Finance Culture - Personalities

Mod Note (Andy): #TBT Throwback Thursday - this was originally posted on 5/20/13. To see all of our top content from the past, click here. Make sure to see the great comment below by CompBanker.

I come from a small town where nobody had ever heard of consulting or IB. I was fortunate enough to attend a top target college (a good Ivy) and land a gig in IB at a BB/EB. I'm starting full time this summer.

I've noticed that my personality has changed a lot since high school. Over college, I began hanging with a lot of rich preppy kids and have adopted a lot of their prejudices and mannerisms. Since junior year recruiting, I've spent more and more time around the kids going into IB or consulting and I realize more and more that my personality is slowly changing.

I'm way less accepting of people from diverse backgrounds, I judge people based on the job they have, I worry a lot about doing something "prestigious" with my life, I worry a lot about status symbols like clothes and watches and money, I'm a lot more lax about drugs, I have lost touch with some of my more interesting hobbies, etc. I've also networked so much and have become friends with so many people for utilitarian reasons that I feel as though I ultimately judge a lot of people based on what they can potentially do for me, rather than on their true character. This happens all over my campus.

For example, you frequently will see incredibly weird or arrogant or otherwise negative people who everyone wants to be friends with just because their dad is the CEO/CFO/Head of IB of a major bank or just because they have a job at GS or BX or whatever. Everyone casually name-drops their resume in the middle of conversations with each other at the awkwardest times and talks about their LSAT and GMAT and work stuff. They gossip about each other's majors and career plans and guess on who will be more successful than whom. And everyone knows that everyone is silently being judged in those conversations where everyone shares where they work. The moment where someone says the bank they are at or the job they are in determines how that person will be treated in the future, which I see as incredibly fucked up.

I feel as though I'm becoming an incredibly fake, not-down-to-earth person. I'm sure I'll change even more when working 24/7 with people like this at the office. I don't think I'd be able to push back against any peer pressure at all because I'd want to fit in and thus be seen as a good analyst. Also, not fitting in would make life hell given the number of hours you're working with the people in your group.

Can financial culture be harmful?

The thing is, I feel like I've been indoctrinated into this culture for so long now that I have trouble relating to people who aren't as "ambitious" as a lot of my friends. This happened today when I talked to some of my old friends and some new acquaintances. I get really embarrassed when they ask where I will be working or what I will be doing when they haven't even found a job yet or are working in Wisconsin or work as a cashier. We can't relate to each other and then it becomes awkward. There are no crutches to lean on like in conversations with finance people. And then I wonder if everyone I meet, including women, are also beginning to see me as a means to an end. I know a ton of people who I hang out with on a regular basis, who I feel as though would never hang out with me (and I wouldn't hang out with them) if it weren't for the fact that we both are working in IB. I remember there was this one kid that a lot of people hung out with and after he didn't get a return offer from his job and he ended up somewhere "lesser," people started spending less time with him. Everyone in this culture measures their self worth by their job.

And why is there so much attention afforded to people who have IB or consulting jobs? We didn't create anything interesting or do anything unique. Through pseudo-stalker networking, a million awkward coffee chats and a superficial memorization of an interview guide, we successfully convinced a (likely-corrupt) institution into offering us a really high wage to make powerpoints and spreadsheets for corporations who want to make mergers that are usually bad for shareholders. And for all the elitism, most people outside the field (who didn't grow up going to the Hamptons every summer) do not know what IB is and definitely don't know the difference in "prestige" between a GS and a CS. For those people who have heard about these firms, they see us as criminals.

As much as I want to be successful, the types of people who work in this industry honestly really disgust me sometimes. Anyone ever navigate through this psychotic culture and make it out the other side as a relatively normal human being?

 
Ipso facto:

Well, you're clearly introspective enough to see this in yourself. My guess: you'll be ok. Just don't forget where you came from.

I'd take this one step further - own where you come from. I was happy to be known as a farm kid/hick when I lived in NYC. It helps differentiate you while also reminding you where you came from. I think people liked me for it more because I never tried to fit some stereotype. Don't buy into the over-extravagance and BS prestige that people love to trade on. Be a simple, hardworking person, and people will like you for it, even if they don't necessarily understand you.

 
TechBanking:
Ipso facto:

Well, you're clearly introspective enough to see this in yourself. My guess: you'll be ok. Just don't forget where you came from.

I'd take this one step further - own where you come from. I was happy to be known as a farm kid/hick when I lived in NYC. It helps differentiate you while also reminding you where you came from. I think people liked me for it more because I never tried to fit some stereotype. Don't buy into the over-extravagance and BS prestige that people love to trade on. Be a simple, hardworking person, and people will like you for it, even if they don't necessarily understand you.

this, 500%

an analyst class can be quite diverse and as it should be. true, you need to conform on certain things, but never forget who you are... because that's all you have left after all said & done

 
TechBanking:
Ipso facto:

Well, you're clearly introspective enough to see this in yourself. My guess: you'll be ok. Just don't forget where you came from.

I'd take this one step further - own where you come from. I was happy to be known as a farm kid/hick when I lived in NYC. It helps differentiate you while also reminding you where you came from. I think people liked me for it more because I never tried to fit some stereotype. Don't buy into the over-extravagance and BS prestige that people love to trade on. Be a simple, hardworking person, and people will like you for it, even if they don't necessarily understand you.

I'd have to agree with Techbanking, let who you are shine through. A lot of people are either incredibily insecure or arrogant to a silly extreme, and hold attitudes that used to enfuriate/disgust me but now they make me laugh. It's said that a person is known (in part) by the company they keep......look for ambitious people like yourself, but make it a point to distance yourself from the major assholes, they rarely get far, especially the way banks are lately.

Thing is, you grew up with one value system and now are confronted with the other, and the difference is pretty stark. Part of this is yes, you're learning how to think like a person of wealth and power, and the mindset is very very different, so take the good from that. The adjustment can be tough at times, trust me I know, I was a bartender in a small town for years and walking down the streets of NYC might as well have been a different planet....hence my username. Some of the attitudes you'll encounter are over the top status whoring and whatnot, but also realize that there are a lot of people that came from simpler backgrounds as well. A huge amount of people I know in finance have friends back home they keep in touch with who have completely different lives, mostly to keep their sanity. Me, I hang out with my friends who are still bartenders, it keeps me grounded.

You might want to look into some charitable work when/if you have time, so you can get away from it all. Most in folks in finance think very similarly, it's like that in any career, so take some time away any chance you get to refresh yourself. Also realize that people in your age demographic are generally pricks, IMO people frankly suck until the age of 25/6/7 when they realize that they aren't shit in the grand scheme of things and get over themselves.

Get busy living
 
TechBanking:
Ipso facto:

Well, you're clearly introspective enough to see this in yourself. My guess: you'll be ok. Just don't forget where you came from.

I'd take this one step further - own where you come from. I was happy to be known as a farm kid/hick when I lived in NYC. It helps differentiate you while also reminding you where you came from. I think people liked me for it more because I never tried to fit some stereotype. Don't buy into the over-extravagance and BS prestige that people love to trade on. Be a simple, hardworking person, and people will like you for it, even if they don't necessarily understand you.

i second this... I am originally from a small town in trhe midwest near south dakota/nebraska - own it. It will keep you level headed in this industry. As a first year analyst - especially in banking, you will have control over essentially 2 things in your life for that first year: your level of effort, and how you treat other people - both of which will have profound effects on your life moving foward. Remember where you came from and take the best parts of it and let them flow through to your new life... my 2 cents

And so it goes
 

I totally agree with your points and I have witnessed them first hand. This is a reflection on the success culture that you can get caught up in while trying to fit in.

I realized that IB sucks you in. You might not realize it at first, but it slowly molds you and sucks your soul. The more you work in high finance, the more you are committed to that lifestyle and trying to maintain status quo among your colleagues and friends. That's the cut throat culture of IB. Some of the people who work in IB are psychopaths and sociopaths, ones who will kill for their jobs at any cost. I mean how else would you explain all that has gone on in the past 5 years and people still relentlessly gun for these jobs. Even as an intern, I witnessed sabotage, cheating, stealing, lying, manipulating and plain idiocy. All in all, it's just a game and everyone has their own limit. Don't be naive. The hard part in all of this is fitting in, sticking with the culture and realizing that people are are just there to make $$.

Bottom line, the more time you spend in IB, the more you realize the little things and the more you adapt with or without being cognizant of the changes you are making. Check out the leveragedsellout book for some funny commentary on all of this.

 

Generally speaking, I know what you're talking about. But in time, I think you'll realize money and prestige doesn't mean shit. I have friends who just graduated from a prestigious law school and I felt like such a loser being at their party. But on the other hand, I have HS friends who are still at community college trying to make ends meet as a barber or at a restaurant. In prospective, your occupation doesn't mean shit. There's always someone above you and someone below you. All you can do is be real and surround yourself with people who like you for you. The real people will always gravitate to the real and the fake do as well.

The one good thing about hanging out with "prestigious" people is that your expectations of yourself will always be higher than it would be otherwise.

 

"All you can do is be real and surround yourself with people who like you for you. The real people will always gravitate to the real and the fake do as well."

This is the truth. Sounds cliche but you really are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. +1.

 

I think it also matters a lot where you live. If you move to NYC, this type of attitude is prevalent, not just among bankers, but the majority of people you would interact with in the city. It becomes hard not to feel this when every young person you meet out is doing something amazing with their lives and judging others for the what they are doing. Likewise, if you end up in Chicago, there is a much more working mentality to many of the young people. It just becomes easier to relax and not worry about those things.

 

Never forget where you came from. I hope you don't take this attitude back to your family.

You should be glad you're noticing these things already; as such, you haven't fully converted into one of them.

 

For me this struggle with the "success culture" started in high school. My friends and I were the brightest students in our class and we went insane with the college admissions process--constantly comparing ourselves to each other, obsessing over admissions decisions in the spring, taking the ACT 4 or 5 times, reading CollegeConfidential religiously, etc. Junior and senior year was awful for me, absolutely awful, I had a breakdown as a male 18 year old HS senior in front of my family over a poor ACT score in sept. of my senior year.

After HS I thought it would get better as I was admitted to a selective, prestigious university (my top choice) in decemeber of senior year. But once I was there I realized that the rat race was not only still present, it had only intensified. A lot of kids want to go IB or consulting but we're all competing against each other and theres only a few spots. Plus when you're at a top university there are so many people with amazing resumes and GPAs that you just feel worthless compared to them. And I know that if I did get an IB job, it would only get even WORSE from there as everyone is competing to get into Bschool and get offers after their analyst stint.

My perspective is that money and prestige are great but that ultimately our lives are short and essentially meaningless. I find I care a lot more about how other people perceive me than how intrinsically happy I actually am and I want that to stop. Within a few decades we will all be dead and no one will give a shit how much money you made or where you worked or went to school. Eventually the sun will become a red giant, engulf the earth, and we will all be blasted back into the carbon and other elements we came from, scattered about the universe when the sun collapses on itself and explodes. We are just a few people on one planet out of trillions in the universe, so it doesn't really matter.

But hey, who knows, maybe in a few hundred million years from now, the atoms that used to make up your body may cross paths with those that once were a part of the elegant glass exterior of that famous building at 200 West Street.

 
ChrisHansen:

For me this struggle with the "success culture" started in high school. My friends and I were the brightest students in our class and we went insane with the college admissions process--constantly comparing ourselves to each other, obsessing over admissions decisions in the spring, taking the ACT 4 or 5 times, reading CollegeConfidential religiously, etc. Junior and senior year was awful for me, absolutely awful, I had a breakdown as a male 18 year old HS senior in front of my family over a poor ACT score in sept. of my senior year.

After HS I thought it would get better as I was admitted to a selective, prestigious university (my top choice) in decemeber of senior year. But once I was there I realized that the rat race was not only still present, it had only intensified. A lot of kids want to go IB or consulting but we're all competing against each other and theres only a few spots. Plus when you're at a top university there are so many people with amazing resumes and GPAs that you just feel worthless compared to them. And I know that if I did get an IB job, it would only get even WORSE from there as everyone is competing to get into Bschool and get offers after their analyst stint.

My perspective is that money and prestige are great but that ultimately our lives are short and essentially meaningless. I find I care a lot more about how other people perceive me than how intrinsically happy I actually am and I want that to stop. Within a few decades we will all be dead and no one will give a shit how much money you made or where you worked or went to school. Eventually the sun will become a red giant, engulf the earth, and we will all be blasted back into the carbon and other elements we came from, scattered about the universe when the sun collapses on itself and explodes. We are just a few people on one planet out of trillions in the universe, so it doesn't really matter.

But hey, who knows, maybe in a few hundred million years from now, the atoms that used to make up your body may cross paths with those that once were a part of the elegant glass exterior of that famous building at 200 West Street.

maybe im a weirdo but the competition is actually what makes it fun.

 
TNA:

Be driven, but be caution of being judgmental. Second you start judging people or shitting on them is the second your flaws become magnified.

This +1000.

But I'm pretty sure we can all admit finance, in one or another, has made us jaded.

 

It sounds as if you are giving in to this type of behavior. Why not try to be a part of the "good", non-condescending and non-judgmental bankers? A certain industry culture is neither intrinsic nor deterministic. I see your point and I think some of your observations are valid, but my response to a behavior I don't like will always be to remain who I am and to be true to what I believe in. If you're a friendly and moral individual, please continue to be so, regardless if you go into banking or not.

 
Kejsaren:

It sounds as if you are giving in to this type of behavior. Why not try to be a part of the "good", non-condescending and non-judgmental bankers? A certain industry culture is neither intrinsic nor deterministic. I see your point and I think some of your observations are valid, but my response to a behavior I don't like will always be to remain who I am and to be true to what I believe in. If you're a friendly and moral individual, please continue to be so, regardless if you go into banking or not.

Material things and "keeping up with the Joneses" can creep in.

 

Look down on the minions! You are royalty, and don't let them forget it!

When a plumber from Hoboken tells you he has a good feeling about a reverse iron condor spread on the Japanese Yen, you really have no choice. If you don’t do it to him, somebody else surely will. -Eddie B.
 

I'm a southerner and I'm in the same predicament as you. Recently have noticed the changes of being more judgmental and harsh. I show off my ego and superiority subtly, but that makes it all the more dangerous.

Like you, I'd prefer to go back to being the kind and thoughtful person. The person who isn't swayed by so many materialistic things. I tend to actually like non-finance people way more, but then realize I need to be around finance people to further my career. They are not the type I would hang around if I had the choice, just like you said.

Btw, most people down here don't know the difference between ops and IBD....they think they are on the same prestige level, which pisses me off when someone says they have Citi or Barclays ops, and everyone's like wow! Then again, that's the judgmental me that I'm trying to remove.

You went to an Ivy school...I go to a big state school, where people are even less concerned about prestige and stuff. Landing an ops role is considered really good...

 

I'm from and in a small city. I work for one of the few small M&A shops in the city. Most people I know (even ones who have standard accounting and finance jobs) don't know what investment banking is. When I bump into old friends/acquaintances who have not-so-career-type jobs I just tell them "I don't do anything special or important" and move on to the next topic. Be nice to everyone. Have fun. Enjoy the competition. Don't be a dick.

Make opportunities. Not excuses.
 

Like it or not, College kinda defines who you are.

I grew up in a rich suburb. I got a job working for an investment bank out of school. I went to a state school to save money on tuition.

Guess who takes pride in driving a rusty Honda and hates elitism?

Hate to say it, but the first four years you spend outside of your parents' house ultimately does more to define who you are than the other two or three first decades of your life. And you can be the elite guy who worries about being a douchebag all the time. Or you can the WSO troll who runs around handing out candy out of the back of his car- only for them to need to go get tetanus shots. Or the quiet person who doesn't say too much and tries not to judge (he is probably the wisest person).

I guess the question here is do you like the person you've become?

 
IlliniProgrammer:

Like it or not, College kinda defines who you are.

Hate to say it, but the first four years you spend outside of your parents' house ultimately does more to define who you are than the other two or three first decades of your life.

i respectfully disagree
WSO Content & Social Media. Follow us: Linkedin, IG, Facebook, Twitter.
 

I agree with TechBanking, embrace your roots. Not everyone has a story like you do, it'd be good for the industry to rub off on some of your co-workers instead of having them rub off on you. Also, you know that you've changed; you're the only one that can make decisions for yourself to either accept this lifestyle you've grown into, or take the right steps to dig deep and find the person you once were.

 

What I would suggest is that if you were raised in a household that embraced some type of religion or spirituality then keep that. It will remind you how to be humble, moral, how you have a duty to help the poor and less fortunate than yourself, ect. It may also be a good idea to find friends who may be in a "lower social class" but who are more like yourself who you could hang out with from time to time whenever you get the chance. Also in the overall scheme of things, you will probably go further being yourself than trying to fit in with others because people respect and even try to follow someone who is a true individual. This doesn't mean to cast your arrogant, weird, finance friends off as bad people but to simply be yourself when among them, and they will admire you for that.

 

Some people love it, some people hate it. Be yourself, but don't be afraid to go along with things. You do have something in common with the people around you, because you all joined the same profession. It just means you are hard working and ambitious. Wall Street gets a bad rap because of a few people that did stupid shit, but you can't let that bother you. I have found that I have become a little more materialistic, and that I care more about what other people think, but that's life. You have to realize that people would kill to be in the position that you are in, so you can't take it for granted. We've been given the chance to make the best salaries, have the most intense jobs, and enjoy the finest things (so we think), because we earned it. Yes, you don't want to turn into a total judgmental asshole, but you have earned some right to be proud of yourself and what you do.

I get asked almost every day why i don't do something "more useful with my life", and I tell them because I love my job. Who's to say that helping a struggling company find a buyer isn't useful, or that managing assets for a pension plan isn't useful, or that providing liquidity isn't useful?

The people that will ultimately give you shit about being in finance have no idea what it is that you do, but that's okay. Keep friends who aren't in finance, so you aren't around it everyday. I find that when I'm out with friends from work it's worse because of group think. Non-finance friends will keep you down to earth because you're not talking about work, it's a nice change of pace. Chances are they also don't booze as hard, don't do as many drugs, and don't hit on as many girls.

If nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong
 
Best Response

This is pretty common. I went through the same evolution and it took me a couple of years to realize that it had even happened. It is a terrible feeling when you wake up one day and realize that you're an asshole. You want to go back and apologize to all of those people that you degraded but you can't. So, a few quick points of advice from someone who has been there:

1) The company you keep is of the utmost importance. Don't surround yourself exclusively by other finance professionals. Surround yourself by people that share the same values as you do. This might require a meaningful change in your life outside of work. Instead of getting bottle service on Friday night, go out with your non-finance friends to the cheaper bars in town. When you do, talk about something other than work. Ask them about their life, their passions, and just be a normal friend. Afterall, this is the core of what relationships are built on. If you really struggle with this, consider looking for jobs outside of major cities, particularly NYC.

2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy way to lose friends.

3) Stop buying expensive / flashy things, or at least don't wear them outside of the office. You don't need a $10,000 watch nor Ferragamo shoes, and quite honestly no one really cares at the end of the day. This will help you resist the urge to show off your financial success, per point #2.

4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 
CompBanker:

This is pretty common. I went through the same evolution and it took me a couple of years to realize that it had even happened. It is a terrible feeling when you wake up one day and realize that you're an asshole. You want to go back and apologize to all of those people that you degraded but you can't. So, a few quick points of advice from someone who has been there:

1) The company you keep is of the utmost importance. Don't surround yourself exclusively by other finance professionals. Surround yourself by people that share the same values as you do. This might require a meaningful change in your life outside of work. Instead of getting bottle service on Friday night, go out with your non-finance friends to the cheaper bars in town. When you do, talk about something other than work. Ask them about their life, their passions, and just be a normal friend. Afterall, this is the core of what relationships are built on. If you really struggle with this, consider looking for jobs outside of major cities, particularly NYC.

2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy when to lose friends.

3) Stop buying expensive / flashy things, or at least don't wear them outside of the office. You don't need a $10,000 watch nor Ferragamo shoes, and quite honestly no one really cares at the end of the day. This will help you resist the urge to show off your financial success, per point #2.

4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.

Good post, +1

 
CompBanker:

This is pretty common. I went through the same evolution and it took me a couple of years to realize that it had even happened. It is a terrible feeling when you wake up one day and realize that you're an asshole. You want to go back and apologize to all of those people that you degraded but you can't. So, a few quick points of advice from someone who has been there:

1) The company you keep is of the utmost importance. Don't surround yourself exclusively by other finance professionals. Surround yourself by people that share the same values as you do. This might require a meaningful change in your life outside of work. Instead of getting bottle service on Friday night, go out with your non-finance friends to the cheaper bars in town. When you do, talk about something other than work. Ask them about their life, their passions, and just be a normal friend. Afterall, this is the core of what relationships are built on. If you really struggle with this, consider looking for jobs outside of major cities, particularly NYC.

2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy when to lose friends.

3) Stop buying expensive / flashy things, or at least don't wear them outside of the office. You don't need a $10,000 watch nor Ferragamo shoes, and quite honestly no one really cares at the end of the day. This will help you resist the urge to show off your financial success, per point #2.

4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.

Always a pleasure to hear from CompBanker. Especially enjoyed this line:

"Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy when to lose friends."

We're all guilty of this, myself included.

 
CompBanker:

4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.

Agree with everything except #4. If you're the quiet guy, you're forgotten even though you're standing there and honestly that feels way worse. being in the middle is good.

 
CompBanker:

This is pretty common. I went through the same evolution and it took me a couple of years to realize that it had even happened. It is a terrible feeling when you wake up one day and realize that you're an asshole. You want to go back and apologize to all of those people that you degraded but you can't. So, a few quick points of advice from someone who has been there:

1) The company you keep is of the utmost importance. Don't surround yourself exclusively by other finance professionals. Surround yourself by people that share the same values as you do. This might require a meaningful change in your life outside of work. Instead of getting bottle service on Friday night, go out with your non-finance friends to the cheaper bars in town. When you do, talk about something other than work. Ask them about their life, their passions, and just be a normal friend. Afterall, this is the core of what relationships are built on. If you really struggle with this, consider looking for jobs outside of major cities, particularly NYC.

2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy when to lose friends.

3) Stop buying expensive / flashy things, or at least don't wear them outside of the office. You don't need a $10,000 watch nor Ferragamo shoes, and quite honestly no one really cares at the end of the day. This will help you resist the urge to show off your financial success, per point #2.

4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.

SB for you.
 
CompBanker:

2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy way to lose friends.

This is defiantly true. Thanks CompBanker.

Also philanthropy does wonders for a persons public image. Just look at how much more respect Bill Gates gets now compared to 15 or more years ago.

Finally, the old saying "any publicity is good publicity" should be taken to heart by all people in finance, as this is a field where most struggle. Take for example Donald Trump and Warren Buffet. Their lifestyles and political views are drastically different, yet they both share public esteem. They do both generate lots of publicity. Contrast this with the typical bank CEO who will occasionally give a commencement speech or QUIETLY make a large donation, but usually tries to avoid media attention. Contrast this with celebrities who are constantly in trouble with the law in one way or another, yet they are still MUCH more respected than finance people. The moral of the story is that it is better to be a public Douche than a private saint.

 

Also philanthropy does wonders for a persons public image. Just look at how much more respect Bill Gates gets now compared to 15 or more years ago.

Finally, the old saying "any publicity is good publicity" should be taken to heart by all people in finance, as this is a field where most struggle. Take for example Donald Trump and Warren Buffet. Their lifestyles and political views are drastically different, yet they both share public esteem. They do both generate lots of publicity. Contrast this with the typical bank CEO who will occasionally give a commencement speech or QUIETLY make a large donation, but usually tries to avoid media attention. Contrast this with celebrities who are constantly in trouble with the law in one way or another, yet they are still MUCH more respected than finance people. The moral of the story is that it is better to be a public Douche than a private saint.

[/quote] I disagree, if you're going to do something good then do it for the sake of helping others and doing a good deed- not so others will know what you did. If you do good works for "publicity" they will only make you even more arrogant which is what you are trying to avoid in the first place. I'm not saying not to ever do good things in public, but just do them for the right reasons.

 

I completely relate to everything in this thread. It's so easy to get carried away. A movie called Fight Club actually helped me stay grounded, if you haven't seen it I recommend you do but the most pertinent line that I always try and remember is "You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.”

 

Yes, there are a select few character traits that allow those whom embody the essence said traits become masters of investment banking and fast-track their rise to power in pursuit of the corner office, 3 cell phones, dual secretaries and unlimited corporate expense account.

However, these traits are kept secret by those whom have discovered them. They are hidden in an old, dusty filing cabinet in the BNP Paribas vault. If you want to discover these secrets you should look for a job as a filing clerk at BNP and search until you discover these secrets. Then you too can rise to the great fame of !!^*MaNaGiNg DiReCtOr*^!!

 
Harvey Halstein:

The only thing you need to dominate Wall Street, if all else failed in life be "GRITTY"

Nice talk, reminds me of that Nietzsche quote..."If we have our own why in life, we shall get along with almost any how"

However, I certainly don't think that grit is enough, if you define it something like "perseverance and passion for long-term goals". Stuff like self-awareness, confidence, adaptability, creativity, resourcefulness, etc. all play a huge role for dominating Wall Road and various other streets

 

Lord, why is every person who leaves consulting/high finance to go to a more "passion-oriented" job so self-righteous? This is such crap. Grit doesn't mean anything when you don't have the talent to match it. You can take a regular kid and put him in a gym 24/7 and he won't ever make it to D1 basketball.

There are kids who graduate high school unable to take a first order derivative and can spend hours on one-on-one tutoring while others can take undergrad level mathematics courses as high school underclassmen. Contrary to popular belief, hard work doesn't mean anything unless you are smart/athletic/whatever as well. It's just emotional pandering to make people think "anything is possible!!!" when it is absolutely not.

I hate consultants.

 

Empathy + low integrity.

It's a rarely encountered combination, but makes for killer salespeople.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

Not sure if it's as relevant in banking, but certainly on the investing side I think you need an ability to view things in a detached and objective manner, even if the conclusion is that you are/were wrong about something. Capital Group used to have a great line in the prerequisites for their analyst recruiting that said something to the effect of "the ideal candidate will have low ego needs...". This is so important. You are going to be wrong. A lot. If you are any good you should also be right. A lot. The key is to detach yourself from the associated emotional swings that come from being "right" or "wrong" at any given point in time, and think coherently about what the market is likely to focus on next, independent of how your numbers are looking today. I think that's what separates the really great investors from the grind players, and you can see it in their personalities.

 
jankynoname:

Not sure if it's as relevant in banking, but certainly on the investing side I think you need an ability to view things in a detached and objective manner, even if the conclusion is that you are/were wrong about something. Capital Group used to have a great line in the prerequisites for their analyst recruiting that said something to the effect of "the ideal candidate will have low ego needs...". This is so important. You are going to be wrong. A lot. If you are any good you should also be right. A lot. The key is to detach yourself from the associated emotional swings that come from being "right" or "wrong" at any given point in time, and think coherently about what the market is likely to focus on next, independent of how your numbers are looking today. I think that's what separates the really great investors from the grind players, and you can see it in their personalities.

I see what you're saying but I do not agree, at least in the specific way you phrased it. It sounds like you're describing a computer

Pride and emotion fuel accomplishment

 

Assuming you are better than average in terms of the basic stuff (skills for the job, networking, good conversation, intelligent, up-to-date with current issues/trends) the most important things (although not exactly a trait) is forming a strong bond/good working relationship with someone senior(VP, Director, etc). Someone in this position will not only mentor you professionally, they will also do it personally. If you impress them and they like you, they are likely to want to promote and retain you. Outside the office, they are likely to invite you for a game of squash and you get to meet their buddies. Their ability to see you as more than just a colleague but as a friend beats almost any skill you could have.

 

During my summer stint at a BB, I had the chance to hear from a lot of senior execs working at different banks. I remember a speech from one that had worked their way up from a very low-income household to being a global head at a BB.

They attributed their success to "three P's" : perspiration, paranoia & prayer.

Perspiration - To climb the wall street ladder, you need to have grit. You need to be able to outwork every other person vying for the position you want. Simple as that.

Paranoia - A healthy dose of paranoia is what how the speaker referred to this point. You need to realize that as you climb the ladder, the competition gets tougher and tougher. There may be fewer candidates for the position, but they will not shy away from playing dirty.

Prayer - This doesn't necessarily mean you have to worship a deity, however, you do need to have some sort of outlet to deal with all the stress that comes with working in this industry. Whether this is religion or not is up to you. You can do yoga, meditate, play an instrument, hike, kayak, etc. Do something that is sustainable & can relax you.

Apologies for not going into further detail, but this is what I can recall from their speech.

 

Charisma and Perseverance.

If you have those both, you'll dominate any job or career field.

"It is better to have a friendship based on business, than a business based on friendship." - Rockefeller. "Live fast, die hard. Leave a good looking body." - Navy SEAL
 

You're likely to be surrounded by competent geniuses and average joes as well as incompetent geniuses and average joes. The key is dealing with the latter in a way that allows it to not negatively impact your mentality or performance. All too often you'll find yourself having to repeat something you've said a million times. Whether you're repeating yourself to a co-worker on how to build a basic formula in Excel or repeating yourself to a boss or a team you support on something you've emailed a reminder about on 10 different occasions, it will inevitably happen frequently throughout your life. Some of these people slip through the cracks or are tolerated because they produce, others will be dismissed. The goal is to surround yourself with the ones who are the full package and don't just get by because of performance. Those outside of this group will provide invaluable learning experiences by way of their annoyances that will develop your unique understanding of yourself and the greater business world. As much as the incompetent ones hinder your production, you cannot allow it to hinder your growth. I'm not quite sure of one character trait to mash that all together, though I'd ultimately say to be empathetic, benevolent, level-headed and relentless.

 

How old are you?

If you just graduated recently, then you'll soon realize that money and prestige don't really take you as far as you think they will. You'll see less prestigious from people from high school working their way up and getting good jobs despite their poor pedigree, or people with mediocre jobs who are much happier with their lives than you are because they have a better work/life balance. You'll probably also see coworkers flame out/get laid off.

Basically, life is absolutely nothing like school where people can be easily ranked on some sort of prestige spectrum. It takes a few years to get that BS out of your system (along with all the other pernicious nonesense that you learn in school). I used to think like you do (though perhaps not as severely) but I'm quite glad to say that now the only thing I give a hoot about when talking to someone is whether they're cool and interesting to talk to. That's it.

 

Thanks OP, confessions of an investment banker-holic. (Pun intended)

This is called the, 'I Wanna Be An Investment Banker' syndrome (IWBAIBS).

Le sigh... can someone advice on how does one exactly know that you are really passionate and interested in Finance. I could somehow resonate with the OP's predicament. I will be matriculating for undergrad in 2 years due to conscription commitments, I could say that I'm really passionate and interested in Finance, however are these interests and passion driven by the distortions of the psychological perception of the so-called 'I Wanna Be An Investment Banker' syndrome?

With reference, you could see a diatribe that I started on WSO which disgusts me somehow or another.

I. Am. Slowly. Losing. My. Soul.

 
Peterj2k12:

I completely relate to everything in this thread. It's so easy to get carried away. A movie called Fight Club actually helped me stay grounded, if you haven't seen it I recommend you do but the most pertinent line that I always try and remember is "You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.”

Come on, guy!! You just broke the first rule...

 
Hayek:

Basically, life is absolutely nothing like school where people can be easily ranked on some sort of prestige spectrum. It takes a few years to get that BS out of your system (along with all the other pernicious nonesense that you learn in school). I used to think like you do (though perhaps not as severely) but I'm quite glad to say that now the only thing I give a hoot about when talking to someone is whether they're cool and interesting to talk to. That's it.

This. I feel like colleges do an absolute disservice to students nowadays. There's some honor society for everything in existence. Everytime you bust your ass you get a gold star and a slap on the ass. It gets in people's heads and literally makes them think they're special. Then they enter the real world and have a hard time transitioning because they realize they aren't anymore. The effort / feedback loop is completely different in real life. You're going to see kids who did nothing in college, doing well- and you're going to see kids who busted their asses and did perfectly, doing poorly.

It sucks,but you basically end up either 1) saying "fuck it" and bailing, or 2) realizing "it is what it is" and trying to make the best of it. The only definite is that you'll eventually realize you aren't special, and it will change your views on pretty much everything when it happens.

 

I'm a senior IB analyst, who was offered the associate promote, and when I turned that down was offered an associate promote to a related fund that the bank owns that does corporate PE investments.

I'm not taking either of them, exactly for reasons that the OP called out. While, I'm sure it's not like this at every bank, I feel that 90% of the people I have met or interacted with this job could categorically be described as immoral or just bad people.

If psycopaths make up 1% of the population, but 3-4% in the corporate world (studies have more or less shown this), I'd be shocked if the number isn't somewhere in the mid to high teens in banking (at least at senior levels). It's almost a pre-requisite to be able to treat people as objects, consistently misrepresent information to people who trust you with important corporate information, and abuse anyone junior to you in the contrive banking hierarchy in order to be successful in this industry. While at the junior level, and in the short run, the skills you gain may well be worth this trade-off for some, many, many undergraduates go into this culture naively with no comparable experience to relate to. Being around people like this for 98% of the time you're awake is not something to discount lightly. Unfortunately, for many who have never struggled before in an academic setting, they view themselves as invincible and have no idea what types of immoral people they will be interacting with on a daily basis. There's a reason investment bankers face more serioues health problems (physical and mental, including depression) than many others (see "Hazard of the Trade: Bankers Health." WSJ. Feb 15, 2012).

My advice to you, OP, is to take seriously the concerns you've identified for yourself. Investment banking is not, by any means, the be all and end all. As a point of reference, look to those 20 years ahead in their career and see if they seem happy with their lives. Despite their success, almost all the senior people I work with (including clients) appear to 1) miserable or 2) to thoroughly enjoy abusing others through the guise of allowable corporate culture, which harkens back to our shared point on psycopathy. What ultimately made me decide to leave this bloodsucking culture was the realization that I don't want to end up like that in 20 years. I can too easily see myself regret the life I threw away in exchange for being able to buy stuff that, ultimately, no one really gives a shit about (including yourself). I mean, how happy will you be for your 30 minute drive to work in the morning in your ferarri if you dread the day that follows? Is that worth it to you? If it is, maybe banking's the right place for you. Otherwise, stray from the temptation to buy into other 22 year old bullshit about how pretigious they are, and figure out a better alternative life path while you sill can.

 

All it is is bullshit, at the end of the day all the petty fighting and bickering about prestige, the appearance of status, the cool watch, power suit, it's all BS...if it changes you. You can be a nice guy in corporate america and be humble, it is certainly possible... and those guys do get ahead in life over the long run. It's just those less grounded insecure people who change in the process of climbing the corporate ladder, that find themselved miserable, deprived of any sense of fufillment, that wonder if they really lived at all at age 45.

Build up streams of passive income and get out of the rat race. It's good that you realize what's happening.

My finance blog: AdviceAboutFinance.com Twitter @samleefinance
 

[quote=epoch707

Build up streams of passive income and get out of the rat race. It's good that you realize what's happening.

[/quote]

^^This. So much.

My first year and a half in banking shocked me after realizing how dreadfully awful most bankers are at managing their money. The vast majority of them, even 1st year analysts, blow all their hard earned income on stupid shit like $200 belts, $1,000 bottle service on clubs, $500 shoes, and frequent absurdly expensive dinners, etc etc. In other words, shit they don't need that will cease being productive for them later on, and that only makes them look like dicks (what 22-23 year old needs a $200 belt???)

I've been living more than comfortably on ~60-70% of my base since I was a 1st year analyst, have stockpiled my bonuses, and am now at the point where I can start buying some income generating real estate. Meanwhile, most people I know who became associates (either IB or PE) just want to buy new BMWs. What a way to continue to enslave yourself to the system.

 

OP,

To give you some solid advice that helped me stay grounded my first year or two in finance, you need to not get sucked into the bubble of work/seamless/models and bottles. There have been several good suggestions in this thread but here are a couple more things to try out: 1) Pick up a hobby outside of work. Whether it is playing a sport on weekends, becoming involved in an art museum's activities, going to concerts, ANYTHING, just to get regular interactions with people from outside of finance. Analysts might not get a lot of time but if it means an extra 2 hours in the office another time, it is worth it. 2) Find a normal, local bar somewhere near where you live, walk in and strike up a conversation with whomever you meet, if it is slow, talk to the wait/barstaff.

 
Monkano:

I've been living more than comfortably on ~60-70% of my base since I was a 1st year analyst, have stockpiled my bonuses, and am now at the point where I can start buying some income generating real estate. Meanwhile, most people I know who became associates (either IB or PE) just want to buy new BMWs. What a way to continue to enslave yourself to the system.

Quoted for awesomeness.
 
Monkano:

I'm a senior IB analyst, who was offered the associate promote, and when I turned that down was offered an associate promote to a related fund that the bank owns that does corporate PE investments.

I'm not taking either of them, exactly for reasons that the OP called out. While, I'm sure it's not like this at every bank, I feel that 90% of the people I have met or interacted with this job could categorically be described as immoral or just bad people.

If psycopaths make up 1% of the population, but 3-4% in the corporate world (studies have more or less shown this), I'd be shocked if the number isn't somewhere in the mid to high teens in banking (at least at senior levels). It's almost a pre-requisite to be able to treat people as objects, consistently misrepresent information to people who trust you with important corporate information, and abuse anyone junior to you in the contrive banking hierarchy in order to be successful in this industry. While at the junior level, and in the short run, the skills you gain may well be worth this trade-off for some, many, many undergraduates go into this culture naively with no comparable experience to relate to. Being around people like this for 98% of the time you're awake is not something to discount lightly. Unfortunately, for many who have never struggled before in an academic setting, they view themselves as invincible and have no idea what types of immoral people they will be interacting with on a daily basis. There's a reason investment bankers face more serioues health problems (physical and mental, including depression) than many others (see "Hazard of the Trade: Bankers Health." WSJ. Feb 15, 2012).

My advice to you, OP, is to take seriously the concerns you've identified for yourself. Investment banking is not, by any means, the be all and end all. As a point of reference, look to those 20 years ahead in their career and see if they seem happy with their lives. Despite their success, almost all the senior people I work with (including clients) appear to 1) miserable or 2) to thoroughly enjoy abusing others through the guise of allowable corporate culture, which harkens back to our shared point on psycopathy. What ultimately made me decide to leave this bloodsucking culture was the realization that I don't want to end up like that in 20 years. I can too easily see myself regret the life I threw away in exchange for being able to buy stuff that, ultimately, no one really gives a shit about (including yourself). I mean, how happy will you be for your 30 minute drive to work in the morning in your ferarri if you dread the day that follows? Is that worth it to you? If it is, maybe banking's the right place for you. Otherwise, stray from the temptation to buy into other 22 year old bullshit about how pretigious they are, and figure out a better alternative life path while you sill can.

+50

 
thankyoucomeagain:
ChrisHansen:

For me this struggle with the "success culture" started in high school. My friends and I were the brightest students in our class and we went insane with the college admissions process--constantly comparing ourselves to each other, obsessing over admissions decisions in the spring, taking the ACT 4 or 5 times, reading CollegeConfidential religiously, etc. Junior and senior year was awful for me, absolutely awful, I had a breakdown as a male 18 year old HS senior in front of my family over a poor ACT score in sept. of my senior year.

After HS I thought it would get better as I was admitted to a selective, prestigious university (my top choice) in decemeber of senior year. But once I was there I realized that the rat race was not only still present, it had only intensified. A lot of kids want to go IB or consulting but we're all competing against each other and theres only a few spots. Plus when you're at a top university there are so many people with amazing resumes and GPAs that you just feel worthless compared to them. And I know that if I did get an IB job, it would only get even WORSE from there as everyone is competing to get into Bschool and get offers after their analyst stint.

My perspective is that money and prestige are great but that ultimately our lives are short and essentially meaningless. I find I care a lot more about how other people perceive me than how intrinsically happy I actually am and I want that to stop. Within a few decades we will all be dead and no one will give a shit how much money you made or where you worked or went to school. Eventually the sun will become a red giant, engulf the earth, and we will all be blasted back into the carbon and other elements we came from, scattered about the universe when the sun collapses on itself and explodes. We are just a few people on one planet out of trillions in the universe, so it doesn't really matter.

But hey, who knows, maybe in a few hundred million years from now, the atoms that used to make up your body may cross paths with those that once were a part of the elegant glass exterior of that famous building at 200 West Street.

maybe im a weirdo but the competition is actually what makes it fun.

totally agree....now I'm in a small liberal arts college, that no one knowsother's score like GPA, there is basically no atmosphere of competition.....and to be honest....yes, I feel bored...

 

Great post. You basically just put into words what I think about all the time. I also grew up near a farm in a state that most people could not even point out on a map. I am starting full-time at a BB/EB in a few weeks as well. I constantly contemplate what kind of elitist and pretentious attitude I may have to adopt to "fit in" in the banking world.

Before I knew what banking was a naive freshman, I use to think the kids in the finance clubs and business frats were douchey and arrogant. I wonder if the newbies in my school think of me as the same now...

 

This is what happens when the culture promotes taking jobs at BBs at any cost (including this web site).

People forget the reason why you interview is because you're trying to find a cultural fit. Instead of prioritizing the kind of people you work with and their character, people blindly seek status or prestige (oh wow, you work at Goldman). Find a group of people you can trust, respect, and cooperate with. Get a good work/life balance. Have some hobbies outside of work. Then you will be happy.

Walk the streets of New York sometime. People don't give a shit who you are. If you're sitting in a big tower all day and then take a cab to your apartment on the Upper East Side, you frankly aren't a New Yorker. You just live here.

I love the post by GuyFawkes. This is the best thing you could possibly do. Go to a club or a bar. No, not the flashy ones with bottle service, valet, and a brand name dress code. Go to the dirty, grimy ones. That's where you'll meet the real New Yorkers.

 

as long as you work hard, are nice, and are fun, you've earned your place and people will respect that. i'm from the bible belt, but work in nyc. coworkers find that fascinating are genuinely interested in unique backgrounds.

 

I can't say much about how FT things work, but so far my internships, on a relationship level, have gone pretty well. I'm from the Midwest, and I play off of the stereotype (very nice, polite, and hard working). Most of my friends are engineers and have nothing to do with banking. I still have a couple friends who are also going into banking, but I mostly spend my time with my non-banking friends, and I really appreciate that.

 

A good way I found to keep down to earth is not talk about what people do for work. Talk about what they ENJOY! Mention something about a recent sporting event. Bring up hunting, fishing, etc. Ask how "mom er nem" are doing. With some of my closest friends, neither of us knew what each other do for work for anywhere from 3 months to a year after beginning to hang out. However, we know whose mom has vegetables ripening and whose dog won't stop eating cat shit from the cat pan.

 

From asking my friends who are also interning it sounds like this depends a lot on the bank. If you work for a bad MD or group then your life is bad but if you work for a fun and relaxed group your life is good and it sounds like you get paid the same. Better to choose the firm you can enjoy working for since its hard to change the personality of someone who is above you.

 

I ask myself similar questions but I've found several things which keep me grounded:

1) Religion/Spirituality -- Buddhism, Christianity, whatever; its important to self-reflect and these help to guide you through that process, even if you don't believe in the principles they espouse.

2) Volunteering -- it makes you realise that you're lucky to even wake up in the morning and drag yourself to your desk. There are plenty of people in a worse health/family situation than you can imagine/have experienced, be grateful. Find time for a cause you believe in, if in doubt, choose something health-related. At the very least, you'll learn a little more on how to take better care of yourself.

3) Family -- ultimately, these people will love you and will be the last to "give up" on you. Treat them properly and let them know they are valued in your life. By the time you truly realise this, you'll regret not spending those precious hours - no amount of money can compensate for poor "quality time" with family.

4) Real Non-Finance Friends -- people who you find cool, interesting and are unlikely to bring drama into your life. Your personal time will be limited as it is (relative to your disposable income at least) and work is stressful enough, theres no need to be the main character in your own TV drama. Hanging out with non-finance friends will also remind you that bottle service, ferraris and all that other materialistic shit are superfluous. I'm grateful for my extensive backpacking prior to work, the people I've kept in contact with prefer the VALUE of TIME, over the VALUE of MONEY.

Good luck.

 

My uni is so just like this. A bunch of "one-uppers" who only make friends due to family connections/perceived prestige of being someone's friend (because they're rich or exotically foreign)

I grew up in a town with plenty of family net worths north of nine and ten figures. However, unlike aristocrats and politicians, all their money was made in trades (i.e construction - think the Godfather).

These people, although disgustingly rich, hardly ever showed it, and never saw themselves as "upper class" or "high society". I can understand why some people feel they need to prove themselves by wearing $200 socks, but they honestly make me sick.

I've managed to resist acclimating to my school's snobby culture, but only at the expense of making friends. I worry that a successful career in banking, like a successful social life at a ritsy school, can only come at the cost of these moral values.

Thoughts?

 

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  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

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