I'm a freshman interested in trading and I had a few questions about performance when you first get a full time job as a trader at a BB.
On average what % returns does a trader make in a year?
Do they fire you only if you make losses or even if your gains are minuscule?
How long do they allow you to be in the red before they fire you?
Do you find that your returns increased with experience or if you are shit at trading from the get go, you will always be shit?
Thanks a lot
At a BB you do not get paid a % of p&l. You will get paid a discretionary bonus--basically the minimum amount your MD thinks will deter you from joining a competitor.
Both, obviously if you lose money you put yourself at risk of unemployment. Also, if you do not contribute towards generating trading profits after a period of time then they have many more candidates dying to get their shot.
Depending on the firm, people understand that there is a learning curve and that a new trader will (not if) lose money and usually there is a grace period.
Remember that trading for a bank is not like day-trading stocks for your personal account. In the latter you are essentially gambling, in the former you are the casino.
nailed it.
Thanks a lot for your response.
Approximately how long do you think this grace period is? I remember reading that sometimes the managers won't let the analyst trade with real money for up to six months, so would an year or two be a good estimate?
being an idiot
not showing up
giving your MD aids
Taking a run at your boss's wife/girlfriend/mistress/daughter usually does the trick.
Daughter is probably the safest bet. Specially if she's under 18.
also, if your program has 1 year rotations, do you think the desk heads will let you trade during that period?
I would hope so... or else it would be 3 years until you've done anything.
The grace periode at our firm (a MM) is 18 months.
You start out slow, watching a more experienced trader and getting the hang of the trading software. Maybe even place a couple of trades a day for a month. Then you get to place more, but smaller orders. For me, it took a while to hit the execution button and not doubt myself with a sizable order.
I still remember my first order coming in, Buy 200k BAC @ market. Typing in the ticker, volume and setting the execution type took maybe 10 seconds, but hitting the execution button took a few more seconds. All kinds of thoughts went through my head; 'Did I hear it right? Was it a buy or a sell order? Was it at market? Crap, that's a lot of money....' etc. Hit Enter twice and yelled out '200k BAC done @ 16.21' and got a 'Thank you' in return.
At my firm it might take as much as a year before you get to move away from the experienced traders and being placed somewhere near the desk of sales guys you are working with.
Disclaimer: This is from the point of view of an equity trader. If you've seen any Wall Street movies with scenes from the trading floor shouting 'Buy/Sell X amount of Y'. I'm the guy they're shouting at.
Thanks for your response. How do the salaries of an agency trader straight of out of university compare with those a prop trader (assuming an average one because the top ones probably skew the range)?
How long is a rubber band? There are too many variables to answer that question. Is it a BB, MM or a boutique? Covering European, Asian, EM, Middle Eastern, North American markets or a combination? Equities, commodities, derivatives, FX, etc. (with all the sub groups)? Same questions goes for the prop trader.
It is two different jobs. It is like comparing civil to structural engineering. Same, but different.
In my case I had a base of 60k and a bonus of 30k in the first year. But, that is many moons ago and times are changing. That is the best answer I can give you.
PS: Feel free to make it rain silver bananas on marcellus_wallace. He gave some great insight.
It takes a lot as a junoir trader to get fired. Likewise your bonus is capped. The amount of time and resources to train someone to sit in a seat is not cheap so to churn and burn them. I am strictly talking once you get a seat, before that as an analyst you could be moved or canned. Really the only case I see a junior guy getting fired is if you "embrass the firm". Be it attitude wise to customers, higher ups or putting on just stupid trades that use up VAR or basically make you blow up.
Even if you blow up, but you have good reasonings behind your VAR, thoughts, execution. Only your bonus will be capped or affected.
A caveat to 9-5. I trade a physical commodity. I remember the first time I worked a big customer order and priced it right, market went in my favor etc...Basically at close I learned I was a moron and asleep and had only hedged half my position, and half was open. Now clearly the trade was already in my favor. But I still panicked and basically lifted stupid offers to kill my day's profit on the trade, but I was so panicked I'd come to work on Monday and the market would go like 4x against me. Now I would never sweat such a thing, but as a first time thing, you really think "shit that is a lot of money I am going to get canned on monday if this blows up".
Btw, lastly I do not believe the prop MBS Boaz Weinstein days exist at all anymore. So taking on stupid VAR early on is really rare or just stupid and if you do that you deserve to get canned.
How to get fired (Originally Posted: 07/03/2012)
A couple days ago someone said how everyone from their graduating class had been fired/laid off. If doing the work is so easy a monkey could do it, what reasons are people being fired for?
What job was it and where?
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/so-basically-everybody-all-my-fri…-
That's the thread I was referring to. What are reasons people get fired for in IB?
Duke at BB banks. ^^ Also, when they lay people off, how do they go about doing it. How systematic is it? Or, do they just convene (MDs/VPs) on who they should let go (under performance)?
Low equity flows, lack of deal execution, shit economy, new class (cheaper analysts) coming, etc. In the end of the day this is a business and if you have a negative IRR your being axed regardless of hierarchy or how cheap you are to them.
So more to do with things outside your control than just fucking up on a project?
If you're a crap analyst then yeah your gonna get fired but when an entire class gets the axe then its more to do with outside forces.
One of them probably took a shit on Debra's desk... like a boss
also interested...I hear the same is true with MBB
Generally, you need some event that is outside of your control to put you in danger of being fired. As long as you're putting in the effort and doing a reasonable job, you won't be let go. However, once an outside event that necessitates layoffs (such as a slowdown in deal flow) occurs, performance is a factor in determining whether or not you get the axe. Sometimes it is just a matter of bad luck (your entire group gets eliminated), in which case there is almost nothing you can do.
Can I get fired for this? (Originally Posted: 11/16/2013)
I was working on a project last week with a new hire. She was at my terminal doing some excel analysis and I was talking her through what needed to be done. When she couldn't get it, I kind of jabbed her with a foam football that we throw around the office when we have some down time and told her to move over so I could finish it. She yelled "don't hit me, that hurt" quite loudly. I responded with the obvious "it's a foam football, how could that hurt." After giving her some shit, I apologized and we made amends. I brought it up with my boss, who laughed it off, but I'm still worried that someone who heard that will go to HR and get me booted. Any thoughts.
Hard to believe there would be any serious consequences out of this- I feel like if someone reported it there's no way she would say "yeah it really hurt, fire him" but would almost certainly say "it wasn't malicious, firing him would be ridiculous." Just my speculation though, however I really would be shocked if something came of this.
Stop flirting with the new girl and you should be good.
I think the bigger concern here is will you lose access to your foam football privileges...
No, I don't think you don't need to worry...nobody will remember on Monday.
This is why you don't do fuckboy shit like this.
You'll be fine.
Hitting on the new girl? NICE
Yes, there's a chance you will be called into the HR office next week (someone has been strategizing what to say to get you fired this entire weekend - either the girl or someone from the office who doesn't like you) and you could get the boot.
I definitely thought you were gonna say you banged her.
Stop worrying, you didn't touch her, you're fine.
I think you should get fired for NOT sealing the deal.
always.be.closing.
She's the one who needs to be fired in this situation.
It's not that easy to fire someone, especially if you're at any reasonable size firm (layoffs are a separate matter)...unless of course your firm has very strict foam football clauses in its firm-wide policy documentation.
Well you're a dick for having no respect for others' personal boundaries and space, but then again so are most of the people on the trading floor. So it's really her fault, because she should have known that before signing up, and shouldn't be complaining about it now.
You really should have said 'I love you' after you threw the ball at her. So she would be shocked instead of hating you.
You sound like a bitch
If you had to get fired as fast as possible, what would be your go to move? (Originally Posted: 06/19/2014)
Within reason -- can't commit any actual crimes
Quit. Why do you want to have a termination in your past?
Not being an idiot makes too much sense.
call your boss a fag
just quit. why would you want to get fired?
No unemployment?
At the end of the week, walk into your Boss' office and ask for a raise. If he gives you one, in two weeks ask for another... Keep doing this until you are either an MD or get fired.
Genius.
Just get drunk at work. I played that card when I was 16. And if you really wanna troll them, tell them you're an alcoholic and they can't fire you under the ADA and that you're checking into rehab and will see them in a month.
Confess to your boss that you have been tapping his wife and/or daughter. Then proceed to shit on his desk. Will get you fired, and the resulting beating you get will probably yield a nice settlement which you can use to pay the bills until your next job begins. Best of luck!
Just looking for a good laugh gentlemen. This is not a serious thread
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