Sell Side and Buy Side Trading Career Path
I am very interested in becoming a trader. Could anyone post about the career path of a trader. And how many years on average will they be in that position until promoted?
What is the Career Path of a Trader?
The answer to this question is different for different types of firms. Trading itself is the career path, but traders will hold different positions during their time at a company.
Trading at Sell Side Firms
Sell side firms such as Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley have large, prolific sales and trading arms that have hierarchical levels just like the investment banking side of the business in which analysts become associates who then become VPs, Directors, and finally MDs / Partners.
Many firms have something similar to the following:Analyst->Associate->Vice President->Director->Managing Director
(Vice President, Directive/Executive Director can all be the same "level" depending on the firm)
You can see a sample hierarchy below - however, in most cases an MD will between VP and group head.
Proprietary Trading Firms Firms
Prop trading firms are much flatter in structure and therefore reward people with money rather than titles.
Prop trading firms: assist trader -> traderOnce you’re a trader, there won't be any more promotions in terms of position name. you will continue to get salary raises and your bonus will be dependent on your's or your group's performance. very flat hierarchy.
Career of a Portfolio Manager
The career path of a PM is more of a journey and much less of a structured path as there are many ways to get to the point of running your own book for a firm.
On buyside there are all sorts of jobs where the person doing them probably wants to run money/trade himself one day. Everything from research analysts who crunch numbers, to strategists that usually focus more on trade ideas or portfolio management, all the way down to trading assistants who book trades and middle-office guys who make sure they settle right. Every one of them along the way sees themselves as one day making "the big call". Of course most never will. There is no one career path but I can give u mine...back-office/reconciliation----> Trading Desk Assistant-----> Assistant Trader/Analyst---->same but with more of a strategy bent...ie less running numbers and more coming up with ideas, advising PMs on position sizing and risk management, etc.---->managing my own money/balance sheet (and also still acting as a strat for other guys on my desk)
Once you get to the point where you are managing money then promotions have to do with capital and autonomy. But that doesn’t mean those aren’t promotions...a young PM with tight risk limits has a lot different potential to make money and a much different job then the guy who runs the fund who is allowed to take as much risk as he wants and doesn’t have to answer to anyone. Also more senior PMs will be the ones who interface with investors when necessary at large funds...at a small fund every PM will likely have to spend some time in front of the investors.
Read More About Trading on WSO
- Moving From Buy-Side To Sell-Side
- From No-Name College To Buy-Side Out Of Undergrad
- Buy Side VS Sell Side Trading
Want a Career in Trading?
To begin preparing for your interview, WSO Prop Trading has everything you need to know for prop trading interviews, including a myriad of questions with thoroughly explained answers.
Traders don't become something else just because you're promoted.
What's your question exactly?
Most of us would like to become a trader...but saying it is easier than doing it. 1) What skill sets can you provide? 2) Do you understand stocks, commods, futures, or forex? 3) Have you invested personally? 4) Above guy is right....there is no promotion for a Trader. Based upon performance you either get more/less money to trade with. 5) How much chart work do you know? 6) Have you ever created a statistical trading model? 7) I could go on for forever based on your basic question. You need to hone that in. 8) It's similar to putting down - I want to be CEO of Barclays Bank...what should my career path look like. 9) There was a post earlier - a day ago about a an entry level prop trader...you should go back and read my post. It's pretty solid and lays out a career path.
Are there any levels to a trader? For example, as an undergrad out of college, you're first an analyst, then associate, then something else. And what books would you recommend to better understand what a trader does day in/day out, the different types of commods, futures, forex. In essence, any book that would help if you would like to become a trader
Many firms have something similar to the following
Analyst->Associate->Vice President->Director->Managing Director
(Vice President, Directive/Executive Director can all be the same "level" depending on the firm)
There are books out there that will tell u a lot about sales/trading for straight equities (because its the oldest product), etc. but there tends to be limited info regarding the more "sexy" stuff
so google some of these terms if you want
In the Equities Division, some examples are:
-Structured Equity -Equity Derivatives (variance/volatility swaps, equity swaps, OTC equity options) -ETF Trading -Portfolio Trading -Program Trading
In the Fixed Income Division, some examples are:
-Structured credit -interest rate swaps, T-bills, notes, LEAPS -high grade credit -convertible bond trading -FX vanilla, exotic options
so many things people don't even consider, do some searching on the above products
CD~
what's "structured equity"? (this is a serious question)
From my understanding, structured equity is essentially creating a portfolio of equities (using derivs, straight stock, or both) that suits a specific risk apetite. It's a balance between an actively traded portfolio and an index fund.
Thanks Ortsman
prop trading firms
assist trader -> trader
once u're a trader, there won't be any more promotions in terms of position name. you will continue to get salary raises and your bonus will be dependent on your's or your group's performance. very flat hierarchy.
it depends on what u mean by "trader"...i think u r more talking about the sell-side but i will answer from the perspective of a buyside "trader" or portfolio manager.
on buyside there are all sorts of jobs where the person doing them probably wants to run money/trade himself one day. Everything from research analysts who crunch numbers, to strategists that usually focus more on trade ideas or portfolio management, all the way down to trading assistants who book trades and middle-office guys who make sure they settle right. Every one of them along the way sees themselves as one day making "the big call". Of course most never will. There is no one career path but i can give u mine...
back-office/reconciliation----> Trading Desk Assistant-----> Assistant Trader/Analyst---->same but with more of a strategy bent...ie less running numbers and more coming up with ideas, advising PMs on position sizing and risk management, etc.---->managing my own money/balance sheet (and also still acting as a strat for other guys on my desk)
Once you get to the point where you are managing money then promotions have to do with capital and autonomy. But that dosent mean those arent promotions...a young PM with tight risk limits has alot different potential to make money and a much different job then the guy who runs the fund who is allowed to take as much risk as he wants and dosent have to answer to anyone. Also more senior PMs will be the ones who interface with investors when neccessary at large funds...at a small fund every PM will likely have to spend some time in front of the investors.
Hello Bondarb, hope you are doing well.
I have read a lot of the posts on WSO as well as a lot of yours, they have been quite helpful. But I still need some advice, so I have sent you a PM.
But the gist of the question/background:
I graduated college with a Finance degree from a Top 30 School in May 2012. I realize that one day I would like to end up in a Macro/Forex Hedge Fund. But obviously I am not going to be able to get in now, so I have looked at some of the common paths to get in there: Sell Side Research, Buy Side Research, and Sell Side Trading. Ideally, I would like to work as a Sell Side Trader in Forex, because as you mentioned in one of your posts it shows you can manage money. Also, after trading on my personal account, I find it to be quite exciting. However, I missed the boat for Sell Side Programs at Bulge Brackets and Boutiques, because I was not sure what I wanted to do then. They seem to be quite structured and I do not think I can break in now.
So I do not know where else I can apply now or how I can get in? What are some feasible options or options I may not have considered?
"I want to be CEO of Barclays Bank...what should my career path look like."
...oh the irony.
Career Path in Trading (Originally Posted: 08/08/2008)
This may sound absurd but I am just getting into the finance scene and I appreciate clarification. Is it possible for a trader to puruse the banker's route of 2 years analyst -> B-school MBA -> HF/PE/VC ?
I will be starting university this Autumn and is simply trying to plan which Spring Programme to apply to. Trading's tasks and schedule seems to fit my personality. However, my plan is to enrol in a B-school and eventually work in a PE/HF/VC. I'm not sure whether trading, instead of IBD, will make this more difficult or even unlikely.
It's possible but much less likely
If you really want PE/VC, go the banking route or you'd be shooting yourself in the foot
Trading --> Venture Capital? You have no idea how these things work. Also, why would you need an MBA if you're a trader moving to a hedge fund? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/business/16mba.html?partner=rssnyt&em…
http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/
A lot of trading-oriented funds look down on MBAs - if you were good at trading, why would you stall your career and go back to B-School? It's a tremendous waste of time, money, and the experience you miss; you learn a lot more from working. The only real conclusion is that you're trying to make a career switch, or you needed a break - my impression is that B-School is a lot more popular with bankers than traders.
Deciding to go the trading or the corp fin/PE/modeling route is a big decision to make. Starting as an analyst - in any division - is a good first step. If you like where you're at, keep at it. If you want to switch, try an in-house move after 2 years or go back to school. Foregoing school and being promoted directly to associate within your group sort of locks you in.
Trading Career Path - Your own money? (Originally Posted: 12/31/2009)
For those who are trying to enter the ground floor of a prop trading firm, what are the incentives and exit opps? I am familiar with the career path for IB - PE and VC but do not know as much about the trading career path, or intentional career paths.
Is that more of a career path to make partner, or to bank on your own success as a trader and make bank for your firm and eventually open your own trading firm with your own money or other peoples money?
Thanks in advance.
Don't laugh...but this is the 30th+ time that this question has been asked. If you get into one of the top prop firms - there is no exit opportunity because if you are any good they will give you a hedge fund. Why not let them raise the money for you? Striking out on your own to get that extra 10-20% is kind of absurd when you think of the costs of running a bd and all of the regulatory crap that goes along with it. Here are the steps:
1) Asst Trader 2) Trader 3) Hedge Fund Trader 4) Retirement 5) Death
If you have an opportunity with one of the top shops...I would suggest that you take it.
Good luck and have a happy new year!!!
Death??? I didn't sign up for this!!
What is the career path for a trader at a bank (i.e. not a prop firm) ? What do most people do 5 years down the road? 10 years? How do your responsibilities change; is it just being able to work with more capital and being able to take on more risk?
Trading career path out of school (Originally Posted: 02/16/2011)
For someone trying to get into trading out of school whether it be at a hedge fund or bank what is the usual career path as I'm sure right out of school no one will give a recent grad money to manage.
Thanks for any help!
.
There is no "golden" path to having a $x00 mm book/fund. There are guys 1 year out of school with their own books and there are guys who need over 4 years to get one. This variation is because this is dependent firstly on your skills in making money, secondly on your manager's confidence in you to make money, and thirdly on the overall demand for your product. The former two are much more important than the last one.
Trading is as close to a meritocracy as they come at a large bureaucracy (like a bank). Go in there, learn a ton, find mentors to teach you, impress them, and slowly they will ramp up your responsibilities.
Really appreciate the advice! Thanks aintnospam and baddebt.
Career path to trading? (Originally Posted: 05/13/2011)
Hi, im extremly intrested in a career of trading and im curious to know whats the best path to take for myself. Heres a little background on myself:
Im a undergrad student about to graduating this june with a BS in business finance and economics from CUNY. I have a major GPA of 3.3 but my overall is 2.8.(both should be higher after this semester) I've interned with ameriprise financial my junior summer where I assisted an FA with daily activities. (Did it for school credits) Ive worked 3 other jobs off the books to put myself through college as a result my overall GPA is low. Im a hard worker with a competitve edge who loves to follow the financial markets. Any help or advice is appreciated
What do you mean by trading? Prop/Flow/Execution? Buyside/Sellside? Which markets are you interested in? It's generally very very competitive, and your academic record will make things more challenging for you, but once you have a clearer idea of what you want, I'm sure you can get some good advice to get you started.
i would like to do prop/flow, i currently tend to follow quities, comodities and forex. thanks
first you get an internship in college working at a prop firm... do well .... graduate .... get hired or apply to other firms... not much more you can do.. Just make sure you trade and show passion as prop shops love to see passion. I believe proprietary trading is an entry level job right in the trading world? Of course, if you want to work in other trading arenas like banking i think you need to be a trading assistant first.. but i dunno i just wanna be a prop trader myself.
Im graduating next week, ive worked for everything I own except for the roof my parents put over my head and will take that hard working attitude into my career, but I need to get my foot in the door. Whats the best way guys?
Compensation / Career Path in Trading (Originally Posted: 06/07/2011)
Hi everyone,
I've recently been offered an opportunity as a trainee trader at a relatively-new options market maker in Australia. Can someone please shed some light on potential career paths/development?
1) Do traders at options MMs venture out into other products after a few years (i.e. from Equity Exchange-Traded Derivatives to credit/rates/etc), or move to equity derivatives divisions of IBs? From what I can see, vanilla equity derivatives market making doesn't seem very lucurative compared to other products. Is it fair to say equity derivatives market makers / trader's comps tops out around 500-750k USD / year? From what I've read on AmsterdamTrader, the outlook at MMs (especially for screen traders and firms with inferior hardware) looks dim (i.e. Flow Traders forced to close HK office, IMC firing senior traders on bonus day, smaller tick-sizes squeezing arb profits, etc).
2) What's the earnings like for a senior trader in equity derivatives market making? From what I can tell, it looks like senior traders can't generate that much P/L (relative to banks) but they get a higher % of P/L. Furthermore, real money can't be made until you become a partner (i.e. return on paid-in equity capital).
Any comments? Thanks!
From what i've seen people tend to make their own company once they reach the top of their firm/or move onto a bigger firm until you cant get bigger.
If you make money,you get paid, if you make a lot of money, you'll get a % of it. If you make an astronomical amount of money, you'll get a tiny % of it, and they'll let you close the door on the way out.
You won't find accurate earnings figures anywhere on the internet, think how that information came to exist...
Finally, maximum comp is not that. I know a BB derivatives trader who lives in Mayfair (most expensive square on the monopoly board), you cant do that off 500k USD.
T
Man I need numbers, I want to know if i should go to trading.
I want to be richer.
Prop trading career path (Originally Posted: 01/29/2013)
so I have an offer from a proprietary trading firm in NYC, but I'm waiting to hear back from some other interviews. It would be my first foray into anything Wall Street, and I wanna know if there are good career paths one can take after a trading stint that might be non-trading. Can I get into IB, PE, etc? Will it help me get into a good MBA program if I do well?
Search around WSO, plenty of threads on this. General consensus seems to be exit opp for trading is trading. Getting an MBA would probably be the first step in making a big career move out of trading.
is wealth management a better career path, or should I take trading instead (I have an offer)? I'm from a non-target school with a non-target major (poli sci).
Is this for FT?
yes the wealth management would be full time as would the prop trading.
For me personally, it would come down to which prop shop and how committed you are to trading. A good prop shop could be a rewarding experience, but might take an MBA to jump into IB. But at the same time, I'd guess it would be an almost equally hard move to jump from PWM to IB or PE as well.
High Frequency Trading Career Paths (Originally Posted: 10/29/2013)
Hi all, I'm currently a college senior who accepted a job as an equity trader at a HFT prop shop for when I graduate. I'm really curious what a career options I have if I decide I want to leave trading in the future. I have a stellar academic background (Math/Econ/CS/Stat, 3.9 GPA from a large state school) but have heard certain graduate programs look down on people coming from trading.
Not that I'm ungrateful for the position (I've wanted to do this for a long time), I just want to make sure I'm not pigeon-holing myself too severely if it's not what I hoped it would be. Thanks for the input.
A lot of HFT people leave the industry (if they leave) for tech (Google, Facebook, etc.). It pays pretty well, benefits are great, and it's generally a pretty chill career.
what you heard is completely wrong. i am getting my 2nd MS degree part time right now at UIUC in CS.
In modern world trading has become a new option of making money. You have to research the market knowing about TRADING PLAN, a BUSINESS PLAN and then invest your money. You should surely get back your money. It's a new way of earning money which has gained huge popularity.
I have no idea what you're talking about and it doesn't sound relevant to HFT.
Welcome to WSO
Career Path Advice - energy trading (Originally Posted: 02/19/2014)
I am making an industry switch from Fixed Income trading to the energy market. I have a few final round interviews coming up and I am trying to decide which is the best route for me. My end goal ( 5 years or so) is to be a Day- Ahead trader.
Of the options I have these two are sticking out:
1 - System Operator for the PJM market at PPL ( Pennsylvania Power and Light) in Allentown, PA. Will be obtaining NERC System Operator certification after passing a training class
2 - Full Requirements Analyst at NextEra Energy in Juno Beach, FL. From what I understand so far its for the PJM and MISO markets where they pitch bids to Utilities etc and then perform P&L hedging upon successfully acquired contracts.
I am looking for advice on which position will give me the most knowledge and a sort of "somewhat direct" path into day ahead trading.
Systems operator at ppl def sounds like better route to understanding how the grid functions..the physical side is something that a lot financial players don't fully grasp and if you can come into an interview for a cash trading role (which is what it sounds like your end goal is) and impress them with your knowledge you could have a leg up on your competition..
Thank you. PPL is what I am leaning towards because it just seems that I would be learning a whole lot with managing the grid. I appreciate your reply.
Prop Trading Potential (Originally Posted: 11/20/2010)
I got an offer with a prop firm with a salary. Its not "top" on these boards (like JSC) but its one of the legit ones. I wanna know, what is the potential after about 5-7 years with the firm.
I know it varies depending on ability but lets say I am an ok guy in the firm but not a star by any means.
Also, do prop firms typically still pay you the same base salary after you become a trader, but in addition you get the % of your pnl? These firms are so damn secretive!
I'd appreciate if guys who are currently with good prop firms could provide insight.
depends on the firm and thus if you get a base or what.. but if you were just on purep erformance id say like 120-250 depending on how 'okay' you were
ok sweet thanks I do a significant base, and 100k is enough for me time to sign
What does 'okay' firm mean? There are people here who don't include SIG/Timber Hill/etc. as top firms.... I know people at those firms who are paid shit compared to friends at much 'less respected' firms.... Size/rep of firm does not correlate that strongly with pay. A smaller firm generally has more room for growth and you will be given more responsibility quicker than you would at a place like DRW/SIG/etc., which can mean a chance to make more money.
Yeah ok but places like IMC/SIG/Optiver/DRW, while maybe not 'top' like JSC still pay 6-figures starting, which is a lot more than was being mentioned.
I would be interested in knowing the name of the firm if it wouldn't put you out too much. It would let me know who is hiring...and if you send my resume their way I don't think I would protest TOO loudly :P
Monkeysama dude, go back to school. Your resume is solid and you seem like a smart guy, but it is unlikely to get a real look over the hundreds of resumes received through OCR from seniors @ top targets with equally great resumes. You should have no problem getting into a good MSF/MFE/etc. type program.
Yeah, and I get out and find out I can't get a job again, and now I'm 26 and am in debt. Why would I do that?
Not true. And at least 3 of those firms don't pay their bonuses @ the same time people start (I know this bc I am at one and best friends are at another 2), so you can't even receive a bonus to reach 6 figures by that point anyway. T4L, get out of college and get a job at one of these places before you make-up shit like that. What you are saying is simply false--no reason to continue debating it.
Well then...we'll have to agree to disagree, because I've seen offer letters for at least 3 of those four firms, and base+signing was between 70 and 100k.
It's just insane. I need to get a worthless degree even though I'm equally if not more qualified than a lot of people getting in just because they're connected through their university. You'd think these places were in the business of, you know, business.
Dude, think that all you want but what has the last few months of looking for a job taught you?
As someone who is currently pursuing a MFE, don't do it unless you are ready to commit. Kind of cliche, but if your heart isn't in it... It is tough even from coming from an engineering background, I have taken MBA level finance classes and they are nothing compared to MFE classes. Don't know you, but from this post it sounds like we were in similar position strong background, passion for trading... etc. Even with my persistence and modest par networking couldn't secure interviews or just get a foot in the door. SO, I wouldn't say it's exactly worthless, going back to school has gotten me interviews and hopefully soon to come offers from energy trading firms. Is debt load more now? Yes. Will I be paid more than previous career? Yes. I am another year older and enjoying college? Yes Tons of factors... just have to judge your own situation, point is I wanted to trade derivatives and figured with electronic and high frequency/algo dominated markets it would be useful and it would allow me to significantly increase my quantitative (in a pure mathematical not necessarily programming way). Would not take back my decision.
And by worthless degree I clearly mean for my purposes. This isn't supposed to be a slur on it in general.
And by worthless degree I clearly mean for my purposes. This isn't supposed to be a slur on it in general.
That I should brush up on my burger flipping skills?
No, you haven't, T4L. Quit while you're behind and not being called out on more lies, bro.
If you think IMC/Optiver/DRW/SIG are less than 70k in base+sign+guarenteed year end/relocation (i.e. the sum of all gaurenteed comp) then I don't know what to say.
Add in promotion based or performance based bonus, and six figures total pay is almost guaranteed unless you are fired before year end.
Jerome, the only support I've seen for 80% of your claims are to call people names or attack claims they haven't made. Do you think the rest of the forum isn't smart enough to notice this?
And most people here know that many of these top firms do pay > 70k if you count base+sign+guaranteed year end. You're not going to get anywhere with disputing that.
lol Juked, what would you like me to do? Show you paystubs from these places? E-mail you from a company e-mail? Seriously, quit being retarded--there isn't anyway to 'prove' it that is worth doing (anything you could do is going to get your ass fired really fast), but it is annoying to see silly comments from people not at any of these places.
And I didn't say they don't pay over $70k, I said that >6 figures isn't guaranteed. Realize that at some of these places a substantial portion of each class is let go before year end, so there is by no means any 'guaranteed year end bonus'.
It's more annoying when someone disputes correct statements and puts people down, then makes incorrect, unsubstantiated statements. Tell me how much you think first year comp at SIG or DRW is, if less than $70k all included.
No Jerome, you called T4L a liar when he said 70-100k. So you must know that it is either 100. Which is it? How do you know this counter consensus info?
Moron, he said:
"Yeah ok but places like IMC/SIG/Optiver/DRW, while maybe not 'top' like JSC still pay 6-figures starting, which is a lot more than was being mentioned."
I already answer the question of what the compensation 'is', which is varied. There are many that make >$100k and there are many that don't make $100k. There is significant variation.
as someone who trades at one of these firms i want to line all of you would be monkeys up in a line and execute you when you ask what potential earnings are at prop shops.
IT IS FUCKING PROP TRADING ITS BASED ON HOW MUCH YOU FUCKING MAKE SKYS THE LIMIT FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK
asdfasdfasdfasdgakldfjaskdlfjakldsf
vent
there arel ike fifty threads going on asking the same fucking thing right now.
and monkey hes prolly right. debt and hope of good jobness>no jobness :x
Fuck it, I'll just join the military.
@shorttheworld - i get it, you get what you make, but i still jus wanted to make sure that if i wasnt a star, what i could still make is good enough to reject other "safer" offers even if they paid more
Also, when I said "legit" I meant a firm that gives a base salary (not say which one) and doesn't ask to put your own money... I interviewed with a couple and I am not saying which one I'm taking
I don't get a 100k base, but I guess based on what I'm reading on these boards I could be pulling that in a year or two.
dont go back to school. keep grinding and staying aggressive.
I think, from what admittedly little research I have done (talk to people in the industry etc), that the firm you go to has SOME bearing on how you do. If you're a straight manual trader you still have a support network of quants and trading strategists that give recommendations and trading strategies, on going education, etc. Once you get good at what you're doing or have some more experience then maybe this would be less important, but it might be more useful starting out. On the topic of compensation, you should probably worry more about not washing out than anything else IMO.
And thanks for the vote of confidence PnL.
Here's something I've been wondering. What do you guys think is profitable right now: market making or HF/algo trading positions. Based on what I've been seeing, it seems like the algo trading positions are paying the most, although I have anecdotal evidence to support that only.
if you suck you wont make it to month 6
Opinions on careers in prop trading (Originally Posted: 12/30/2014)
Hey guys,
First post so I will apologize for any mistakes in advance.
So I have recently been presented with the opportunity to take a role trading derivatives for a prop desk in Chicago. This has been more or less my perceived dream job for a few years. Currently in consulting, have experience in WM (Series 7), and for a major HFT firm in the past (operations sucks). Since moving into consulting, have had pretty solid success trading out of my own account again.
I was hoping any of you guys could provide some feedback/opinions/warnings about this as a potential move. I have no qualms in consulting currently but I am just genuinely much more interested in trading than making decks.
Also, the instant response I usually get is "trading is a stressful career are you sure you can handle it", to which I think playing high stakes NL holdem for the better part of 6 years has made me pretty adverse to the stress that comes with risk/variance.
Really appreciate everyones input.
If it's market making and/or HFT, then you have a career with upside that is proportional to your time and effort spent on the job.
If it's an arcade, good luck. You're really just paying the bonuses of guys at banks and market making firms as you play around in their markets.
If you're currently having success in your own personal accounts while working, what's precluding you from continuing to do so? I'm assuming you are headed into an arcade shop. Forgive my brevity since I've answered this exact question a few dozen times but I offer you the following hypothetical situation:
Three to five years from now, you are only making OK money. "OK money" is entirely subjective but assume it's less than you thought or hoped. Or what if you stop making money? What do you do in either scenario?
It isn't pretty and if you start to lose money it can get ugly fast, at least in terms of your options. Three to five years out is recoverable, but what about 7-10 years out? Literally imagine what that would mean for yourself, finding a job would be brutal. How would you even spin that or get through a resume screen?
On the other hand, had you stuck with consulting and pushed yourself up the ladder... Where would you be in 3-5 years? Or 7-10 years from now? Now assume you were able to generate reasonable and consistent returns while working. It's hard to imagine that situation ending badly, even if your trading failed, which if it did fail you'll be happy as hell you stuck with your job. From what I understand consulting is very lucrative with some cushy (and also lucrative) exit opportunities.
With all of that being said, it might be worthwhile if you are at a point to go off to b-school. Take part of a year off and give it a shot, if it doesn't work out maybe you could re-brand yourself and continue on your way without too much headache. Though you'd still be subject to long term career risk. The successful independent day traders I know have all of their bases covered and long histories with trading prior to taking the plunge.
These are all very valid points. I guess the attraction comes from working for an HFT MM where everybody basically wanted to look for the nearest bridge to jump off, I have been a little hesitant to get back into that side of the business.
Part of my thought process for switching to a prop shop vs trading out of my own account was just the learning potential of being in that environment vs limited research after hours and punching in my orders via my phone intraday. Assuming I had a substantial bit of starting capital (old gambling earnings), if I traded successfully for 3-5 years, I would feel more comfortable putting all those funds to work and trading independently. But this could be a pipe dream by a lot of standards.
Maybe it is worth looking at some of the algo firms again and seeing if the grass was actually greener at a less monster of a algo/routing house. What are some of the more respected firms to look at?
However, consulting is a pretty good racket I won't deny that either. Just not very exciting.
As posters above said, if its a true legit prop shop (feel free to PM and I can try and chime in and if i dont know i can ask around for reputation in the market) and that is what is your dream then Yolo. If you know you can handle the stress (and tbh unless you are in a boiler room its not that stressfull, you quickly learn to disassociate yourself from the numbers, and they just become what they are, numbers).
Its like if a GM asked you to sign with an NBA team, and that was what you truly wanted, but you were content with the consulting gig and why risk it. Sometimes you need to swing the bat and see what happens. Just my 2c of life advice. You need to know your risk aversion.
Win, lose or draw an NBA player with a contract is going home in a Ferrari with at least three girls named Tiffany waiting for him.
Are you ColtsForTheWin (cftw) from the online poker days?
@3 handicap, haha not quite, I had a host of user names over my stint on stars and FT @"derivstrading" I will dm you I would be interested to hear your thoughts @archervice yes I believe I would be us equity options trader for the firm
Recent Graduate Trying to Break Into Prop Trading (Originally Posted: 01/13/2013)
The topic title says it all. Let me keep it short and simple and if you guys need any more information I will answer posts asap.
I'm recently got my BA in Business Administration & Finance from NYIT with a 3.52 GPA.
I have some work experience, but not really related to prop trading. I graduated college late and without potential internships because I had to go on medical leave for a year and undergo multiple serious surgeries. Hoping to get an internship during my last semester was basically a pipe dream although I tried.
I came across proprietary trading during my recovery period from my surgeries. I've done a little trading myself in the past via Monex and some on personal account on FX with Gain Capital.
Due to my rough financial situation, I need to find a firm with a base salary during the training period. The firm must be in NY. So far the firms that I have found that do this are FNYS, Trillium, and possibly Apex Capital Holdings.
What are entry level/training positions in prop trading called? Searches for assistant trader and trading assistant do not yield that many results.
If you could give me some guidance as to where to begin my trading career, I would be very grateful.
Good Luck
Finding a prop firm which will take you straight out of undergrad AND pay you a base salary AND give you some funds to trade with is going to be highly unlikely.
I'm actually more interested in the their training program than getting paid. I guess I could find a part time on weekends so that I can earn some cash for transportation and living expenses.
It seems like most reputable firms have 18-24 month training periods. I want to make sure I have an extensive and excellent training experience. So far the only two firms that I know pay you a base during this long training period are FNYS and Trillium.
I saw a training program at SMB Capital that seemed rather comprehensive, but I know they have a division called SMB Training which I believe is a paid for education costing around $8,000.
I guess my question is which NY Firms have an excellent training program for new traders right out of college?
Anyone else have an insights? I would really appreciate them. Thanks.
Career Switch to Prop Trading (Originally Posted: 10/27/2009)
Harvard grad ('07) working in reinsurance in CT (don't ask).
Looking to make a switch to Prop Trading in NYC.
I would obviously need a firm with a good training program, and a base salary during training.
Good with numbers, but definitely not a super-quant.
Any ideas?
First New York, Jane Street, SIG, DRW(7 world trade)
that's one heck of a switch. just curious, why prop trading?
if you dont already know, you should be VERY strong with math and VERY comfortable with stats. at least for interviews.
The independence factor of prop trading is appealing. Handle my own trading, but use firm capital.
Bored out of my mind at my current job.
Looking for something more dynamic. (open to suggestions, folks)
def possible to switch, i've seen assistant traders (assist trader -> trader) at top prop shops who are in their 30s
When do prop shops generally recruit? I am guessing that full time recruiting is already in full swing. What about summer internships? Anyone have any ideas?
Double post
campus recruiting for prop shops is happening currently (at least at my school). i imagine it happened a bit earlier for most other places.
Totam assumenda consequatur quo aliquid. Consequatur distinctio sint dolor odit consectetur in similique quia. Maxime labore qui similique nihil modi. Deserunt dolorum suscipit maxime in natus quisquam.
Est et eius sint. In laborum et ut quo eum in. Et facilis quia et voluptas. Est deserunt sed beatae ducimus impedit. Laudantium cupiditate distinctio pariatur numquam est magni ut. Aspernatur et dolore est laboriosam.
Nisi ut assumenda quasi optio et. Distinctio ducimus in fugit totam aut. Ut nihil animi minima id consequatur veritatis. Omnis delectus illo illum quidem sed officia sequi. Iusto voluptatem sunt impedit rem. Nulla quibusdam a ex cum quis.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Velit accusamus veritatis accusamus iusto. Aperiam officiis maxime animi atque reprehenderit debitis dolorem. Iure pariatur accusantium esse optio sint recusandae. Blanditiis veniam quis non et nihil vel tempore.
Illo est neque autem atque. Fugit consequatur nulla nostrum aliquid delectus eum. Non delectus quae quia.
Iure fuga soluta aliquam sit distinctio ratione minima ipsa. Recusandae maiores aliquam eligendi omnis et. Voluptatem repellendus aliquid nobis itaque velit.
Pariatur id saepe vitae voluptas architecto inventore. Adipisci est corrupti ratione illum et.
Laboriosam dicta quia id nisi. Aspernatur inventore aut mollitia velit velit. Inventore fugit tempore aspernatur delectus amet facere qui. Repellat qui enim sequi dolorum quia voluptas pariatur officia.
Natus exercitationem numquam rerum illum reprehenderit consequuntur id. Quis sapiente nisi minus dolorem omnis sit provident. A et hic eos cumque totam consectetur itaque.
Perferendis id laborum ipsum at ullam. Exercitationem laborum eum reprehenderit unde explicabo aperiam.
Est accusantium soluta qui repudiandae. Ipsam molestiae sint neque distinctio est. Quia illo qui voluptas aut. Nemo est doloremque neque illo voluptas vel molestiae est. Magnam nobis quia amet ea id alias.
Fugiat eius occaecati ipsam. Adipisci alias ut et expedita velit soluta iste. Totam officiis est dolores voluptate culpa. Praesentium iusto minima sit culpa ab ullam maiores consectetur. In aperiam voluptas mollitia reiciendis eos voluptas vitae.
Dolores voluptatem possimus rerum alias est sit ex. Aliquam ipsam et reiciendis magni eum nesciunt. Et doloremque autem mollitia ut. Et et voluptatem est harum earum repellat quidem. Rerum pariatur qui assumenda molestias eum vel.
Ea ipsum quod molestiae magni animi impedit laudantium. Aut inventore dolor esse et.
Et nobis ut sed quam. Cum qui totam ratione dignissimos quia id. Voluptates ratione modi optio illo. Perferendis nihil occaecati numquam harum. Blanditiis in dolorum natus et ipsa nemo qui.
Occaecati voluptates aut veniam. Rem sequi omnis possimus non eum. Ipsam voluptatem sequi quia. In non sunt eum.
Et architecto earum dolores error aut suscipit. Aspernatur vel iusto vel at dolore sunt voluptatum. Mollitia voluptas eos at.
Modi quo error cumque est libero dolores. Animi et animi enim voluptatem repellat. Cumque velit impedit quia magnam laboriosam. Quia sunt voluptatibus ipsum.
Ab quam ducimus autem voluptatum debitis. Ea et itaque perferendis magni id eius et.
Natus saepe numquam explicabo cum eos eaque. Quasi qui omnis excepturi repellendus velit ab molestias. Animi dolore repellendus quo quia.