Tuck vs. Carlson ($$$)
Hi all,
Long-time reader, first time poster.
I'm fortunate to have gotten into Minnesota Carlson (on a full ride) and Dartmouth Tuck (with no scholarship). I know this comparison is quite unique, because I couldn't find anyone else who's ever chosen between these two schools on the forums, but there are a few reasons I'm still debating, most notably because I plan to live in Minnesota after graduation. Further information on myself:
I plan to pivot into investing / financial services (e.g. ideally a hedge fund in the long-term but more realistically investment banking in the short-term) after MBA. Because I'm planning on moving into what can be a lucrative career field, I'm more comfortable taking out the necessary $130k I'm looking at if I were to attend Tuck than I otherwise would be. That being said, it's still a lot of money and the fact that Carlson's network is stronger than Tuck's within Minnesota gives me pause.
Pros for Carlson:
- There's a good chance I'll move to Minnesota (my home state) after MBA. I'm not 100% tied to it though.
- The Carlson network is stronger than Tuck's within Minnesota (but not as strong outside of Minnesota).
- Full ride means I'll entirely avoid the roughly $130k in student loan debt I'd need to take out for Tuck.
- The Minnesota-based investment banks recruit at Carlson (e.g. Piper Jaffray, Lazard's Minneapolis office, etc)
- There's no scientific evidence that going to a top ten school materially helps an individual in the long-run as opposed to going to a mid-tier school (although the couple of studies I read were focused on undergraduate and one for economics PhDs that was popularized in Malcolm Gladwell's book "David and Goliath"). I know there's a correlation between top schools and high salaries, but that doesn't mean there's any causation.
Pros for Tuck:
- Very strong alumni network that is national/global (although seemingly concentrated in the Northeast / NYC, etc). This would seemingly give me the option value of having a network elsewhere if I ended up not moving to Minnesota after graduation or chose to move elsewhere in, say, 10 years. Also I should take into account that the Tuck network would be valuable even if I'm interacting with people who don't live in Minnesota (e.g. I could potentially get phone calls with Wall St. people who otherwise wouldn't take the call from some guy in Minnesota)
- Notable professors / alumni, etc.
- Top Ten school = prestige (which I don't care much about personally but acknowledge is valuable in job recruiting/networking, etc)
- Assumedly, most of my classmates will be very "on top of their stuff". (This was a big realization for me in undergrad- I was appreciative of having chosen a top school simply because my classmates pushed me to do even better. Although for all I know I would've done just as well at a mid-tier undergrad school).
- All the big banks recruit at Tuck (and I assume I could request to be placed in their Minneapolis or Chicago offices).
Obviously this is a personal decision but I'd be curious to hear anyone else's thoughts on the matter. For the most part it boils down to me weighing the benefits of Tuck against the $130k or so of student loans while knowing that I'll likely be earning roughly $225k all-in compensation in my first full year out of MBA (according to my research on Glassdoor and WSO here).
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or other things I should be thinking about!
I thought this was a troll until I saw how much effort you put into writing all of this.
Not only is Tuck the clear-cut right answer (no matter how you look at it), hearing you compare the 2 schools is an insult -- they're not even remotely in the same league (this is the reason you've never seen a comparison between Tuck and Carlson btw.)
Imagine this were a nightmare...a really, really bad nightmare. You wake up, and realize you got into a globally recognized top-10 program that will not only pay you more in the short and long-term, but will help you land opportunities you could only dream about had you gone to Carlson. Then smile and playfully think, "How foolish would it have been had I chosen to attend Carlson over Tuck?" Then proceed to accepting Tuck's offer. Never look back.
Ever.
You're not going to get a very thoughtful response on this forum when it comes to the value of an MBA. A lot of the kids here are under the impression that graduate degrees are the key to secret societies and mass fortunes. In reality, a graduate degree, form anywhere really, is usually a key to a relatively low risk management position that pays a comfortable salary.
That said, some salaries are more comfortable than others and some schools provide an easier path to the more comfortable salaries. It will be easier for you to break into more selective positions with a degree from Tuck. What you do beyond that point, as I'm sure you know, is entirely up to you.
I would advise that you select Tuck, considering your career interests. I did not attend Tuck, but have worked with those who did.
(1) While the Carlson network might be stronger inside General Mills, think about the clients you will be pitching to as an investment banker. Many of them will be across the Midwest, with top tier school backgrounds. You will have instantly more credibility with Tuck on your resume than Carlson. This plays true in recruiting as well - while they may recruit at Carlson, I am willing to bet they would be more impressed by Tuck. Your academic record is one of the primary proxies for how well you will perform in any finance role. Tuck > Carlson, hands down, any day, any where. It leaves so many more doors open - you never know how your mind will change once all of the opportunities open up.
(2) Peer effects. In business school, you will be able to develop a strong network with people who are similarly successful, reflective of their work ethic and academic ability. Have you ever heard the phrase, "steel sharpens steel"? Within the context of that analogy, think of Carlson as a rotting wooden log.
(3) I am not trying to be a dick, but I did not know what Carlson was, and like other users, thought it was a troll.
At the end of the day, it is just my opinion. Good luck and congratulations!
If you're 100% deadest on working within MN, go to Carlson. If you're unsure in any way about what you want to do or the location, go to Tuck. If your background is nontraditional in any way, go to Tuck.
IMO I think Dartmouth wins this debate 10/10 times unless you have a spouse already who is tied to living in Minnesota. I would recommend contacting Tuck and demonstrating that they are your number one choice but would like to see if they could reconsider any sort of financial aid due the scholarships you were offered from other MBA programs. Best of Luck!
What if he wants to work for 3M?
Then he probably wouldn't say "I plan to pivot into investing / financial services (e.g. ideally a hedge fund in the long-term but more realistically investment banking in the short-term) after MBA."
Would usually say take the money and run but Carlson is too far beneath Tuck in this case. Would draw the line at UNC/UCLA/Texas for this type of trade off.
I don't think it's a definitive list, but I'd draw the line if a school doesn't fall in this list: www.McKinsey dot com/careers/your-career/McKinsey-on-campus/emerging-scholars
That's even if you have no desire to work in Consulting. It just shows a certain level of pedigree.
Unless you want to work for 3M etc. in MN - then why not go to Carlson?
They are all top 20 schools. Tuck is a great school but picking either of the 3 for Tuck is really a no big deal, especially if money is involved. Tuck is prestigious but not that prestigious, this isn't MIT/HBA we are tucking about Ha!.
To play devil's advocate here, Carlson recruits well in Minneapolis (obviously)....which happens to have like 18 F500 companies. I took a look at the employment report, and it was pretty impressive, especially for a school at than ranking level (25-35 depending on year and publication). All 3 of the MBB recruit both interns and FT hires there (I'm a consultant so that's where I look), and they send multiple people into finance as well (the firms you listed and corporate finance at those 18 F500s). And based on my LinkedIn search, add Harris Williams, US Bank, and Wells Fargo to the list of companies that have hired Carlson grads recently (in addition to Piper and Lazard).
You said "pivot" into finance, which I take to mean you don't have a background in it. Because of that, Carlson's Finance Enterprise program is probably going to be very helpful to you in convincing potential employers that you are committed to switching into a new field, and you'll get 3 semesters of experience (likely doing work with those aforementioned F500 companies and banks) DURING school, which will be helpful in forging connections with companies in the community that you say you want to move to.
And of course, no debt is great.
I don't know anything about Tuck other than it's ranking (and don't care, which is why I only took a look at Carlson). I don't think your decision is as slam dunk as everyone else is saying.......if Carlson gets you where you want to go (both the companies and industries), then I don't see why you turn it down.
Of course, it OBVIOUSLY goes the the other way if you're looking to go to GS, JPM, etc. But if that's not your aim, Tuck isn't going to do much extra for you. If I was in your place (full ride vs nothing) AND looking at breaking into MBB consulting instead (my area) AND I wanted to be in Minneapolis, I'd pick Carlson (multiple MBB hires last 3 years + Consulting Enterprise+Geographic advantage). That's a lot of ANDs, but you fit 2/3 of them. Assess your chances and talk to the career centers (and go on any remaining visits and events) and then decide what you want to do.
On my own research I have to agree with John-Doe8 . Not as easy of a decision as a lot of people are making out. I do think Tuck is a great school and I know people from Tuck who have made it to selective leadership development programs and whatnot in Minneapolis (Cargill's SBD, etc.). However I'm sure being there is a good advantage for F500 companies in Minneapolis, as most recruit locally. Finance from what I understand may be more prestige-whory. Also you have way more optionality at a Tuck.
Very curious to hear @MBAGrad2015" s thoughts on this actually.
Hey all, thanks for the responses - I got a good chuckle out of a couple of them. I figured I'd let you all know that I did end up choosing Tuck after attending their Admit Weekend and loving it. Thanks again!
As a Carlson graduate, I can attest to most of your pros for the school. I want to stress the strong network within Minnesota, however in terms of what you are looking to pivot into you would really be limiting yourself. Carlson seemed to churn out consultants (their curriculum is very focused on providing you with this skill set) and F500 workers based on my class with very few turning towards institutions such as Piper for the IB career path. Based on my experience, there is not a strong presence within that area of business currently and it is truly a Minnesota bubble in where people seem to take jobs.
That being said, it was an enjoyable experience and Minneapolis is a wonderful city. Certainly not the worst thing in the world that could happen to you and based on your post it seems you may already have something lined up that will provide ample salary to you without the IB exit ops.
Best of luck!
Tuck clearly. Even for Minneapolis. The MM firms you mentioned recruit primarily BO and MO from Carlson, not FO. Take a cursory look at the actual bankers on LinkedIn. Further, in terms of say 3M or Cargill's internal VC groups, they do not have anyone from Carlson. They do have Tuck and M7 MBAs (I know guys at both groups).
Are there more Carlson MBAs working for F500 firms in Minneapolis? Absolutely. But they aren't getting the top roles in banking, internal VC, etc. Further, someone brought up MBB earlier, again, there are M7/T10 graduates and T15 programs. There are very few Carlson grads despite a supposedly huge geographic advantage.
Go to Tuck.
Couple other things to consider:
1 - You'll make some good friends in business school and would you rather be in the same area as them after you graduate or is that not an issue to you? There probably won't be many if any people moving to Minnesota from Tuck. 2 - Do you want the option to of working in areas other than Minnesota right after graduation?
You'll have more options and opportunities out of Tuck, but if Carlson offers you everything you want then it's not an issue. I vote Tuck though. You will have more opportunities and a better brand (although that doesn't matter to you). Tuck's alumni network is amazing and will be useful 5 years after you graduate and want to move into a new job. I think some people have made strong points for Carlson though. It sounds like if you want to stay in the area you really can't go wrong.
Carlson for sure, no brainer. Hopefully you haven't already started attending Tuck.
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