How competitive is it for target schools?

Thanks! What would you consider a solid sophomore internship ( could you give examples etc)? Oh wow, 3.7 seems pretty high, I saw some previous posts saying 3.5 is fine but as you said it might be more competitive now.

Yes

Getting into a target is much harder. For instance in 2008 48% of the class at Wharton went into IB.

Look, I am by my own admission no expert on logic and all that nonsense. I leave that to people much smarter than I. Maybe you are one of them. So please explain how MK's logic is so poor and astounding?

My thought is that the OP's original question includes 2 mutually exclusive events: 1) getting into a target, and 2) getting into BB IBD from a target.

If Wharton undergrad admissions is 10% acceptance rate and Wharton's class has a 48% acceptance rate into BB IBD, how can you say it is poor logic? Now granted, his statement assumed that 48% goes to BB, which is not a given here. But in order for you to consider it statistically more difficult to get into a target than into BB, the BB acceptance rate would simply need to be more than 10% of the Wharton class.

You are considering two mutually exclusive events based on the original question. You have a 10% chance of getting into Wharton. You have a 48% chance of getting into IB if you are at Wharton. If these were not posed as mutually exclusive, then your odds of getting into IB prior to going to Wharton is 10% x 48%. But that wasn't the question.

Am I missing something here?

48% (number of students going into IB divided by graduating class) of Wharton's class going into IB does not mean the acceptance rate is 48% (number of applications accepted by IB divided by the number of applications for IB. The intelligence of many people on this thread is sad.

~Semper Fi Bankerfuckers~

Not all Wharton grads wanted to do IBanking, so MonkeyKingdom's # would actually be higher. In that way his statement is flawed, but obviously not for reasons that ideating stated.

I think the initial question is just a bad question. Banks use school selectivity as a basically free method to whittle down their applicant pool. Beyond the pure #'s, the confounding variable in this case is a combo of analytical ability/drive/leadership/initiative/etc. Basically if you have these things you will have no problem acquiring an Ivy League education, an IB job, or both.

I also think that 48% of WHARTON students... not UPenn students... ie. 48% of economics majors at Harvard end up in banking... is not the same as 48% of Harvard UG go into banking.

Even that number seems high. The last time I saw the recruiting stats that Wharton sends out to banks, I could have sworn it was something like 30% in finance, and finance investment banking. It was still the largest piece of the pie, but not nearluy 48%.

Here is the link http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/wharton/surveys/Wharton2008Rep…

If you combine the people who go into private equity and investment banking, it is literally half of the class... again proving my point that it is harder to get into a target school, than to get into investment banking.

Here is the link http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/wharton/surveys/Wharton2008Rep…

If you combine the people who go into private equity and investment banking, it is literally half of the class... again proving my point that it is harder to get into a target school, than to get into investment banking.

I stand corrected. Thats the same report I saw, guess I didn't remember to accurately.

How does your post even make any sense?

Of course the acceptance rate into IBD is not 48%. That might be the acceptance rate into Citi's teller training program, something I am guessing you know a lot about. But the question was posed as this: is it harder to get into a target or harder to get into IB ONCE YOU ARE ALREADY AT A TARGET?

Let's just play it safe here and assume that 100% of Wharton students apply for IB, according to this link above, approximately 45% of the class ends up employed in IB. Let's also play it safe and assume that that 45% is 45% of the 85% working full-time. That means about 40% of the entire Wharton class ends up working in IB.

So the acceptance rate into IB as a whole may be miniscule, but the acceptance rate into IB if you are a Wharton student is approximately 40%. And that is assuming 100% of the class applied for IB. The number improves for every person that did not apply.

So if the number of people that apply to Wharton that get in is 10% and the number of people from Wharton getting in to IB is 40%, then it is statistically harder to get into Wharton than to get into IB from Wharton. MK is exactly right.

On a stand-alone basis, your odds of getting into IB are very slim. But not everyone is created equal. Once you put Wharton on your resume, it obviously drastically improves the likelihood that you get into IB. Just like if the question was, are you more likely to get into Penn from a run down public school or a premier prep school?

You are an idiot. Maybe it is your intelligence that is so "sad".

Who is he talking to?

mnabanker, you need to take a basic probability class before you start throwing around terms like "mutually exclusive" that have a specific meaning in math.

going to a target and going to a BB from a target are not mutually exclusive. in fact, one event has to occur in order for the other to be even possible--not quite the opposite of mutually exclusive, but pretty darn close.

anyway, back to the original question: i would guess that P(target) MBA program. i'm not sure about the undergrad level...

x

Why are we assuming that P(target) = P(Wharton)? Aren't HYPS(MIT)(Columbia), etc... all targets?

So, P(target) should be much higher than 10%, and is probably closer to P(BB | target)..

unless theyre god awful, yes it's rare. opportunities come flying at them like noones business

I know plenty of people at my target who've had tremendous difficulty finding jobs. Networking is still necessary at target schools, although truly strong candidates, for the most part, have no problem at all.

Keep in mind that at target schools, you'll find the best & worst of both ends. You meet truly exceptional people but also dumbasses who'd probably not survive in the real world without their rich parents. Such was the case with my target school (not sure about others).

In terms of job search - yes, basically everyone I know has some kind of summer internship.

I went to a target and almost got no internship this summer. It's definitely true that you have plenty of opportunities but it's not a guarantee that you will get a decent internship just because of your school's brand name.

You won't have trouble coming from a target school.

You should have no trouble coming from a target school because OCR gives you access to the best banks. If you have a really low GPA it might be a problem. One of my friends had a 3.0 from a super-target school with a degree in Finance and he did not get anything for this summer which really surprised me. So it's possible.

Of kinds interested in finance, I would say 35% of kids manage to get like Bulge Bracket FT/Internships, 35% get mid tiered or bad internships and the rest do something that is arguably unrelated to finance.

Numbers vary by target school. These numbers are reasonable for my school and seem to be reasonable at another target school as well based on conversations with friends.

I actually found that a majority of the kids at my target did not get the exact internship they wanted. What I found was that the "super good kids" monopolized and received several offers from all the good banks, which ultimately resulted in very low yields at the banks. For example, one kid got offers from BX RR, PE, M&A, GS, MS, and JPM. However, if you weren't coming in with a 3.8+ or didn't network your ass off, you were in extreme jeopardy for recruiting. Moreover, people with 3.8+s were certainly not guaranteed anything if 1. they didn't have relevant prior internships or 2. were socially awkward.

I can attest because I came from target/semi-target.. Basically each bank has a certain number of people they take from each school cause they wanna be diverse and their are alot of alum representatives. Even BX still hires from Harvard, Wharton and a few other ivys with such few spots.

So you can imagine that if hundreds of kids want these jobs it is extremely competitive. The only advantage from a target like Harvard is that there are more spots available but even then it's not by a huge amount that it becomes an extreme advantage. That's why u see only 35% getting bb/elite and the rest are doin crappy internships

I agree, I go to Wharton and I can tell you that I really think that the advantage of going to a top target is really overstated. Yes, the process did work out for me and a lot of my friends, but I'd say as a whole, going to a school like Wharton doesn't lock up much for you. Yes, there are more spots available, but there are also a lot more kids gunning for those spots, so there have to be lots of losers too. Is that as true at Princeton? I don't think so. I can't really speak to other schools, so I could be completely off here. However, consensus in my friend group (which consists of kids in the top of Wharton) is that we are all not sure we would turn down schools like Princeton or Harvard or Dartmouth for Wharton if we knew what we know now. I do think there is something to be said for having an undergraduate background in finance/accounting that Wharton teaches, but I don't think that background gets you all that much in the recruiting process. Whether it helps in the actual banking job, I guess I'll find out this summer.

It's quite sad tho if youve invested so much in a business background like Wharton only to not get a BB/Elite boutique internship. Rather go to a Princeton or top LAC where fewer kids are gunning for these jobs.

I think it's also the current environment we are in where we have so fewer spots and with all the resources available on the internet such as the M&I guide we have kids from completely liberal backgrounds who can talk about LBOs.

So the advantage of a Wharton kid coming into these interviews is very limited.

Keep in mind that interviews differ depending on background.

Wharton, Stern, Ross kids get drilled with technicals because they're expected to know them. (Ross, I heard from a friend, Wharton and Stern I know from various sources all agreeing on their experiences)

My friends at Dartmouth and Brown who are currently doing BB IBD SA this summer did not get asked a single technical question - basically all fit and a couple brainteasers - except one (can you walk me through the 3 financial statements?). They were both non-economics majors if that made a difference.

Not impossible, but unfortunately much harder to get into IBD coming from a non-target, especially with regards to the summer analyst program. Undergrad matters progressively less and less in banking, however (i.e. pretty much impossible for sophomore rotationals, but becomes completely irrelevant if you're 35, have succeeded and are perceived to be an industry expert), so if you just do well where you are, go to a top ten biz school program, and nail the interviews, you'll have as good a shot as anyone.

Reference link below for incoming list of summer analysts at my bank.

http://www.ibankingoasis.com/node/5768

Honestly, I have no idea. My (completely unsubstantiated) view is that it is highly variable and heavily dependent on desk placement, with some desks not concerned with academic pedigree anywhere remotely close to the extent of IBD and others that take it into even greater consideration.

A better guy to ask on this board would be a trader who goes by Jimbo, though.

It is possible to enter the sophomore rotational program if you are from a non-target. Harder to get in? Of course.

It's more than hard. Hard to get in is if you're an unconnected white male with a 3.94 coming from Princeton. Anything else and the level of statistical significance is so low that it is (statistically speaking) impossible.

Sophomore Rotationals this year:

3 Harvard 2 Wharton 2 Duke 1 UMich 1 MIT 1 Brown 1 Howard

Keep in mind that of these, all but one were minorities and/or women. Plus, the one white male is attending the alma mater of the CEO.

But, if you do manage to get into the sophomore program, you are all but guaranteed a summer analyst slot and have your choice of the top groups. Of all the sophomores here last year, only three didn't come back, and that's because two had been poached by Goldman and one went with Blackstone.