11/27/10

For example:

VP of Operations at Johnson & Johnson

VP of Menswear Product Development at Macy's

VP of Marketing at Gilette

Any info is appreciated.

Comments (190)

11/27/10

Based on admittedly limited knowledge, I'd think someone at the vp level is making about 100-150 depending on industry

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11/27/10

VP is usually a high ranking position outside of banking. A VP at big oil will likely bring home ~4-500k in salary, low 7 figures (2-3mm) in bonus and have pretty lucrative stock incentives. But, again, we're talking about people in the top 25 at some of the most profitable companies in the world. I don't have a feel for the types of firms you mention but would say Dublin isn't even in the parking lot. An MBA fresh out of school at jnj will make close to a 100k and be a long way from VP.

Remember too that there can be a big difference between fortune 15 and fortune 150, etc.

11/27/10

why don't you go interview for a job there, get it and then let us know. primary research is the best way..yo.

------------
I'm making it up as I go along.

11/27/10

At a place like j&j a vp is making a lot more than 150k, especially when considering all in comp. At many f500 companies a vp is high up there. I have friends at f250 companies where a vp is directly below the c-level execs (about 20 total vps in the co.). Comp at these places was more like 250k and bonus of about40-50%.I also knew directors and vps living abroad that made a ton when considering the entire comp package, some as high as 800k. That being said companies use the vp title differently (like ibanks using vp for mid level jobs). Some firms have GMs, group presidents, etc. Not sure if this helps.

11/27/10

Yeah, outside of banking VP is no joke. Way more than 150K all in.

11/27/10

Make that more like 900k on the salary, with total comp falling just shy of $8mm for the vp's I mentioned above.

11/27/10

My mistake, my exposure is to vps on the corporate side of a bank

11/27/10

When we are talking about f500 VP's we're talking about guys who are 50+, just a notch below c-level and are essentially at the top 1% of the company? If so, then 7 figure comp packages make sense. Otherwise I have a hard time believing that they are pulling in over 1mm a year as was mentioned.

How about just below VP level then? What is that, director? Would that be more like the previously mentioned 150k?

11/27/10
Lucaskhan:

When we are talking about f500 VP's we're talking about guys who are 50+, just a notch below c-level and are essentially at the top 1% of the company? If so, then 7 figure comp packages make sense. Otherwise I have a hard time believing that they are pulling in over 1mm a year as was mentioned.

How about just below VP level then? What is that, director? Would that be more like the previously mentioned 150k?

Well...we are talking about people who carry the title of "vice president" and yes, in those types of organizations, those people tend to be early 50's. That's not top 1%, more like top .03%...say 25 people in an 80k man organization.

So you'll grant that a VP can make several mm/yr, but the guy just below him makes <5% of that? False. At a firm like Exxon, below VP generally carries the title of "manager"...but manager can have several tiers and several "grades", even within same tier. First hand knowledge of such a position would indicate a salary in the 300k range, bonus around $1.5mm, and a modicum of stock award, penion nonsense etc.

You have to realize, even at the "lowly" title of manager, you're talking about someone who is in the top 100-200 people in an extremely large and profitable organization. It's a very different hierarchy with very different metrics than the types of firms that most on this board are familiar.

11/27/10
Cartwright:
Lucaskhan:

When we are talking about f500 VP's we're talking about guys who are 50+, just a notch below c-level and are essentially at the top 1% of the company? If so, then 7 figure comp packages make sense. Otherwise I have a hard time believing that they are pulling in over 1mm a year as was mentioned.

How about just below VP level then? What is that, director? Would that be more like the previously mentioned 150k?

Well...we are talking about people who carry the title of "vice president" and yes, in those types of organizations, those people tend to be early 50's. That's not top 1%, more like top .03%...say 25 people in an 80k man organization.

So you'll grant that a VP can make several mm/yr, but the guy just below him makes <5% of that? False. At a firm like Exxon, below VP generally carries the title of "manager"...but manager can have several tiers and several "grades", even within same tier. First hand knowledge of such a position would indicate a salary in the 300k range, bonus around $1.5mm, and a modicum of stock award, penion nonsense etc.

You have to realize, even at the "lowly" title of manager, you're talking about someone who is in the top 100-200 people in an extremely large and profitable organization. It's a very different hierarchy with very different metrics than the types of firms that most on this board are familiar.

That is quite impressive. Any reason why you aren't pursuing that route? I am guessing that once you reach that level, it becomes extremely difficult to advance. A career track reaching to the tip-top is simply not as linear or well-defined as certain areas of wall street right? I myself am considering making a career in f500 finance by beginning in some sort of rotational/leadership program. Although I am not specifically looking at the oil industry (which could be more lucrative than others), this is still good information to know, especially from a firsthand source such as yourself.

11/28/10
Lucaskhan:

That is quite impressive. Any reason why you aren't pursuing that route? I am guessing that once you reach that level, it becomes extremely difficult to advance. A career track reaching to the tip-top is simply not as linear or well-defined as certain areas of wall street right? I myself am considering making a career in f500 finance by beginning in some sort of rotational/leadership program. Although I am not specifically looking at the oil industry (which could be more lucrative than others), this is still good information to know, especially from a firsthand source such as yourself.

I'd say by that point most people are pretty satisfied with their advancement. As for me personally, I'll take it...tell me where to sign up!

Seriously though, I might go down that path but more focused on IB for the time being. One of the biggest differences between f500 and a banking track is performance evaluation. At an Exxon, you might not know whether you're on the scrub track or the star track for 10 years, whereas in banking, your assessment is much more immediate. Different strokes for different folks, etc.

11/27/10

there is no easy way to answer this with the complexity of their compensation packages... stock options, base, salary, other factors, othert benefits....

but 150k sound wicked low... I know Car Dealership GM's that make 120k base before the store commission.

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11/27/10

Reuters provides some info on high-level execs:

J&J: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/companyOffic...

Macy's: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/companyOffic...

P&G (Gillette): http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/companyOffic...

Click on the names to see the comp breakdown (salary/options/etc). Not a whole lot on here beyond the few key people but still interesting.

11/28/10

I think most of you guys are a little high on your estimates (but 150k is too low).

I work a F500, but it seems as though the VP title might be slightly less exclusive at my company than other posters seem to indicate.

I'm sure there is a wide variation, but I have access to some actual salary information (bonus, stock incentives, etc... are slightly less clear). I would say as a VP it is safe to assume ~$250k salary and ~50% bonus.

Also, while irrelevant to this conversation, I don't consider a VP to be an "executive". Sr. Leadership, etc - yes, Executives - no.

11/28/10
accountingbyday:

I think most of you guys are a little high on your estimates (but 150k is too low).

I work a F500, but it seems as though the VP title might be slightly less exclusive at my company than other posters seem to indicate.

I'm sure there is a wide variation, but I have access to some actual salary information (bonus, stock incentives, etc... are slightly less clear). I would say as a VP it is safe to assume ~$250k salary and ~50% bonus.

Also, while irrelevant to this conversation, I don't consider a VP to be an "executive". Sr. Leadership, etc - yes, Executives - no.

Feel free to check a proxy statement, or you can go here for some dated, but broken out Info. http://www.companypay.com/executive/compensation/e...

Ill grant that there is some variation, but If a top 20 guy at a company with 80k employees isn't an executive, I don't know who is.

11/28/10

Pretty big differences between VPs and SVPs (I don't think most VPs are going to be among the top 20 in a company, though SVPs can have responsibilities as important as some C-level executives from my understanding) as well with regards to compensation (esp on the stock benefits side of things). I think Cartwright's experienced might be a bit biased since he seems to be energy focused, which is substantially different than many other industries. One of my good friends from college is the son of a former F100 CEO and the typical pay outside of the absolute best bull market years (think just pre-07 or late 90s if you have big stock packages) weren't close to the quoted levels for even SVP level folks. High 6 figures all-in, sure, but over 7 figures was pretty much irrational-bull-market dependent.

11/28/10

From personal knowledge for relative comparison...

F100 CEO - 10mm total comp
F100 SVP ~ 500-750 base
F100 Manager ~ 200 total comp; structure being manager ->director ->VP ->SVP

11/28/10

That is almost exactly what I heard from my friend's dad, Ferragamo, w. pretty significant variation for C-level execs that have big stock packages.

12/2/10

It's been said already, but titles work very differently in the F500. For example, you'll often find the title VP attached to an Executive title.

Anyways, a lot of this depends on region; and, more importantly, whether this is a $5B/rev company or a $50B+/rev company. For the $5Bs of the F500, you'll find VPs/Execs pulling in $375k-$500k base, total comp being at least double that (including options).

12/3/10

VPs at F500s aren't necessarily at the very top. If you're talking VP at the national level, yes, but keep in mind many of these companies have regional VPs as well that may make in the low six digits with a decently sized bonus. Others may use Senior VP, VP, and Junior VP as well, with Juniors making more or less what an experienced associate at an IB makes.

With F500s it becomes a lot less cut and dry, it really depends on the company and what you're doing. If you're looking at specific companies to work for, it might be a good idea to do research on those companies and go look at their websites. Some of them will have a list of their major players on their website and thats a good way to see what theyre working with

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12/12/10

from personal experience at my company (F500 tech firm):

Structure (from top to bottom):
- C-Level Executives (top 20 or so people at the company): total comp $5M+/year
- VPs: total comp ~$2-5M/year
- General Managers: ~$500K-$2M/year
- Sr. Director/Director: ~$300-500K/year
- Sr. Manager/Manager: $150-300K/year
- Sr. Analyst/Analyst: $100-150K/year

*Total compensation includes base salary + cash bonus + stock options (generally have 5-year vesting period)

12/12/10
harvardgrad08:

from personal experience at my company (F500 tech firm):

Structure (from top to bottom):
- C-Level Executives (top 20 or so people at the company): total comp $5M+/year
- VPs: total comp ~$2-5M/year
- General Managers: ~$500K-$2M/year
- Sr. Director/Director: ~$300-500K/year
- Sr. Manager/Manager: $150-300K/year
- Sr. Analyst/Analyst: $100-150K/year

*Total compensation includes base salary + cash bonus + stock options (generally have 5-year vesting period)

Analysts are making 6 figures?

If so, why don't people do F500 more, seems almost as lucrative as banking.

12/12/10

absinthe, I believe, generally speaking, that the analysts are typically post-banking hires. So about $100k for someone who has spent two years in banking makes a little bit of sense. harvardgrad, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

12/12/10

generally analysts are undergrad hires...for example a 1st year analyst at my company has a base salary of $75K + 0-20% bonus (avg. ~10-12%) + stock options (range from $0-60K but avg. is ~$15K vested over 5 years). The vast majority of 1st years pull in ~$90-100K total comp...that said, most work 40-50 hrs/week.

sr. analysts or managers are post-banking hires with comp for what would be an equivalent 1st year associate at ~$135-150K.

I've created the following thread to answer corporate finance/strategy/development questions.
(http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-other-ro...)

4/26/11
harvardgrad08:

generally analysts are undergrad hires...for example a 1st year analyst at my company has a base salary of $75K + 0-20% bonus (avg. ~10-12%) + stock options (range from $0-60K but avg. is ~$15K vested over 5 years). The vast majority of 1st years pull in ~$90-100K total comp...that said, most work 40-50 hrs/week.

sr. analysts or managers are post-banking hires with comp for what would be an equivalent 1st year associate at ~$135-150K.

I've created the following thread to answer corporate finance/strategy/development questions.
(http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-other-ro...)

Fuck the Street. I'm goin F500.

4/28/11

150 is certainly low ;)

Before Consulting I did HR for a government in Canada. (All their salaries are available online), but here is a quick show and tell:

Bonuses are available in years when the government did well, based on the theory of gain-sharing.

HR Consultant (8 years experience + undergrad, satisfactory performance could get you here in a career)
- 94,000 + (I think up to 8% salary as bonus)

Mid-Manager, front line to director (8-10 years, undergrad + above average performance and development)
- 61-123k (+ I think up to 12%)

Assistant Deputy Ministers (C-Suite level roughly)
- 141-185k (+20% bonus I think) (5 of these for 1800 employees)

The stated hours are 36 per week...but they are probably closer to 40 - 60 for executive directors and higher depending on the week. Contrary to most people's view, from my experience a lot of them carried a lot of stress and were not lazy. Like any steady organization (non consulting/IB) the higher you are, the less lazy you likely are.

It isn't a bad deal based on a career there...you could retire around 55-60 (depending when you started) on a pension of 66% your top 5 earning years. Granted you get to deal with no one in private thinking you're as hard working as them...and as a consultant now, I can say most companies are about equal to where I was in Gov.

Have an Aunt at ING as a VP in HR (UK) and I heard she earned a $500k USD bonus (boom year, 2003-04 I think).

So depending on what you want, there are some fairly competitive salaries in all industries (high school Oil workers in my area making 100-170k per year depending on OT).

TT

4/28/11

CFO's and treasurers make bank, but the lower level guys won't approach IB analysts/associates in all-in comp. That said, they probably do better per hour, as they work 50 hrs/week.

4/28/11

Usually yes, you will be doing much better/hr.

Be very fucking careful with this generalization though. GM's Treasuries office for example, used to (I don't know about now) have banking-level hours as well (2 or 3 in the morning) for entry-level guys. F500 is a diverse enough group that you should be looking at the firm. it's not like investment banks where the truth is they're all the same.

4/28/11

I completely agree with Warhawk. Fortune 500 firms differ significantly from each other depending on field, management and probably even team within the firm. While banking is known for its long hours and (at least until recently) very good pay, Fortune 500 firms are far spottier - some will pay very well and work you like an IBank, others will pay well with better hours, and others pay much less with varying hours. Best thing to do is go out for the interviews, land some jobs, and then do some research into the position, the work/life balance and the pay for each of the offers.

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4/28/11

Thanks for the tips guys.

How come you never hear of people transitioning from banking to corporate finance?

4/28/11

If you are referring to Fortune 500/Corporate roles, it happens quite frequently, it's just not as desirable as making the jump into P/E or B school, and isn't as standardized (meaning 2 or 3 years analyst, then make the move) - therefore, it's not as spoken about.

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4/28/11

Generally the jump occurs at each promotion level. For instance, not every associate makes VP, not every VP makes MD, not every MD makes PMD, and so forth. Mostly, however, former analysts go into Corp Fin roles at F500 after business school.

For example GE offers MBA hires a salary of about 110K+ bonus of 15-25% of salary. An associate at an IB makes 95k +90-150% bonus. Particularly after you have been raped as an analyst for 2 or 3 years, and you have had a hiatus that people call "business school", it kinda makes sense to work 50hrs a week v. 85hrs a week.

4/28/11

That makes sense. I wasn't sure if one could easily transition from IB after a few years to corp. fin. so I just wanted to clarify because I may follow that career path.

4/28/11

I doubt anyone will check this thread anymore considering its age but I'll ask anyways. How much easier is it to get a corporate finance job out of business school than an associate-level job in banking or PE (assuming two years of IB analyst work before B-school)? Is it possible to get a higher-paying job in corporate finance after being an associate in IB? Is this still common?

4/28/11

1

4/28/11
4/28/11

Fortune 10 corp fin start you in the 50k-55k range, depending on location. 3 years and then top MBA will surely put you on the path to upper management. Corp fin is a great pre-MBA experience if you're not looking to transition to private equity directly after b-school. (the transition to ibanking is still possible post MBA)

MKballer

4/28/11
mkballer:

Fortune 10 corp fin start you in the 50k-55k range, depending on location. 3 years and then top MBA will surely put you on the path to upper management. Corp fin is a great pre-MBA experience if you're not looking to transition to private equity directly after b-school. (the transition to ibanking is still possible post MBA)

what are the chances of transitioning to a boutique or MM IB with f500 corpfin experience?

4/28/11

im starting in a corp fin role at a f500 this summer. starting salary 55k and up to about 65k with bonuses.

4/28/11

Is it safe to say that you could be at about 90k all in by the third year ?

I Got a dollar and a dream...

4/28/11

Is it safe to say that you could be at about 90k all in by the third year ?

I Got a dollar and a dream...

4/28/11
BankMonkey21:

Is it safe to say that you could be at about 90k all in by the third year ?

No, not safe at all. I have found corp fin to be surprisingly merit based (F100, fin sector). I would say 20-30% will make 90K all in by the third year. Of course, if you bust your ass for three years, the odds improve...

4/28/11
Dr Joe:
BankMonkey21:

Is it safe to say that you could be at about 90k all in by the third year ?

No, not safe at all. I have found corp fin to be surprisingly merit based (F100, fin sector). I would say 20-30% will make 90K all in by the third year. Of course, if you bust your ass for three years, the odds improve...

That clears things for me...thanks

I Got a dollar and a dream...

4/28/11

andy,

I've have seen a couple people do it. like mk baller said. A few years in corp finn and then MBA will put you in a good spot for an IB gig.

I have also seen 2 year corp finn stint -> BB IB -> PE -> top MBA

4/28/11

What about post MBA F10? What is the rank/pay structure like at GE,Boeing, Exxon, etc.?

4/28/11

^I'm curious about this as well. I believe I eventually want to do corporate finance and have no intention of moving into investment banking/consulting/PE, so I'm wondering what the typical career progression is at a large company.

Pretty women make us BUY beer. Ugly women make us DRINK beer.

4/28/11

JC, you having doubts on entering IB post MBA?

4/28/11

Not really, but its good to have a backup plan.

4/28/11

Post MBA, most F100-500 companies offer similar salaries, i.e. 100-120 starting. I would not look at F10 companies only as some of them are really shitty places to work, mainly because of their enormous size - very bureaucratic, may take forever to progress + really crappy and stiff culture. Whether a company is a good place to work doesn't correlate that highly with size. Many F100 companies are really selective at the MBA level and it's not like you can waltz in if you don't get banking. Most have fewer openings - 1-2 to 5-6 per year in total and get many more MBA apps than they have spots. I've seen people who couldn't land a gig in IB struggling to find job at other companies. They didn't network with other firms at all, weren't invited to interviews at F100 and had to bid, after which they were weeded out after the first round and left with nothing. That's why I would select companies that would be a good fit and show interest and network with them from the very start. Otherwise you can be written off as not serious enough and they won't give you an interview.

4/28/11

It's definitely possible to transition to IB after two years in corp fin or after getting an MBA. Post-MBA salaries in corp fin start at ~85K, depending on firm and location.

MKballer

4/28/11
mkballer:

It's definitely possible to transition to IB after two years in corp fin or after getting an MBA. Post-MBA salaries in corp fin start at ~85K, depending on firm and location.

That number is way off if we are talking about top MBA programs and F100 companies. Hi-tech, oil & gas corpfin start at 100-110. The low end is around 95 - that's what retail pays. It's not that 85 is not possible, but I would say it's really rare, at least if we are talking big companies. I'm not really sure what kind of company recruiting at top schools would pay as low as 85k.

4/28/11

It is difficult to determine whether you can be making 90K by your third year in corp fin. I would say less than 10-20% of a given analyst class will make this by their third year. This is dependent on what kind of career program they offer. For example, if you are going into a program that offers a 2-year rotational experience, then making it to the 90K mark based on merit is easier to achieve than if you were working in a 2.5 or 3 year rotational program (because you will be able to transition to a managerial role in 2 years vs. 3 years). Also, many fortune companies expect an MBA after the rotational program, which would put you in the 90K range after 3-5 years. So, with an MBA, I would say 90K is likely in your 4th - 5th year with the company.

MKballer

4/28/11

That is pretty low salary for someone who just dropped a ton of coin on an MBA

4/28/11
jc100021:

That is pretty low salary for someone who just dropped a ton of coin on an MBA

I agree, but what you have to remember is that you will be on the track to upper management and that work-life balance is WAY better than banking.

MKballer

4/28/11

Any one know the numbers for corporate finance at mattel after a mba?

4/28/11
go4it:

Any one know the numbers for corporate finance at mattel after a mba?

Probably in the 85k-95k range, depending on location.

MKballer

4/28/11

I'm starting in a F100 2-year rotational financial development program next year, and they prefer analysts to go straight into their third year without getting an MBA. What I've been told is they make such a huge investment in you that they aren't willing to risk you taking it somewhere else post-MBA. ~90% of analysts return immediately after their 2 year stint is up at my place.

4/28/11
Pierrepont:

I'm starting in a F100 2-year rotational financial development program next year, and they prefer analysts to go straight into their third year without getting an MBA. What I've been told is they make such a huge investment in you that they aren't willing to risk you taking it somewhere else post-MBA. ~90% of analysts return immediately after their 2 year stint is up at my place.

I know F100 that will pay for your MBA if you sign a contract saying you will come back after school.

MKballer

4/28/11

Is there a typical progression to upper management like in IBD? 3 years Associate, 4 years VP, MD...

What about GE? Do they have a defined rank structure/pay scale?

4/28/11
jc100021:

Is there a typical progression to upper management like in IBD? 3 years Associate, 4 years VP, MD...

What about GE? Do they have a defined rank structure/pay scale?

There is, but it's not as defined/ pre-determined as it is in investment banking. Honestly, if you're a star you will get promoted very quickly, i.e. managing people after your 2nd year.

MKballer

4/28/11

Hello guys:

I am brand new to the board. I am currently going through the business school application process. Anyways, I was interested in corporate finance as my career track. Problem is, it will be a complete career change, as I am currently in sales. Is it realistic for me to gain employment as a corporate finance professional given my background not consisting of previous finance experience?

I hope to be coming from a top 25ish business school (i was admitted to Washington University- St louis so far, waiting on other schools, no rejections yet)

Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated

Have a good one all

4/28/11
ejam21:

Hello guys:

I am brand new to the board. I am currently going through the business school application process. Anyways, I was interested in corporate finance as my career track. Problem is, it will be a complete career change, as I am currently in sales. Is it realistic for me to gain employment as a corporate finance professional given my background not consisting of previous finance experience?

I hope to be coming from a top 25ish business school (i was admitted to Washington University- St louis so far, waiting on other schools, no rejections yet)

Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated

Have a good one all

Yes, it is absolutely possible. Concentrate your coursework on finance or corporate finance, if it is an option, during your MBA.

MKballer

4/28/11
mkballer:
ejam21:

Hello guys:

I am brand new to the board. I am currently going through the business school application process. Anyways, I was interested in corporate finance as my career track. Problem is, it will be a complete career change, as I am currently in sales. Is it realistic for me to gain employment as a corporate finance professional given my background not consisting of previous finance experience?

I hope to be coming from a top 25ish business school (i was admitted to Washington University- St louis so far, waiting on other schools, no rejections yet)

Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated

Have a good one all

Yes, it is absolutely possible. Concentrate your coursework on finance or corporate finance, if it is an option, during your MBA.

Thanks for responding to my post. I was wondering if there was anything else I could do to help my case. Im wondering how I can overcome my lack of experience since many people looking for corporate development jobs will have finance experiences. Thanks

4/28/11
ejam21:
mkballer:
ejam21:

Hello guys:

I am brand new to the board. I am currently going through the business school application process. Anyways, I was interested in corporate finance as my career track. Problem is, it will be a complete career change, as I am currently in sales. Is it realistic for me to gain employment as a corporate finance professional given my background not consisting of previous finance experience?

I hope to be coming from a top 25ish business school (i was admitted to Washington University- St louis so far, waiting on other schools, no rejections yet)

Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated

Have a good one all

Yes, it is absolutely possible. Concentrate your coursework on finance or corporate finance, if it is an option, during your MBA.

Thanks for responding to my post. I was wondering if there was anything else I could do to help my case. Im wondering how I can overcome my lack of experience since many people looking for corporate development jobs will have finance experiences. Thanks

Do very well in school and build a great story as to why you want to pursue a career change into corp fin.

MKballer

4/28/11

If i'm not mistaken, isn't the corp fin you do more like accounting then Corp Fin you learn in school?

4/28/11
migs:

If i'm not mistaken, isn't the corp fin you do more like accounting then Corp Fin you learn in school?

No.

MKballer

4/28/11

Actually that not safe at all!I found that the company is based on fin performance is amazing (for F100, fin sector). I would say 20-30% will be 9 million in the third year all in....

4/28/11

i see this discussion was mostly about corp finn...how about corporate development (in house M&A) where do salaries start at? career progression? What age can you make manager, vp, director?

4/28/11

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4/28/11

Why do you ask only about operations? What about more relevant/comparable roles such as finance or strategy where you're essentially doing the same thing, just at an investment bank instead of a random company?

4/28/11

I had 3 offers/potential offers coming out of UG:

F500 corp fin: 40-45
F500 bus/fin rotational: ~50
BB MO finance rotational: 60

4/28/11

because they are more comparable in terms of hours and pay and the like, im not doing it for any job selection reason just purely curious but anyone can say anything they want

dont really care about the entry salaries, more so about 2nd/3rd step mid career salaries and all, and just a curiosity

4/28/11

You're asking for advice on a potential issue that has the possibility of maybe putting you at a hypothetical fork in an imagined ideal road 7 - 14 years down the line.

No one can help you.

That said, all factors remaining constant (which they won't):

1. Probably
2. Yes
3. Depends on the industry
4. Hard to tell

Equities are for chumps.

4/28/11

It's accurate. Usually 2 years till SFA, 6-10 years till Manager. After that I think it's based on how you perform/who you know.

4/28/11

What percent don't go beyond the "manager" spot?

4/28/11

That looks about correct. My company is generally in the middle of all those ranges. SFA is 3ish years, Manager is as early as 5 if you are great. Director i've seen the earliest be 8-10 most are probably 15-20, though. At my company If you are an FLDP you'll probably make Director someday unless you suck. Non-FLDP's most don't make director. And the FLDP's that make director do on average around 12-15 out i'd say.

4/28/11

AllDay_028:
That looks about correct. My company is generally in the middle of all those ranges. SFA is 3ish years, Manager is as early as 5 if you are great. Director i've seen the earliest be 8-10 most are probably 15-20, though. At my company If you are an FLDP you'll probably make Director someday unless you suck. Non-FLDP's most don't make director. And the FLDP's that make director do on average around 12-15 out i'd say.

AllDay, would you mind sharing which Industry you are in?

4/28/11

AsianMonky:
AllDay_028:
That looks about correct. My company is generally in the middle of all those ranges. SFA is 3ish years, Manager is as early as 5 if you are great. Director i've seen the earliest be 8-10 most are probably 15-20, though. At my company If you are an FLDP you'll probably make Director someday unless you suck. Non-FLDP's most don't make director. And the FLDP's that make director do on average around 12-15 out i'd say.

AllDay, would you mind sharing which Industry you are in?


Aerospace
4/28/11

AllDay_028:
AsianMonky:
AllDay_028:
That looks about correct. My company is generally in the middle of all those ranges. SFA is 3ish years, Manager is as early as 5 if you are great. Director i've seen the earliest be 8-10 most are probably 15-20, though. At my company If you are an FLDP you'll probably make Director someday unless you suck. Non-FLDP's most don't make director. And the FLDP's that make director do on average around 12-15 out i'd say.

AllDay, would you mind sharing which Industry you are in?


Aerospace

East Coast or Midwest? I wonder if East Coast pays more than Midwest...

4/28/11

AsianMonky:
AllDay_028:
AsianMonky:
AllDay_028:
That looks about correct. My company is generally in the middle of all those ranges. SFA is 3ish years, Manager is as early as 5 if you are great. Director i've seen the earliest be 8-10 most are probably 15-20, though. At my company If you are an FLDP you'll probably make Director someday unless you suck. Non-FLDP's most don't make director. And the FLDP's that make director do on average around 12-15 out i'd say.

AllDay, would you mind sharing which Industry you are in?


Aerospace

East Coast or Midwest? I wonder if East Coast pays more than Midwest...


East Coast
4/28/11

F50 - These are just salaries for finance personnel. At the VP level and higher their equity & other comp is going to be an additional 75%+. C levels have received stock options/bonuses 5-10x their base salaries which isn't all that uncommon in a great year.

FA: $55-$65
SFA: $65-95
Manager: $85-$110
Snr Manager: $105-$145
Director: $140-$215
Snr Director: $175-$275
VP: $275-600
SVP: $600-1,500
C Level: $3000+ (It's public record, but I don't feel like digging for it)

4/28/11

F50, non-NYC. Number of yrs to get promoted is in parenthesis, assuming top ranked. Bonus not included.

FLDP (2yrs) --> FA (1-1.5yrs) --> SFA (3-4yrs) --> Mgr (4-5yrs) --> Director (5+) --> VP -> etc

$55K - $65K --> $70K - $80K --> $75K - $110K --> $100K - $135K --> $140K - $250K --> ?

4/28/11

Bumping this for some more discussion.

How much to salaries vary by location? NYC, Boston, Bay Area, etc all have high CoL and in turn higher salaries, but what about big cities with lower CoL such as Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, etc?

"There are only two opinions in this world: Mine and the wrong one." -Jeremy Clarkson

4/28/11

I see the above as being for low and medium COL areas. High COL areas get a pretty small base bump, which nowhere near covers the spread between say, houston and NYC, so you're better off in a low COL area from a pure savings perspective. Things such as networking opportunities and social scene can be the areas that help offset it.

4/28/11

Aspirant21:
I see the above as being for low and medium COL areas. High COL areas get a pretty small base bump, which nowhere near covers the spread between say, houston and NYC, so you're better off in a low COL area from a pure savings perspective. Things such as networking opportunities and social scene can be the areas that help offset it.

The ranges aren't low, IME, for even NYC. It's more dependant on what company than it is on what area you live in. A manufacturing or healthcare company outside NYC will absolutely be in those ranges. But MSFT is going to offer you more than that because the Tech industry is higher paying.
4/28/11

I agree that company has more influence than location - though what I was addressing was that for the same company, the salaries vary a bit depending on location. My company actually has slightly different salary bands depending on medium or high COL areas.

4/28/11

Aspirant21:
I agree - what I was addressing was that for the same company, the salaries vary a bit depending on location. My company actually has slightly different salary bands depending on medium or high COL areas.

O ya, absolutely agree. My company starts program participants in 3 different locations and there is about a 5k difference between the first two and the one that is in a major metro area. Not nearly enough to make up for the fact that I pay 1600 in rent instead of 800 and that everything (bars/groceries/etc) is more expensive. But it is nice that if you move to a role in another location for one of your rotations you can pocket a huge difference for that time.
4/28/11

Exactly right. I'm in a very low cost area and the salary makes it look pretty nice.

4/28/11

Just curious how do you think the pay at a company like disney would compare??

4/28/11

csulcy:

Just curious how do you think the pay at a company like disney would compare??

I would expect it to be at the mid-high end.

4/28/11

depends on your experience...but disney tends to pay lower than average

4/28/11

I presume you're only talking about base salary. Add options and restricted (usually received at Manager and higher levels), then total income is a lot higher. Get lucky and accumulate a lot of stock at a fast growing company and you'll retire a lot earlier than you think.

4/28/11

blackcleo:

I presume you're only talking about base salary. Add options and restricted (usually received at Manager and higher levels), then total income is a lot higher. Get lucky and accumulate a lot of stock at a fast growing company and you'll retire a lot earlier than you think.

Agreed. This listing is strictly base, and the options, bonus, etc at manager and above can be a lot more.

4/28/11

Are options common at the Manager-level at the companies you work at? Any insight into the value or structure?

4/28/11

What bonus?

4/28/11

Our Analysts typically get between $3K - $10k, depending on level and rank.

4/28/11

The likelihood of going CF ---> PE/VC/HF is almost non-existent. I mean, the likelihood of going BB to a good PE/VC/HF is not that good. But if it does happen it is almost always someone from a place like Apple or Facebook. The likelihood of going CF ---> IBD is better, still not very good. This movement happens more the other way around.

And yes the earnings gap widens at more senior levels. But, again, 90% of IBD analysts won't make a senior level in IBD/PE/VC they will move on to other things anyways.

4/28/11

You aren't going to get into PE/HF/VC from Corp Fin unless you transition to Corp Dev (very, very difficult) or become an internal/operations guy that happens to perform well within a portfolio company.

The gap widens, considerably b/c of the bonus structure. That being said, if you make it to SVP or the C-Suite, you'll be fine.

4/28/11

peinvestor2012:

You aren't going to get into PE/HF/VC from Corp Fin unless you transition to Corp Dev (very, very difficult) or become an internal/operations guy that happens to perform well within a portfolio company.

The gap widens, considerably b/c of the bonus structure. That being said, if you make it to SVP or the C-Suite, you'll be fine.

lol, high 6 and 7-8 figures respectively is simply "fine".

4/28/11

Aspirant21:

peinvestor2012:

You aren't going to get into PE/HF/VC from Corp Fin unless you transition to Corp Dev (very, very difficult) or become an internal/operations guy that happens to perform well within a portfolio company.

The gap widens, considerably b/c of the bonus structure. That being said, if you make it to SVP or the C-Suite, you'll be fine.

lol, high 6 and 7-8 figures respectively is simply "fine".

I meant "fine" as in he shouldn't worry. Shit, I'd take that all day long.

4/28/11

I've wondered about this myself since much of the focus in these forums seems to be around entry level salaries. If you took a group of people who started in CF and a group who started in IBD, I'd be curious to see the comparison mid-career (age 40-45). What percent in CF are making C-suite or VP compared to those in IBD who make it to the top, avg salaries of the 2 groups, turnover, etc.

4/28/11

Shortwork:

Hi Everyone,

So I think you can get a good idea of the short-term salary differences between corporate finance and other finance areas (namely IBD) through past threads, but I am curious about how this plays out long-term. It seems as if the salary gap between them increases significantly over time?

The main thing I am wondering is, if one were to start out in corporate finance will that be an immediate limitation on earnings potential? For example, would it still be possible to transition to a post-IBD job (PE, HF, VC, etc.) from corporate finance if someone found themselves stuck/limited/unfulfilled working in a F500 role?

As others have said, going corporate finance (I'm thinking treasury, FP&A, accounting) to PE is impossible, corporate finance to IBD very very unlikely. The only guys that can make the corporate > PE transition are the senior operations guys - PE firms might bring them on to source deals in their sector or help out with portfolio companies. The finance guys are perceived as essentially back office and get left in the dust.

There's a big difference in earnings throughout the career. The only guy in most general corporations (there are a few exceptions) that's going to make close or more than a senior PE guy at a decent fund is the CEO. And the CEO has to work YEARS before the big payouts start happening. Until then, it's 2-3% salary increases per year. On the flip side, most associates at big PE funds make more than everyone but the CEO (including the CFO), and they can look forward to 50% - 100% bumps every few years.

You basically have to look at finance pay as a freak anomaly. Real businesses can't pay out like that.

4/28/11

While what others here have said may be true for geographical areas like NYC, my experience is slightly different. While it is not the standard career path to go from corporate finance to private equity, it is not unheard of. At the higher levels of corporate finance (controller/director/VP/CFO), you will often be deeply involved with the company's strategic decisions, which you can use to move into PE if you play your cards right. What I typically see is someone in the upper management finance ranks at a smaller company (i.e. not typically F100) join a PE firm that needs their experience or relationships in a certain sector.

However, I've never heard of anyone taking the HF route after corporate finance. A move to investment banking is also not typically a very logical career path. Venture capital types coming from a F500 setting are typically coming from an engineering/product management/operations background, not finance.

4/28/11

Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?

And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?

4/28/11

Shortwork:

Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?

And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?

It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).

Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.

4/28/11

peinvestor2012:

Shortwork:

Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?

And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?

It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).

Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.


It's also worth noting that corporate finance ---> M7 B school seldomly happens. From a good brand name you'll see a decent amount of people go FLDP ---> good B school (Ross, Fuqua, etc) but not generally Harvard/Wharton/Stanford/Booth/etc. And that makes your exit to a top job less likely as well.
4/28/11

AllDay_028:

peinvestor2012:

Shortwork:
Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?
And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?

It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).
Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.

It's also worth noting that corporate finance ---> M7 B school seldomly happens. From a good brand name you'll see a decent amount of people go FLDP ---> good B school (Ross, Fuqua, etc) but not generally Harvard/Wharton/Stanford/Booth/etc. And that makes your exit to a top job less likely as well.

In my limited experience, most CF people that I know don't really seem interested in doing an M7 MBA. It's much more common to complete a Part-Time MBA from whatever decent regional school is around and use that to continue moving up the ladder within the same company. I think there's a self-selection factor here, more than a "CF isn't good enough WE to be competitive for Harvard even with good stats". Any thoughts?

The last act is tragic, however happy all the rest of the play is; at the last a little earth is thrown upon our head, and that is the end for ever.

4/28/11

ARMMonkey:

In my limited experience, most CF people that I know don't really seem interested in doing an M7 MBA. It's much more common to complete a Part-Time MBA from whatever decent regional school is around and use that to continue moving up the ladder within the same company. I think there's a self-selection factor here, more than a "CF isn't good enough WE to be competitive for Harvard even with good stats". Any thoughts?

CF alone isn't going to be good enough experience. However, if you put in say 4 years at Google CF, start a successful nonprofit, and score a 750 on your GMAT, you probably have a decent chance. Also depends on undergrad stats, too.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

AllDay_028:

peinvestor2012:

Shortwork:
Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?
And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?

It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).
Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.

It's also worth noting that corporate finance ---> M7 B school seldomly happens. From a good brand name you'll see a decent amount of people go FLDP ---> good B school (Ross, Fuqua, etc) but not generally Harvard/Wharton/Stanford/Booth/etc. And that makes your exit to a top job less likely as well.

Wrong. I know at least 8 people from a few brand name F500 fldps that are going to M7. Including HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, and Booth.

4/28/11

AsianMonky:

AllDay_028:

peinvestor2012:

Shortwork:
Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?
And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?
It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).
Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.

It's also worth noting that corporate finance ---> M7 B school seldomly happens. From a good brand name you'll see a decent amount of people go FLDP ---> good B school (Ross, Fuqua, etc) but not generally Harvard/Wharton/Stanford/Booth/etc. And that makes your exit to a top job less likely as well.

Wrong. I know at least 8 people from a few brand name F500 fldps that are going to M7. Including HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, and Booth.

He said generally, there's a good chance you just know some high performers in the right jobs.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

D M:

AsianMonky:

AllDay_028:

peinvestor2012:
Shortwork:
Thanks for the very informative responses. Just to clarify, would you be able to make one of these transitions by going to a top business school?
And, if not, does going through an MBA program help with corporate finance career progression?
It depends. You really need some type of transaction experience along with the MBA (even if SA).
Yes on the MBA w/corporate finance progression.
It's also worth noting that corporate finance ---> M7 B school seldomly happens. From a good brand name you'll see a decent amount of people go FLDP ---> good B school (Ross, Fuqua, etc) but not generally Harvard/Wharton/Stanford/Booth/etc. And that makes your exit to a top job less likely as well.

Wrong. I know at least 8 people from a few brand name F500 fldps that are going to M7. Including HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, and Booth.

He said generally, there's a good chance you just know some high performers in the right jobs.

That is not true. Too small of a sample. Few of the people I know that are going to M7 from F500 went to complete non-target as well. I remember someone here saying that it may be easier to get into a M7 from a solid FLDP rather than IBD, due to the competition.

4/28/11

AsianMonky:

That is not true. Too small of a sample. Few of the people I know that are going to M7 from F500 went to complete non-target as well. I remember someone here saying that it may be easier to get into a M7 from a solid FLDP rather than IBD, due to the competition.

Let's look at Harvard's incoming class profile: http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/admission-requir...

Take out VC/PE/Gov/NGO/Consult/Mil/FinSvc, that's 62% of the class right there. I highly doubt the rest of the people coming in are from corpfin. And even if you have 50 people coming from corporate finance, that's a tiny amount compared to the amount of people working in corpfin right now.

I'd disagree with his language, but the idea was right: corpfin is not a great route to get into M7. Or, if you go that route, you best do something incredible on the side.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

The gold standard here is Poets & Quants feeder company listings. Just google "poets and quants [school name] feeder companies". Some common names are Google, Microsoft, Proctor & Gamble, Caribou Coffee, Kraft Foods, and oil companies. Poets and Quants doesn't specifically say that these people are from corporate finance, but it is pretty likely a good portion of them are (although many will be from product management roles).

4/28/11

The language isn't wrong. It's highly company dependent. Generally, though, you don't see it. I don't care who you know, look at class profiles and work in industry and you'll understand.

4/28/11

AllDay_028:

The language isn't wrong. It's highly company dependent. Generally, though, you don't see it. I don't care who you know, look at class profiles and work in industry and you'll understand.

And I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about, so go with what this guy says

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

A lot of F500 FLDP's don't go to a top full time MBA because they don't want to, not necessarily because they "can't". I was a FLDP and had a solid gmat score, but my employer offered to pay 100 percent of tuition costs if I went part time, so I picked the best PT program in the area. You'd have to land a pretty phenomenal post MBA job to make up for 2 yrs of lost salary plus the program cost, not to mention lost promotion opportunities if you kept working.

My point is that just looking at backgrounds of top MBA students is not the best indicator of a FLDP's chances of getting in. Most FLDP's are with companies that pay for MBA's and they don't need to go to a top program to move up the ranks, but I don't see why an FLDP with a high GMAT who wants to go to a M7 would not have a decent shot of getting in.

4/28/11

Industry84:

A lot of F500 FLDP's don't go to a top full time MBA because they don't want to, not necessarily because they "can't". I was a FLDP and had a solid gmat score, but my employer offered to pay 100 percent of tuition costs if I went part time, so I picked the best PT program in the area. You'd have to land a pretty phenomenal post MBA job to make up for 2 yrs of lost salary plus the program cost, not to mention lost promotion opportunities if you kept working.

My point is that just looking at backgrounds of top MBA students is not the best indicator of a FLDP's chances of getting in. Most FLDP's are with companies that pay for MBA's and they don't need to go to a top program to move up the ranks, but I don't see why an FLDP with a high GMAT who wants to go to a M7 would not have a decent shot of getting in.

Thanks for the input. I'm curious, at your company did doing a part-time MBA make you eligible for post-MBA dev programs?

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

D M:

Industry84:

A lot of F500 FLDP's don't go to a top full time MBA because they don't want to, not necessarily because they "can't". I was a FLDP and had a solid gmat score, but my employer offered to pay 100 percent of tuition costs if I went part time, so I picked the best PT program in the area. You'd have to land a pretty phenomenal post MBA job to make up for 2 yrs of lost salary plus the program cost, not to mention lost promotion opportunities if you kept working.
My point is that just looking at backgrounds of top MBA students is not the best indicator of a FLDP's chances of getting in. Most FLDP's are with companies that pay for MBA's and they don't need to go to a top program to move up the ranks, but I don't see why an FLDP with a high GMAT who wants to go to a M7 would not have a decent shot of getting in.

Thanks for the input. I'm curious, at your company did doing a part-time MBA make you eligible for post-MBA dev programs?

I checked with the program manager and he said internal candidates who did part time MBA's are considered as long as they have been identified as top performers in their current jobs. They use the MBA development program as an executive team feeder and plan on the people being future VP's, GM's, etc.

4/28/11

Industry84:

I checked with the program manager and he said internal candidates who did part time MBA's are considered as long as they have been identified as top performers in their current jobs. They use the MBA development program as an executive team feeder and plan on the people being future VP's, GM's, etc.

That's awesome! Thanks a ton, SB for ya

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

My company also does the part time reimbursement. I just think i'll end up trying to go full time because I want to get completely out of CF. That said, there are obviously some brand names that I don't see any reason you wouldn't have a decent shot at M7. But for the vast majority of the F500 that isn't the case.

I also kind of disagree that most people do part time because they want to stay and move up. FLDP programs aren't the target for a lot of people, they use them as backups and they spend a lot of time trying to find a way into something they deem more lucrative. Often they see B school as the possibility of this but they don't get into the top B school programs so they ultimately make the choice to stay, but that's more out of being "stuck" in CF than anything else.

Again, there are exceptions and this is highly company dependent, but it's seemingly true for most.

4/28/11

I see your point, but even in a situation where someone wants to get out of CF altogether, do you think going to a part time program eliminates that possibility? I know it would be more difficult but more and more well ranked schools are offering part time options (i believe Wharton and Chicago have them)

This obviously depends on the school and the post MBA job the person is after, but curious on your thoughts.

4/28/11

Industry84:

I see your point, but even in a situation where someone wants to get out of CF altogether, do you think going to a part time program eliminates that possibility? I know it would be more difficult but more and more well ranked schools are offering part time options (i believe Wharton and Chicago have them)

This obviously depends on the school and the post MBA job the person is after, but curious on your thoughts.

I'm going to offer my thoughts from information given to me by others (since I don't have any experience in this):

-Changing industry OR company AND changing job function at the same time, go full-time.
-Changing job function at same company, part-time may be okay, talk to your superiors and people in department you're interested in/HR.
-Changing company with same function, depends, but part-time is probably okay.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

Industry84:

I see your point, but even in a situation where someone wants to get out of CF altogether, do you think going to a part time program eliminates that possibility? I know it would be more difficult but more and more well ranked schools are offering part time options (i believe Wharton and Chicago have them)

This obviously depends on the school and the post MBA job the person is after, but curious on your thoughts.


I don't think part time completely takes out that responsibility, but it disallows you from having a lot of the same networking possibilities and in a lot of places the schools are requiring that you disclose you are part time or not allowing PT students to do the same OCR. I actually think that thought is spreading ATM because of the fact that the PT programs are easier to get into and many/most of the PT students are getting reimbursement and then bolting.

You also have the issue of going PT and then not being able to do a summer job. Most of the firms will hire from the summer interns and if you are PT you can't really take a summer job unless you have some way to pay for school and living outside of loans (PT loans won't cover you enough to live off just loans). So you are at a disadvantage there as well. It's just seemingly easier to make a career switch or even an industry switch by going FT.

4/28/11

Higher by the hour than IB. In some cases, you actually get to do more real finance. However, all you get to crunch numbers on is your own company and the long term pay prospects are much lower.

4/28/11

can you elaborate a little on your answer?
i know salary might vary depending on the industry/location, etc but what do you mean the long term prospects are lower? what if i plan on leaving after 2-3 years for an mba, is that something encouraged or normal for these jobs?

4/28/11

It varies a lot based on the size of the company and location.What size/ location do you have in mind?

4/28/11

ideally a large metropolitan area, preferably in the east coast. the company matters more than the geographical region though, i'm looking at consumer goods companies like p&g, l'oreal, jnj

4/28/11

dinomonster:

can you elaborate a little on your answer?

i know salary might vary depending on the industry/location, etc but what do you mean the long term prospects are lower? what if i plan on leaving after 2-3 years for an mba, is that something encouraged or normal for these jobs?

In corp finance it seems like most people get their cpa while working or go for a part-time mba 3-5 years in.

4/28/11

dinomonster:

ideally a large metropolitan area, preferably in the east coast. the company matters more than the geographical region though, i'm looking at consumer goods companies like p&g, l'oreal, jnj

Hmmm hard to say. I'd say 45-60K base with a 2-5K sign on bonus and probably a possible year end bonus in the range of 10% depending on structure of company and performance. This would be for one of those big companies. I don't have any experience with consumer goods corp finance so I've just guessing based off of my knowledge of Chicago area based F500s. Are you looking at a rotation leadership program or just a entry level position? Rotationals often have relocation bonuses as well.

4/28/11

i'm more interested in a regular entry level position but reading some threads on this site has been triggering some interest towards rotationals as well.

thanks for all your answers btw - i'm a real newbie, as you can tell, when it comes to all these different jobs/employment

4/28/11

dinomonster:

i'm more interested in a regular entry level position but reading some threads on this site has been triggering some interest towards rotationals as well.

thanks for all your answers btw - i'm a real newbie, as you can tell, when it comes to all these different jobs/employment

Ok. The numbers I gave were for rotationals. Ask any questions you have.

4/28/11

would the numbers for a normal entry position be similar? i know it's not good to focus too much just on the numbers, but definitely something to consider with student loans to pay off..

4/28/11

This is all anecdotal, but...

Salary for a program like J&J's FLDP (which is up there with GE's FMP) will likely start around $50-60k. J&J's normal FA's start at like 45, I believe. They also offer a one-time 5% salary increase if you earn your CPA or CMA during the program. This is the only program I know of that does this, and it's pretty badass.

Also, check out the Corporate Corral (and The Other Road, to a lesser extent). There's a lot of general information on finance development programs (FLDP/FMP/FLP etc).

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

dinomonster:

would the numbers for a normal entry position be similar? i know it's not good to focus too much just on the numbers, but definitely something to consider with student loans to pay off..

I'm not entirely sure. I would assume the top of the base range would be lower and there may not be a signing bonus.

4/28/11

Well, if you're getting under $100k/year, it's probably not a great position. In all honesty, it's hard to say. The more experience you have, the less standard pay packages become. You also have 2 years banking exp and your JD (assuming from a good program), further complicating things. If I were to take a COMPLETE shot in the dark, I'd say around $130-170k, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher than that...

Also have to take into account different industries pay differently, and companies definitely have varying payscales. I don't think you'll find anyone that can give you a good idea of what to expect, though some of the CD guys on here might be able to give you a better rough estimate than I have.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

4/28/11

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate your thoughts.

I guess the most analogous comparison to this situation would be a post-MBA IBD associate or VP switching over to corporate development at a client. If it makes any difference, my JD is from a top 5 school and I went to a "target" undergrad. I'm at a top regional firm that's well respected within my particular industry and region, but not necessarily on a national scale (e.g. I'm not at Cravath or Skadden)

4/28/11

My guess would be somewhere around $140K for a Manager title at a F500 (plus bonus and stock options). Like DM said, it's all variable depending on industry and location.

"Once bread becomes toast, it can never go back."

4/28/11

HashtagCorpDev:

My guess would be somewhere around $140K for a Manager title at a F500 (plus bonus and stock options). Like DM said, it's all variable depending on industry and location.

Any idea on the range of values for the non-salary portions of the pay package?

4/28/11

I would estimate it to be 10-15% of your salary in cash bonus with another 10-15% in equity.

"Once bread becomes toast, it can never go back."

4/28/11

All of the above is generally correct in my experience. The corp dev group is typically paid a little better than FP&A. I wouldn't imagine that your stats matter all that much for pay, they will only help you get the job. If they were coming to you that might be a different stroy. The stock options at manager are probably pretty close to the above, I've seen stock closer to 30% of salary as you get closer to director.

I know next to nothing about law hours, but I think the general model is work a million hours to make parter for a long term gain. Corp dev is much easier hours 50-60, but there is no serious financial upside.

4/28/11

Just to add to the chorus here - think the above sounds about right for the most part. Here's another data point:

-Small-ish industrial company (Rev - Base $110K - $120K
- Cash Bonus - 15% - 20%
- No stock

4/28/11

Would it be better to say, to go along with your response of that your confidentiality agreement doesn't allow you to say your exact pay structure, but to also say something along the lines of,
blahblahcant't say my exact amountblahblah "but, at the current market rate for this type of position of 125k base and 20% bonus, I am underpaid a little bit" This way they know that you're underpaid, and will likely accept market rate and not a premium like you are trying to get at.

make it hard to spot the general by working like a soldier

4/28/11

Skinnayyy:

... but, at the current market rate for this type of position of 125k base and 20% bonus, I am underpaid ...

Good point. Make sure you tell them that you know that you are underpaid.

4/28/11

I remember the original thread and am glad you decided to let us know about this response from a hiring manager (SB'ed). I plan to switch jobs in a few months so this is very helpful.

I have had one experience of a similar kind (everywhere else I was given market rate) and ended up not taking that offer because it seemed like the HR wanted to make transaction out of it by squeezing me out when it really is a relationship. I got my current job a little later and I am glad I did not take the earlier one (didn't like the strong-arming; also would have had to move to SF from NY)

Here is what I think you should do: Think of the package (brand value, greater responsibilities, compensation: cash,kind & stock) as a whole:
Is it reasonably better that what you have right now?
How many other opportunities can you hope to land in the next 1-2 months (coz job search burnout can happen after that)?
How better off after a year would you be if you took this job vs. staying where you are?
How aligned is it to your long term goal vs. the current job?

If this job is reasonably better than your current job and is the best you have right now - possibly for the next few months - go for it. You can switch after a year to an even better position.
I just ask that you negotiate the hell out with the HR manager and get AT LEAST a 20% increase - he himself said that (start negotiating at 25%)

4/28/11

Thanks for posting.

This is why it always annoys me when people tell you not to complain about raises in earlier years because it's 'not that much difference.' That difference compounds and follows you to the ends of the earth.

4/28/11

Thanks for following up with this post. Are you actually expecting an employer is going to give you a 60% raise?

It sounds like your best bet is to move into a role that has more advancement opportunities to eventually get into your desired salary range.

4/28/11

My point of view is why should I take a job that pays $110k a year if I am clearly qualified to work in a job that pays $125k? Even if it is a 60% increase above where I'm at now, I feel that's irrelevant.

I was contacted by a different recruiter this week who said "I have a strong recommendation from a former colleague of yours for a job with a $130k base and 30% bonus", so I know I am qualified to get the jobs that pay 60%+ more than my current pay.

My point is why should I take a new job making less than what I'm worth simply because I'm underpaid in my current role?

4/28/11

F500Guy:

My point of view is why should I take a job that pays $110k a year if I am clearly qualified to work in a job that pays $125k? Even if it is a 60% increase above where I'm at now, I feel that's irrelevant.

I was contacted by a different recruiter this week who said "I have a strong recommendation from a former colleague of yours for a job with a $130k base and 30% bonus", so I know I am qualified to get the jobs that pay 60%+ more than my current pay.

My point is why should I take a new job making less than what I'm worth simply because I'm underpaid in my current role?

I would seriously ask this question to the recruiter - on the phone, not via e-mail (so you can handle his reaction & still take things forward) - in the most polite words I can find.

4/28/11

What are you basing your assertion off of? Is it that colleague or something like glassdoor or Nace?

A finance manager at Amex makes 100k all in, Microsoft 111k all in. So depending on your years of experience and how big your company is and where you are located you may be underpaid. But the comp you are describing is for a senior finance manager. Taking Microsoft as an example again, your requested base is at their highest end of reported salaries for a senior finance manager and the comp you are shooting for is well above their average.

There might be a communication error as to what you do, but otherwise you are looking for a promotion and above market pay for that promotion. The question is, are you actually worth that much based on actual salary information with a decent sample size?

4/28/11

ArcherVice:

What are you basing your assertion off of? Is it that colleague or something like glassdoor or Nace?

A finance manager at Amex makes 100k all in, Microsoft 111k all in. So depending on your years of experience and how big your company is and where you are located you may be underpaid. But the comp you are describing is for a senior finance manager. Taking Microsoft as an example again, your requested base is at their highest end of reported salaries for a senior finance manager and the comp you are shooting for is well above their average.

There might be a communication error as to what you do, but otherwise you are looking for a promotion and above market pay for that promotion. The question is, are you actually worth that much based on actual salary information with a decent sample size?

I'm basing my assertion off the fact that I've been contacted by 8-10 different headhunters over the last six months who have all asked me if I'm interested in roles that pay a base salary between $120k and $140k. Most of these roles have responsibilities that are virtually identical to what I do now. I was a bit vague with my description of what I do, but I don't feel I'm overestimating my market value if I have recruiters emailing me weekly about jobs that pay in that range.

4/28/11

If they are contacting you with offers between 120-140, why have you not accepted any of those roles rather than continue to make 93k where you are at?

If they are emailing you weekly, I am now very confused at your course of action (staying where you are clearly undervalued) and more so at the point of your post. Why would your current salary matter if they are contacting you with an offer at a given comp level?

Clearly I'm not understanding your posts or focal point of your consternation, I blame the internets.

4/28/11

ArcherVice:

If they are contacting you with offers between 120-140, why have you not accepted any of those roles rather than continue to make 93k where you are at?

If they are emailing you weekly, I am now very confused at your course of action (staying where you are clearly undervalued) and more so at the point of your post. Why would your current salary matter if they are contacting you with an offer at a given comp level?

Clearly I'm not understanding your posts or focal point of your consternation, I blame the internets.

I'll give you an example of a recent conversation I had with a recruiter:

Recruiter: Hi, I'm working on filling a position with company X and your background is a strong match for the requirements of the role. The target base salary range for the position is $125k to $135k. Are you interested?
Me: That's very similar to what I do in my current role and I'm interested in the job. Lets move forward.
Recruiter: Great. What salary are you making now at your current company?
Me: I make $93k with no bonus
Recruiter: Oh....I don't think I can get you $125k if you're only making $93k now. The company has a different position that pays up to $110k that I may be able to recommend you for though.

Here's another example. A recruiter emails out a list of available jobs with salary ranges and I notice one of the jobs is very comparable to what I do now and pays $130k, so I decide to email the recruiter back.

Me: Hey, I'm interested in X job with company Y that pays $130k per year.
Recruiter: Great, it looks like you have good work experience and you would be a great potential fit for the role. What is your current salary?
Me: I'm at a salary of $93k
Recruiter: Oh, companies will typically only give new hires a 10% to 20% raise off of where they are now, so I can't get you anywhere close to $130k. I can probably get you around $107k at most.

4/28/11

Why don't you just say 'I'm expecting about $125K this year'. If you're early in your career, the percentage increase is generally pretty large, so what you made last year doesn't matter compared to what you're giving up this year by leaving. You should be expecting an increase at your level.

4/28/11

DickFuld:

Why don't you just say 'I'm expecting about $125K this year'. If you're early in your career, the percentage increase is generally pretty large, so what you made last year doesn't matter compared to what you're giving up this year by leaving. You should be expecting an increase at your level.

Good advice.

Recruiters are playing hardball and trying to peg you at a rate before even evaluating you. I think this is wrong.

I would do this:

1. State your desired range first and then reluctantly accept the 10-20% expected bump so the head hunter forwards your resume

2. If the company finally gives you an offer. Restate your actual desired salary (60% bump) again

3. When they ask why you accepted the 10-20% range earlier simply say that "During the interview process I have learnt more about the responsibilities expected from me. Based on this newly acquired knowledge I find XYZ to be fair compensation. The fact that XYZ is the current market rate for this role also attests to this fact."

4. At this point the company, HR and head hunter have invested a significant amount of time and energy in you. You already have met the team you would work for and they obviously like you. Nobody wants to do this all over again. If the HR fucks up the hiring now it would be counted against them - especially when your ask was within market rate. This is where you can get to (I imagine) between 40-60% bump instead of the 10-20% depending on how well you negotiate/how much they want you/etc.

Keep us posted on what you did and what worked. 'very interested in this topic. Thanks!

4/28/11

Just because a headhunter is pitching you on these types of jobs doesn't mean you are at all qualified. The HH is looking through their file and saying "this looks like it might be a fit, here's the salary range, can I submit your resume?"

And don't forget that the HH doesn't work for you, they work for the company that is hiring. They want to get an applicant to sign an offer and deliver value to the client.

They do not want to send an applicant in who will get to the end of the process and then gum everything up with unrealistic expectations.

4/28/11

grosse:

Just because a headhunter is pitching you on these types of jobs doesn't mean you are at all qualified. The HH is looking through their file and saying "this looks like it might be a fit, here's the salary range, can I submit your resume?"

And don't forget that the HH doesn't work for you, they work for the company that is hiring. They want to get an applicant to sign an offer and deliver value to the client.

They do not want to send an applicant in who will get to the end of the process and then gum everything up with unrealistic expectations.

I understand that, but if it's a role where the scope and scale of the position is very similar to what I do now and I meet all of the required and preferred qualifications on the job posting, then I would say that I am indeed qualified.

You are correct that the headhunter does not work for the candidate, and that is precisely why I am having this problem and that is why many people on this forum will likely have this same problem at some point in their careers. The headhunters want to get talent for the company as cheaply as they can because it makes them look good and helps them to get repeat business with the client. My overall point with this post is that someone's current salary should not be a factor in determining their new salary when that person is switching companies. Salary should be determined based on the candidate's education, experience, ability to do the job, and the market pay for the role.

4/28/11

F500Guy:

not to mention that some clients will not even consider an initial interview without knowing current salary."

Sounds like this is a head hunter/not a hiring company HR. I guess you could tell your compensation but 'would still recommend stressing that you are underpaid and that is one factor driving your job search.

4/28/11

So if your base is $80,000 and bonus is 10,000. When looking for jobs do recruiters base that 10-20% bump off of your salary of 80k or your all-in comp of 90k?

4/28/11

CuriousAnalyst:

So if your base is $80,000 and bonus is 10,000. When looking for jobs do recruiters base that 10-20% bump off of your salary of 80k or your all-in comp of 90k?

Does it matter? The difference is 2K (16k vs 18k) if you assume a 20% bump. I would focus more on maximizing the % bump (lower end is 10%) instead of whether the bonus amt is included in this situation.

4/28/11

True but I think @"CuriousAnalyst" is on to a good point. Let us say your base is $80k and your bonus is $25k for all in comp of $115 a year. A 20% in base alone means nothing if you do not now the bonus structure of the new firm. For example, if the new firm bonus equates to half of the bonus you would have made at previous firm for equal work product, your all in comp would be lower $80k*1.2 + $25k/2 and so you would have lost money in the move.

4/28/11

Good point.

The simple answer is throw in the base, bonus, stock options ,etc. - all in - and then apply the bump to that.

The more realistic answer is that the bonus & other performance reward amounts are indicative and not guaranteed - so you cannot be absolutely sure that you will get it for sure. But on the other hand pushing for a high base might limit your bonus irrespective of how much amazing work you do. This is why it is a range (10-20%) as opposed to a fixed number

4/28/11

Just tell them what it would take you to move or what you 'expect' to make this year (at a rate you like) and you don't have to worry about lying about your current salary or making up some story about some fake confidentiality agreement.

4/28/11

DickFuld:

Just tell them what it would take you to move or what you 'expect' to make this year (at a rate you like) and you don't have to worry about lying about your current salary or making up some story about some fake confidentiality agreement.

The problem with this is as soon as I tell this guy what I make, he will say he can only get me 20% more so I've essentially just anchored myself. It feels like the only way out is not telling him my pay or lying.

4/28/11

@MBA_Junkie: I don't think, companies would zero down on only one candidate for selection. They keep range of people and start doling out offers in the order of their preference. So if someone throws a figure of 60% at the last minute vis-a-vis a figure of 20% during the initial rounds, in all probability they will move to their 2nd choice of candidate.

4/28/11

techiee:

@MBA_Junkie: I don't think, companies would zero down on only one candidate for selection. They keep range of people and start doling out offers in the order of their preference. So if someone throws a figure of 60% at the last minute vis-a-vis a figure of 20% during the initial rounds, in all probability they will move to their 2nd choice of candidate.

Maybe... maybe not. Here's the thing.

I have seen people negotiate higher salaries on full time offers given in college - where most people simply do not think that negotiating is acceptable. In all fairness, they asked and got up to 10% higher than the original offer - not even close to the 60% we are talking about here.

Besides, if one of the biggest drivers behind me looking for a new job is a higher (read competitive) salary. I can do one of 2 things:

1. Not take any offer that gives me less than 60% bump. If you don't want to do point no. 2. This is your only option

2. Take the 20% bump. Stay there a year or so. Get the bonus. Get the typical 3% raise. Then switch again. A quick back of the envelope calculation (i mean unformatted excel) shows that you can break even w.r.t. approach no 1 in 3 switches if you do this every year (total ~3 years) or every 2 years (total ~6 years)

I have been involved in hiring at my previous employers and my take is that if they decided to offer you first and the HR pulls back simply because of the salary - that too market rate, the manager of the team you were to join (not HR) would rip the HR person a new one.
The person benefitting most from your lower salary is the HR - because your lower salary => higher bonus for him/her. I guess your lower salary would also be good for the manager of the team you would join because you would take less from the budget but any manager worth working for has no issues paying market rate.

4/28/11

Solid post, but I was always under the impression that a HR person's bonus is based on how much they are able to get you, such that the higher comp package they get you, the better bonus they get. If this is the case, then HR has to balance trying to get you a higher comp with making sure that comp can be accepted by management. This may be where a recruiter may say no early because they know they wont be able to get anywhere near the comp you are looking for. Do the managers that approve the salaries receive information about candidate's current comp? If not, I do not see why a manager would be against giving a candidate market rate and further I do not see why a recruiter would not seek to get you market as the higher they can get you, the better their bonus is.

4/28/11

decent

4/28/11

F500 is always little brother to investment banking/management side of finance

4/28/11

k

4/28/11

If you are going to a very low cost of living area, somewhere that doesn't have a major metro city nearby, you might be expected to take a pay cut. I think you are looking more for a city like Atlanta, Charlotte, or Detroit though, where it is a major city and the cost of living is low. In that case, do not take a pay cut. They will pay a comparable rate. Even in New York you will see comparable F500 CF salaries, even though rent costs double what it costs in these other cities.

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"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

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