Welfare state broken down

Great find. Reposted to my FB.

Safety net has become hand rail....no longer designed to catch you when you fall but to keep you standing no matter what....for shame

Infuriating.

My solution for folks on welfare and unemployment is to require 20 hours/week of community service like they do in the UK.

I agree Anthony absolutely. I am a little more to the right on this issue though.

I think so much of it comes down to the fact that people think, as a human being, they and their children are fundamentally entitled to a certain standard of living (home, food, medical coverage). Until this mindset is changed, these people will go nuts the moment you try to take away any of their handouts. I believe we need to let Darwin have his way with these people -- if they can't contribute to society, we can't afford to continue to artificially prop them up.

Anthony,

I was tempted to post this earlier, but didn't.

It's a sad fact that we live in such a welfare state, but no one wants to point out that there is too much pride for the people on welfare to admit they need help to get out of it and it would be considered too much gaul for politicians to openly make a statement about how to fix the welfare state.

Illini, you want to see community service done in order to recieve your welfare, then you find a senator or congressman who would stand up and suggest such bold and daring action that would be demeaning to those who are on welfare.

I want to see manditory drug testing for anyone on welfare. You are sent a notice for a meeting every six weeks (well within the 90 days for folicle testing) with the welfare people and during that meeting, you may or may not be given a random drug test but when you are it's for both hair and urine samples. This way you can chart immediate and long term usage.

As to retraining, lets just take a page out of the Great Depression and use the unemployed as cheap labor for public works projects. If you want to collect Unemployment, you work for it like everyone else. If you are interviewing for a job and miss a day of work, you need a prospective employer to corroborate your story and put the burden of proof on the worker to prove their point.

Well I am a little middle of the road with things. I think that as a developed nation it is beneficial to us all to have a fall back in case things go bad. We all get sick, lose jobs, whatever. The plain fact is that there are different strata of people and not everyone can have 10K in the bank and multiple game plans. With that said, welfare should be a temporary state and not something that is permanent.

Assistance. When someone assist you they are helping you while you, yourself, are doing something. An assist in basketball is when one person helps another person score. Assistance in the USA should be the same thing. You are trying to do better and we, as a nation, are helping you. It only makes sense that we would do this since once a person gets off welfare and starts providing for themselves the cycle, in many cases, is broken and people will become contributing members to society.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Why is common sense, spoken thousands of years ago, still not being listened to today??

Yeah man, I mean many people who start on the welfare system do so at a very young age. It is still time to build up their skills and get them to college or trade school. It might cost a little upfront, but once you send the message that we will only assist, not provide for you, people will get their shit in order.

I honestly cannot imagine why anyone would be against this. Of course there will be people who will make countless excuses, but in the end, people need to move forward in life. People who exist on welfare (living is not the word to use) are not only a drain on the system, but a drain on themselves.

Good find Anthony. This is all kinds of fucked up.

Just wanted to add......I had a buddy who had a crazy brother. Couldn't really hold a job unless he got some meds, but the only way he could afford them was to be on medicare (cause he couldn't hold a job). So he would get his meds and level out and then make enough that he got kicked off medicare. Then he would go crazy, lose his job, and back to square one.

This country sometimes man.

The article is disingenuous with their claim of higher disposable income for the family making minimum wage. No cash is disbursed to poor people in this nation and the numbers listed are the total amount of benefit they are eligible to receive. It is not as if someone could use Section 8 or CHIP to buy a TV or anything else other than housing and healthcare, respectively.

I think it is important to note the racial overtones in the comments critical of the welfare state. Many people speak of the welfare system like it is to be envied as if the people receiving welfare benefits were all on permanent vacations. That is pretty far from reality.

People are quick to criticize those who did not have the advantages that many of us had growing up.

Remember: The best indicator of your socioeconomic status is your parents socioeconomic status.

Lol. Anthony being Anthony. I can smell ACORN picketing his forum post one of these days.

Hey MP80, the beach called, it wants all that sand you have in your vagina back. Sorry that you can't use section 8 for a LCD tv, I can't use my rent money for a TV either.

Welfare is meant to be transitory, not life long. Also, I am sorry I didn't get the memo, I didn't realize that because a large % of black people are on welfare that I am not allowed to criticize it. Race has nothing to do with this conversation.

I don't think there's any reason to attack MP80 or throw monkey shit at him. His points aren't really off-base as far as I can tell. I see Anthony's counterpoints as well, but still. He isn't out of line with his analysis.

My parents are immigrants who speak very limited English... as a family we've been through periods of extended unemployment and growing debt. We've also suffered medical malpractice and idiot lawyers. They never, ever needed welfare or any other type of government assistance to raise me and my brother, and both of us, I would say, are going to do just fine.

Outside of minor examples like the guy in monkeysama's little story, it is more than possible to break out of welfare. A vast majority of these guys speak fluent English, and there are resources all over that can help you find a job, get an Associates degree, get technical training, find cheaper housing or transportation... and eventually you can break out of the poverty trap. Non-charity 'help' organizations are all over the place... hell, I volunteered at one of these things a few years back. There's no reason so many people should be stuck on welfare for so long.

Just like everything else, a small minority of people genuinely need welfare. A large majority are there by their own choosing.

My post clearly mentions that people of poverty have children in poverty and we, as a nation, need to help them break this cycle. You do not break the cycle by allowing people to stay on welfare forever. Welfare, like unemployment, is supposed to be temporary, not permanent. Unfortunately, when something comes to be depended on people are rarely happy to see it go. Hence the outcry when you try and limit or reduce welfare benefits.

ITS BUSHES FUCKING FAULT

Being poor fucking sucks. Zero argument there. But people are self interested beings. Even the dumbest person is not going to try and better themselves or find another job or whatever if they have no incentive to do so. This break down by zero hedge clearly shows how little incentive people have. This is what creates the cycle of poverty.

Anthony, I don't think that is always the case. In my opinion a good analogy for social circles would be orbits - it takes very little energy for a body to orbit at a a certain level and maintain proper inclination, yet getting to a higher orbit takes a tremendous amount of energy (most fuel is burned during the launch). There are poor people who don't make any effort to not be poor, and there are poor people who work hard by all standards, but their amount of hard work is not enough to "launch them into another orbit". You got to keep in mind that it is not as simple as just making a living for oneself, many poor people have extensive families who suck up a tremendous amount of mental and emotional energy, even if they are not constantly hitting up the most successful family member for money and favors. Then there's the fear of being rejected by family and friends due to greed and pursuit of money and losing the social network, but at the same time not attaining the financial goals either. And what sucks worse than being poor? Being poor and lonely. Also, to mention the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, someone who is fed and safely sheltered is in a better position to make rational decisions about more distant future, than is someone whose entire energy is expended on taking care of tomorrow.

I think apart from career training, people on welfare (and really everyone) should be given financial counseling/training.

Anthony, why don't you ever use this same vigor to rail against entitlements for the upper class? The welfare spending you rail against isn't even a respectable scintilla of the federal government's entire expenditure. Why not use that effort to complain about the America spending 1 TRILLION dollars on defense for this fiscal year?

You seem overly wrapped in, what is at most 30 billion dollars of welfare spending that is completely discretionary in nature. While I can understand the principle, I can not understand the obsession.

No doubt. Being poor and the related social/mental/financial stigmas associated with run deep. We could dedicate an entire forum to the topic and not touch the surface. At the end of the day I stand by my premise. We have free schooling K-12. We have low cost state college tuition. We have countless aid programs to help impoverished individuals. On top of that we have countless non governmental organisations that help people in need. Welfare should not be a constant state of mind with all of this.

This is not a compassion-less post. I understand the tremendous pressure these people face. All I am saying is that the purse needs to be tightened and benchmarks need to be set so people eventually get off welfare.

There will always be people who have no desire to better themselves. These people need to be cut loose. Those who want help will be given help.

Programs may be there, but the beneficiaries many times aren't aware. A friend of mine, incredibly talented and hardworking individual, graduated from a state school with 120k in private loans. You'd think an URM with good GPA, of all people would get a ton of scholarships, grants and at least take out stafford loans instead of private, but those decisions were made based off the TV ads "need money for college? We can help!" because the high school counselor that should have educated the kids about all the options available to them was (is) a lazy and/or stupid douchebag.

I don't disagree with you btw. A change needs to be made, certainly. But it would be more prudent to first inspect the entire pathway, from benefit origination to benefit recipients.

if you got a diversion somewhere along that pathway, then the beneficiaries aren't getting the same amount of benefit that is being disbursed at the origin and thus cannot be expected to respond in a a manner consistent with receiving that amount of benefit.

I better go to sleep my prose gets more and more convoluted

Yes, I agree, there needs to be a consistent message and well trained people who advise along the way. 120K in private loans is a travesty.

Anthony, You are completely wrong in regards to your statement about people living on welfare forever. Perhaps you forgot but in 1996 Welfare Reform was passed. That imposed a lifetime limit of five years on benefit claims by needy families. The only programs in America that provide cash to non-elderly are Unemployment and TANF. The rest of the benefits the poor receive are in the form of medical care and food. I think most people would agree that the richest country in the world should not have people begging for food on the streets.

EOK is the new PJC of this board.

Anthony why won't you own the fact that you were factually wrong?

anthony is never wrong except on fixed income arguments wink

MP80 - If you are commenting on the lifetime limit, you are correct. I was wrong about that.

http://www.mrsc.org/subjects/humanservices/welfare/welfare.aspx

I am very glad that the US government agrees with me. Finally, some sense!

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Don't teach a man to fish-he's a grown man, fishing's not that hard. -Ron Swanson

I agree with mostly Anthony says. I've always been in the vein that is you are born in America, you are F*cking lucky. You only have to try and work, you will make it to the middle class. USA is the land of opportunity, where you can pull yourself by your bootstrap, manifest destiny, etc.

But, on the same token. I feel this is no longer true. I was reading this news article summarizing the findings of some Harvard professor named Norton. The gap between rich and poor in America is bigger than people think.

At: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10318/1102841-109.stm#ixzz169446VwL

"How Americans thought the richest 20 percent of our society controlled about 59 percent of the wealth, while the real number is closer to 84 percent." I am no bleeding liberal treehugger and firm believer you get in this life what you work for. But this is ridiculous. I know the fallacies of data statistics and surveys and spinning the information for a desired end result. I do can almost take any data and spin into a Powerpoint and present you a number of different analysis results. I get it. I am in in that top quartile and lucky enough that my parents worked their way to it as well from almost nothing.

But a country that has this high of Gini coefficient cannot be healthy. In my humble opinion, a country with large and stable mid-class that rough out the edges of the rich and poor extremes is a stable country. Now we get to the heart of the issue of "class wars". The unrepentant welfare class and the extremely obnoxious rude upper class. This divisive divide is not healthy. Truth be told, I don't think there is a solution. The richer, smarter, and more connected will keep on getting richer. While the rest keep getting left behind.

I been involved in a volunteering group last few months where we help coach under-privileged folks trying to get a job. Some people are pretty sharp and as far as I can tell dedicated. Some of course are not, but most seem to want the self-respect that comes from a job. Most don't know how to "network" and present themselves and tailor their resumes for specific jobs. You realize how stacked it is sometimes against folks.

Ari - Thanks for the post. I really wish newspapers would link or cite their articles more. I was looking for the actual research that was done, but this was the closest I could find:

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html

I think right now is a bad time to take measures like this. Most average Americans accumulate the majority of their "wealth" in the form of their house. With housing values tanking people are seeing their paper wealth tank. Once housing prices rebound to a more reasonable level I think this well even out.

I also do not see a problem with these stats. Rich people by assets. Poor people buy stuff. This has been around for the longest time. Rich people invest, buy art work, houses, properties, etc. Poor people buy TV's and new 3 series BMW's. Consumption vs. Investment.

My basic belief is this. With a little effort most everyone can go to school and have modest debt coming out. Once you graduate the slate is clean. Maybe it is incredibly hard to go from poor to super rich, but I do not think it is that hard to go from poor to 50-60-70K a year. No one said the USA was a get rich quick country. We are a nation of opportunity, but at the end of the day it is up to you to seize that opportunity.

Some people are born rich and have it easier. Some are born in ghettos and have it hard. Life is very unfair. We all have options and a chance to better our lives. Maybe the person born in the ghetto will be the first person of their family to go to college. Maybe they wont. The only thing this country HAS TO DO is provide an opportunity.

Play the hand you were dealt and move forward.

Eliminate all welfare/unemployment benefits.

When you subsidize something you get more of it.

this is why im leaving america. no future here