I believe that Ivey is probably the best in Canada but for some reason Financial Times rankings places ivey at rank 31 with Rotman in 24 and Schulich at 18! I am not knocking Rotman or Schulich at all but shouldn't Ivey be higher then those 2? and thats not just the Financial times rankings, alot of other rankings dont even include Ivey but instead include Queens and Schulich. Why is this?
Can some ibankers or employers please give me their opinion on which school IBanks look at? I'm sure they might look at all 3 but which do they hire more grads from. I always thought ivey was the best choice in Canada. Thanks
well im not an ibanker...yet. But as a Canadian who was accepted to all these schools and chose Schulich over the others, I can inform you a bit of what I found out. Ivey in the last few years has been going down slowly, the reason why they had such a good rep in canada as a Finance powerhouse is because in the late 90s boom Ibanks everywhere were hiring like crazy, sometimes from Canadian schools namely Ivey. But once that ended the American firms forgot about Ivey and stuck with Harvard/wharton etc. lately its been going down while Queens pretty much stayed the same and Schulich rising rapidly.
But I still believe for Finance many consider Ivey and Rotman the best MBA programs.
How does McGill compare to these schools? In terms of recruitment?
ugh double posting. sorry.
well McGill is kind of in the same position as Ivey. They are clinging on to a past reputation as "Harvard of the North", the university as a whole is going downhill. Their undergrad program is considered 2nd tier after the top 3 (Schulich, Queens and Ivey) and their MBA is not as good as Rotman,Ivey,Schulich and Queens. However, many top Ibanks such as Lazard from time to time do hire from McGill because that is where there Canadian branch is located. Like i said in the other post in terms of finance in Canada go with Rotman or Ivey.
So Ivey and Rotman are the way to go for Finance but are the programs at Schulich and Queens good for investment banking as well? I have heard they are better at churning out "managers" rather then IBankers, is this true?
And do American Ibanks like Goldman, Lehman, Meryll, Morgan etc hire from Ivey as well?
As the poster above said a lot of the VP's and MD' @ the IB shops are IVEY & McGill Alumni. So I believe they will keep recruting there.
does IB shops refer to just boutique firms? and are these only Canadian Boutique firms? OR does it include BB and international BBs. Thanks again people!
McGill isn't what it used to be, its still a great school but I think in the next 5-10 years it won't be the "Harvard of Canada".
I applied to both McGill and JMSB(the two english business programs in montreal). I was accepted to both but JMSB seemed to have a more attractive program imo.
*JMSB: John Molson Shool of Business, Concordia university's business program.
Schulich is a second rate school full of 23 year old international hopeufuls with sub 600 gmat scores who couldn't get in anywhere else... no wonder they jumped on up the league tables based on their salary increase ratio. Ivey still rocks, but it's main strength is alumni, as pointed out earlier. It is dying a slow death. McGill is trying hard to hold on the Harvard of the north brand recogition it has, but is is done inside Canada, and dare I say, North America. This leaves us with Rotman. Rotman has a brilliant Finance faculty, great strategy faculty and great economists on board. The only problem is that the school has been trying to make up for it's relative weakness in Marketing and Consulting by going for the Integrative thinking crap which in its application is common sense at best and counter-intuitive at worst.
Schulich is second rate and Ivey is getting there fast. If UofT ever gets its act together, Rotman will be hands-down top school in Canada.
uh have you guys even seen the recruiting companies at all these Canadian schools....its almost identical,not that much difference in terms of numbers.
u talking ivey hba or mba? FT, WSJ, etc. r ranking mba, not ugrad. hba program is by far strongest ugrad biz program in canada for ibanking recruiting. every cdn bank takes several ivey hba for analyst positions every year (place around 30 kids on bay street a year), but u will see queens, laurier, mcgill, etc at final round iviews with ivey kids--more ivey kids on bay street than other schools combined. ivey is much stronger with US banks, particularly in LA and does well in NYC. ivey is really the only cdn ugrad school with formal US recruiting, and majority of US banks on bay street take hbas. hbas regularly go to GS NYC, CIBC WM NYC, UBS LA, CSFB LA, etc. and rank top in class, in addtn to all cdn banks. various alum at KKR, LGP, Blackstone, ARES, etc.
I'm an Ivey alumnus (MBA) and an investment banker. Perhaps I can be helpful. I've worked for both Bay Street and Wall Street and can assure you that Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Goldman, Credit Suisse, Citigroup, Merrill, a number of other U.S. banks and all of the Canadian bulge and boutique banks recruit at Ivey (MBA & HBA). Ivey sends folks down to Wall Street every year and, for certain banks, is the only Canadian business school at which they do on-campus recruiting.
That is not to say that Rotman, Schulich or Queens are not good schools. Frankly, very talented people graduate from all of those names every year. Unfortunately, I haven
If I finish an undergrad in Mathematics & Economics and don't get into an MBA, should I apply for the HBA? Would it be worth the two years?
^where do you work right now and do you have any advice for someone entering first year uni. at Schulich and is planning to get into ibanking.
I work at a bank-owned dealer in Calgary. The first thing you need to do is research banks and find out how each one differentiates themselves and in which areas they are particularly strong. I would suggest going through on-campus recruiting for those that are there and directly approaching banks that don
Thank you so much Nayls. This is great Advice. I'm currently completing my undergrad at the University of Alberta [not so great a school] but I do have a 3.9 GPA and am majoring in Finance. Because the UofA isn't really a reputable school, what are my chances of even being looked at for an interview for a Canadian IBank? or maybe even a US IBank? Like i said, i do understand my school is not the best so I have decided that i might have to take the MBA route to get into IBanking. If this proves to ultimately be the case, what type of industry would you suggest me getting into during my 3-5 years of work experience before MBA B-SChool that would best prepare me for the post IBanking route? Should i try to get into a wealth management firm or Work the treasury side of a corporation? Thanks in advance. Oh and on campus recruiting is not an option for me since Canadian IBanks rarely recruit at the UofA.
Firstly, bashing your school won't help you, so never do it in an interview. Be supportive and stick to the positives when talking about your school. Secondly, we have alumni from UofA in our office and I know there are more around, so the alumni strategy is still a good one. Thirdly, I'm pretty sure we do on campus recruiting at UofA, at least we saw undergraduate students from there last year. We didn't take any, but we saw them. If there is no on-campus recruiting, there is nothing stopping you from directly approaching banks and boutiques. This is how I got in out of undergrad. Use whatever your school will provide you in terms of contacts (again, this is one of the keys to choosing a school if you ask me) and aggressively pursue them. There are a number of profiles that we look for when hiring; one of them is great grades from a top school. Another might be varsity or pro sports and decent grades. Another might be tons of volunteer and community involvement and decent grades. Another might be a 40-hour workweek to support yourself while still being involved in extra-curricular activities and keeping decent grades. Recruiting is an art, not a science. We look for either really smart people that work hard at school, or really smart people that spend a lot of time doing something other than watching TV or playing video games. Basically, an ideal candidate has good judgment, works hard and can demonstrate how dedicated he or she can be. Anything you can do to get noticed in a positive way is beneficial. Having someone come in, find your resume and put it in the interview pile makes all the difference. The first screen for resumes is often brutal. Canadian banks and U.S. banks have very much the same strategy when it comes to hiring. Obviously the UofA has more cache in Calgary than NYC, but I wouldn
I agree with Nayls. I also went to Ivey (HBA).
Almost all the major Ibanks and Consulting forms come to Ivey (GS, JPM, Merrill, UBS, CSFB, etc. plus all the other Canadian firms)
Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it.
What about jumping over from the big 4? I am an accountant and want to get into PE.
I am also completing the CBV (Chartered Business Valuator) does this pull any weight?
Thanks for the heads up.
Do you have a CA or CPA designation as well?
I would think that moving from accounting directly to PE may be a challenge. Generally speaking, PE draws from the investment banking ranks. There is a stigma that accountants find lots of problems and very few solutions. A strategy may be to try to get into investment banking for a year or two and then look at moving into PE. That strategy would have merit as you learn things like how to anticipate market receptivity, how to sell a security to institutions and how to identify opportunities that are not being noticed by the market. I think investment banking is a unique opportunity to observe an industry through the eyes of multiple CEO/CFOs and learn the strategic reasons for decisions from the decision-makers. I think that is one of the key reasons PE firms look at ibankers more than other industries. An MBA may also be a path directly into PE firms, but work experience in a specific industry or in finance (as opposed to accounting) makes a difference.
On the CBV question, I looked into it myself. My own opinion is that there is little or no incremental learning over other, broader designations (MBA, CFA) and that it is a lot of work for little gain. Several ibankers of the older generation have their CBV but I understand that was largely because they used to allow MBAs with significant relevant experience to
An HBA is an undergraduate degree in business. An MBA is a masters degree in business. An MBA (at Ivey anyway) requires a minimum of two years of work experience. There would be no value in working several years, applying for an MBA and then going back for an HBA. Besides, I understand the HBA program to be extremely competitive and possibly more difficult to get into than the MBA program.
I'm sorry what is the HBA program at ivey? I always thought it was just the name of their 4 year undergrad program.
It is a 4 year program...
What happens is that a first year student at UWO signs on to do 2 years of relatively general study in other fields...usually NOT business except for one of the requried courses (I believe Business 257 or sth like that which is Stats and Accounting)
After the 2 years, if the grades are there, than admittance to the Richard Ivey School of Business is offered to the student where he or she does another 2 years of concentrated business school courses centred around Ivey's popular cases.
The first two years are basic tuition of 4000 CDN but the last two years are 18000 CDN for CANADIANS.
Quite the expensive degree...worth it? Not sure. Loads of Ivey kids swear by it...most say they paid loads for nothing. But one thing for sure, the Ivey kids OWN the undergrad recruiting scene in I-Banking in Canada.
And btw...
I'm a McGill undergrad, Joint Honours Econ-Finance.
Its a tough program but IMO not worth. McGill as a uni isn't bad...but much can be done to improve it. If you got a choice and the money...go to Ivey...or better yet the States.
I love Montreal and all...but seriously...I wish I had gone elsewhere.
I also agree that IVEY is the best for undergrad and MBA in Canada. While its up to debate whether the program content is the best, I do agree that in terms of prestige of recruting to I-Banking, Ivey wins hands down. But then again I-Banking is all amount pedigree isnt it?
For MBA only, you guys think Ivey has an edge over Rotman considering Ivey has a strong alumni base?
I was leaning towards Rotman or one of the top 15 US schools. But thats not till 2-3 years.
Though being on the S&T side I'd goto Rotman just for John Hull's classes.
Hmmm...well I would have to say that Rotman's MBA is not too bad but wouldn't you consider Schulich a better competitor to Ivey?
And regarding Ivey...its true, the alumi base is much stronger. Just look at all the execs of the Canadian Big 6 and you'll see most of them come from Ivey.
I do think there is an advantage in Ivey over Rotman. Not only is the alumni network larger and more influential in banking, it is also larger and more influential in the client community (any personal connection is important on the margin). One class might prepare you for a specific job, but the overall MBA is what you are paying for. Rotman grads tend to come out of school able to tackle the job immediately (as do Ivey grads) but Ivey grads tend to outperform Rotman grads after 2 or 3 years. The case approach is the biggest difference as it teaches an approach to problem solving whereas the lecture-based program teaches you fundamentals. Fundamentals are important (and also taught at Ivey) but it doesn't take long on the job to know them inside-out anyway. I'd say overall there is a considerable advantage to Ivey. Personal opinion of course.
BTW - great story - one of the guys I graduated with at Ivey went into sales/trading and has done amazingly. Not only is he making tons of money, but they promoted him ahead of five or six more senior guys after only a few years. Let's see John Hull teach that!
Why do you say Schulich is better then Ivey? I'm not sure which is, just curious hence why i started this forum.
No I meant that I consider Schulich is better than Rotman...hence it should be Ivey's closest competitor.
From what I've seen, Schulich doesn't place as many people into Ibanking as Rotman. I'm sure it's a good school but I'd still say Rotman is Ivey's key competitor; I just don't feel that Schulich is in the same league. I will say though that Rotman/Schulich place almost exclusively in Toronto whereas Ivey grads run the shops across the country (not just Toronto) and have outstanding placement into the U.S. BB.
Hey Nayls, Thanks for the tips and insight. I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. I was just wondering how you approached the whole situation in applying to B-school to do your MBA. It's a pretty big decision, and one that I'll hopefully come across in the next few years as I gain some more industry experience. Did you look at American schools, or were you pretty set on Ivey, and or, the rest of the top Ontario schools? Your thoughts on the value of the CFA charter are interesting. I am going to be writing the second level in June/07 so I guess you could say I'm committed, and perhaps an advocate, of the charter. But that may just be because I come from the retail side. Last point: funny how you say mention to stay away from law. Are all those corp fin/M&A litigators just a bunch of chumps that take orders from the I-bankers? Thanks in advance.
Just to clarify, alot of the BB banks do OCR in Canada.
At McGill, we had visits from GS, UBS, the Big 6 and Lazard whereas JPM, MS and ML sent EMAILS to our Finance Department and asked PROFESSORS to refer their top students to them.
At Ivey, they get visits from everyone so I heard.
Either way, I don't believe it is right to say that one should despair if you come from a CDN institution of the caliber of Queens/McGill/Ivey/Rotman/Schulich. The recruitment is there, so are the interviews.
First, I wouldn't say lawyers are chumps. Quite the opposite. I would say that the job is challenging and important, they just look at a different part of the acquisition. Generally, the legal aspect is a limited part of investment banking business and an area in which we can get good advice from external firms. Some investment bankers who came from law try to "outlawyer" the external lawyers and spend less time on aspects that bankers should be doing. In addition, lawyers are trained to look only at the downside of a deal whereas bankers should be trained to look at the upside as well as the downside. And that is without mentioning that lawyers tend not to understand the businesses as well and are not trained to give financial advice.
On the B-school process, I looked at Harvard and Wharton and was turned down. They told me that they love my experience, essays and application but that they like Canadians who worked in Canada. They like Americans who work overseas and they like people from overseas but they don't like Canadians who worked overseas as they can get the same diversification from other candidates. Because of that I was marginal and they told me I would have been accepted if I applied in another year (I applied in 2001). I only applied to Ivey in Canada and have never regretted going there as I lived, studied and partied with some of the best, most talented people I have ever met.
My views on the CFA are not that it is a bad designation for people without experience, only that some people try to hold it out as an MBA equivalent, which I completely disagree with. It teaches raw formulas (with little or no application) and a smattering of overly obfuscated ethical rules that often conflict with each other. I think if you
Yes Nayls I would agree that Ivey has the best penetration into the states and Asia (because of its partnerships with HKU..or was it HKUST for the E-MBA)
Ivey is pretty much the only Canadian grad school with the clout to compete its just I'm not that big a fan of cases 24/7! LOL...
This thread is interesting...as an Ivey HBA grad I would absolutely agree with the general consensus. I have friends that went to each of the top Canadian b-schools and none of them have had access to the same opportunities that I received. Working in nyc is unheard of for other schools. I have one alumni mentor who works for a top consulting firm in England and another who is a media exec in nyc.
Ivey kids also get jobs because they are very well coached in networking. I remember we went to a finance networking event at Rotman once where most other b-schools were also invited and the Ivey kids just dominated recruiters' attention. Of course it's nothing compared to the level U.S. kids are at but still impressive.
Nayls - Agreed on the Ivey alumni part, that is the schools biggest strength. However, I think their new one year program is a bad idea. As for the case based approach, I think (being a Rotman grad who turned down the other two, and you know who I mean) it is taught in Rotman much the same way as Ivey, all my second year finance classes are case based --that is just hearsay that is 15 years too old, I am sure you agree. The same would go for Ivey grads aging better, like old wine. Makes no sense from a logical point of view when the case based approach is taught at both schools and Rotman is a better finance school, the best in Canada, and top 10 globally I believe.
Ivey does have the edge in OCR, but we had CS, UBS, ML and Citigroup recruit on campus this year for IB, S&T and FI.
Anyway, I do not want to turn into a pissing contest, I have seen enough do well on Bay st with a Rotman MBA, but our alumni network is nowhere close to Iveys and no one outside of NA knows either school anyway.
Greetings from Peru (I am Peruvian :!). During the past 6 months Ive been doing extensive research over the internet about MBA programs worldwide and have reached to the following personal conclusions. (BTW I will apply to 5-6 schools this year, first time applications)
General: 1 year MBAs are much more attractive than 2 year ones. You name it; time, opportunity cost, ROI, fast paced and intensive (they recreate business environments much better), etc. All that internship, career changers, and remaining bla bla cannot stand the extreme advantages that 1Y progs have. If u r quite smart, focused and hard worker you wont need an extra 12 months to learn business concepts. And believe me, business theory and related courses are a piece of cake compared to subjects such as medicine/philosophy/etc.
US programs are so OVERRATED! yeah sure, Harvard, Stanford, Wharton and the likes are great schools but none of these can claim to be the "top" schools. The world is so US centric that a collective state of mind has been agreed to place these great schools on top. Why is Harvard better than INSEAD? is IMD less competitive than Columbia? taking it further, could somebody discard Indian School of Business just because it doesnt appear in the rankings? Every program has its strenghts and weaknesses. US schools are amazing, great names (and millions of US$) back up theri reputation. Still, even Nobel Prize winners can deliver the classes/lectures but it will almost depend on the student to get the most from his/her learning. Said this, all top 50 schools will care greatly about the quality of their teaching staff and student bodies. I am 100% certain that Judge Business School at Cambridge or UWO Ivey, to mention some, have an outstanding pool of candidates and students such as Chicago or Tuck. The difference? stupid gmat scores which predict crap.
Taking about the GMAT, stupid standardized test created for the sole sake of pulling out millions of dollars from everybody, everywhere. I have taken the GMAT already and scored a decent 680 (my native language is Spanish!). Do I feel having the GMAT "smart human" seal of approval? BS, more than ever I believe its S..T. Ive seen a couple of brilliant friends (brilliant by intl. standards) not making it into US B Schools due to GMAT. However, Oxford Said and HEC Paris now enjoy the attendance of two Peruvians that will definitely leave a mark. Sorry Kellogg! But GMAT is not only GMAC´s business. BSchools are business partners of this joke too. GMAT predicts nothing! BAN THE F....G GMAT for humankind´s benefit!
CANADIAN MBAs
My perception, based on hard facts and personal choice, ranks Canadian MBAs in the following order.
1, Ivey 2, Rotman 3, Schulich 4, Queens 5, HEC Montreal 6, McGill 7, Sauder 8, Molson 9, Haskayne 10, the rest
Why?
Hard facts. When checking out BSchools a pragmatic individual must look at 1. Costs (financial and opportunity), 2. Career prospects (avg. postMBA salaries, on campus recruiters, school career services, university´s reputation, etc) and 3. Alumni network.
Personal choice. Teaching style, professors, location, size of prog. (even weather conditions!)
Based on all the abovementioned Ivey (100) tops the list with a clear advantage over Rotman (85), Schulich (75) and Queens (65).
Sure, tell me about Toronto having and edge over London or that Dean Martin is such a business guru or that Schulich places number 18 in the FT rankings. Again, bla bla, I care about those things that will give me an edge over my competitors when I graduate. And, immune to Canadian citizen´s bias, Ivey leads them all. The best reputation among the Canadian business community, the strongest alumni network, the best career services team (18 folks working for you!), a personal attention without being too small (how will Queens position itself with just 60-70 graduates per year? not even IMD!) and a holistic approach to business education. We can have different opinions and I respect them all but firmly believe gossip will never defeat reality. Said this, I will apply to Judge (Cambridge), Said (Oxford), INSEAD and IVEY. Will I be admitted to any of them? God only knows but one thing is for sure. Whichever school I attend will give me a great educational and personal experience. The world is much much much bigger and interesting than the US. best regards from Lima
Thanks for the post, I find your strong B-school opinions and gung-ho attitude eerily similar to my own views before entering B-school. It all changes 1.5 years into the program and after a summer internship where one is beaten into submission along with others from competing business schools who are basically the same. Additionally, I find your "hand facts" interesting, given that I didn't see any except for a ranking... but no argument here, just a comment!
Ivey has a great rep, based on it leading the Canadian business school market for the past 20 years. It has the alumni support and the OCR (although others are getting in on this too). Over the years, Ivey applications have been declining (320 for the fall of 2001 to approximately 160 for 2005 -based on 580 applications) for a reason and that is due to Rotman emerging on the scene. I got into Ivey, Rotman and Schulich and decided to invest my time and money into a program that I feel will dominate in the years to come, as opposed to one that is standing on laurels earned in past years. That being said, Ivey is a brilliant program and my two other main reasons for Rotman were that it is a much stronger finance school (which was a paramount for me) and that it is in downtown Toronto.
As for the one year point (which is not really a one year point, since Ivey's program is a bit more than a one year program), that is your own personal opinion. There is a reason why many (such as myself) prefer a two year program and your arguments for a one year program based on opportunity cost will ring true for some and I definitely feel the burden from not earning, however I am of the firm belief that a top level MBA program should be two years based on the ground work required for the program coupled with an effective summer internship (which more than pays for itself, so technically not time lost). Succesful 1 year programs have historically been European, which are often more EMBA based, like Queens (whose rankings have been slowly slipping every year). HBS and Sloan both tried one year programs and abandoned them because they were complete failures.
Additionally, my points above do not mean that I am a Rotman cheerleader. I am one of those who has actively criticised the school for a number of things, including the Integrative thining curricula (which Ivey has also embarked on, called cross-enterprise leadership; fair enough since we are more case based now), which should remain at a workshop, or general class integration level. However, this does not change my view of the school, and/or it's relative strengths or weaknesses.
Thanks for ur reply. On a quick note, I would say that strong opinions do not entitle a gung-ho attitude, anyways, not the main point. As far as your comments go, I agree with you that Rotman will become a highly regarded school. I guess Schulich will follow that trend though to a lesser extent. Regarding the "hard facts" I meant the alumni network, post MBA salaries and Career Services staff numbers. In all these categories, Ivey has a clear lead over the rest in Canada. However, if you feel you can afford the 2nd year costs, as extremely high as they are, its up to you to make that move. The main point is feeling that all the effort is worth and that you go out well prepared and ready to make a difference. I disagree when you indirectly suggest that Ivey´s 1 year program will fail, I believe it will be the future trend in business education. The next 5-10 years will prove so. At last, everybody will stand for his/her school but nobody can deny that Ivey still commands in Canada. best regards
Ahhhh... the much vaunted Ivey alumni network. Yes, Rotman currently cannot match it. As for salaries, the differential in recent years has been about a CAD1,000 on average. Hardly a clear lead given the larger size and diversity of the Rotman class. Anyway, I just wanted to be clear on those points, no argument of any sort. I made my choice and am somewhat happy with it.
Diosaandina,
I'm impressed with your research and broad-based search for the right program. Regardless of who you choose, I am confident that you will find yourself among like-minded and highly intelligent people. This is exactly the kind of research that b-school applicants should undertake to find the program that fits best for them. I would encourage other people on this site to follow a similar path or identifying what is important to you and then ignoring magazine and website rankings in favor of finding what school is the best fit for you. Once you know what schools are best for you, you can introduce the noise of the rankings.
On a separate note, one of my section-mates in my MBA class at Ivey was Peruvian. She was a very smart and hard working girl and I am still in touch with her and her (now) husband (who was also in my section and a good friend). Feel free to message me on this board and I can put you in touch with her if you have specific questions that you think she may be helpful with.
As for the one-year versus two-year MBA, there are a lot of different views on the subject and again I think it comes down to a personal choice about opportunity cost versus program risks. I remain highly connected to Ivey and can tell you that my understanding is that Ivey has maintained 94% of classroom/learning time and has shortened the program from the two eight-month school years to a single twelve month year. They have increased the intensity (of an already intense program) and now allow for two intake months (I think it’s October and May). In addition to changing the duration of the program, they embarked on the new Cross-Enterprise Learning (“CELâ€) curriculum. The biggest complaint that I had in the old curriculum (and which I believe is endemic in b-schools generally) was that you could take a finance case and disagree with the strategy (or vice versa) and never get a chance to debate the other aspects of the case. I always thought there would be an opportunity to integrate classes and benefit from broader learning. This is why I am a bigger fan of Ivey grads now, than I was when I chose to do my MBA there!!
I disagree that Rotman is a “much stronger finance school.†I worked four years for Wall Street and two and a half years for Bay Street and I can tell you from a wealth of experience that Ivey grads dominate Rotman grads in all technical aspects. There isn’t any competition in my mind. I would put the top 10% of Ivey against the top 10% of any school in the world and expect Ivey to match or outperform. I believed that when I got my MBA and I believe it now. I will concede that Rotman is a powerhouse in Toronto but they are non-entities in the rest of Canada or on Wall Street. That is great if you subscribe to the concept that Toronto is the center of the universe but it sucks if you have aspirations outside of Toronto. Ivey has powerful alumni in Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary, Vancouver, the Atlantic Provinces, New York, Hong Kong, California, the U.K., and around the world. The Ivey network actually opens doors and allows an instant connection with these powerful alumni. More than once I have had meetings with CEOs or CFOs that went to Ivey and, after mentioning that I went to Ivey, watched the entire conversation become more friendly and receptive. It is a powerful tool in investment banking. Ivey’s alumni network is to Canada’s senior management what Harvard’s alumni is to U.S. senior management (and parallels can be drawn in each school’s global reach).
Finally, I will say that the fact that Ivey is the world’s second largest producer of case studies (second only to HBS) is a compelling reason to go to Ivey. Ivey has been doing case studies for about a century. The fact that Rotman is becoming more of a case study school and is undertaking a CEL-like curriculum change is evidence that what Ivey is doing is working extremely well. Despite Rotman becoming more case-based, there is something to be said for studying a case from the professor who wrote it. The benefit of sitting in a class and having the prof review the debate with the benefit of insight from the actual case participants is massive. I have had profs summarize classes by saying “and the CFO actually did consider x and y in their decision but chose not to do so for the following reasons.â€
Anyway, congratulations to Diosaandina for deciding what aspects are important TO YOU and then selecting schools based on that criterion. With a process like that, you can only come to a decision that works for you.
Thank you for your kind words. Your post confirms what Ive been reading about Ivey during the past 6+ months. No b-school can build a worldwide reputation in 5-10 years because it takes a number of graduates performing at the highest level to achieve that. On the other hand, it seems to be much easier and faster to erode a reputation based on gossip and biased statements. Ivey is - based on factual information and its well earned reputation - the best business school in Canada, period! but that does not mean Rotman, Schulich, Queens or others arent brilliant. They are all great schools, just not as good as Ivey (yet). However, competition can only result in increased quality which, at the end, will benefit all potential students, the Canadian business community and the Canadian educational system to mention a few. How do I envision Canadian MBAs in the future? I believe Ivey, Rotman and Schulich and, to a lesser extent, UBC Sauder (due to geographical considerations) and Queens will become more globally respected. Although national competition is healthy, all (Canadian) are benchmarking themselves with US and top European schools such as LBS, INSEAD, IMD and Oxbridge (their case is different given that they both have a 1000 and 800 years tradition). But Canadian MBA programs must discontinue making the permanent mistake of trying to look like US schools like HBS, Stanford and other highly regarded American programs. Just as Australian schools (Melbourne, AGSM) have focused their efforts in the Asia-Pacific market - so far with excellent results - Canadian MBAs should try to consolidate their presence in the Asian market (specially South and SE Asia) and Latin America!. More aggresive recruitment strategies should be implemented in these regions. Top 10 American b-schools have, without any doubts, the strongest brands worldwide. No competition will ever - at least in the near future - surpass their global brand recognition. The key is presenting unique programs that are able to deliver what they offer; quality, credibility and innovation alongside with placement and salary stats that catch potential students´ eyes. Business rankings, all of them, have methodological flaws. I am not saying they cannot measure tangible variables. However, if all b-schools try to hard - based on rankings - at the end we will have standardized MBA programs everywhere. Said this, my personal list has expanded from 4 to 6 MBA programs. I will also apply to Instituto de Empresa and Indian Business School. So, hopefully INSEAD, Ivey, Said, Judge, IE and/or ISB will offer me a place in their 2008 class. I apologize for such a disorganized email but hope that some ideas posted here will enrich the (useless) debate of which school is better. Yes, I am accepting that these debates are pointless! but they are also a lot of fun. Best regards.
PS. We, potential students, should assess MBAs in a very comprehensive manner. Rankings will provide us with a starting point (and, btw, there is a positive correlation between higher rankings and higehr job placement/salary stats). However, I will make my degree worth its real value through my professional performance and not the opposite way. To make it clearer with an example, Ivey will not make me reputed just by granting me a degree but I will make Ivey (and myself) more reputed with my work. did it make sense? hopefull it did. all take care
I only take issue with this statement (given that I can start naming Rotman professors such as Myron Gordon, Lawrence Booth, John Hull, Eric Kirzner... et al), but that only provides for future arguments...
My point: Do you think that Ivey grads can beat Chicago grads in finance technical skills?(???)
As for the rest, most it appears seems to be rooted in perspective and speculation. As I said in my second post, it all coalesces after working a bit; good luck to all in their MBA choice and post MBA career.
I have worked with Chicago grads and yes, I believe my technical skills are at least a match. You might think it arrogance, but my career speaks for itself. Any monkey can plug numbers into a formula but only a great banker can sort through all of the available information and give great financial advice. That's what Ivey provides and that is what other schools fail to emphasize. I also agree that Rotman has great profs. So does Ivey. I can read their published papers as well as you can. My theory is that a great academic does not make a great teacher. Ivey focuses its profs on teaching; their research supports the cases they write and teach. Cross-Enterprise Learning means they look at the big picture instead of having students focus on some obscure financial theory that very few will encounter much less become experts in. If you're going to get an MBA, choose one that will teach YOU to be great and don't hope that a great prof will rub off on you. Rotman is a great school - I just don't feel it is on the same level as Ivey.
Last post... promise.
I agree with diosaandina in that this B-School competition will finally place Canada (permenently) on the global B-School map and will only benefit Canadian business (and MBA grads, of course) as a whole.
Fair enough, that's why we went to different schools! Although I believe that you graduated a few years ago, correct? Rotman today and Rotman even 5 years ago are two totally different schools.
The different is what the much vaunted (and vilified to an extent) integrative thinking and organisation design curriculum is about. I.e. the big picture vs. a purely academic perspective, one that Rotman stopped subscribing to a long time ago. However, I am firmly of the belief --after talking to a number of HBS grads-- that pure case based learning doesn't accomplish much; we need lectures coupled with cases. I've had the opportunity to experience both thanks to a few ex-HBS strategy profs we have who had pure case based teaching styles vs. others who were hybrid.
Back to academics: in all of my second year finance, accounting and business economics electives, the only pure academic is John Hull and he is regarded as the leading authority on derivatives by financial practitioners. Secondly, as much as financial practitioners love to put down academics, they cannot deny that all applied finance concepts drip down from academia: as does the applicability of new concepts. APV vs. NPV being a prime example.
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier: I only have the highest of respect for Ivey and went to Rotman based on a personal decision that was based on my own opinion and assessment. I do not believe for a second that my school and all graduates from my school are the best ever; and I am firmly of the opinion that what you make of the MBA goes to far greater lengths than what a particular schools MBA makes of you.
It all comes down to personal preferences and experience. I believe the case method is best suited to more seasoned professionals while a stronger focus on academics fits best to younger individuals. At the end, be it Ivey or Rotman, you cant go wrong!
Ivey is where it is because of its alumni. Schulich is only 40 years old and is gaining ground. Give it a couple years and BB firms will be all over it.
Schulich needs to stop letting in bank tellers and maybe then it'll get some cred on bay st. Btw - our first years (at Rotman) are killing the Bay st. banking (and S&T and research) jobs this year... thanks to Ivey's 1 year program.
Btw - Rotman is at least 60+ % case based. I don't get how people still think of Rotman in the same light as 20 years ago.
I've heard lots of good comments about Queen's Commerce and I wanted to hear people from this forum.
Assuming that I DO NOT want to go to Ivey for their undergrad HBA program (because I want to do 4 years of business, not 2); how does Queen's compare for ibanking to other alternatives?
I've heard that many Canadian ibanks hire from Queen's for 2nd year summers, and that places like Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan etc hire even 3rd years (not only for Toronto, but also for New York). I know they have on campus recruiting - does anyone have any info about that?
^^^^This is an MBA thread. Search the forum, there is a bunch of threads, with all the banks that recruit from Ivey/Queens/McGil undergrads.
"because I want to do 4 years of business, not 2"
Are you serious? That is the silliest reason I have ever heard for one school over another. Getting a better education in two years at Ivey than Queens can deliver in 4 is well worth your time and effort. Frankly, having two years of liberal arts or sciences is of massive benefit to your development. Undergraduate studies are more about teaching you how to think than it is about what you learn and I personally think there is only limited benefit to an undergraduate business program over a liberal arts or science degree. I know I am in the minority, but frankly without business experience, business education is no better than learning about WWII or reading Shakespeare.
As for Queens having access to wall street and bay street, yes, they do have access. Unfortunately, they don't have the same depth of access. What this means is that on a relative basis, more of Ivey's class will go to each of wall street and bay street than will Queens. Consistently. If you are in the top one or two percent at Queens, that won't be a problem. If you aren't, then you likely will have more difficulting landing those jobs.
To be honest, I think Ivey is the only school that matters in Canada for an MBA.
I have to agree that Ivey rocks iBanking pretty hard.
Hi everyone,
I am an international student, and this makes it a total different story... For instance, I got admitted into Sauder, Schulich, Rotman and Ivey but tuition plays a key role regarding the amount of debt I will feel comfortable with by the end of my studies.
Take the case of Rotman 2008, they raised the tuition for international students to $87K this is crazy to me, they charge $26k more than canadians and PR (who are no less international lol). This tuition is higher than that of Berkeley and similar to many other US programs. Is really Rotman interested in international studetns? No doubt Rotman reputation, good facilities and "guru" dean are there.
Now Schulich, they only charge $13k more to international students ($60K total) but let's face it the campus is terrible, the surrounding areas are unsafe and the mba school has beautiful new digs but it just dropped from 18 to 49 in the latest FT rankings. I myself an MSc alumni from Uoft I do not imagine attending a school in suburban Toronto!!!
Ok Now is the case for Sauder, it is the only of the schools I have mentioned with the same tuition for nationals and internationals ($39K). The program legth is 15 months with intenrship included. What's your opinion about this program? I know that the facilities are ancient, however future classes will enjoy new digs in 2009. The reputation, I know is solid in Vancouver but how about Toronto? Specially for technology firms such as Nortel, Bell, Telus, Rogers, IBM, Telcordia, Accenture and the likes.
Finally Ivey, from an international perspective it is the best regarded biz School, at least to several employers in latin america. The 12 month length is appealing for someone like me, I already have a masters and not thinking to change career paths I am a heck of an engineer, only move into the mangament/strategic side of engineering, technology. Ivey tuition is $69K only $10K higher than international's.
So I guess, going to biz school is a business decision on its own, I would not like to live on a student budget after my studies :)
So here is would be my debt after spending my savings for attending each program considering living expenses (really moderate), books, fees, and tuition, internships not considered!
Rotman Debt $80K Schulich Debt: $54K Ivey Debt: 59K Sauder Debt: 30K
What is your opinion?
Thanks!
I can never respect Ivey as long as it is part of Western.
Why? Just curious.
Western has been stereotyped as a "party school" for decades.
It's a pretty self-perpetuating rep that is true as far as I know. At least 10-15 people that I know from Montreal are there right now, and they're all airheads and partiers, and they all say it's a big party school. It's no wonder they all got in; the admissions requirements are a joke: an 80% average from CEGEP passes muster.
I like your thought that you can't respect Ivey because you know a few people that attend other faculties that like to party. With such rigorous due diligence, I'm sure you will have a promising career as a mortgage broker.
Haha! I guess some people cannot comprehend the idea of work hard and play hard. You cannot condem a b-school let alone an entire university based on a few people. And the fact that the Ivey name shines beyond the 'party school' tag should speak volumes of the programs there. Last time I checked, Western was also a very well respected University despite it's party rep.
Clearly you guys ignored the fact that I said Western is a joke to get into; anyone with a pulse can pull an 80% average in CEGEP. I'm sure that admissions standards are even lower for Ontario residents. So I'm not condemning Western based on the few people I know -- I'm condemning it on the criteria under which all of the students were admitted. Shit, there are kids at Western that transferred out of my HS because they couldn't cut it.
There's nothing wrong with work hard, play hard, and I'm sure the kids at Ivey work very hard...probably because they have to because most weren't smart enough to get into Wharton, Michigan, Stern, etc...
And last I checked, honestly, Western is not nearly as respected as McGill, Queens, or UofT...and frankly, in Canada, those are the only schools that matter.
One of the most ignorant posts I've read in a while. I actually know of a couple of Ivey-bound students who decided to switch career paths and ended up at Ivy League schools. One went to Harvard, the other to Columbia.
Also, the subject of this thread is Ivey. Any Canadian business student with half a brain can draw a distinction between Ivey and Western, just as they can draw a distinction between Wharton and UPenn or Stern and NYU.
Coming from a current Canadian high school student that's going into Grade 12 in September, I will disagree with the point brisbane was trying to make in the second part of his post.
It is really ignorant to say that the people that go to Ivey weren't smart enough to get into schools in the States. For some of my friends that got accepted into Ivey, they had absolutely no intentions of even applying to schools like Wharton or Stern because they don't want to move or study in the States.
I agree that Western may not be as "respected" as McGill or U of T, but Western as a whole does have a higher average entering average than both Queen's and U of T, so the kids aren't dumb.
Also, your claim that Ivey students weren't smart enough to break into the Ivy league is purely speculation. Most Canadians dont even bother applying to the US because of distance, cost, or the application process (SATs etc)
Bingo.
Ivey yes, but the rest of Western is a piece of garbage.
I still think Brisbane's posts are moronic. Clearly he doesn't understand that the ~400 undergrads that get into Ivey every year are the absolute cream of the crop in Canada, have enviable GPAs at worst and generally have incredible ECs. Comparing the general admissions standards of a 30,000 student university with Canada's premier faculty is just stupid. Comparing Ivey MBAs to this is even more moronic. With such shoddy analysis, Brisbane is clearly not an ibanker.
Comparing how "respected" Western is versus UofT, McGill or Queens is fine, but not applicable to this board. Macleans magazine features this in one of their issues every year and you should probably find a chat site that cares who's sociology program spends the most time with students. For this board, we only care about the finance industries and for that a discussion about Ivey is the only one that matters.
I would like Brisbane to post his/her background so we can get a feel for the source of this moronic posting.
Yes I must agree with Nayls. Although I'm not an Ibanker, I've been researching MBA programs for a few years now (I'm graduating undergrad in Finance/Accounting this year but I've always been motivated to get into Ibanking so I've started researching MBA programs early :P), and while I agree that McGill, Queens and Rotman have solids programs, alot of the jobs on Bay street are taken by Ivey graduates. Whether it is a party school or not, they are the ones getting the jobs. Furthermore, their alumni is top notch (not to say rotman, queens aren't) but part of the MBA "tuition" is to "buy" the connections. Its sad but partly true.
Does anyone know how many Ivey, Queens, Rotman, Schulich and Mcgill MBA grads are recruited by NY Ibanks and not just Canadian Ibanks>?
Yokonomo: Since you are a firm believer that Ivey is the best, shouldn't you know how the recruitment is there and at the other "not-as-good-as-Ivey" schools?
I think Yokonomo was refering to Bay Street jobs by saying Ivey gets the most spots and was asking about Wall Street jobs. I don't really have relative placement stats, but I can say qualitatively that Ivey does put more people onto Wall Street than the other schools. I was in NYC two weeks ago (I'm at a Wall Street firm) and was surprised how many classmates were on Wall Street and how many were in NYC. There is definitely a vibrant community of Ivey alumni that work for Wall Street firms. I can't compare numbers with Rotman or Queens, but I can say that to my knowledge they are not connected into an alumni group and have to cohesiveness (or at least that is what I heard from buddies in NYC).
Yes, i was talking about wall street jobs.
And I dont get how since I believe in Ivey that I will automatically know the recruitments of other "not-so-good" schools?
My roommate landed Lazard from McGill and I can tell you they get Goldman, JP, Lazard, CSFB, MS and UBS too. I'm at JMSB and we only get the Canadian banks and just recently started to get UBS and CSFB, but they're sales and trading positions usually.
Nayls and any other Calgarians, I would love some input about a personal topic:
IVEY vs. Haskayne???
I live in Calgary and am doing an MBA FT 2008 (Fall). Ivey or Haskayne is the question. I'm really stuck on what school to attend. I don't care about international and/or national reputations. What I want to know is what's Haskayne's reputation in Calgary/Alberta? I'm talking all industries....IBanking, Consutlting, etc. [I know Ivey kills beyond AB's borders.]
I'm interested in remaining in Calgary after my MBA so I'm of the general opinion that Haskayne might be the easiest and possibly the best solution for me. Do BB firms and even consulting firms (what little there are in Calgary) give as much street cred to a Haskayne MBA grad as they do an IVEY MBA grad? Is it more? Is it less? Do you hire exceptional Haskayne grads?...would you?...etc.
Those in the local industry...please provide some insight.
Your thoughts and relevant input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Haskayne has a very good reputation in Calgary at the undergraduate level but it is nowhere at the MBA level. Prior to this last year, Haskayne put almost all of its CPMT students into ibanking roles in Calgary and elsewhere. The CPMT students were incredible and extremely sought after, many with multiple offers from bank-owned and even BB banks.
Sadly, UofC decided to mess with success. They included MBA students in the CPMT and significantly increased the size of the program. Neither of these were even the worst; they decided to "balance" the program and include a better cross-representation of the school. Basically, top grades and rigorous screening was no longer and the quality of the students and the program deteriorated. I think they still enjoy some recruiting premium over the rest of the school and are better prepared than the rest of the students, but the program is no longer a premium screening tool. As such, we basically don't recruit there (yes, we still post, but don't give interviews and it would take a truly compelling candidate for us to hire). This is in direct opposition to Ivey, where we do recruit and hire from.
I had to think a bit longer on this topic, but I don't think I know anybody that is a UofC MBA grad that works in investment banking. I know several that did UofC undergrad then went to Ivey, but I don't know of any that finished the UofC MBA program. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but I havne't come across any in my four years in Calgary (and I know A LOT of bankers). And no, Haskayne MBA does not have "street cred".
Now, insofar as Ivey MBAs go, I spend a lot of time working with current students to bring them out to Calgary and introduce them to our high-level alumni in Calgary. We have more than 700 alumni in Calgary and have initiated a program that provides access to Calgary's top MBA employers. Of the 700 alumni in Calgary, dozens are in senior management roles and the number of CEO/CFO/COO/Chairman roles that Ivey grads hold in this town is staggering. We meet with the likes of Suncor, Petro-Canada, all of the banks and all of the consulting shops. Specifically, McKinsey Calgary is staffed with Ivey MBAs, Deloitte has tons of Ivey MBAs, Accenture has tons of Ivey MBAs, Imperial hires 4-5 MBAs a year for Calgary, and the investment banks hire Ivey MBAs, almost exclusively. I mentor 4-5 western-Canadian MBA students on getting jobs in Calgary and I actually make phone calls on their behalf to competitors to get them interviews and to meet with the decision makers. Go to Ivey, they will let you know who I am (say you want to find a mentor in investment banking in Calgary and I guarantee they give my name) and I will put you into a top job somewhere in Calgary.
I hope that helps.
Nayls, I hope Ivey pays you a cut! (kidding) Whether anyone is willing to admit it or not, the biggest difference between one MBA program and the other is not the course content. It's people like you. You're the "well-connected NETWORK" that makes Ivey really stand out. I'm not quite sure as to why you do it...but, regardless, kudos to you for giving back.
With that said, I have first-hand knowledge of where Haskayne MBA grads have been recently placed and, you know what, they're not all that shabby. In finance, I agree, they don't touch Ivey....and never will, but for consulting, operations, etc. IN CALGARY, they seem competitive. They've even got jobs in T.O too. I won't pretend to know much about the salaries or the actual positions...but once you're there, I wonder if it matter much.
Anyways, do you think Ivey grads are getting any sort of premium for coming out to Calgary rather than sticking in T.O or NY or wherever? I'm not just talking monetary...do you find opportunities for advancement and future salary potential to be better in CGY as compared to other markets? Otherwise, I can can't figure out why an Ivey guy/gal would come out west. It isn't for the skiing!
I'd appreciate your views on that.
Thanks.
Also, what the h-e-double hockey sticks happened with the Canadian MBA programs in the 2008 FT rankings? We CDNs got killed! I would've thought our earnings numbers would've gone up (since $CDN/USD) thus taking CDN MBAs up....but quite the opposite.
Since this thread focused on debating the merits of Canadian business schools I thought this would be a good place to post my questions.
I was recently offered admission to both Rotman and Ivey and am having difficulty deciding which offer to accept. Post MBA I want to land a job in IB and stay in Toronto and have no previous background in finance (my undergrad was in engineering).
1.I am wondering whether the possibility of completing a summer internship in IB at Rotman or Ivey's extensive Bay street network would be more helpful in landing an full time IB position post MBA. 2.What are my chances of making a career switch at Ivey given the lack of a summer internship.
Any advice would be appreciated.
As an engineer looking for a similar transition, I also have an interest in the answers to your questions. On the surface, I don't think one can deny that a mid-program summer internship is a nice plus for those trying to get into a new industry. I know Ivey does have a PRE-program internship program set up with two consultants.....Boston Consulting and somebody else....can't remember if it's banking. I also know that both companies have yet to take an Ivey student into this program....but then again, the program just got released last year I think.....probably still experimental....who knows.
Chances....? I have no idea. I'd love to hear some more imput on the issue.
Either way, good luck with your decision. I personally don't think you can go wrong with either program if your intent is to stay and work in T.O afterwards.
p.s. Nice reference to Fresh Prince.
As an engineer looking for a similar transition, I also have an interest in the answers to your questions. On the surface, I don't think one can deny that a mid-program summer internship is a nice plus for those trying to get into a new industry. I know Ivey does have a PRE-program internship program set up with two consultants.....Boston Consulting and somebody else....can't remember if it's banking. I also know that both companies have yet to take an Ivey student into this program....but then again, the program just got released last year I think.....probably still experimental....who knows.
Chances....? I have no idea. I'd love to hear some more imput on the issue.
Either way, good luck with your decision. I personally don't think you can go wrong with either program if your intent is to stay and work in T.O afterwards.
p.s. Nice reference to Fresh Prince.
Nayls - since you have experience with MBA recruitment at Ivey, can you tell me how you view students with no previous finance background that are trying to break into the Canadian ibanking scene? Do they have a decent shot at landing a FT offer when compared to students with a finance background? Do they need to demonstrate a little something extra (i.e. higher GPA, better ECs)?
Would you recommend a 2yr MBA program for someone hoping to transition into the ibanking?
Thanks.
First, I should disclose that I went to Ivey before the one-year MBA program. I don't have firsthand experience in the new world.
Getting the summer at a bank can be really great for a "toe in the water" experience for both sides. It is great for transitions. It is even better now at Rotman given Ivey does not have summer interns to put in the pool. The pool of potential summer spots for Rotman got immensely larger as Ivey used to dominate the space and now doesn't compete.
I still say the Ivey MBA has more cache and would have more power in full-time placement notwithstanding no summer position. To answer your question on changing career, it happens all the time and is often the reason for an MBA. It still happens at Ivey, although I would say the program is perfect for those that know what they want from the outset and are not debating consulting or banking (which is what most people use the summer for).
My money is still on Ivey, but I can completely understand the "I want a summer job" concept if you are not sure about the industry. If you are sure you want banking, I would still say Ivey has the edge.
I hope that helps
I haven't read this entire thread, but let me describe my experience with the job search in Toronto for IB.
Ivey, Queens, and McGill dominate the analyst positions. All 6 banks recruit from these three schools (search online and you will even see company presentations posted online along with job ads... use Google's "cache" tool to view password protected pages).
I saw some a comment here denigrating Ivey because of its affiliation with Western. I studied at Waterloo - when I enrolled it was the #1 undergrad university in Canada. Many people at Waterloo like to laugh at kids from Western or other commerce programs. However, come recruiting time, kids from those schools kick butt. The jobs that we kill ourselves trying to get aren't even posted in our job system. Be careful with that kind of arrogance - I personally regret not switching over to Ivey in 2nd year, had I done that my job search wouldn't be as painful or as long.
With respect to MBA school, I can't say much. But I can tell you that a substantial amount of the associates, VPs, and MDs that I have come across are from Ivey. Do an online search and read the online bios. Ivey has a great alumni base that's for sure.
Again I don't know much but I think whats most important is your experience prior to the MBA.
I know McKinsey has a relatively small office in Calgary, but what about Deloitte and Accenture and others? Do Ivey grads actually get placed in these companies on an annual/cohort basis, or are we talking one-offs? The mngmnt consulting (MC) offices that I know in Calgary seem so small.
Also, are most of the clients for these firms based in in Calgary? I know people in other hubs (say Toronto) that travel 80% of the time. Does MC require as much travel when based out of Calgary?
What kind of salaries (with P.Eng, MBA and 5+yrs experience) can one expect to start at in Calgary vs. Toronto, let's say. I'm still unsure if we're talking pay incentives or less pay.
Nayls or others, any insight on these topics would be greatly appreciated.
I don't know ANY consultants in Calgary...no references for me.
I can confirm Nayls's post. Deloitte Consulting seemed like a pretty big draw for Ivey graduates. I know of at least one person who graduated in my class at Ivey and now works for Deloitte in Calgary. I believe Deloitte also took a few Ivey grads for Toronto, one for Philadelphia, and another one for an Asian office (don't remember which one).
Ivey also does well overall with McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Accenture, AT Kearney, Secor, etc. but I don't have any Calgary numbers for you. Most end up in Toronto.
Firstly, I should say that I am a banker, not a consultant, but good number of my classmates who came to Calgary are in consulting, so I made a phone call to be helpful.
There are about 50 consultants at Accenture in Calgary, about 60 at Deloitte, 5-8 at McKinsey and 10-20 at IBM (I made a phone call, not many - could get more specific numbers but these are directionally right).
Most of the consultants in Calgary focus on oil and gas and therefore travel where ever their clients are (i.e., Houston, Newfoundland etc). There is also some technology consulting and HR consulting, with some of those employee numbers in these groups (they tend to be relatively small). I think Bearing Point also has an office here with 20-30 people focused on technology.
I know McK, Accenture, IBM and Deloitte actively and annually recruit HBAs and MBAs from Ivey. The quote from a Deloitte guy was "all the senior managers are Ivey, therefore it is the most logical place to go if you want a job here". I don't have great insight into the consulting world, but certainly Ivey not only places well in Calgary consulting, but the grads are also successful.
I don't have compensation numbers (nor did I ask), but I did find out that the pay in Calgary is directly comparable to Toronto for the same level.
I hope this helps.
Nayls, Kcanuck, thanks for the info and Nayls, thanks for going out of your way to get it too. Some of those office sizes are sig. larger than I thought they'd be. It's good to here MC is alive, well, and probably growing out here. Still, with all the head offices out here, I'm surprised that I don't hear more about it. Same with banking actually...I know it's there too. I guess everything is pretty low-key here in CGY....if it isn't O&G, that is.
Hey,
I am just wondering if anyone knows how big the Analyst classes are in Calgary and how competitive it is? Is it more competitive than TO?
I am interning on a Trading desk out here, and would like to do "Oil and Gas" banking. I spoke with one trader trainee at BP from UofA who said 9/10 of the top students in his class went into banking. I would guess that the UofC CPMT program has similar stats.
So do the banks out here recruit from any other schools? Btw no I do not goto Queen's/Ivey.
Are all the good "Oil and Gas" banking groups in Calgary as well? Is there any in Toronto or elsewhere?
First of all, thanks a lot for all the insight - its been helpful. I'm presently graduating grade 12, and have been accepted to the Ivey AEO status to the HBA, the U of T B.Comm program (Trinity College), and the Queens B.Comm program. As far as entrance requirements go, Ivey is first, with a cut-off around 91 I think, Queens is second with aprx. an 87, followed by U of T in the low to mid 80's.
Which of these undergraduate programs do you think is best? I have read that the HBA overlaps a lot of what is seen in the MBA, so I am hesitant to go to Ivey as I will eventually complete an MBA. Also, it goes without mentioning that having something outside of "business" is extremely helpful to become a well-rounded and apt member of any Bay/Wall st. firm.
Also, eventually wanting a CFA, could a B.Comm with a finance specialty be more helpful? Could I even specialize in finance in the HBA / are there many electives? I realize this is predominantly about which of these has the best MBA, but which do you think has the best undergrad/which would be most beneficial. Any insights and opinions would be hugely appreciated. Thanks a million.
Hey BCS,
I'm in the same boat as you are and have been offered Queen's Commerce, Ivey AEO, UofT Commerce, Schulich, and WLU/UW DD.
I already accepted the offer to Ivey AEO, and am going to be at UWO next year.
I know for sure that you'd be able to take electives in finance, or anything else, at Ivey, and the same goes for most likely any other business program in the world. Here's the link showing what you can take electives in:
http://www.ivey.uwo.ca/hba/hba-ivey-year2.html
Thanks for the link.
Well, I've ruled out U of T, and Ivey & Queens find themselves neck to neck...
Queens commerce, opposite to Ivey, is a direct entry program. How did you "rule out" Queens, when making your choice? It seems to me that spending 2 years at Western isn't all too great, though I have no doubt I'd love Ivey - once there. I'm not worried about maintaining an 80, but 2 years is still a while.
Specifically, do you know how the Queens B.Comm compares to Ivey in terms of the reputation among employers and graduate schools like Stern and Wharton? To that, let me add that it is entirely unlike me to doubt a decision - everything usually seems so obvious. I guess this is different.
Thanks in advance.
It was a pretty hard choice choosing between Queen's and Ivey.
From some of the information that I picked up on this forum, Ivey is the best program in Canada for investment banking, and I don't think anyone on here can doubt it. That definitely swayed my decision to ultimately choosing Ivey, along with a lot of other reasons.
I visited both Queen's and Western, and they're both great campuses in my opinion, but ultimately, I'd have to say I could definitely see myself at Western for 4 years more than any other school.
I wouldn't know how to answer the last question because I don't know anything about reputation among employers since we're both still in high school (it'd be great if someone on here could answer that).
Good luck with your choices bud.
A couple of quick comments;
On choosing an undergrad bschool; - The HBA program does overlap with the MBA program in terms of content, but then so does every other undergraduate program; there are topics that need to be covered and it makes sense to teach the same thing to undergraduate and graduate students - it is foolish to think that if you do an HBA you would not benefit from an MBA; the biggest difference between HBA and MBA is the real-world experience and it makes a huge difference - Agreed that something outside of "business" makes you better rounded and has appeal on Wall Street / Bay Street. That is the point of two years of general study before the HBA program and why the program attracts superior students - The CFA is about rote memorization and specialization courses will likely only have a marginal impact - I don't really understand the comment about two years at Western not being that great... not sure what is meant there. If you mean lifestyle and being in a fun town, Western has Queens beat 100x over. You should visit both campuses. If you mean the quality of education, 1) it won't matter as you will ultimately get the Ivey degree and 2) I think you will find that any difference between general arts or science programs are actually quite small between the major universities. - The difference in reputation between Ivey and Queens at the employer level is very large for investment banking. Not quite as sure for other industries, but presumably on this website it is the only industry that matters. - I know Ivey HBA puts more people into HBS than any other Canadian school, so I can guess that it has a pretty good reputation. Not sure how Stern made your list of good graduate schools. - I can understand how this decision can be a tough one; especially if you don't have direct access to industry professionals to ask where the best place to go would be. I really don't think there is much doubt in my mind which is the superior program (Ivey), but you have to make the decision yourself.
I hope this helps.
Weak.
I have a tonne of friends who have done well out of Queens/UofT and Ivey. I'm a U of T grad and I will say, straight up, I don't think their u/g program is as highly regarded in general as that of Queens/Ivey. Additionally, I think their careers office is a joke in comparison.
Also, as many U of T students will tell you, the campus vibe pretty much blows. It's a massive city, and there's tonnes to see and do, but it's Toronto. If that appeals to you, then it's a big plus. Otherwise, Kingston/Western have a much more well-knit student body. You'll find a tonne more friends there and enjoy yourself 10 times more at half the living costs. You guys sound pretty serious for a bunch of highschool kids, but be aware, regardless of where you go, there's a multitude of out-of-class experiences ahead of you. Don't forget to have some fun.
You guys talking about IB is kind of scary actually. As a side note, I will also say I think the Laurier program is very underrated. Every B.Comm I've known outta there is killing it somewhere....and it's not just a fluke. Best of luck with your decisions, and don't let these message boards influence you too much. Go with what feels right and you won't go wrong.
Two quick points:
"Ivey dominates ibanking in Calgary" -- That's kind of like being the best bobsled team in Jamaica.
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=453060 -- Scroll all the way to the bottom to see Ivey. It looks like the technical skills failed to deliver against the likes of Ryerson, Laval, and Saint Mary's. I wonder what would have happened against Harvard? Wharton?
Ivey is a good school and it does have the biggest banking network in Canada, but balanced opinions are always nice and someone needs to bring those egos of yours in line reality.
Art,
1) the question was posed about Calgary banking - so the question was answered about Calgary banking.
2) Using these competetions as a metric for how good the school is, is blatently misleading. I would argue that a 10 week competetion in this manner has a lot to do with luck. Along with that, if you actually read the article ALL of the schools actually lost money in the competition. If I entered and held nothing but a full cash position - guess what? I outperform all schools in this competition. Of course according to your argument, that necessarily means I have superior technical skills than everyone else. The results of the 2008 Philadelphia ACG Case competition should further illustrate my point.
Schools entered: Drexel University's LeBow College of Business La Salle University School of Business Penn State University's Smeal College of Business Saint Joseph's University Haub School of Business Temple University's Fox School of Business University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School Villanova School of Business
(One school, should really jump out at you in the above list)
Winner: Villanova School of Business
So, according to your second point - this of course means that the best business education (at least as far as cases are concerned) is Villanova? Sorry homeboy, in all of these situations it has a lot to do with the students who entered, the amount of weighting the faculty puts on the competitions (through more prep and help to the team), and a good stroke of luck.
What was the point of that post... Great, Ivey did not perform in some portfolio challenge, that may or may not have been relevant as it could've been some avg students who represented. While people in the field had no interest. I had my investments class during that time, I'm at Schulich, highest return was 32.3%, our return was 18%, during 10 weeks. Does that mean anything about the school itself...of course not!
Ivey is a great school, career services is where it is a head and shoulders above the rest. If you were to ask what is second, it does depend on career choices and location. These FT rankings or Forbes or anything else are irrelevant, as they rank things that really don't matter. It's like the league tables, if you play with it enough, there is a way to be #1. For IB, Queen's is after Ivey, McGill (Undergrad) is next, then you get the likes of U of T, Sauder, Schulich who place 10 - 15 students.
To say Ivey dominates Calgary IB is an overstatement and is a bit misleading. Ivey's placing like 2 or 3 people in Calgary every cohort. Banking in Calgary is small, but it ain't that small. Though I can't directly attest to the quality of jobs those 5 or 6 Ivey grads are getting every year, they can't be head and shoulders above people from Sauder, U of T, etc. getting opportunities out here.
I will say that Ivey does appear to be overweight (compared to out of province schools) in the number of senior positions in Calgary, but is that a function of the quality of the school, the quality the Ivey network, or more a function of how much ass each of those senior people busted in Toronto before being transferred out to Calgary in a senior role?
All three is my guess.
As for the investment and case study comps, yes, they are an indicator of who's better.....but only the people on that team, not everyone in their programs. Preparedness means you're better if you ask me. I'd also suggest that luck something to do with it, but not that much, especially in the case comps. Anyways, picking a school based on historical performance in copetitions is down right nutty.
Go Villanova!
Sorry to dig up an old thread but it seems like a relevant place to start . . .
I have been looking into the Queens MBA in comparison to Ivey. Queens has completely fallen off almost all of the rankings other than the Business Week, which was last published in 2008, and its salary statistics in the placement report (which are not very detailed at all compared to other schools) arent very impressive. Does anyone know how the Queens MBA stacks up in ibanking, I know the undergrad is very well regarded?
Sorry to dig up an old thread but it seems like a relevant place to start . . .
I have been looking into the Queens MBA in comparison to Ivey. Queens has completely fallen off almost all of the rankings other than the Business Week, which was last published in 2008, and its salary statistics in the placement report (which are not very detailed at all compared to other schools) arent very impressive. Does anyone know how the Queens MBA stacks up in ibanking, I know the undergrad is very well regarded?
Queen's b-school opted out of a few rankings.
Thanks, that explains some of the ranking questions I had.
Is it fair to say that the Queens MBA program isnt as succesful at IB or S&T placements as their undergrad?
If I do not get into Ivey and assuming that I get into the other schools I am not sure if I should start my MBA in May at Queens and finish it in a year, or wait to go to Rotman or Schulich in September and finish it in closer to 2 years. I already have 6 years experience (non IB, mostly in S&T and commercial banking) thus I am not too concerned about completing an internship, mostly looking at a school for the placement and alumni.
Any thoughts?
****A current Queen's Commerce student here****
No problem.
Having talked to people at queen's doing their masters including a guy from Bocconi (exchange program), they all seem to love it here.
The class sizes look awesome, our commerce classes are usually ~50 students but the MBA classrooms are closer to 20-30.
The one ranking in which Queen's participates in - businessweek - has had it as the #1 business school outside of the US for the last 3 years. That's including some Ivey, Rotman and even LBS/ESADE, etc.
Queen's Alumni seem to be pretty top notch - however, where Ivey is superior is sheer numbers - there's a lot more students --> there's a lot more alumni. I'm not saying that Queen's Alumni or Ivey Alumni are better - I'm just saying there's a lot more from Ivey.
I don't know enough about the MBA program to comment on its placement statistics or anything of that sort. I suppose you could try a LinkedIn search to see how well the schools place their students into IB.
Thanks for the tip, a recruitment contact at Queens did get back to me and put me in touch with a recent grad who placed in IB to follow up with directly.
I can`t believe this thread is still live!!!
I still say Ivey, but I have to say that the new 12 month MBA program is not good for changing careers (i.e., if you came out of banking, it is very easy to get back into banking) due to the lack of a summer period.
And I very strongly disagree that the Ivey alumni advantage is sheer numbers alone. That is silly. I took a schulich grad to an alumni event and his response was that he has alumni envy. As an alumni, I actively help connect grads with folks in my rolodex and I regularly connect those I can`t help with other grads.
And forget rankings. Most Canadian schools have dropped out and cherry-pick those who`s criteria fits best with their program.
In your opinion then Nayls, if someone didnt get into Ivey or it wasnt a good fit for some reason what would be the next best program to place in IB or S&T
Anyone have an opinion on Queens MFin program? How competitive is the admissions process and how does it place into IB?
If you didn't get into Ivey, I would say apply again next year. Practically though I know that is not always an option. Queens and Rotman both have passable MBA programs but don't expect much from being an alumni. Shulich is also on the radar.
It seems like there's a group of b-schools that are prestigious with no clear distinction between the best/worst:
(just look at any ranking) Some might rely a bit on the past (Ivey, McGill), some have risen a lot (HEC Montreal, I heard Hayskayne or wtv it's called in Alberta too). McGill-Desautels, HEC Montreal, Schulich, Rotman are perhaps the most international...
I'm looking to have a crack at the entry level finance positions in Canada (preferrably geared towards an Investment Mgmt career track).
I had a look at the Ivey MSc Management Curriculum and it seems to have no modules on Finance, Accounting, Marketing, etc, what you expect on a standard business programme. It seems to be more of just International Business/Management (stuff like Cross cultural Management).
I'm not really looking for a well rounded curriculum as such (I treat this as more of an entry barrier). I'll probably have all 3 levels of the CFA cleared by the time I join Ivey's next MSc cohort (if I do, that is), but my concern was whether the curriculum would be an issue with recruiters. Ivey HBA seems to be the best business UG in Canada, and my question is whether I'd be considered an equally deserving candidate for the finance positions which HBAs usually get recruited to.
I'm banking on 1) The Brand 2) The Alumni Network 3) On Campus Recruiting opportunities.
What do you think? Is my skepticism about the curriculum warranted, or should I expect the Ivey network, brand & OCR to render it trivial?
Looks like quite a bit has changed since this discussion was first brought up.
Can anyone shed some more light on how Rotman/Ivey/Schulich now compare against one another, especially in IB and consulting?
Im assuming your talking about undergrad here. Nothing has changed, in terms of IB right out of UNDERGRAD, you should only consider Ivey in your case.
No I'm talking about MBA only, not undergrad.
Wall Street Job with an MBA from Canada? (Originally Posted: 04/20/2014)
Hello everybody!
So I'm a Canadian highschool student who is going to be applying to universities this summer. I can easily get into the top business schools in Canada, like Queen's, Western or UofT, but I'll still try to apply to some American Ivy League schools. However, getting into Penn or Columbia would be a best case scenario and I'm expecting to be stuck in Canada for a while.
My long term goal is to make it to Manhattan, and from what I understand it is easy to score a job on Wall Street if you have an MBA. My question is, does that include an MBA from a Canadian university? If the Ivy Leagues don't work out (and they probably won't) then I'll attend a business school up here, try to score some internships or co-ops and then get the 2 years of experience done for the MBA. After that certification, is there any plausible way of me getting an job on Wall Street at a respected firm?
Thanks for the advice!
You don't have to only apply to Columbia and penn. There are plenty of schools which are as good as or better than the Ivy League ones (Stanford, UChicago etc) that have great placement on Wall Street. Shoot for some of those
Also, get more than 2 years of experience before doing an MBA. It'll make your MBA experience much better.
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, as an international, most schools in the US will not offer me any financial aid. Turns out that going to Harvard or Penn is actually significantly cheaper for me than a respectable state school.
Regarding the experience for an MBA, what do you mean by that? As in will it just be easier for me to get into an MBA program with more than the mandatory experience? Or will it actually make the certification work easier?
I don't follow your point that schools other than ivy ones wont give you money. Why? Stanford and UofC definitely offer fin aid to people, including international students. I'm saying that you should broaden your search outside of just ivy league universities because the odds aren't in your favor that you'll get admitted (good luck though).
Regarding the MBA, I go to a top 5 school and I don't know anyone that has only 2 years experience (avg is like 4 or 5). After only 2 years you just don't have the same working skillset or experiences that other people have and you'll be at a disadvantage. Also, it'll be much harder to get admitted to a top program with only 2 years.
MBA in Canada - which is best? (Originally Posted: 12/26/2014)
The MBA may have originated in the United States, but its value and influence in the business world have long stretched north of the border into Canada. The degree has been around in Canada since 1948, when the University of Western Ontario added the MBA to its list of programs. Since that time, several other Canadian universities have followed suit. Today, the MBA degree is considered by many to be a rite of passage into a broad range of professional opportunities.
If you are considering pursuing an MBA in Canada, then you should know that there are essentially seven MBA programs worth your consideration. If the US has the MBA business schools ">M7, then here is Canada’s C7 (in no particular order):
-Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto -Schulich School of Business, York University -Desautels Faculty of Management, McGill University -Sauder School of Business, University of British Columbia -Queen’s School of Business, Queen’s University -Ivey Business School, University of Western Ontario -HEC Montréal, Université de Montréal
These schools are widely accepted as Canada’s most prestigious MBA degrees. Deciding which of these schools is the best fit for you should be a simple process, assuming you have the necessary credentials to seek admission. In order to decide what school should be at the top of your list, consider the following three questions:
What industry do you want to work in?
If you don’t know exactly, that’s okay, but you should at least have an idea of what fields interest you. Ask yourself why you’re considering an MBA in the first place. What are you lacking professionally today that you want for tomorrow? Deciding what you want to do isn’t a be all and end all; your plan may change along the way. However you do need a starting point, so think about it.
Now that you’ve thought about it, make a decision. Do you want to work in the capital markets as an investment banker or trader? Do you want to become a management consultant? Maybe logistics or operations tickle your fancy. Are you looking for a role in sales, marketing or advertisement? Perhaps you want to work in IT. Maybe you want to work for an international organization such as the UN. It’s up to you. The fact is the MBA will open up a world of possibilities. By the time you graduate you’ll be considered a generalist, and as such your skills should be applicable to a variety of functions and industries.
The reason why you need some degree of professional direction is because every school has its strengths and weaknesses. Each school will serve you differently during your eventual job search. Some will have closely knit alumni or industry contacts in your field of interest. Some are geographically located close to the positions you want. All of these factors are important elements you’ll want to leverage. In order to determine what school suits your profile, read the annual rankings, go to the schools and talk to the staff in the career services department, reach out to alumni on social media platforms. A large part of your future may be shaped by the school you decide to attend, so get the information you need.
What city do you want to work/live in?
This question will have varying levels of importance depending on your personality and life circumstances. The job you seek to land may be much more important to you than the location, or vice versa. If location is important, then you need to decide which city is best for you. Where do you currently live? Where do you want to live? Do you speak French? Where do you want your kids to grow up? What city will offer you the greatest room for career advancement? These are all important and necessary questions that you need to ask yourself. Once you determine this, you’ll have narrowed the field considerably. Good.
Are you a career switcher?
Three of the C7 business schools come in one-year formats. The other four come in two-year formats. Ideally, you want to attend a two-year institution if you’re a career switcher. If you plan on staying in the same industry with a similar function, the one-year program would be best – your goal then should be to get back into the workforce as soon as possible.
The reason why a career-switcher requires a two-year program is because of the internship. Going from one career pre-MBA to another post-MBA is a big deal. You’re only going to get one shot at it, so do it right. The summer internship allows you to test the answer to your first question above. It gives you a “four-month-in-the-life” experience that is invaluable. After you’re done the internship and start your second year of business school, you’ll know more about your likes and dislikes at Company ABC. You’ll have the chance to readjust your sites to a different company, position or industry if need be. You’ll also be able to use the knowledge gained during the internship in future job interviews. This will help your confidence and your level of preparedness for that ideal job when graduation rolls around.
There you have it; that’s how easy it is to decide on a Canadian MBA. Canada may be a small country population wise, but it has some fantastic business schools rated among the best in the world. It’s up to you to decide which of these schools is going to help you line up the career of your dreams. So reflect on your aspirations, think about the three questions, and apply wisely.
*Note: I originally posted this article on my website 18 months ago but wanted to share with WSO.
Pretty sure that HEC is not a good school...
I can't say you're wrong, however, I've seen the program place well on quite a few global MBA rankings. HEC Montréal is well respected and Université de Montréal is often regarded as the best francophone university for French Canadians in Canada.
Best Graduate Programs for Prop Trading in Canada (Originally Posted: 09/11/2012)
Was wondering if anyone had any insight on whats the best Graduate Programs for Prop Trading in Canada...
I know waterloo has a Masters in Quantitative Finance - Anyone here have any stories regarding that program?
i assume you are talking about canadian shops, of which i can't help you. i recommend finding the best shops and look at linkedin.
Double Degree at Waterloo. Financial Math at Waterloo. Pure Math at Watelroo. Combinatronics/CS at Waterloo.
You see the trend yet? In all actuality DRW style shops only recruit at Uwaterloo.
Not sure about the programs but I had a few friends who did prop trading at TD and they all left. I believe there was over 5 groups that did prop trading but my friend wasn't exactly sure since he never spoke or met them. From what I can tell when I speak to others I believe they are pretty much shut down since about 2008(or operating as a ghost department compared to its past).
The banks may not be the best route, instead you may want to target smaller trading firms(sorry I don't know of any). Another option is to target hedge or mutual funds with high asset turnover since they use some of the same skillsets(all my TD ex-prop friends manage mutual or hedge funds now).
Might be something to think about. good luck
Appreciate this
user, I totally agree. Those guys are awesome. Its weird, I rarely run into them at places at bymark or ki..I generally see them in jeans and dressed down having beers/pizza on college street. Very solid guys and no bay street egos.
Wallstreetballa, if it helps most of the guys I know do not have grad degrees. most of them that I know just have normal undergrad degrees(business/politics/history,etc..), CFA's and alot of specific experience(like resource specialists,etc..).
I am still trying to break in but I think your best bet since prop trading seems to be dead in Canada is to try to work at a smaller shop. I used to work at a large mutual fund and the former had very high turnover in their funds(300-600%/year as opposed to most fund managers with less than 100%).
Two things that stuck out to me was that their returns(although overall positive) were volatile and they complained to me about managing more and more money. I think ideally guys like this would be at a smaller shop(around 250 Million aum). You may want to look into firms of that nature and you may get to work with them(its not likely they are working as they were in their old capacity at RBC or TD or any of those firms anymore).
Canada B-Schools much better than US ones (Originally Posted: 05/08/2012)
I just realized that other than 2-3 B-schools in the US, Canadian B-schools are much better on almost on every level.
Did you know for example that, LSE have different GPA requirements depending on the countries you're applying from? And as you guessed it, they require a higher GPA from US candidates than from Canada ones.
Other example, HEC Montreal:
''- In an employability ranking by Emerging, published in the New York Times in 2011, chairmen and executives form 10 countries were asked which universities they would recruit from. HEC Montréal obtained a 46th position worldwide, and 2nd in Canada, ahead of notable Canadian schools such as University of Toronto (Rotman), York (Schulich), Western Ontario (Ivey), UBC (Sauder) and Queens, and ahead of other notable international schools such as ESCP-Europe (France), Boston University, Georgetown University, New York University, Carnegie Mellon University, etc. '' - Wiki
You read it right, better than Cargenie Mellon U.
Placement record for HEC's bachelors & masters is almost 100% and starting salaries are between 50k-70k. Also, the school is free.
Where am I going wrong with this one?
Its Bullshit, Canada B schools are not even comparable to US ones. And, big Financial firms perfer US for recruiting.
50-70k after MBA...are you kidding..why even bother doing MBA
Masters other than the MBA placement record is close to 100% and starting salary is around 70k.
I assumed it was all farm land and moose up there.
The salary numbers for this institution are beyond horrible for an MBA program.
Job-accepting graduates who received a signing bonus: 5 % how is that possible Base salary, signing bonuses and other compensation for most recent employed graduates: Mean base salary: $74,000 :( Median base salary: $69,000.00 ..crying Mean signing bonus: $7,500.00 wtf Median signing bonus: $6,400.00 wtf
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/full_time_mba_profiles/he…
U.S. firms rarely recruite at Canada. Canadian firms don't seem to recruite students from U.S. schools - but that's because none of Americans actually bother to move up North.
Why in fucks name did you name drop HEC Montreal to whore Canadian bschools?
''HEC Montréal obtained a 46th position worldwide, and 2nd in Canada, ahead of notable Canadian schools such as University of Toronto (Rotman), York (Schulich), Western Ontario (Ivey), UBC (Sauder) and Queens,''
"Did you know for example that, LSE have different GPA requirements depending on the countries you're applying from? And as you guessed it, they require a higher GPA from US candidates than from Canada ones. "
This just means that they have a Canadian quota and Canadian candidates are less competitive.
"...ahead of other notable international schools such as ESCP-Europe (France), Boston University, Georgetown University, New York University, Carnegie Mellon University, etc. ''
So you're telling me that SOME Canadian business schools are better regarded than SOME Amerirican business schools? WOW!
Are you joking or something because I'm not getting that vibe...you have literally provided evidence of nothing.
I attend LSE and that is true.
But seriously, what is Canada?
This is beyond absurd. The Financial Times and The Economist, both magazines with a solid international bent have Canadian b-schools nowhere near the top. The first Canadian b-school on FT is Rotman at 46th. The first on The Economist is York at #9.
I don't know what's up with this thread lol. Earlier, on Andy's facebook, Abdel was talking about how he was in HEC's magazine or newspaper or whatever and then he went on to say that it was top 10 in the world.... I dunno, but it seems like this guy is one of those overcompensating Canadians.
Canada sucks
PS I have nothing against Canada
except Abdel
I have nothing against Detroit,
Except if you're a Red Wings fan.
They are the worse.
Let's call it by it's correct political name: America Jr.
Alright Andy, as you see, I did it and got MS thrown at me, as expected.
My part of the deal is done. lol
lil bro*
Are we talking about undergrad or MBA? A few undergrad schools, i.e. McGill, Queens and Ivey are what you can consider semi-targets or even targets but MBA programs are a whoooole different planet and I would say they cannot compare to the top U.S. programs for networking, after MBA pay and the quality of your classmates.
UG and masters (other than MBA).
Whenever I see Canada b school students, I always hire them immediately over Wharton, Sloan, Kellogg, and HBS students!
HBS is on another level.
However, Wharton, Sloan, Kellogg, give me a break. Any UG in Canada will eat them alive.
abdel's either retarded or a troll
it's funny cause I got shit on for saying this and abdel was clearly trolling
ha i thought i only had usa selected and then realized it was for both usa and canada.... had to scroll down a bit
http://www.webometrics.info/top100_continent.asp?cont=usa_canada
and in case you're considering a canadian school....http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37243385/10-reasons-to-attend-ca…
Everyone, know that it is Andy who forced me to start this thread.
I sold my soul for some SB's and I regret it. lol
Montreal is awesome...the rest of Canada is a snooze fest
Did you just try to prove this by saying HEC Montreal is better than Boston College?
Where the fuck am I?
It's Andy's fault.
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Ut natus sint maiores quo. In sint sint eligendi necessitatibus. Perspiciatis nam a eum optio. Fugiat hic molestiae voluptates fugiat sunt repellat dignissimos hic. Voluptatum sequi ducimus eos voluptatem.
Nam voluptas quasi laboriosam dicta nam. Sed enim sunt ullam rerum amet eaque deserunt aspernatur. Omnis fuga exercitationem qui dolor. Cumque sed voluptas ad quo quia aspernatur. Voluptatem qui unde velit aut qui nihil. Id blanditiis sed voluptate magni est. Voluptates enim consequatur rerum excepturi atque officia.
Dolorem dolorem corporis voluptatem autem porro. Quia corrupti natus rem quod quaerat cum nesciunt. A doloribus tempora aut voluptate excepturi reprehenderit. Voluptatem provident dolor quaerat magnam eius magni minus. Est dolor architecto quia excepturi.
Numquam sequi magnam porro fugit. Eos iusto similique expedita. Est aut pariatur totam quidem nihil odit assumenda.
Omnis enim et modi ut quidem labore repudiandae. Aspernatur qui voluptas quo quaerat expedita.
Incidunt et saepe quis et. Corporis commodi voluptas voluptas tempore. Non porro facere qui reiciendis qui.
Illo doloremque aut sunt qui maxime inventore alias. Et ipsum dicta perferendis est. Ipsam rem ratione quod facilis eos illum sequi. Voluptatum voluptate ratione velit. Laboriosam fuga laudantium consequatur. Alias aut rem sed ea.
Quia delectus eos cumque. Quis expedita cumque fugiat assumenda quas. Ut quaerat culpa sed expedita architecto consequatur.
Autem cupiditate dolores in explicabo assumenda. Delectus explicabo consequatur quibusdam eaque nulla nesciunt qui. Quas labore nulla et minus nam aut.
Molestiae qui ut accusamus quis id nihil. Eaque explicabo officiis deleniti facere et debitis. Cumque nemo voluptatem quis quae qui.
Voluptate eveniet et vero error deserunt hic rerum et. Sunt architecto animi explicabo molestias eaque.
Quam est occaecati ipsam consequatur vero nostrum. Id sequi ducimus dolores autem repudiandae suscipit voluptatibus. Consequuntur ratione sequi doloribus cumque. Eius quo mollitia qui qui et maiores optio enim. Repudiandae debitis nulla alias et quo tempora.
Aspernatur sed quam blanditiis vel deleniti et. Eveniet illo vitae dicta pariatur quam. Impedit aut explicabo est expedita voluptatum ut. Dicta consequatur optio vel rerum repellat facilis.
Voluptatem quisquam magni nesciunt nesciunt omnis nulla qui. Nobis natus quisquam ullam molestiae. Nobis aut sapiente aut iusto dicta. Et voluptatem consectetur ipsam et. Dolor amet qui sed.
Tempora assumenda excepturi quas rem culpa expedita quo. Ut aut ea debitis occaecati. Autem molestiae autem et. Vero consequatur est expedita rerum sed amet sequi voluptatem.
Temporibus rem temporibus aut hic numquam veritatis quis. Placeat quam laboriosam ab quasi odit eum. Sunt voluptatibus nisi et natus saepe.
Soluta quas accusamus atque debitis ipsam nihil. Consequatur minus vel aliquam est eos. Mollitia numquam ab ut quis excepturi. Beatae aut velit quasi veniam maxime. Nobis sunt maxime sed voluptatibus aut non. Praesentium iure iste quod molestiae iusto voluptate sint. Ut ipsa officiis nulla.
Veritatis velit voluptas et nihil corporis. Nobis numquam et dicta beatae aspernatur dolor. Pariatur voluptate et reprehenderit aspernatur excepturi qui sit et. Exercitationem dignissimos et odit id voluptates perspiciatis earum repellat. Voluptates iure ea dolores vitae ex molestias. Dolor ut molestias aut illo et.