you should have done accounting. finance is still better than IS for banking. source: my own experience in banking.
cheers
Did Balbasaur just evolve while we weren't looking?
Finance might not be needed, but outside of Ivy league schools a liberal arts degree will get you a job at Starbucks. If you go to Princeton take medieval history if you want. If you go to a semi target you should probably hedge yourself and take finance, econ, accounting.
"Networking" and an "OK" gpa can get you places... Major in sucking dick for all I care, at the end of the day you get a fucking job by knowing someone, giving a good interview and being a good sugar coater. Unless of coarse you are an ivy dick bag that masturbated throughout highschool with his report card.
Balbasaur did evolve $h!T.
Hahaha nice.
Oh and I'll stick to finance.
So your telling me I shoulda been a geology major?
Why not double major.... do Finance + Physics/Stats/Eng , that way you have both... and add a little accounting coursework so you know the difference between a balance sheet and a bunhole
most of the interns at my bulge bracket were finance majors though... I think engineering/stats etc. is fine but I don't buy that finance sets you back.
Misleading
It seems that the article may be a little misleading. For example, Wharton's undergrads graduate with a BS in ECONOMICS. So while they may specialize in finance or accounting, their degrees say they majored in economics. Also, I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe some other target schools have a major in applied economics rather than a major called finance. But again, not entirely sure. And some target schools don't offer the option of a finance major altogether, so students interested in Wall Street may major in economics instead.
Dble major in Finance and Business Economics. Done.
Listen, you fucks, it's really simple: if you know/or can meet the right people, network well, aren't a fucking slob, and have an iota of people skills, (and are good on your feet), it doesn't matter what you majored in. I was an English major at a non-target and was offered a well-paid position as an analyst. Do what you want to do and just be smart about it ... you have to be willing to work and tailor your tune on a dime, but don't waste your time worrying about the goddamn beaten path.
Check it. . .
In a recent recruitment presentation by a Swaps and Derivatives Dealer from Nordea Bank, he mentioned that more and more of his co-workers had an engineering background instead of a finance background. The Nordea banker noted that these newly hired engineers had many skills that are extremely useful to the bank. He gave a list of the skills they possessed: - Excellent at Excel: Most engineers work heavily with Excel and similar like applications. - A ‘start to finish’ mindset: An engineer is said to think twice and design once, the product or solution they create should work perfectly no matter how complex. - A love for numbers: Comfortable with math and working with large amounts of data in order to track, analyze, configure, organize, and perform trend analysis. - An engineer is not a financier: Engineers think differently than finance people, which give an organization the ability to have a different perspective and offer different solutions.
I was expecting the human beat box after that intro...all good points though. Engineering is definitely the hot major for finance going forward.
I think we need to differentiate what type of career we are referring too. A trader type that deals with complex and quantitative products will benefit from a quanty major. An investment banker will not benefit as much as the math is simple, therefore majoring in finance or english is fine.
good point
Thanks for the heads up on IS Majors; I Majored in Physics and am now in the process of returning to College for Accounting. I am also interested in Wall Street and I need a road map.
can non-finance majors really learn on the job? (Originally Posted: 11/21/2009)
I'm a non-finance major working in my first year as an IBD analyst. I'm doing fine with getting the work that's assigned of me (comps, dcf, pitchbooks etc) but I don't really have a solid grasp of the details of finance/financial accounting. By that I mean I don't really know the theory behind APV, or adjusting for LIFO/FIFO, or calculating enterprise value with cross holdings/enterprise value with no cross holdings. These weren't the things that they covered in training either.
My goal is to become an associate/PE. Just wondering if I should spend more of my time trying to understand more about business (fundamental investing like Buffet) or actually going out and buying a finance textbook and reading all the chapters. Thanks!
YES But get a nice book so you can understand when you can use APV instead of WACC. corporate finance is not rocket science(asset pricing) so you should be ok.
how about an MBA? lot's of bankers with liberal arts backgrounds go back to bschool to pony up their knowledge of finance/accouning.
i realized what you just did over the summer at a boutique. the people who didn't take any finance / accounting in college would get the work done, but not really understand it. the ones who really knew their stuff were always a step ahead of them, even if they weren't as smart.
I entered banking with an extremely limited understanding of finance and accounting. My bank also didn't offer an extensive training program, so pretty much everything I learned was on the job. You'll find that you're definitely at a disadvantage at first, which will slow you down. However, if you are willing to put forth the effort to learn, you'll eventually not only catch up to your peers, but also have a 2nd skill set that you bring to the table. Just be sure to stop every now and then and ask others to explain when you don't understand the analysis you are doing or what a term means.
You won't be re-tested if you try to become an associate direct promote, but you will if you want to interview for PE jobs. When PE firms interview candidates, they quickly weed out those who don't understand at least the basics of finance and accounting. Some are more stringent and want a very deep understanding, so don't coast through your analyst years or you'll be limiting yourself.
do you learn everything you need to know to be a successful IB analyst in training? I know you pick up a lot on the job but I guess conceptually at least, does training cover everything?
Not even close. Situations will arise and you'll have to just "figure stuff out."
Don't you think that the one's with the finance background will always be a step ahead of the liberal arts background though? At least for a few months/to a year...and that's when PE recruiting will be going down. So doesn't that put finance majors at a big advantage because they will understand both the execution of the job and the finance behind it thoroughly.
The difference in understanding between a finance and liberal arts major is not as large as you would think, especially if both were SAs prior to working full-time. Banking isn't rocket science. Ultimately it comes down to your attitude, your willingness to learn, your attention to detail, your stamina.
Social science major how do I enter finance (Originally Posted: 05/22/2014)
I asked this question in my intro but hopefully this sub forum gets more views. I graduated from a small state college with a BA in social sciences, I didn't take any business courses in undergrad. After doing some research into finance I find it very interesting and would like to make a career out of it.
The brofessor said in my intro thread, that a second bachelors is useless and a masters in finance won't make a difference, your employer will teach you what you need to know.
But how do I get my foot in the door to learn finance OTJ?? Do I become a teller at a local bank, or become a coffee bitch somewhere? Obviously, I'm willing to start at the bottom of the ladder as long as there is potential for upward mobility.
Thanks, Jack
he's living in the past. In the past, he was semi-right about them teaching you what you need to know. Now, thats only for Ivy League/Little Three/etc. types. An MSF actually is the answer, provided its from a good school. But often you'll need work experience to get there. Good ways to get that include arcade trading, stock broker, etc. But you'd be doing those entirely for experience. If you think you'd have a career in those, think again.
An MSF is what I was thinking of doing. The problem is finding a good school that will accept me and provides an on-campus program. I'd much rather have classes face to face, so I learn the material better and have the opportunity to network.
I was in touch with an adviser at the Georgetown MSF program, and she made it seem like the program was open to anyone. But they only offer an online format. I also spoke with someone at VA about the MA in Commerce program which is on campus, but classes start mid-August and I would have to take 3 prerequisites and the GMAT before I would be accepted.
Why did you not choose Finance major? Answer (Originally Posted: 07/24/2014)
Hi guys,
I am a semi/non-target school student studying Mathematical Economics... Most of my school alums on Wall Street(both sell and buy sides) majored in Finance at my school. I can barely find a few people who majored in something else like Economics or Biology.
I am assuming that they will definitely ask the question "why did you choose mathematical economics instead of finance if you want to work in the finance industry" during the interview. The honest answer would be that I have to take shit ton of other business classes like Organizational Behavior, Marketing, etc.... that I don't want to take... Rather, I wanted to take more analytical, quantitative, and harder classes like math and physics.
Can I say stuff like this during the interview? Wouldn't the interviewers hate my answer?
I think the following would be a good answer: while I have been interested in pursuing a career in finance I wanted to focus on a major that offered a more analytical, quantitative, and rigorous course load. In my spare time I follow the markets and read finance related content in addition to a variety of extra-curriculars including: playing sports, volunteering as a youth baseball couch, and stabbing homeless people. Most interviewers just want to make sure that you STEM kids are well-rounded and that they can have a beer with you. Plenty of guys on the street without finance degrees.
This.
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