Undergraduate: Ivy League vs. 2nd Tier
I want to work in investment banking or trading after college. Would it be better to go to an Ivy League school, we'll say Dartmouth, and get a good GPA (3.7-3.8) or to go to a 2nd tier school (for example, Notre Dame) that has an undergraduate business program and get close to a 4.0 GPA? Obviously both schools are fantastic. Dartmouth is slightly more prestigious, but at Notre Dame I know I could get a better GPA. Additionally, Notre Dame offers more specialized majors (finance, accounting, etc) than Dartmouth, which only offers economics.
Any thoughts?
**EDIT** The make-believe numbers above are just examples I pulled out of nowhere.
But Dartmouth is a 2nd tier school itself...
Dartmouth
Is there something about Notre Dame that makes you absolutely love it and really want to go there? (If the answer starts with a girlfriend or a bunch of HS friends going there, the answer is no.)
Is there a huge cost difference? (We are talking $100K+ in extra debt you will have to take on.)
If no to both, take Dartmouth.
Otherwise, you need to give us more info.
Is the difference between ND and Dartmouth that big? Getting a 4.0 at any college should be somewhat difficult, right?
Ha, yep. He's delusional if he thinks he'll get an automatic 4.0 at ND just because it's slightly less selective than some of the Ivies.
Yea I can echo that too.
I would almost say that U of Chicago has a stronger brand on the East Coast, since people actually have a clue about the school, its stellar academic reputation, etc. (I imagine many prestige-blind Midwesterners think it's a weird state school without a football team).
That said, Notre Dame's brand is unbelievably strong to most people, even to we East Coast douches (though it probably impresses WASPs and Jews from the Northeast a lot less than it does other people).
I was in a similar spot last year. The truth of the matter is that outside factors are going to matter a heck of a lot more in securing your first job than the difference between ND and Dartmouth. Also, its unwise to make assumptions about GPA between two schools like these. A CC vs Dartmouth, obviously your're going to do better at the CC. Notre Dame Vs Dartmouth, a ton of shit out of your control will effect your grades bad Profs/GSI's ect.)
In short, error on the side of Dartmouth, but place cost and fit (especially social life if its important) above the small difference in prestige.
Full Disclosure: I go to a target public with a Ugrad Business Program. It's fucking awesome---perfect mix between partying and still being respectable when it comes to recruiting.
Also, just for fun, I would choose Notre Dame over Cornell, Columbia, and non-Wharton UPenn. I would choose Notre Dame over everyone but Harvard/Yale if they gave me significant money (I actually was in this very situation way back in the day).
I'm not assuming a 4.0 at ND. I said "close to a 4.0" which I would equate to a 3.9-4.0. My projected GPAs are obviously extremely unreliable predictions. The main jist of this question was to ask whether it is better to do very well at a great school or fairly well at an elite school.
dartmouth all the way. As long ur gpa above 3.5 it rarely matters anymore
I have a 3.8 at a MW school that none of you have probably heard of and got a BB internship in M&A for summer 13. It was all about networking. I went against kids that were from big ivies with higher GPA's than me in fact I was the known as the kid in the interviewee bullpen room from the only school that the MDs couldn't pinpoint on a national map. (They laughingly told me after). School is harder than you think it'll be. And in my experience the street is changing in terms of not just having a high GPA and an ivie getting you the best opportunities. I went to dozens (literally) of professional organizations/dinners/charity events until I had gotten a seat in final rounds simply because I had already impressed the people I'd be working under.
yeah see... you had to network.
The level of "douchbagery" of this topic is off the charts. Just pick a school. Go to said school. Study. Do your homework. Prepare for exams. Work your ass off (regardless of chosen school). Figure out what it means to go "above and beyond" and then do it. Network. Prepare for interviews. Don't be an asshole. Boom. You've got a shot. Yup, a "shot" and only a "shot." This world and industry owe you nothing regardless of the university name on your diploma. Think you can get a 4.0? Yea? Great. You've got confidence; you'll need that. Now go prove it.
It's WSO. That is all.
(agree with you).
From what I've seen, the people who I know going to dartmouth really hate it,.. but they try not to show it. They'll justify themselves by claiming how awesome the job opportunities or how they have this stupid bon fire once a year. You'll be in the middle of nowhere, no restaurants or clubs in vicinity (frat parties get old after a while) unless you go to Boston... which is a three hour bus ride. Winters are pretty rough as well. Don't know too much about ND, but if you had to choose between the two go for Dartmouth. Alumni is extremely tight (you'll have no problem finding an internship. Dartmouth alumni really look out for current dartmouth students) and prestigious firms recruit in large numbers all the time. Coming from a big city, I would never see myself being happy in dartmouth, but hey if you're an outdoors guy you'll love it. Also, college decisions haven't even come out yet, so I don't know why you're worrying about this so soon.
I have honestly never heard anyone disparage Dartmouth aside from people admitting that the drinking/hazing culture there goes a bit overboard at times. On the "Ivy undergrads who actually love their school" front, the only other Ivy I'd put up there with Dartmouth is Yale. I'm surprised to hear that your friends actually feel that way -- are they independents or something?
Its a small sample size, but I just feel it was a huge culture shock for my friends. Miami -> Hanover can be a difficult transition lol. Bear in mind my friends and I are freshmen; however, it seems that they're starting to appreciate Dartmouth more this semester in comparison to the last.
Under what standard is Notre Dame considered "2nd Tier" (I don't go there, BTW)?!? Someone needs to gain some perspective...
I'm not American and didn't go to college in the US either but work for a BB in NYC now and have been involved in superdays. Would just say I know several people on the floor from Dartmouth but none from ND fwiw.
Your GPA could very well be higher at Notre Dame. Ivies are known for grade inflation. (Don't know anything about Notre Dame's.) For the record, I think Dartmouth is leagues better than ND, which to me is a meh school with an incredibly overrated football team that NBC just can't shut up about. But I'm from the West coast, so there's probably some bias there. I'm sure ND plays better the further East you get.
Personally I haven't met too many finance folks in manhattan from ND. But if we're talking schools like Duke or Georgetown, then perhaps it's a more difficult decision, although to be fair you have no way of knowing what your GPA will be at any school.
maybe i'm wrong on this, but i assume a 3.9 at a "2nd" tier school (not that i agree with you calling ND 2nd tier) is not noticeably different from a 3.8 at a school like Dartmouth
Here is the issue with your logic. Let's say you take the "2nd tier" school and do not get a 3.9 but get a 3.6. You could have gone to the ivy league school and gotten a 3.6 or better. There is no gaurantee you do better at 2nd tier vs ivy league. Why would you take that chance? If you end up doing the same as you would have at the 2nd tier, ivy>2nd tier.
Would there be a way to compare alumni connections between Notre Dame and Dartmouth? I know this could be really hard to compare but some thoughts I was having were: the size of each university. Dartmouth is more prominent in Wall Street but Notre Dame is just bigger? Of course, some people will rant that quality over quantity but other than cliches, could someone help me out here?
Take a gap year and go to a big ten school that isn't ND. Alternatively, attend UVa/UNC/Vandy.
As a west coaster, all this bickering sounds retarded. But I guess this is wso's bread and butter topic.
Anyway go D, good school and ivy league is a prestige whores dream
Why not Notre Dame @Interdvark? Wouldn't Mendoza be as qualified as any other Big Ten's bschool?
is it also fair to say that at some point in time, when GPA doesn't matter that much, you should also evaluate your school as a brand 10 or 15 years down the line, when networking means more than an interview and actually means a conversation that could lead to somehow genuinely cool? and as such, you probably want to go to dartmouth instead (presuming you want to be on east coast finance). as for GPA, i think a 3.8 and 4.0 honestly makes no statement on how smart you are as a person - you're more than qualified to get an internship in my eyes or is a 3.8 pushing it on the low end from people's experience?
wat.
Dartmouth is known to have very loyal alumni. Alumni pull ridiculous favors for you without even knowing who you really are. Dartmouth for sure over ND for its loyal alumni network and the ivy league brand.
ND is a target school, Dartmouth isn't at a lot of places. Each BB will have ~5-7 ND kids in each incoming analyst class - like completely on par with the actually good ivies and other top undergrad B-schools.
Dartmouth will probably send 1-2, if that. But to be fair, a lot fewer Dartmouth kids are competing for the spots. If you end up going to Dartmouth, I used to work for a BSD Dartmouth guy who tries his best to bring Dartmouth kids to the street, so if you end up going there shoot me a PM in a couple years and ill put you in touch.
Honestly, ND is the better school for finance, but if I were you I'd go to Dartmouth. You do realize that ND is catholic, right? So you'll be surrounded by all the various greasy catholic ethnicities, such as the Spanish, Italians, French, Latins, Portuguese, Irish...
Personally I just couldn't do it. I'd rather fuck fat bitches at Dartmouth for 4 years than have to fuck Catholics at ND.
Ivy League > everything.
If you don't wanna trust that, go ahead and learn the hard way. But seriously tho, while yes UND has acct/finance majors and Dmouth only has econ, the recruiters, HR people pretty much assume all (or nearly all) Ivy League students are genius as opposed to "really/pretty smart." Also, if you're at Dartmouth, networking with people from other Ivy League schools is way easier than if you go to UND. Another thing: Ivy Leaugers/Little Threes go to Wall Street left and right with history/poli sci/English degrees all the time, because in reality, except for quants, you kinda learn it all over when you train.
LAC vs Ivy (Originally Posted: 03/22/2014)
I am a HS senior and was accepted to Cornell, Notre Dame, and Amherst College. I know that all 3 are solid options, but I am curious about the IB/Consulting recruiting at these schools. I'm not basing my decision around this, but it's a factor i'm considering. Thanks for any advice.
Amherst
Amherst.
I actually have not met that many ND grads in finance - the alumni network is supposed to be good, but Amherst's is good as well. Cornell is not exactly the most fun school to attend, and recruiting is arguably weaker than Amherst.
Overlooked advantage of LACs is that you have less competition. There are likely under 30 people in a given class gunning for IB (of finance in general). Most students either want to go to grad school or build schools in the Congo.
Amherst. Other two are roughly the same in my opinion; Cornell maybe slightly better.
Notre Dame's presence in NYC is not that strong. Perhaps more of a target for Chicago.
You can't go wrong with Cornell (esp. if you're in AEM) or Amherst, but I would personally choose Amherst given the reasons above (MUCH less competition, especially relative to Cornell)
ND is not really a target in Chicago either. It is a solid semi-target. I would go with Amherst especially because you would be in the minority of kids looking into finance.
Thanks for the advice. one of the benefits of Amherst is that I would be able to take half my classes at the consortium schools (Umass, Hampshire, Smith) and it would be a significant GPA booster compared with serious grade deflation at Cornell. I am slightly worried about Amherst's small alumni network though. There are only about 10k amherst alums vs cornells 100k and nd's 50k. Add this to the fact that most amherst alums are not working in finance. Is the larger network a big enough reason to attend Cornell or ND over Amherst?
I know tons of EBs and BBs come recruit on Cornell campus; not sure of Amherst.
You want a good experience in college as well. Have fun a little bit. I came to college wanting to be a psychologist, ended up being a baller interested in IB. I had friends interested in IB, now they are cokeheads with an "undecided" major 3 years in. A lot changes in 4 years..
FWIW, GS TMT this past summer had 3 cornell kids and 2 first years.
That useless factoid aside, I'd vote Amherst - small school feel, great academics, and decent access to finance.
I don't really know much about the other two schools but-- at least experience-- Cornell has serious grade Inflation, not deflation.
Oh, In addition, I transferred from a relatively prestigious lac, and I can honestly say, that the difference-- in terms of on campus recruiting and university-name brand recognition-- is staggering. At the lac, there were no networking or info sessions with top firms in either consulting I-banks, and, although it happened, it was a rare occurrence for anyone to get an internship or FT offer from a BB, without being a personal friend of someone with serious influence. That being said, this could be more of a reflection of the particular lac that I attended than lacs in general. Good luck !
Amherst for sure. Loyal alumni network and the small school feel can't be beaten.
Even though most of the people here are voting for Amherst, here's my 2 cents:
Cornell is higher ranked, has the ivy-league status, more people on the Street, and tons of top firms come recruit on campus. I would go look-up the placement statistics and would strongly consider attending Cornell over Amherst.
Cornell is higher ranked? Huh?
Banking: Cornell hands down. I've heard from a couple friends of mine that go to Cornell, every single BB recruits at cornell and JP, for example, took 56 kids from Cornell last year for internship(of course, most for MO and BO)
Consulting at Cornell sucks through. MBB dont really recruit on campus
Notre Dame would not be target for banking,
Not sure about LAC
are there any amherst alums who can give their perspective? really appreciate it.
Went to Amherst - can't recommend it highly enough and wouldn't choose anywhere else if I could do it again. People commenting generally right, there is a lot less competition for finance jobs. Most people want to go to law school, med school, or maybe get a PhD.
I graduated in 2009 and most of the BBs still showed up on campus, I had friends from my fraternity doing banking at MS, Barclays, DB, as well as mutual funds in Boston (Fidelity actually pulls a lot of undergrads from Amherst). I know other people who went to GS, JP, Citi, and UBS. McKinsey, Bain, and Deloitte also usually pull a few people every year. The alumni network is incredibly supportive.
Happy to talk offline if you want to PM me.
I come from a football college, and would like to say that tailgating and football games were some of the best times I've had in college. Don't know if you're into sports, but if you are, ND has a huge plus on that end. Can't say too much on placement into IB, but a quick LinkedIn search shows they place just fine into Chicago and NY.
Never really looked into LACs when applying to college, but Amherst does well. I have a bunch of high school buddies that goes to Cornell, and opinions are mixed. I think engineering and pre-med students have horrible experiences, but econ might be a bit better. You have some solid choices, and can't really go wrong with any.
I don't know why everyone is saying ND isn't a target for Chicago IB. Personally, I don't even like the school and a lot of the alums are annoying as shit but they're literally all over the place in banks in Chicago.
That being said, I'd take Amherst or Cornell over ND for sure.
I would personally choose Cornell because of the global brand recognition. There are more people from cornell on wall street than at amherst (not to discredit amherst).
Amherst all day. I know some people will disagree with me here but Amherst is on par with the ivies in terms of academics, prestige, and is probably better than the lower ranked ivies to be honest. What Amherst will lack is on campus recruiting and direct lines to jobs;however, alumni networks at these top LACs are extremely strong and I'm sure you'll find that there are a bunch of Econ majors every year who make it into finance without too much trouble. As long as you do well, you will have plenty of opportunities to do whatever you want with Amherst on your resume.
Cornell would be big, impersonal, lots of competition for recruiting, and although its a good school people beat on Cornell all the time for being a fake Ivy.
ND would be good and you would have a lot of fun while still getting a good name and having access to jobs, alumni, etc, but its not nearly as good of a school as Amherst.
I would take Amherst for academics,the strongest name, and giving you the flexibility to change your mind about your career. I'm a believer that you can do a lot with a liberal arts education and you see tons of kids each year with liberal arts degrees from top schools( top ivies, LACs) go on and do great things. Why limit yourself to IB now, find a place where you can grow and explore over the next 4 years and make the decision when the time comes.
I can comment on LAC recruiting: Amherst and Williams definitely get OCR from most/all of the bulge brackets, and place well at buyside AM jobs (Fidelity/Putnam/Wellington/etc). Swarthmore does not - mainly because the average Swarthmore student isn't interested in finance.
Midd / Bowdoin / Pomona / CMC are a step down in recruiting (CMC gets recruiting better than the rankings imply, due to the school's econ / finance focus). But they still get on campus recruiting from most BBs, and place quite well.
But once you start getting to schools lower in the rankings (e.g. Davidson, Haverford, Vassar) recruiting falls off very quickly. They're still great schools - but I haven't seen nearly as many alumni in finance.
is the difference in network size between Amherst and Cornell a major factor? Because right now that is the only reason I am still considering Cornell
target vs. ivy target -- need all your help again in deciding (Originally Posted: 06/02/2008)
after reading that other dude's thread about banking adn student loans, it seems like a lot of you are in favor of going to the ivy league school even though there's a lot of debt involved. my situation's a bit more complex.
Financial aid was a bit wacky so here's what it looks like for me:
Columbia University - 150k in debt after graduation Northwestern University - less than 30k in debt after graduation
I want to get into private equity straight from undergrad (I know there are people going to tell me not to, but this aint the thread to do it) and I know breaking into PE is really difficult and it might be an advantage coming out of Columbia than it is coming out of NU
If it came down to pure fit, I'd give the slight edge to Northwestern because I like the traditional college feel better than I like the straight up urban college setting of NU
Bottom line...
Is Columbia worth the extra 120k+ to attend over a solid target like Northwestern?
yes it is.
Paying off 120k sucks
Assuming you get into PE, work for a few years, and continue after business school (where your earning power will be pretty strong), you'd probably have it all paid off fairly quickly (5-10 years, so that depends whether that is quick for you). While I don't know about Northwestern, Chicago gives you the obvious proximity to alot of the action, with the opportunity to intern with any number of PE houses in NYC. Good luck, man! They say it's nice to get into the old boy's club soon, and in PE, my view is it means alot.
No way is it worth paying 120K to go to columbia over northwestern. In all seriousness, you can get into PE from NW too. I know friends who have done so already. PM me and I will give you his or her email. Seriously, you will enjoy Northwestern a lot.
No way, at that level it wont really matter if you go to columbia or northwestern.
IMHO it's not worth the additional $120k
Whoops - I meant I prefer Northwesterns campus over Columbia
Thanks for the input guys. To be honest, I don't think columbias worth an extra 120k either.
If you're getting better financial aid from Northwestern, just tell Columbia. Ivies are usually pretty good with matching. Then the choice becomes $30k at Columbia vs. $30k at NU -- a much easier decision, in my opinion.
And just my opinion on Northwestern: I spent three days there with my friend who goes there. I thought it was a lame-ass school. What parties we found (there barely were any Thursday through Saturday) sucked. The campus seemed dead and the girls were fugly. Everyone in the dorms got up at 10am (!) on Saturday and Sunday morning, for some weird reason. It may be a Big Ten school, but it's no Michigan/Penn State/Wisconsin/Indiana (or even Minnesota). Oh yeah, have fun going to school until mid-June.
Yes, needless to say, I really didn't like Northwestern.
Go to NU you will have a much better time with hotter girls, have the nearly the same recruiting opportunities, and you can buy yourself a porsche with all the money you save
;)
Just thinking about this, I haven't met one Northwestern alum at my bank. How odd. Not to say they don't exist, but it's weird come to think of it.
I always viewed the strength of NU in its professional schools like Kellogg and its med program. Northwestern is quite pretty and definitely will give you a more "college-y" feel. That being said, Columbia definitely gives a lot more opportunity to break into PE straight out of college. The easy access of the city allows a lot of students to work part time at different places all while taking classes. While i'm sure NU does place a few people in PE right after graduation, CU has a solid finance network and makes it relatively easy to get in touch with alums who are willing to help. You also have access to a pretty good CBS network (or so people have told me).
You will get a great education at both schools (obviously). I think Columbia is worth the $ (although 120k does seem very steep. Definitely call them and see if they can do any better with that package. They are negotiable). If you end up doing something other than finance, you will have a great alum network and internship network through the years.
Then again, if you have a serious problem or are very anxious/nervous about carrying that much debt, then for your mental health's sake, go with NU. Student loans are actually pretty harmless to have (i think MisInd has mentioned this numerous times and has really good insight to it).
Nah columbia is NOT matching any financial ai offers. They say their funds are limited for transfers.
The alumni network at NU is pretty strong too and I've actually heard that columbias alums don't really give back much to the school (less than 20% of columbia alums donate) so that could be an indication of something.
The only two reasons why I'm considering columbia is:
Are these two reasons worth the money? Or am I stupid for even thinking about columbia
Nah columbia is NOT matching any financial ai offers. They say their funds are limited for transfers.
The alumni network at NU is pretty strong too and I've actually heard that columbias alums don't really give back much to the school (less than 20% of columbia alums donate) so that could be an indication of something.
The only two reasons why I'm considering columbia is:
Are these two reasons worth the money? Or am I stupid for even thinking about columbia
if you want to boil it down to those two points , then probably not. If I were you, i'd talk to current NU and columbia students (seniors and juniors) and gauge their opinions. They would know better than anyone the recruiting atmosphere and alum network. I speak with a bias since I know a ton of Columbia kids. all the NU students I know are part of the med program.
Meriwether went to NU
hey thanks guys for helping me out its awesome
at the bank that i work in, there isn't anyone from NU either. Also, I really do think the proximity of columbia to nyc PE shops is quite understated in this thread. Most of my friends either worked in a bank or a pe firm during the semester. Admittedly, it wasn't really hard/important stuff, but it was definitely something they could write about on their resume. Anyways, def. up to you, but don't discount columbia's preception/location to finance internships.
Work hard at NU, land a great job, and reap the benefits of saving 120k.
you people have never met anybody at your banks because NU students WANT to work in Chicago. NU draws most of its students from the midwest and they want to stay in the midwest. students from the coasts often end up liking chicago so much too that they stay.
going to NYC is not a problem if thats what you want to do. all the banks recruit for both chicago and new york. There is a large alumni network you can lookup online at every single bank in both chicago and new york. for whatever reason Goldman and Lehman seem to be the biggest employers as far as ibanking goes.
the network is much stronger than other schools due to the aforementioned college feel- football, homecoming, reunions, etc.
if you are a transfer student you will also likely commit suicide at columbia due to the lack campus cohesion
I am a UChicago student who wishes he went to NU. I have been to parties at Wisconsin and can say that NU parties are better and the girls are hotter.
Honestly I would choose northwestern over columbia coming out of high school even if the cost was the same. the quality of life is significantly higher and recruiting is comparable. name recognition means a lot less once you get to college and realize that these could be the best four years of your life. trust me. do you want to look back on college once youre old and gray and remember a highlight of your life or do you want to sacrifice that for slightly better name recognition among average joes.
I would personally go to NU. But I might be biased as I'm originally from Chicago and recently graduated from a Big Ten university. I think you should focus on which city appeals to you more. Lets face it, Columbia will get you into NYC 10x's faster. NU will most likely get you into a Chicago office quicker. We all know about NYC and the opportunities it offers, but I have heard recently that the PE market in Chicago is huge and growing. Cant remember who I heard that from but Im pretty sure they were a credible source. Also, saying you want to go into PE straight out of undergrad is setting the bar extremely high. Not saying it cant be done, and I hope you get what you set out to do, but do not focus all your attention there as it is an unusual occurrence.
i go to NU and going into banking. Seriously i would pick NU with a heartbeat. I have spent four year here and about to graduate, and I can say hands down that NU gives you the same calibre education as ivies and more importantly a much better college experience. Road trip to Big Ten football games around the Midwest, going to W-Madison for parties and study at one of the most beautiful college campuses in the country are things you won't get at CU. If you are determined to get into banking/PE, there's the opportunity for you at NU w/o at doubt. You have your whole life to conquer Wallstreet, but really you're undergrad only ones - it's the best time of your life.
PM me for any questions - be more than glad to help you out.
I'd make the decision to go to Columbia and not look back. The exposure you'll get in NYC w/ as well as one of the strongest Ivy alumni networks is well worth the cost. If you pick NU, you'll always wonder whether Columbia would have been worth it. Give it a shot and transfer out if it doesn't go your way, although I've never met a Columbia kid who didn't love it.
Agree with nystateofmind. If it were me, I would definitely choose Columbia. The strong ivy league network will be available to you for the rest of your life, it's hard to put a price on that.
nystateofmind - you've always given great advice on this board and I definitely see where you're coming from, but I think your advice is a bit skewed because you're in a position where 125k or 150k means relatively little to you because of your success. But remember that I am only 19 years old and I come from a very poor family and Columbia financial aid kinda screwed us over. Call me petty or cheap, but 125k is a lot of money to me! Heck, even taking out 30k in loans seems overwhelming at the moment.
I can see myself being very happy at an intellectual and cosmopolitan school like Columbia, but the constant knowledge of being 150k in debt would dampen my spirits fairly quickly.
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