Other than becoming an expert at excel and powerpoint, what exactly do you learn as an investment banking/M&A analyst? What sort of skill set will you have after two years? Why is it so highly regarded?
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How to take shit; how to game personal expenses; how to copy/paste; how to find/replace; how to spend $35/night on fast food; time management; basic finance concepts
How to work hard, learn that attention to detail is paramount and become an expert in how different industries operate.
To be a workhorse, diligent attention to detail, how to frame/position an idea/thesis/position, moderate financial concepts, excel & powerpoint, how to manage demanding expectations from coworkers, how to perform under intense pressure/scrutiny, how to spot the weakness/strength in each business, the industry you cover/execute deals in....There's obviously more, I don't know what else you're looking for. You'll have a tangible skill set, whether you value it depends on what you want to do in the future and if you can apply it toward your goals.
Very helpful, thanks. Please keep the observations coming- I begin as an IBD analyst next year and am curious to learn more about how analysts develop
Well, you're certainly going to learn how to work/function without sleep. I also agree with Waymon above. The biggest thing I learned as a 1st year Analyst was attention to detail. It will depend upon where you work and for whom you work. But I can remember getting berated early and often until I checked every single detail of anything coming off my desk - especially anything involving an Excel spreadsheet or a presentation. Good luck!
Boutique Investment Bank - Not learning much and no job responsibilities (Originally Posted: 06/10/2016)
I feel as if I'm also completely worthless at the boutique bank I'm working at. I don't even get to help with looking up information on pitchbooks and feel like I provide almost no value. I'm grateful for the opportunity but I feel like there isn't much that I'm really helping out with. The other interns are full time so they actually get some work done early in the morning but by the time I get into the office, I'm just browsing the web and looking at their past pitchbooks. Any other boutique bank interns feel this way? :\
Are you serious? You posted this SAME EXACT THREAD two days ago. You're probably not getting any work because it's fairly obvious that you lack the critical thinking skills necessary of an analyst.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/this-boutique-bank-internship-suc…
EDIT: At the time that I posted this, your other thread is only NINE threads below this.
To fucking photocopy and look up data on google? sure fuck face. Must be real critical.
i like your name biggus dickus
Is IB Really The Best "Learning Experience"? (Originally Posted: 01/21/2013)
Q: So, applicant, why do you want to do investment banking?
A: Well, among other reasons, investment banking is the best learning experience someone with my background can receive right after finishing college. Working 100 hours a week at something for 2 or 3 years is like receiving 5 years of experience in another field.
Oh everyone's favorite answer to the "you're sure to get this question in your IB interview" question of why on earth you want to sign up for this. But is it actually true? Are you getting a better overall learning experience in finance than elsewhere? Everyone always lauds investment banking for the training ground that it provides for Private Equity and Hedge Funds. After 2 or 3 years in IB, kids are sharp at modeling, are near-experts on their respective sectors, and can be thrown into the gauntlet until 4am for two weeks straight without going crazy. That's got to count for a lot, right?
True, for PE, HF, and entrepreneurship (and, somewhat similarly, working at a start-up), doing IB for a few years is probably about as good as it gets. MBB consulting comes close -- especially with respect to start-up work and to a lesser extent private equity -- and Big 4 lags pretty far behind. I think we can all agree that IB gives you a great toolbox for finance.
But for the sake of argument, let's take someone with a computer science background who worked for Microsoft as a software developer for 4 years before deciding to transition to finance through an MBA business schools">M7 MBA.
As a developer, they certainly faced challenging tasks that required much attention to detail, analysis, and interfaced with many groups of people. And if that person is attending an MBA business schools">M7 program, let's also assume that they are among the small subset of programmers who are socially-adroit. Is someone with this background, looking to break into PE or HF post-MBA, going to be less technically-savvy and prepared than a 3-year IBD guy?
Obviously this argument assumes heading to an MBA program for the career switch, but if you take two people who are looking to break into PE, one with 3 years of IB experience and the other with 4 years of Dev experience, I'm not sure that the investment banking experience is strictly better for PE. True, the banker has more modeling experience (though I'd argue it's a different type of modeling, and that the programmer models a ton too), but most things will be taught on-the-job at the beginning to make sure everyone is caught up to speed anyway. The programmer has probably had to grasp more difficult concepts so far in his/her career, and likely has demonstrated a greater aptitude for mathematics than the banker. Attention to detail is extremely important in both roles as well. In every class I've ever taken in my life, there was some kid who was a Math or CS major that absolutely crushed everyone at creative writing or philosophy because, well, he was far smarter than everyone else! This probably can all translate well to PE and HF, right?
What do you guys think? Take two people -- one a career-switcher from software to finance, one a banker, both at MBA business schools">M7 -- which one is better prepared for a career in HF or PE? Obviously the banker has a stronger finance-based network, but does a lot of Excel for 3 years give the banker a substantive edge over someone with a more rigorous quant-based entry-level position?
Thanks for reading.
I completely agree. In my opinion, IB prepares you well for certain paths for exiting (not just PE or HF); however these rigorous IB programs seem to mold analysts for only these paths. While it is certainly easy to imagine a programmer getting an MBA and going into HF or PE (if that is their desire), they also seem to have many more options of where they want to take their career.
If you major in any of the STEMs, I think that the knowledge you gain in school and in those fields are more practical in the sense that they are very broadly applied. Engineers are now becoming bankers and so forth.
My favorite line on IB analysts in general was from 30 Rock:
Jack Donaghy: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off in the economic crash that Nancy Pelosi caused. They’ve got zero real-world skills, but, God, they work hard.
May have gotten a little off topic with my tangent.
Eh investment banking is terrible preparation for entrepreneurship, possibly the worst choice coming out of undergrad.
Investment banking, in my opinion, is the best choice for becoming a "star" EMPLOYEE for your life. When you move from 80 hr/weeks to 40/hr weeks, all of the sudden you become a rock-star. Given that almost everyday as an analyst is stressful, you are much more prepared than your peers in "normal" jobs.
As far as preparing you for an "out-of-the-box" view of work, whether that be management or entrepreneurship, than management consulting is probably the way to go. My 2c.
More nonsense. This is like saying someone who works 40 hours a week who moves into a part time job will become a rockstar. You guys really to get over yourselves.
I have a lot of thoughts on this topic.
First, and perhaps tangentially, I would disagree that developers frequently deal with complex math. Having a background in both web programming and working in investment banking, I can tell you that I think about math far less when programming than when building a financial model. Let's be clear though: neither require sophisticated mathematics.
It's certainly true that CS or engineering majors have more "hard skills" with a somewhat wider (but mostly just more intimidating) competitive moat. As a banker, you learn financial modeling, you deal with a number of unique corporate scenarios, you refine your attention to detail, and you build the ability to work well into the night on projects that might not always be the most exciting experience. None of these skills are individually very difficult to pick up, but in combination with a high level of intelligence turn out to be pretty valuable to a variety of different businesses.
But, once again, let's be clear: if you spent 80 hours a week programming in PHP / C++ / Java / etc., you'd be at a very advanced level of proficiency in a few weeks. Though programming languages can seem intimidatingly complex, they are perfectly logical and start to come naturally very quickly. Neither IB nor CS is particularly difficult.
However, the problem is: the "harder" and more "tangible" your skills become, the easier they are to replicate. CS and engineering jobs are very easily sent overseas.
What the last ten years have proven to me is that in a 21st century marketplace, you're much better off with "soft skills" than with "hard skills". Interacting with clients, working very well with a team, and dealing with "intractable" problems with no clear answer is the skill with the highest demand.
I almost agree with you but would say it's the nerds who can hold a conversation that are doing well. you still need more substance than soft skills.
i think the most important is dealing with unsolved problems (aka add value ). Much of the work a banker does is not add value (not until they land the actual deal!). I've met bankers who tell me they haven't a clue on how to actually invest well since they haven't had skin in the game for so long.
so are banking jobs, if your job requires an internet connection it can be done by someone else for pennies on the dollar.
Why Banks/HF/PE firms operate in over priced places like NYC, CT, Boston & London are beyond me. I've even heard of some funds setting up shops in Texas too..
Singapore, anyone?
You clearly have no clue what programming entails. It's not just punching in a bunch of code into the computer, hit compile, and get optimized code for scalable environments. Try actually programming in complex, real time, and critical systems before you draw parallels between programming and "modelling" in excel. Most people can get proficient in finance and excel within a short period of time. Most people cannot say the same for programming. btw, programming actually entails thinking (algos and math), whereas modelling in excel is just linking cells among 100 tabs or maybe pivot tables (if that).
I think it's a good learning experience, in that you learn you don't want to do it for more than 2-3 years.
CS/Engineering jobs are in demand, while analyst are in decline.
Curious for those that have done the research, how many hedge fund managers / private equity partners started out in IB?
Northsider I agree that there are parallels between Excel modeling and programming but I am not sure about the rest of your logic. Yes there is Boolean logic, simplistic arrays, recursive (circular loops), and probably some others things I missed all located in Excel. Web programming is rather simple and can be picked up just like Excel. Java, PHP, HTML, and MySQL are built this way on purpose with set functions that are ready to be called at any moment in time (just like excel). Once you step into the realm of C, C++, FORTRAN, Assembly language, and others... The similarities end. You can load functions, but for the most part you are building them from scratch.
The next step once these functions are built is to test them for efficiency. Any serious programming job takes into account how much computing is needed in order to solve the task most effectively. So how does a programmer know what is most efficient? They understand higher level mathematics ( not just algebra like us IB'ers) discrete mathematics, calculus, etc.
You can make the argument that most programmers don't know/remember the higher level mechanics, but I can say the same for most analysts who don't understand what a regression is. The best programmers use their STEM background to their advantage in their jobs and are not just coding monkeys. This holds true for IB since the best modeller understands the mathematics behind their models. So with all held equal CS needs a college level of mathematics while IB requires a knowledge of high school pre-calculus.
Personally I have a working knowledge of several programming languages and I graduated in STEM. Excel came to me quickly because I understood it was just a simpler version of Mat Lab or Visual Basic. These two programs were created for non-programmers to use so they wouldn't have to understand the technical mechanics behind a bare bones programming language.
All in all I believe that a programming background would create a better modeler in the long run, but the whole entire point of a PE analyst is to be able to contribute right off the bat. That is why so many IB guys and gals are poached after their second year. A CS/MBA grad is useful, but not as useful as an IB/MBA grad in the short term.
There seems to be the impression that I am calling the difficulty of Excel modelling equivalent to that of complex programming languages. I've tried to make it clear several times: I am not making the point that IB modelling requires a similar level of technical skill. I am making the argument that most people intelligent enough to obtain an IB analyst position at a BB bank possess the mental wherewithal to pursue CS successfully should they so desire. And certainly, vice versa.
I know very few IB analysts that don't understand what a regression is, and none that couldn't pick up the concept very adroitly if taught. Furthermore, mathematics is but one of many skills that are valuable in a career; I agree that high-level CS requires more mathematics than IB, but that's not the crux of the argument I am making.
So many people are enamored by various "hard skills", but I think that's due to a poor mental heuristic for judging the difficult of a job. I discussed this in another thread, so rather than restate, I will copy from that post:
I agree with Ben Lorrelo. IB gives you a great "work ethic". Being able to work for 100 hours a week prepares you for tough weeks unlike other jobs. But it doesn't guarantee you anything, like this place seems to equate it. I know plenty of guys who do IB for 2-3 years and turn into trash after they leave. It's like prison for some: they get used to the system and know what to do on Wall St but don't know how to assimilate to the rest of corporate America. There are plenty of great finance jobs that don't require slaving through investment banking. But most people that come here don't understand that and think this is the only career path: Graduate with a 4.0, go to a top IBD group, go to H/W/S, live life. Fools.
As what I saw, the biggest lesson that you can learn from working in IBD is "F*** I am such an idiot to waste 3 years of my lives in something torturing my life, I better escape and do something I really like"
there was some kid who was a Math or CS major that absolutely crushed everyone at creative writing or philosophy --> true because they generally work harder then a philosophy major!
You are making the assumption that IB analysts are smart enough to take on different roles with in just about any occupation space (In time). I question this because everyone in IB is not all that intelligent. Especially when it boils down to mathematical prowess. Yes 3.76 in anthropology is impressive at Dartmouth. Yes the person is probably pretty intelligent. Does that work ethic and all around great communication skills translate into doing well in STEM related courses?
Simply... No.
There are students in liberal arts / business who are terrified of high level mathematics. Those same students are the core of street. Can they get through the bio curriculum? Yes. Can they get through the electrical engineering degree? Probably yes. Would they be able to do it with a stunning GPA and and at a high caliber institution? No they wouldn't. At the higher level STEM schools you can not just be a "work horse". You need a deep understanding of the material which someone who is mathematically challenged can not do. With out the GPA, and the prestige of a tier 1 university they are not going to be working at Microsoft, Yelp or Google. They will get a job but not on the same level that WSO considers equal to IB.
I guess with time anything is possible. But all else set equal a CS major at a F100 technology company is most likely innately better at all things STEM. Which allowed them to do well a tier 1 university in a STEM major. These same CS majors can transition to IB at a high level and/or PE. Yet many analyst even with time probably can not transfer to the same caliber CS job.
Forgive me, but I just don't buy this.
I find it equally unlikely that a CS major would break in "at a high level" (your words) in IB as a former IB analyst would break into a CS job. High-level IB requires a host of soft skills, networking, corporate relationships, etc. that the great majority of computer scientists just don't have. Likewise, CS requires a host of hard skills that an IB analyst just doesn't have (unless they have spent a great deal of time self-studying).
None of this relates to the point I am making, though.
There is no such thing as this ellusive, mysterious "mathematics talent". All relevant literature continually demonstrates this point (see the 10,000 hour rule, Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, Superfreakonomics, etc.). Anyone with a 3.8 at Dartmouth had to perform well in math at some point. Competitive high school curricula almost always involve Calculus AB / BC AP.
In fact, most of the engineers that I know hated math in high school and didn't perform particularly well. They pursued engineering because they wanted a high-paying, stable job out of college and all of them have managed just that. Perhaps most prominently, my best friend in high school performed consistently poorly in math classes and took the slowest-paced math track available at our school. His dad had a technical background and pushed him to pursue an actuarial mathematics degree in college for a comfortable life and high paycheck. There were many point in college where he barely scraped by in actuarial classes. He once failed his first actuarial exam. But after spending 20 hours a week for 9 weeks studying, he passed his first exam, then his second, now he is studying for his third and recently started full time at an insurance company in P&C actuarial mathematics. Granted, anecdotes are cheap, but I think the point is clear: hard work, determination, and intelligence is the path to success in any field.
There is no such thing as being "terrified of mathematics", there are only different life choices that lead to different proclivities and tastes. I always excelled in math during HS and college, my family and friends encouraged me to be an engineer, but I decided to go a different route. It is, nevertheless, quite easy for me to imagine a different set of HS experiences that could have landed me in an engineering program. Or a medical program. Or a fine arts program. People make different choices, work ethic is what differentiates them, with few exceptions.
In short, I have no doubts that the girl at Dartmouth with a 3.8 in anthropology could have just as easily gone to MIT in computer science if she was so determined. There is no such thing as innate talent.
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