Ways in which NYC is a giant ripoff
This post will piss off the pro-NYC people on WSO, of which there are many. Let me preface by saying that NYC is a great city in many ways. The opportunities, diversity, culture, etc., are awesome. And it's a truly unique city in many ways. Having said that, unless you're wealthy, you have to stare at reality in the face. This is especially true for those of us who will be leaving b-school with massive debt and will most likely have to live in NYC due to work. At what point do you say "enough is enough! NYC is great in many ways, but economically it's not rational to live here."
The city rips us off in many ways:
1. 4% city tax on top of like a 8% state tax. Yes, California and Illinois have high state taxes, but they don't have a city tax. Even if you're making only $100K in NYC, you will be paying aroud an additional $350 per month just in city tax.
2. Rent: the rent in NYC is absolutely ludicrous. Much of the higher prices is due to the fact that there's more money in the city, but a lot of it is due to stupid liberal housing policies such as 80/20 and price stabilization. Not being able to get a decent 1-bedroom in a highrise building in Manhattan for under $3K is mind boggling.
3. Food and drinks are considerably more expensive across all spectrum, not just the upper end. For instance, chipotle in NYC Is 30% more expensive in NYC than other major cities.
4. Public transportation is very extensive in NYC, but using subway and buses are a terribly unpleasant experience, especially during the summer. Try waiting for a subway in an underground station during the summer and you will get a feel for what hell on earth is like. Buses are insanely slow moving, and it can take 30 minutes to just go like 5 blocks.
5. Post-MBA jobs pay the same in NYC as in other cities. Companies do not offer a higher base salary for the NYC office despite the higher cost of living and taxes.
When you combine all of this, I cannot help but think that NYC is a ripoff and not worth it unless you're EXTREMELY well off. And by this I mean consistently making $500K+/year.
You should read my reply to "Life in General Will Cost More Than You Think".
You could've saved a whole lot of words by just calling it as is: "Its a shit hole."
Haha.
I friend of mine was stopped in NY when carrying a large pack of beer - apparently there's a law limiting the amount of beer that an individual can carry at one point in time in the state. Ripoff for sure.
The metro in NYC is really, really bad and an embarrassment to the city. No signs, no displays with arrival time, dirty and horribly sweaty during the summer. Compared to London, Paris, Madrid or other European city or even less developed countries the NYC metro is horrible.
Given the high taxes, we should at least get a decent infrastructure, but it's embarrassing how ugly and third-world NYC is.
I'm not defending the city because I agree with a lot of the frustration as I see so much of my paycheck go to waste, and the subway system is terrible, however they do have signs and have added displays with arrival times at several stations now... Still terrible, but it is slowly improving...
Yeah subways have gotten a bit better. It just irks me that my hard earned money is going towards wasteful government spending and liberal pet causes rather than significant improvements in infrastructure. NYC's infrastructure is third-world compared to efficient Asian cities.
I wish Seattle was a bigger finance hub. No state income or capital gains taxes and you can get a beach house less than an hour away from Seattle for like $400,000.
Yeah it is unfortunate that most of the good finance opportunities are in NYC.
That's why the tax the shit out of it. Once money starts flowing the free riders take over and implement shit economic policy.
At least in Houston you can actually use the beach house.
It's cold most of the year in Seattle, then rains the remaining part.
That's still better than bitch ass waves and swimming in oil sludge. That being said, I throw on a wetsuit and body surf when the beach is covered in snow.
The cost of living isn't horrendous here in Seattle and no income tax is great. What's your view on the future of Seattle? Do you think the tech industry will transform Seattle in the future? Housing in Seattle has been on the upswing too.
I'm ignorant to NYC, never lived there. isn't it much cheaper to live in Westchester County, Connecticut (like Stamford or Fairfield), or Jersey?
FWIW, I've heard San Fran is worse (cost of living wise).
Yep, but the suburb life and commute suck...I know one colleague who commutes 3 hours from Connecticut. Most people in Jersey probably commute anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Hoboken is probably ideal for most Jersey commuters due to easy access to Path and quick commute, although Hoboken rent is expensive these days too...
Have to agree with you. Used to live in NYC (since moved to SF) but everyone i know that was looking for reasonable houses outside the city had to go to the far reached of Metro North/NJ Transit just to get somethign that didnt resemble NYC prices. Once you move you have to factor in all costs of a car and the Metro north ticket which get up in the $500 ranges depending on where you live and then throw in higher utilities and other unmentioned costs and now your riding trains for 3 hours a day hating your life and paying out the ass for your house wishing you had a place in the city.
I will say that as far as housing goes, SF is definitely worse. One bedrooms in crappy areas that arent updated are going for upwards of $2700. Outside of that cost of living isnt that bad in the Bay Area at least compared to NYC.
The subway is fine. Stop being such a pussy.
You're correct, NYC is abysmally expensive, there's no doubt. Everything from rent to taxes to food to services and for anything else you can spend money on. That's why it's tough when you tell your family that you don't have much money when you're 24/25 and making $150-$200k (it was the same when I was that age and lived in San Fran) but I would never recommend moving to the 'burbs when you're young. And when/if you move the burbs as you get older, they're some of the most expensive in the country. SF costs about the same if not a little worse (and the suburbs theer are probably more expensive) and Boston is only slightly less expensive. Chicago seems to be the best place you could do finance in terms of COL and number of opportunities. But NYC has by far the highest concentration of finance jobs so it's not only the place to be right after undergrad or bschool, but it gives you the most options for jobs when you're more experienced and want/need to switch jobs. It sounds great to get a job in a low cost place like Charlotte but if you want to leave your job or there are layoffs there just aren't that many options in Charlotte. Yes there are some but, and I'm making numbers up here, but if there are 5-10 different options in Charlotte, there are 300 in NYC.
And the NYC subway is pretty good. I lived in London for a few years and while the Tube may seem like a thing of wonder when you visit, the service is pretty horrible when you have to use it on a daily basis. As anyone can tell you who has or does live there, there are constant delays (my favorite announcement of all time, and this happens regularly is when the voice comes over the intercom saying "there are delays on the Central Line due to someone being under the train" and delays due to a signal failure seem to happen at least once per day), they shut entire lines down over the weekend, if you have to use certain lines the the Northern trains seem to come every 20+ minutes and it stops service at midnight.
How do you guys feel about Austin? I wanna move there in like 2 years. I can't be truly happy when not in a tank top and jersey shorts.
Austin is great; it's one of the better cities in the south. It will make you one happy monkey.
Austin is the American Dream. And you know those southern girls gon' take care of ya.
Austin's an awesome city. It's very tech oriented and not as much finance but great young vibe, incredible music scene and just generally cool. It's the only city in Texas I'd ever consider. Oh yeah, the girls are gorgeous and actually nice.
Fuck sons, I wanna move to Austin now. I'd even take less full time pay. Don't even care.
How's the Asset Management hustle in Austin? If the pilot thing doesn't work out, I'm pretty sure institutional sales is where I'm going.
Get it done son.
I gotta finish school first and I'm leaving for 6-9 months in October, so I can't do my last semester 'til I get back. So I'm just working in Chicago and Tindering these days.
For real though how's the Asset Management scene in Austin? Good chance I end up pushing mutual funds on nukkas for a living.
Houston and Dallas are good too. For fun, Austin is the best, but Houston has more finance jobs.
I just have a personal thing against Houston. We did an acquisition there when I was younger and I ended up having to stay in downtown Houston for about 2 months in July and August. I didn't know a soul there, it was hotter and more humid than hell, there was one point where I didn't go outside for 5 straight days (took the tunnels to and from my hotel to the office and when I finally emerged from underground it was 106 degrees and 95% humidity so I quickly crawled back underground) and the work was about as mundane as anything I've ever done in my life. And I was living in London at the time so it wasn't even practical for me to get home every weekend.
But if you want to be in anything O&G related it's by far the best place in the US, if not the planet.
Check out Dimensional Fund Advisors.
You're going to have to tone the bro-ness way the fuck down if you want to move to Austin. Otherwise, Dallas has your name written all over it.
Shit, all I need is one.
You wouldn't say no, would you?
@"Dingdong08" Dang, that heat is excessive. My ideal temperature is between 70 and 85 with not too much humidity. Arizona weather is legit, but Arizona itself is boring as being locked in a room with a sack of fleshlights and no lube.
move to San Diego if that's your ideal temp, the weather's perfect there. I've heard Austin is very bohemian, huge music scene, and not stuck up. have 2 friends that just moved to Houston from Atlanta and love it so much more, I've heard Atlanta is a bit stuck up unless you went to UGA/GT/Emory, but I've never lived there so I can't confirm/deny.
I'd say you should look for jobs first, regardless of where they are. if you're in a big city, you'll find something to do. and very few finance jobs will be in undesirable places, unless you're BO/MO.
I go to school not far from Austin and I can confirm this. The place's motto is "Keep Austin Weird" and that's not surprising after you've spent 10 minutes there. That said, the place is pretty cool, esp. the music scene.
The only way Hotlanta can be considered stuck up is if you are comparing it to the rest of the dirty south.
lol, I almost spit out my food...
I will admit my knowledge is limited but it seems there are only 2 places in the US where you can have a legit finance career and actually use the money you earn: houston and chicago. chicago is still pretty pricey and houston is much more expensive (if you live in midtown) than people here realize, but still so much better than NYC, SF etc.
im in houston this summer at a BB and liking it so far. very mild in terms of weather this year (not that it matters since im inside 24/7). cost of living is cheap; im paying $800 for a place 15 minutes from the office with traffic. night life sucks, everyone goes to the same 5 bars/clubs in midtown (gaslamp, shot bar, pub fiction....would love to hear some other places with college-age crowds if y'all know any), but you only have an opportunity to go out once a week anyways. food is great, people are friendly, and the analysts, summer analysts and summer associates all get along great and go out together. that isnt houston-specific, but maybe it's more common down here than in other parts of the country.
NYC would be a blast before 30, after that it sounds like pure hell. you can make a million bucks a year and still commute in to work on an ancient subway filled with smelly panhandlers. not the life for me.
london would be awesome for a third year should that opportunity arise, a truly global city like NYC. plus, the premier league.
@"TheStig"
You mean tone it down in the office, right? I can be pretty gosh darn professional when called for.
What do you mean? Like, I realize I say a lot of silly shit. Is Austin real stuck up or some shit?
I'll chime in as a lifelong NYer. I love NYC, but the COL takes a toll on even the proudest of its residents. If you're at the start of your career you are going to need roommate(s), or supportive parents. Even IBD'ers won't meet landlord requirements...for lower Manhattan, anyway. Bonus won't factor in.
You get a little older and look back on how much cash you burned through...it becomes a little scary.
When you are young you think that you're invincible that you'll eventually be a titan of industry.
As you gain experience and your lifestyle slowly inflates, you realize: fuck, I'm probably going to have to work forever...doubly so if you felt the urge to breed.
I agree with this entire post. One issue though. I'm pretty sure landlords will factor in bonus for the 40X requirement, or am I wrong about that? I mean if a guy has a base of $200K and a $1 million bonus and wants to rent a place that costs $10k/month, I doubt a building will turn him away because of his base salary.
The second consecutive day were a post on WSO confirms something that I had a hunch about, but that I tended to hear otherwise about from most people. Thanks for the post!
As someone who was born and bred in NYC I agree with a lot of this. NYC overall the last 10 years has become quite expensive. Especially when they rezoned Dumbo and started building condos. There has been a lot of genterfication in the last decade in Brooklyn and even Queens so we are going see rent increase across the board since Both Queens and Brooklyn are a lot closer to Manhattan than BX or S.I.
As shitty as NYC Subway system is, it is still far more efficient than those I've experienced in Dublin, Mumbai, Cairo and Madird. I can't comment on Chicago or London or Paris but I've heard they aren't as convenient as NYC.
Anyone from L.A? I have a friend who moved out there and he loves it. The weather, people tend to be friendlier compared to NYC he says. The only drawback is you can't get around without a car.
What's peoples take on L.A?
I'm from LA, so my view is skewed a little bit. I also did an internship downtown for 3 months and commuted from my house (~18 miles) and it was positively dreadful. I was lucky in that my group allowed me to show up earlier in the day (8:15ish) and not have to stay as late (leave between 10-12) so I could avoid some rush hour, but the traffic is truly soul-suckingly bad and it still took me forever to get into the office. I would leave my house at 6:45-7a.m., and I'd be lucky if I got in by 8:15 or 8:30. This was, again, only 18 miles. People aren't exaggerating with how shitty both the drivers and the traffic are in LA.
That said, everything else is really great. Rent has been going up for the better part of the past 5 years, and a lot of the seedier areas of LA are now turning into hipster lofts and rents blowing up for a studio downtown. But you can still find a nice place to live in Santa Monica or Westwood for $1100 which beats NYC by a mile. Food is also generally cheaper and there are tons of farmers markets and ethnic places with inexpensive groceries. We have great Mexican food too.
And lastly, the weather. It really is incredible how nice the weather is out here. People complain when it drops below 60, which should tell you something. No humidity, the beach is never far away, people are always going swimming or playing volleyball or hiking or kayaking or mountain climbing or skating up the strand or whatever else. It's great.
But god damn the stupid traffic here.
My only major beef with L.A. is that you gotta drive everywhere. I don't mind driving per se, but traffic and not being able to take a cab to a bar/restaurant positively sucks. However, the weather, lifestyle, outdoor stuff, and girls, blow away NYC by a country mile.
Make me want to move.
NYC is a damned hard, expensive, inconvenient place to live - all of which also makes it an amazing place to live. You will get your ass kicked, but you will also learn a lot about life, yourself, etc.
10 years down the road, most people aren't going to regret their time spent here.
It would be much easier to list ways in which New York is NOT a ripoff....there aren't any.
Rent in NYC is truly disturbing. If the city abandoned its awful liberal policies, things would be a lot better. Edward Glaesar, a prominent urban economist at Harvard, did a study on this and concluded that policies such as rent stabilization and 80/20 bear much of the blame for the city's outrageous rent.
Zoning laws too. NYC is full of NIMBYs. If you increased the FAR and let developers increase the heights of buildings it would be a huge help. Union labor doesn't help things either.
Totally forgot about the egregious NIMBYs, and don't get me started on labor unions.
When they have power, liberals ruin everything.
You guys think NYC will stay the U.S.'s finance hub for the foreseeable future? There are much more hospitable environments out there. Seems like everyone's main reason for being in NYC is because that's where everyone else is.
Yeah NYC will remain the finance hub. I honestly don't know what other city will replace it or come close. I mean for tech banking obviously SF is better, and Boston has some great AM shops and some top notch PE and VC. But overall, NYC is head and shoulders above the other U.S. cities, and I don't see that changing simply due to higher taxes and costs. Now, a better question is NYC vs Hong Kong.
For a world financial center the only two cities that can be compared are NYC and the City of London. No other destination comes close. Maybe in the future HK will step up. They say that this is the Asian century and all that.
I could see charlotte, NC gaining more steam in the near future, which would be tight because NC is a hell of a state
Most of these arguments seem pretty obvious when you're talking about the financial capital of the world, and a destination everyone in the world dreams of living / visiting.
NY is the leader in sell-side finance, but on the buy-side the disparity is less great. Yes, NY still has more opportunities vs. say SF or Boston or Chicago, but there are a very high number of elite buyside HF/PE firms in those areas (bain cap, tpg, h&f, golden gate, spo, baupost, oaktree, canyon, highfields, berkshire, Farallon, etc. etc.) that blow any NY job out of the water
I sort of agree with this. I mean buyside is a huge space as well. For instance, if you want to do tech PE, SF has more than enough opportunities. If you want a mutual fund, Boston is actually better than NYC. All the funds you listed are awesome, but not sure that they all "blow any NY job out of the water." (although baupost probably comes close) Someone who has no interest in say credit but loves event-driven investing would take paulson or perry over oaktree/canyon.
If you think NY is expensive and you get taxed too much. Come to London. Flatsharing for 1600$ is cool. High flying banker lifestyle. Basically you cant afford even a decent studio in an okeyish place before getting to associate, or if you are prepared to drop more than half your salary. Everything is more expensive than NY. Clothing food etc... Have to admit tube is better quality.
People complaining about NYC should really appreciate how much better they have it than their London counterparts. Everything is more expensive, and I've heard second/third year analysts say that they're completely broke. So, you have worked your butt off for 3 years, have lived in a shitty apartment with plenty of flatmates with a long commute to work, and you have no money whatsoever in the bank.
It's nearly impossible to find anything close to work for less than $1700 a month. Wanna live on your own in a somewhat decent area? Be prepared to pay upwards of $3500/month. Good luck paying that on an analyst/associate salary.
models and bottles? You can't even afford to go out to a nice restaurant, let alone go clubbing in the weekends. Weather? How about rain and overcast for 8 out of 12 months? Exit opportunities? You're expected to be a banker for the rest of your life, if you don't get laid off that is.
Seriously, stop complaining about New York.
OK I agree that London is WAY worse than NYC and in my opinion the most overrated city on the planet.
The weather did me in. Couldn't handle it.
Any of you guys regret living in NY? I feel like the NY social and professional scene justifies the high COL, esp when you're just out of college.
Nowhere in the West is going to overtake NYC or London as the financial hubs anytime soon (HK is close in the East but who knows if it will be there or Shanghai over the next few decades) . The concentration of financial services in both is just too great and it's too difficult to replicate not only the finance people themselves, but all of the ancillary services. And despite the downfall of both being ungodly expensive, they are incredible cities. I've lived in both and I tend to like London more but they're both great cities. I don't know if it's possible or wise to live in either for the long term because of cost but one should live in one or both at some point in their lives, especially when you're young.
LA traffic sucks if you live far from your office...but for those who live and work on the Westside (west of the 405, north of the 10) life is better than anywhere else in the country. Less than a 15 minute commute, amazing weather all year, plenty to do (10 minutes from the beach and an hour and a half from ski resorts), great food and it's only a couple hours to places like Santa Barbara, San Diego and to a lesser extent Vegas. Can't beat it. All you fools in NY have no idea! That's the best part.
Yeah my friends in santa monica told me that if you live in the right part, the driving/commute isn't that bad. Walking through the filth, grime, awful weather, and oppression of NYC, I cannot help but fantasize about socal. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many great finance opportunities.
So accurate about the west of the 405, north of the 10. The traffic on the 110 during rush hour just makes me want to stab my eyes with rusty forks. It's crazy how you can be so close to so many different types of environments, with the beaches so close (the entire south bay), incredible surf spots, mountains for skiing/snowboarding, national parks, forests for camping. The only downside is that you're probably working long hours as a junior analyst.
Also have to echo the Vegas sentiment. Driving out for a quick weekend in Vegas is so great. Can't wait til I can move back out to so cal
As a Vegas lover, the idea of being so close to Vegas sends chills down my spine. There's nothing around NYC worth checking out. Hamptons and Cape Cod are both overrated. Philly and DC are shitholes. And LOL@Atlantic City.
NYC is the easiest place to have a finance career, but there are tons of other cities that have decent amounts of fiance, you just need to work harder at it.
IMO, Chicago is great. Charlotte, Philly, Boston, Minneapolis, Houston, Dallas, etc etc. All places with jobs and low COL.
NYC is expensive, but vibrant. You get what you pay for.
I am from the West Coast currently living in NYC and it friggin sucks.. Like NYC is cool for a minute when you can make midnight dinner reservations and nothing closes till 2 or 4 or not at all... I make just over street on my base and am banking over $1,000 a month in savings. I also pay under $1,000 for rent (and yes I live IN manhattan)
Great thread, got some really great viewpoints from west coast peeps. I feel like NYC is good for a while but unless you really "make it" it's just not worth paying all the taxes and nickels and dimes to live there for an extended period of time.
Yup. Unless you're confident you can consistently make $500K+/year (ideally even more), it's not worth it in the long term. I could see though why post-college kids love it, especially if they move to NYC with their college buddies.
However, it's the place to be when you are young, it is the finance capital of the world. Like anything where demand grossly outweighs supply, it tends to become overrated.
Some good points are made in this thread. NYC is insanely expensive and if you want to build wealth you probably can't stay here long-term. That said, it has advantages in terms of size, nightlife, diversity, culture that no US city can match (I haven't been to most of the European and Asian cities so I can't compare). If you live in NYC for a couple years in your 20s and can't have a good time you probably suck.
NYC is the greatest city in the world. Get a roommate and rent is not that big of a deal. The subway is great in the sense that it runs 24/7 and is pretty much always running, even with the delays. All the other "more efficient" cities have way less people, which put less of a strain on trains and tracks.
Otherwise, NYC is the most diverse, fun and interesting place to live, especially when you're in your 20s. Nothing comes close in terms of the variety of people you can meet and things to do.
This thread is an abomination. NYC is not worth living in unless you make $500k+ per annum? Why don't you join us back on planet earth, pal. It's expensive for a reason - you get what you pay for, in a manner of speaking, but it's perfectly affordable with a little prudence. I can't imagine living in too many other places as a 20-something with no dependents. Just find ways to minimize unnecessary expenses...you don't need to live in a 90 story building overlooking central park with a pool on the roof, and you don't need to eat $200 dinners every night. Be realistic, save where you can given your income and preferences, and try to enjoy what one of the greatest cities in the world has to offer.
@"TheKing" Set these guys straight will ya.
I agree with you. NYC is an awesome city in which to live but it's ludicrously expensive and not worth living in past your 20's. Hell, the burbs are ridiculously expensive but if you're in Wall St. finance (I can't call it "high finance" without hitting myself) it makes sense to work and live there. If it's possible, I'd far recommend living in Des Moines, but it's tough to have the multiple opportunities that exist in NY than do elsewhere.
Why in the hell would someone want to live in a city where they still have to budget when they are earning 150-220k/yr? As far as I can tell that doesn't get you very far in NYC. Especially when you can live like a damn king elsewhere and save for investments + retirement on top of that lifestyle.
Doesn't mean its not a cool city, to visit.
If I have to choose between a lifestyle that involves reigning over a kingdom but being incredibly bored a lot of the time, or a lifestyle that involves always being able to find something new and exciting but having to spend a fair amount of effort budgeting money for personal finances, I would choose the latter every time. I cannot imagine any actual 20-something new yorker saying otherwise.
Once you surpass your 20s and if you end up scrounging up a wife and a child or two, then I can see how it might make sense to move to the suburbs or at least the boroughs - raising a family in Manhattan is tough. And not just for you, but also for the rugrat heading off to nursery school...they'll need a full one page resume.
delete
I live in NYC and I still have more than enough money for my needs and wants. Yes, things are more expensive here than in other cities. Yes, rents are going up. Yes, the taxes are higher.
However, if you can figure out how to live on less money than you earn, none of that will matter. You will always have more than enough as long as you plan ahead. The trouble is that most people don't know how to live within their incomes. Too many people waste money on unnecessary things--clothes, apartments, travel, fine dining, etc. Sometimes you have to learn to say "No" to your own wants.
If you can't live, and have a very comfortable life, on 100k in NYC, you will probably still struggle when you make 200k, 500k, or more. I know people who blow through 200k each month here in the City, and it's still not enough money for their "needs".
Not sure why people keep saying there is more to do in NYC than in any other place. Literally everything you can do in NYC, you can do in LA. And then some. Please, tell me an amazing beach I can go to in NYC that is less than 10 minutes away from Manhattan. Please, tell me about a great hiking trail I can explore in NYC that is less than 10 minutes away from Manhattan. Please, tell me about a ski resort I can get to in less than an hour from NYC.
Sure, things may be open later in NYC...but how often am I looking to explore the world around me at 4am anyway? I'm going to pay $2500 per month to live in a shitty studio infested with cockroaches so that I have the opportunity to get a slice of greasy pizza at dawn? Please.
Food? This always gets me. People in NYC think that it is some unique mecca of international cuisine, alone at the top of the food pyramid of cities. London, LA, San Francisco, hell even Chicago offer the same variety of cuisines, albeit with perhaps slightly fewer restaurants (which makes sense because there are fewer people crawling all over each other...)
Theater? LA has pretty much every play that has been on Broadway in NYC at some point. Do they go to NYC first? Sure, but all of the good ones eventually make their way west.
Public transportation? La dee da...you have a subway. We have taxis too. Plus, Uber. I would never take the subway even if we had one out here.
Cost of living? Ha.
Weather? Come on.
I like LA lot, but the fact that it's so spread out and you gotta drive everywhere makes it much harder to meet people or stay out late without having to worry about driving home drunk. As for food, I agree that other cities have awesome restaurants. The one advantage of NYC (at least in comparison to Chicago, can't speak for LA) is the easy access to tons of good ethnic food. As someon who loves sushi, thai, indian, this is a huge plus for me.
Subways suck monkey's balls during the summer, but it's super convenient and cheap. If you are really using taxis or uber to get around everywhere in LA, that cost is going to add up super fast.
Having said that, yes, the weather, cost of living, outdoor stuff, and girls, all blow away NYC. It's the main reason I'm actually looking at LA post-MBA despite the fact that there aren't that many great opportunities for the stuff I want.
NYC smells like piss.
West 4 station, god I hate it the smell of it. I blame shows like Friends, Sienfield and Feclity for people thinking NYC is the some mecca of the world.
I think we all can agree that every other metro cities can provide what NYC can, and then some. The only thing is that L.A. doesn't have that many finance opportunities as NYC does.
If I could get a solid finance gig that I like out in L.A., I would leave NYC in a heartbeat. NYC is great in many ways, but the filth, grime, outrageous rent, city tax, terrible weather, all grind on you and make you unhappier in general.
LA native here. I can't imagine why anyone would want to live elsewhere, for all the pro's stated. Yes traffic is shit, but it has been getting better, and they are filling out the Metro, which is a real thing now. I know many people who take it regularly for their commute. State taxes are high, but I'd rather pay the extra few % for 60-85F weather year round. Food is amazing here, and access to places like Vegas, Napa, SD, Tahoe all within 1-2 hr flight make for epic weekends.
NYC might have the worst metro system I have seen in the US. Is it that hard to fucking benchmark japan? FFS. And no, I don' t think you are a pussy for not wanting to smell excrement on the way to and from work.
CA state tax is high, but there's no city tax and with lower rent and overall COL, you definitely save money living in L.A. as opposed to NYC. However, there is the cost of having a car and gas.
Lots of clueless people ITT. Just hilarious.
I know, pretty unusual stuff.
Who are the clueless ones? Please elaborate.
Good finance gigs can be found everywhere. If you hate NYC then network and get out. I mean who cares. Like I just can't believe the level of sand in vagina in this thread.
Lol
I agree that the cost of living, particularly real estate, in NYC is absurd. The subway/trash on the streets/homeless people/De blasio all make it even worse. That being said its part of “admission price” if you want to pursue certain careers. It seems like the OP is most focused on buy-side gigs so I’ll tailor this to that purview. You can find a great career in lots of different places, but by far and away the best shot of landing something is in NYC. If I had to rank different cities by the terms of available buy-side, front office jobs for MBA level candidates, I would say:
Boston -A ton of mutual fund AUM and a few great HFs but these positions have no turnover. The mutual fund companies only hire a few MBAs each year, the gigs are generally very cushy and you don’t need a ton of new analysts. The hedge funds have even less turnover. Klarman has said before that they are in more of a “buyers market” for talent because there are so many schools in Boston and so few funds.
Chicago -A few smaller mutual funds and a lot of prop shops, very few hedge funds
California -LA has the capital group and there are some good hedge funds in SF but again there are a ton of schools there and very few spots.
There was a good line on the GS elevator twitter (yes, I know the guy never worked at Goldman). “If you want a mansion, go be the CFO of some dogshit company in Cleveland” It sucks saving up $1mm for a down payment on a 2br apartment when you could pay cash for a sick place in other places. It sucks paying the city tax, high sales tax, and $8 for a beer. The reason to be in NYC is to have the highest probability of landing a premier gig, putting your nose to the grindstone for ten years, and then with a little bit of luck having the success so that the costs associated with NYC are inconsequential. If you don’t make it or get burned out, the high quality experience is probably enough to go just about anyplace else in the country.
I think that is probably the best approach, if you manage to break in, plan on leaving unless you are making a huge dollar figure. That experience + your target education can put you in the center of the universe in a different city.
Well said. +1
As usual, awesome contribution from you. Thanks.
I second Boston. I was stunned at how many quality Asset Management and hedge funds the city has despite its small size. Although I'm not a big fan of Boston unless you're a student, it's still high on my list for that reason.
I've pretty much ruled out SF because outside of tech investing, there just isn't that much there. L.A. has more, but unfortunately my school's alumni network is weak there.
I would lump greenwich/stamford along with NYC since for young people they tend to do the reverse commute anyways.
Boston
-A ton of mutual fund AUM and a few great HFs but these positions have no turnover. The mutual fund companies only hire a few MBAs each year, the gigs are generally very cushy and you don’t need a ton of new analysts. The hedge funds have even less turnover. Klarman has said before that they are in more of a “buyers market” for talent because there are so many schools in Boston and so few funds.
This is very true for Boston. I have a friend who's very senior in REPE who's originally from the Boston area and would love to move his family back there. He's got it all-great experience, top MBA (from 25 years ago), deal sheet like you can't imagine, and the list goes on-and when we were recently talking he said he can't get a job there because there are simply too many good schools there and top MBA's willing to work there because they like Boston and don't want to go, or return, to NYC.
Your last point is so true. I know a lot of HBS/Sloan people who worked in NYC finance before b-school, and they want to stay in Boston. The competition for front-office roles at the likes of Wellington/Fidelity/Bain Capital/Baupost/TA/Summit/Berkshire, etc., is insane.
-People may questions the Greenwich/Stamford placing, and I will pre-empt the doubts. I could throw a football within the radius that encompasses Viking, Lone Pine, AQR, Conatus, Silver point, Ziff Brothers, and Heartland. 300 yards up Greenwich avenue there are all of the guys that used to work for Shumway, a few other Tiger seeds, and some former SAC guys. Tudor is a pain in the ass to get to but is in Greenwich. Stamford has SAC (forgive me Point72) and a ton of smaller start up funds.
Greenwich/Stamford should probably be lumped in with NYC, imo (even Craigslist includes Fairfield County in "New York"). It's less than an hour commute on the train and plenty of people do the reverse-commute. When you combine NYC + Fairfield County, it's a no brainer that the number of finance opportunities in the NYC area blows everywhere else out of the water.
At least NYC's weather isn't to bad. It gets really hot down South and I hate the heat
As others have said NYC is cheap compared to London. And the people saying the subway sux relative to the london tube are just wrong...the tube may have better signage but it has constant service outtages and no fukking air conditioning. Also almost anything "high-end" is ridiculously expensive because of all the middle-eastern and russian oil money in this town...nice restaurants, clubs, etc are absurd relative to NYC.
Also, the problem with NYC in terms of expense is not when u r in your early/mid 20s...paying an extra few hundred a month in rent is not the end of the world fora few years in your 20s and in NYC you actually get something back for it in terms of a city that is 24/7 and very fun (if you dont take advantage then that is on you, not the city)...but the city does become extremely expensive as you get older if you want to attempt to raise kids and keep up with the Joneses in terms of schools and stuff like that. The post about What life Actually costs is the place to go to read about that though.
If not NYC, what are some pros and cons of Charlotte? I know cost of living is much lower than that of NYC, but is the pay significantly less?
I dont know about buyside or the higher ranks, but IB analyst pay is the same base+bonus for BAML/WF. I got an offer from a middle market there that was 5k+65k+20k-30k bonus. That firm kind of sucked though.
Interesting cost of living comparison between NYC and Chicago. The rent part was especially depressing.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United…
In defense of London: Yes the weather is kind of crap, but you have easy access to the Canaries, South of France, Spain, etc for beaches.
As for the city itself, you can get decent flat-shares in central London for £800-900 a month, or quite nice areas of West and Southwest London for around £600-800 a month with a fair bit of space on the high end of that range.
The tube is infinitely better compared to the NYC subway (it doesn't smell like urine, a number of the lines now have A/C, plus it doesn't get as hot in London during the year), the nightlife is fantastic IF you know where to go and even if you don't there are still better bars in comparison (yes my opinion) to NYC.
Plus Boris dominates de Blaiso any day.
One tends to get over the weather pretty quickly and in reality it's the discussion that brings all Brits together: one may be a LibDem the other may be a Conservative, one may be a banker and the other a plumber, but they all agree about the weather. And as you stated, you can be on a beach in the Med in 1.5 hours.
London is probably my favorite city on earth, at least as a city in which one would live (I'm sure there's a beach town somewhere I'd really prefer to live but there's no work there, Paris seems like it would be awesome but all of my friends who have lived there say that it's not as great when you actually do live there) and it puts you on the doorstep of the continent.
That's why you work in the tech or hedge fund industries in NYC. Your company will cover accommodation and food in addition to a generous base salary, so you can enjoy NYC without caring about the cost of living.
Since when did NYC hedge funds pay for one's rent?
As an LA native, I suspect dating and socializing is easier in NYC than LA. Therefore, for most young males, NYC is superior.
The traffic in LA is horrendous. This affects not only your commute to work, but also your social life. If you live on the Westside, say Santa Monica, and your friends live more towards the East, say Los Feliz, the distance and traffic alone is enough to damper any plans.
LA is not a city: it's a never-ending sprawl of parking lots, strip malls, and housing. Generally, there isn't much to do in your immediate neighborhood so you must brave traffic to live here.
Its a terrible tragedy of life that I need to NYC. I'm an introvert. I love the beach. I love driving my car. I hate public transportation. But I love finance and making money. So the universe pulls me to the one place where I can have one and none of the others. Nice post!
I've lived in Dallas & Austin. Both are great. Everytime I visit NYC, while exciting, I can't wait to get home.
I love seeing beautiful women all day who smile at me and want my attention. In NYC, I will literally walk around all day and see 2 attractive (but semi-emo) girls-- the rest are disgusting, and they all have the 1,000 yard NYC stare, don't even acknowledge you. No thanks. Sorry, but this matters to me.
Both Austin & Dallas have beautiful homes, the hottest women in the world (I'm serious, look at UT & SMU sorority girls). I can hop in my car anytime and drive on a nice clean street to a nice clean Walgreens and buy Gatorade. The food is amazing. There's no claustrophobia.
In Dallas, Highland Park is incredible, some of the best schools in America. No deadbeat parents or union nonsense. Shopping has basically everything NY does unless you're into Belgian shoes.
I could go on & on. Equities in Dallas should be a phrase that implies you got a job in a great place.
Although I would never live in Dallas or Austin for a variety of reasons, I agree with the heart of your post. NYC doesn't have that many attractive women, especially given a city its size. Compared to L.A., Chicago, Dallas, Miami, Austin, Scottsdale, etc., it doesn't even compare.
There are a shitton of attractive women in NYC. The fact that you can't get any of them to sleep with you doesn't make them unattractive.
Are you seriously comparing women in NYC to those in Scottsdale? Give me a fucking break.
Nobody's forcing you live here - why don't you just leave?
I think it goes more like San Diego or LA, NYC or Austin and Miami. I've never heard of anyone complaining about not finding hot women in NYC, ever.
Anyone who disagrees with you about Texas having some of the hottest women in the US hasn't been there. I'm not a huge Dallas fan (no offense intended I don't hate it, love Austin though) so this isn't coming from a bias to Texas, but there are so many incredibly attractive, top heavy blond bombshells there it's crazy.
Concur. If that's your type, then Texas is a great place, along with L.A. and San Diego. NYC has very few women who fit that bill.
See The Onion's "8.4 Million New Yorkers Realize NYC is a horrible place to live". And I quote: "Well, fuck that. I don't need to pay $2,000 a month to share a doghouse-sized apartment with some random Craigslist dipshit to prove my worth. I want to live like a goddamn human being." 'Nuff said on the cost of housing.
Yeah housing is my #1 beef with NYC. I could deal with the city tax if rent was more reasonable. Much of this is due to retarded liberal policies. And don't get me started on how filthy NYC is. In many days, I can't distinguish NYC from Calcutta.
The problem with the hot NYC girls, and there are plenty of them but they just don't all look like the sorority, busty, blond hair blue eyes girls in Texas (there's simply more ethnicity in the northeast so there's going to be darker featured italian, Jewish, eastern euro,etc people in general, which if you grow up here is attractive because it's what you're used to) is that you need some coin in your pocket for a lot of them and there's always someone with more of it than you. For example, if you're a 24-25 year old banker making $150-200k after bonus in NYC the really hot 25 year old woman can snag the 32 year old VP/Director who makes $500k+. In Dallas or Denver or any other normal city (LA falls into the NYC trap even moreso) and you're 25 making $200k you're a man among boys and can play the money card. Now that doesn't mean that all women are only after money but the game's stacked against you in NYC. You could substitute housing or overall lifestyle for women as well. At 25 making that kind if money in NYC you live in a generally crappy small place with roommates and pay $2k. In Dallas if three 25 year olds each spent $2k, you'd be living in a palace, if you could even spend $6k on a three bed at all.
And I'd have to throw Boston in there as a city with few attractive women. I love Boston and lived there for years but if you got rid of the coeds there aren't too many good looking women.
Best, most honest and thoughtful breakdown a la women in NYC I've read. So true. Nailed it on the head. And I'll admit I grew up around it, so it's hard for me to get into the East coast flavor of NY. To each his own.
True New Yorkers hate New York, they just hate everywhere else more.
This is the first I'm hearing of New York women not being attractive.
This, and my warped perspective. I grew up around Dallas, and my money goes so much further here. I can see both arguments on the women. I just hate when people are dogmatic about their city without seeing other POVs (I'm guilty of it too, we all are).
[quote=DickFuld]
True New Yorkers hate New York, they just hate everywhere else more.
/quote]
This is probably the most accurate and complete one line description of New Yorkers I've ever come across.
Prof. Hathaway is slowly but surely on his way to becoming the laughingstock of the internet.
Coming in hot trying to steal GoldenCinderBlock's lockdown on internet mongoloid of the hour.
I know, the whole internet. I should deactivate my WSO account in shame for expressing viewpoints you guys disagree with. How embarrassing, what a troll this Prof. Hathaway guy is.
Already gave my two cents but will have to agree that NYC girls aren't great and you can't play the money card. Even if you are in your 20s making PE/HF money and can afford your own place, you are not even close to having a trump card. I would say that the bare minimum to comfortably lead the bachelor/playboy lifestyle in Manhattan would be 700k-800k a year. Not that it is my thing, Gray Fox was only ever good at one thing and it wasn't womanizing.
And there are almost no hot blond girls whatsoever. Forget the classic sorority type girls. Maybe a few good looking southern belles that are in NYC for a few years right after school or hot WASPy chicks from Fairfield County. Good luck with that though - southern girls all want to go home by their mid 20s and the hot CT girl won't be impressed by your West Village apartment that is 6k/month when her parents place in Belle Haven is $12mm
On a random note, for the people plugging San Diego, I'll be there in the Fall, any suggestions?
Great post, sounds pretty spot on.
Limited time in San Diego, I've enjoyed La Jolla, Del Mar, seem to be some of the nicest areas. Get some Cali folks to weigh in on the social scene; I know gas lamp is the bar district, just don't know if it's cool anymore or not etc.
Both DingDong and GrayFox absolutely nailed it. NYC has tons of diversity but very few hot all-american blondes. In Chicago, for instance, you can walk around in gold coast, lincoln park, river north, west loop, wrigleyville, and see these girls left and right. Ditto for L.A., San Diego, Dallas, Austin. The other problem with NYC is that you are never going to be a big fish in the pond. Making $300K/year in Manhattan means you are upper middle-class and dime a dozen. You make that as a single guy in Chicago, and you're a fucking BADASS, a man among boys.
Chicago - Earlier comment is 100% accurate, very tough making friends there as most people relocate from one of the big ten colleges, the nightlife is awesome, food is unreal and public transportation is great. I lived there for two years and had a blast but would never move back there, can't take the 10 months of winter.
NY- Never lived there long enough to make a real judgement.
Austin - Awesome weather, great nightlife, not as cheap as you'd think, most jobs will provide you a great work/life balance, girls are hot as hell but get married very young, hippies. All in all though Austin is the shit, the lake is fun, large/rolling hills and a growing/vibrant city but not many opps.
Houston- Great job opps. in O&G, attractive girls but very clicky (i grew up here and can't image trying to meet new people here). No zoning so ugly as a mug but cheap as hell (outside of westU and a few other high-end neighborhoods), badass restaurants, very spread out so tough to hit diff. bars. The earlier post on everyone going to 5 or 6 places in midtown is spot on.
Dallas-Fuck Dallas
Quis non non provident. Sit sunt ea illo beatae quia minima. Ut commodi non vero quia laudantium rem. Saepe odio sapiente ipsa impedit alias. Qui a alias et repellat sed ut.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Dolor est est consequatur saepe tenetur. Dolorem eius vel veniam et deserunt aliquid totam. Ut non hic aut non vitae.
Molestias quos exercitationem aut consequatur ut soluta voluptatem. Commodi incidunt repellendus dolores quibusdam reiciendis blanditiis qui. Deserunt aut consequatur molestiae dolor assumenda. Iste omnis ullam nesciunt dignissimos dolorem.
Qui consectetur tempore in aut eum error qui. Eaque enim consequatur maiores nemo at. Sit et nisi molestiae recusandae beatae est.
Maiores nihil qui consequatur. Quos iusto illum et ex. Commodi rerum iste qui omnis. A non praesentium dolorem qui deleniti corrupti doloribus. Non est cum aut iusto possimus aut qui doloremque. Sit dolor doloremque sed vero maiores temporibus dolor quo. Quidem adipisci reiciendis est et ut non repudiandae vel.
Quasi ut numquam quo. Dolore id ducimus recusandae quis consequatur et. Corrupti quos quisquam vitae ipsa.
Perferendis molestiae veritatis sapiente. Sequi sunt vel et omnis ad. Magnam dolore nihil ad repellat.
Sit error id architecto soluta reiciendis repellat. Eveniet cumque amet vitae ab animi a. Suscipit praesentium qui magni excepturi amet. Qui nulla qui earum qui quam quos.
Recusandae eius fugit aut dolorem distinctio. Pariatur consequatur fugit ab ducimus natus ut. Pariatur exercitationem architecto labore id veritatis et maiores. Quo ut doloribus illum eos. Omnis nisi incidunt voluptas ipsa excepturi dignissimos est.
Laboriosam aut nihil dolor et atque. Consequatur eveniet aut est consequatur rem vero illo. Qui id voluptatum rem error autem. Similique modi nihil voluptatem ad maxime. Vitae omnis tempora quibusdam quo.
Consequatur ex ad neque. Iusto aliquid qui qui id numquam necessitatibus.
Dolor asperiores et ea aut repellendus. Consectetur laboriosam voluptatibus a repellendus soluta.
Nihil occaecati reprehenderit accusamus totam sint. Ipsum enim est magnam dignissimos culpa in. Nesciunt qui praesentium quis. Odit accusantium assumenda libero qui.
Est nobis veritatis consequuntur dicta qui. Quam voluptatum provident vel explicabo dignissimos nam. Eligendi ratione non temporibus aspernatur exercitationem.
Sed error voluptatibus culpa corrupti eveniet totam. Quasi nihil odio voluptate assumenda autem. Aliquam inventore quisquam est accusantium vel. Quas iure et voluptate dicta voluptatem ducimus.
Dolor est nisi iste repellat consequatur dolores facere. Laborum itaque eos ut reiciendis autem amet rerum.
Error velit quam aliquam vitae quis voluptatem. Sapiente vitae esse debitis rerum. Vitae provident alias at soluta ea est. Accusamus molestiae ducimus ducimus labore.
Sint numquam temporibus quia nesciunt ut earum sint. Asperiores sunt voluptatem ut dicta. Corporis illum omnis aspernatur iste numquam. Vitae officiis labore quo dolor dolor soluta.