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Wells Fargo Muni/Pub Fin
 

futurectdoc's picture
IB
(King Kong, 1,675
 
Points)
 on 1/17/13 at 10:31pm

What are people's thoughts on the group?

Tags:
WestCoastChimp30's picture

Muni trading (prop group in

CF
 
Points)
 on 1/20/13 at 3:08pm

Muni trading (prop group in SF) or Public Finance (Corp Fin with IB component)?

futurectdoc's picture

WestCoastChimp30: Muni

IB
(King Kong, 1,675
 
Points)
 on 1/20/13 at 4:20pm
WestCoastChimp30:

Muni trading (prop group in SF) or Public Finance (Corp Fin with IB component)?

Corp Fin/IB

WestCoastChimp30's picture

If you're on the corp fin

CF
 
Points)
 on 1/21/13 at 4:13pm

If you're on the corp fin side it's more like middle market lending in the sense that it's highly geographical and you're probably trying to pitch anything from universities all the way to local unions. On the IB side, it's a bit more sophisticated and market-driven.

IB side is growing (WF is not yet known as a GIB/Public Finance shop) and they're busy on the East Coast. Not a bad shop but limited upside. Specific questions, PM me.

Jlb3's picture

Ok, so the last guy does not

(Chimp, 13
 
Points)
 on 1/24/13 at 9:49pm

Ok, so the last guy does not really know what he is talking about. Wells is one of the fastest growing firms in munis. They are decent in the league tables but they make a lot of money in derivatives and other balance sheet oriented products. They have recently hired some top bankers including two group heads from Morgan Stanley (higher ed and public power). I also hear they pay as well as all BB firms.

FYI, when that guy says Corp fin, I think he means commercial banking. I don't think anyone calls it that. The Public Finance group is nothing like middle markets lending.

WestCoastChimp30's picture

Jlb3: Ok, so the last guy

CF
 
Points)
 on 1/26/13 at 6:21pm
Jlb3:

Ok, so the last guy does not really know what he is talking about. Wells is one of the fastest growing firms in munis. They are decent in the league tables but they make a lot of money in derivatives and other balance sheet oriented products. They have recently hired some top bankers including two group heads from Morgan Stanley (higher ed and public power). I also hear they pay as well as all BB firms.

FYI, when that guy says Corp fin, I think he means commercial banking. I don't think anyone calls it that. The Public Finance group is nothing like middle markets lending.

I'm pretty sure I used the terms "growing" and "not a bad shop." Just trying to help out the OP, no need to get defensive.

By the way, according to my contacts at WF, Pub Fin reports up to the middle-market lending group. So yes, the PubFin team (even though they may think of themselves as exclusive) is joined at the hip with the commercial bank. This is not a knock to the middle-market bankers as they've been keeping the lights on at WF, JPM, BofA, and Citi for years now.

Jlb3's picture

Public Finance is an

(Chimp, 13
 
Points)
 on 1/27/13 at 2:03am

Public Finance is an investment banking group (Wells Fargo Securities), "middle markets lending" (I think you mean government banking) is a commercial banking group (Wells Fargo Bank). Dispite the two groups being encuraged by common upper management to work together, the compensation, job requirements etc are completely different. One group lends bank capital and the other structures and underwrites public capital markets bond deals. Analysts and Associates in the Public Finance group are paid in line with other investment banking groups. Commercial banking junior staff is paid in line with other commercial banking groups.

Futurectdoc, I hope this helps. If there is any specific question you have, ask away.

Like westcoast and I both said, the group is growing while most other large firms are cutting people (common theme at Wells). That being said, the municipal bond industry has become highly competitive and many firms are finding it harder than ever to generate significant revenue with lower bond underwriting fees and a reduced use of derivatives.

In terms of rankings, BofA JPM and Citi have recently been at the top of the municipal bond league tables. After that, MS, RBC, Barc, GS and now Wells compete for position in the remaining spots in the top 8.

futurectdoc's picture

Jlb3: Public Finance is an

IB
(King Kong, 1,675
 
Points)
 on 1/27/13 at 11:21am
Jlb3:

Public Finance is an investment banking group (Wells Fargo Securities), "middle markets lending" (I think you mean government banking) is a commercial banking group (Wells Fargo Bank). Dispite the two groups being encuraged by common upper management to work together, the compensation, job requirements etc are completely different. One group lends bank capital and the other structures and underwrites public capital markets bond deals. Analysts and Associates in the Public Finance group are paid in line with other investment banking groups. Commercial banking junior staff is paid in line with other commercial banking groups.

Futurectdoc, I hope this helps. If there is any specific question you have, ask away.

Like westcoast and I both said, the group is growing while most other large firms are cutting people (common theme at Wells). That being said, the municipal bond industry has become highly competitive and many firms are finding it harder than ever to generate significant revenue with lower bond underwriting fees and a reduced use of derivatives.

In terms of rankings, BofA JPM and Citi have recently been at the top of the municipal bond league tables. After that, MS, RBC, Barc, GS and now Wells compete for position in the remaining spots in the top 8.

The contact is within the securities side of things. He did Pub fin at three other BBs, his area is muni housing. Provided he can get me something, what do I need to know in terms of pub fin? I'm reading fabiozzi and read the SIFMA guide.

MFFL's picture

I don't think public finance

ER
 
Points)
 on 1/27/13 at 12:55pm

I don't think public finance is a bad career, but you should understand it is nothing like corporate investment banking. Even though it underwrites public securities similarly to corporate investment banking, public finance requires very little modeling skills. Much of the modeling is done automatically by computer programs. It is hard for any of the firms to differentiate themselves; the final product is going to look much the same regardless of which of the top 15 firms actually do the deal.

It is not a bad career path to go on, it follows the IBD hierarchy of Analyst - Associate - VP - MD, so there is a very clear career progression and the pay is still very good (think about the pay in terms of ER rather than IBD). The biggest issue is that many of the skills you learn are not going to be transferrable to other jobs, as you're not becoming an industry expert, not gaining any real modeling skills, and having intimate knowledge of the way municipal bonds are structured isn't a real benefit anywhere other than public finance, muni trading, or maybe even muni research on the investment management side.

Hope this helps

"Well that's even more than less than unhelpful." - Jack Sparrow

Jlb3's picture

futurectdoc: The contact is

(Chimp, 13
 
Points)
 on 1/27/13 at 3:50pm
futurectdoc:

The contact is within the securities side of things. He did Pub fin at three other BBs, his area is muni housing. Provided he can get me something, what do I need to know in terms of pub fin? I'm reading fabiozzi and read the SIFMA guide.

Yea, other than being asked some bond math / present value questions the interview will probably be mostly fit. Know general trends in the muni maket (look on the bond buyer website) and know about the recent changes in federal tax rates due to the fiscal cliff negotiations. These impact the value of muni bonds. Also, know that recent proposed change in regulations (banking and investment banking) create some uncertainty that effects muni bond clients.

In terms of modeling, if you work in a BB public finace group, you will absolutely use various types of credit and pro forma cash flow projection models. These models might not be that transferable to coporate IB models because the financial statements of muni issuers look different than corporations and corporations have different options in terms of raising capital (most importantly muni issuers do not have equity in their capital stack). For the actual am schedule structuring you will probably use a non-excel program. But I agree, you will spend a lot of time learning nontransferable skills, a lot of which will revolve around tax law.

ChiTown82's picture

MFFL: Even though it

IB
(Monkey, 43
 
Points)
 on 2/14/13 at 4:18pm
MFFL:

Even though it underwrites public securities similarly to corporate investment banking, public finance requires very little modeling skills. Much of the modeling is done automatically by computer programs. It is hard for any of the firms to differentiate themselves; the final product is going to look much the same regardless of which of the top 15 firms actually do the deal.

Maybe some day people who have no idea WTF they're talking about will just stop contributing... maybe some day... Just because we don't do LBO/M&A models doesn't mean we have "very little modeling skills." I spend my days analyzing excel based debt models, building out financial/debt profiles, modifying proprietary models that calculate maturity-by-maturity refunding opportunities, building full-scale primary/secondary trading analyses, writing algorithms/macros/VBA-based functions etc that interface with Bloomberg and then, on top of that, we have to be experts in the modeling software (which isn't done "automatically" - garbage in, garbage out if you don't know what you're doing). Additionally, public finance isn't just "general" municipals; there are specific industry groups such as public power, healthcare, securitization, infrastructure/PPP, etc. that make you an "industry expert", not to mention the many corporations that also issue tax-exempt (investor-owned utilities, energy, waste, airlines, etc.). Is public finance the "sexy" side of finance, hell no. Is it still a quantitatively-heavy line of work, absolutely - if you are in a sophisticated group. It's a much more in-depth version of DCM, and in my instance, with a side of project/corporate finance thrown in. It's actually very easy to differentiate yourself as well - via ideas, in-depth analysis that some firms don't take the time with, distribution, building a network and being aggressive in your pitching... just like corporate finance.

Htc_1's picture

I had a super day with them a

(Chimp, 1
 
Points)
 on 2/24/13 at 2:30am

I had a super day with them a year ago in Charlotte but turned down their final offer. Really great group of people though. Five or six interviews back to back, almost 99.9% fit. Only technical questions were - "if I were an investor, what would I look at when investing in a government bond" and "what affects interest rates."

Hours out of this office are pretty relaxed, 40-50 hr workweeks. Don't know too much about pay though, sorry. Housed in a weird spot in WFS as there is an explicit directive at Wells to work with the commercial side.

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