At what point do you give up?
Hi all,
I’m sure I’m like many others on this site aiming to break into Investment Banking and have struggled to find the right offer. I am 25 and almost three years removed post grad and have been in the private wealth sector at a BB and obtained my series 7, 63, and 65 licenses along the way. I have been networking like crazy the past 6 months and I’m exhausted. I expanded from the traditional submit resume and wait and see approach months ago and have been consistently cold emailing and calling boutiques and mid market companies here in SF. I hate to be the guy who is whining about the struggle and not getting the opportunity but if I haven’t gotten the traction now, when will I ever??
Just wanted to hear from some other monkeys who went about the non-traditional route and about how long it took them to break into IB... or some monkeys who decided to give up and do something else....or any other advice would be appreciated.
Take a vacation called B-school and try again.
If you look up other threads about people struggling to get IB jobs after college, the consensus is basically to go to B school to get into IB as an associate.
Have you only applied to the US or have you looked abroad (e.g. UK)?
Give up or keep going ? (Originally Posted: 04/24/2010)
hi guys, I am a graduate from the University of Auckland.
i didnt do any internship before, am now seeking for relevant internship tp spin off my resume abit.
The questtion is ...i am out of school now and my bet is to apply for the HK Graduate position at banks which opens in Nov . What is my chances ??
I thought people only take interns if they are still in school........
Just apply- who cares what your chances are......
Go for broke ay ?
pretty darn slim, unfortunately
of course, i can only go by what you've written there
have you tried aus? you can go for an internship for the aus summer (which is unlikely cos you're out of school, no matter how strong you are)
or use your networks to get a job in aus, and work your way up from there
I am in Hong Kong right now, I am having an internship interview at the chinese IBD for institutional sales desk intern.
So you've already got an interview? Work on prep then.
just to prep you - sales and IBD are different - easy mistake to make at the beginning...
IBD is corporate finance, advising big companies about ways they can come up with money, or make strategic plays.
Sales is related to trading, selling products to HNWIs, big funds, big investors or in your case big institutions.
Good luck buddy
Should I give up on ibanking? (Originally Posted: 10/25/2011)
I'm a junior going to UC Berkeley. I was denied from Haas and I am now majoring in Economics.
The problem is that my GPA is atrocious, a 3.0. I had a 3.2 GPA going into my spring semester but I suddenly began exhibiting symptoms of a serious medical condition that made it difficult to attend class and stay focused. The condition also prevented me from getting an internship over the summer, but it's now under control and taken care of.
My EC's are nothing special and I've only interned at a start up during the summer of my freshman year as a sales intern.
I know a 3.2/3.0 is really bad and neither of them would be sufficient enough for a decent shot at an ibanking career which is why I'm asking if I should just give up. I'm planning to bring my GPA back to a 3.2+ after this semester as I'm doing well in my classes including an introduction to finance course.
What should I do? Should I just give up? Would it be feasible to network with boutique banks for a summer internship and then hopefully obtain a full time offer from a bulge bank? Or would boutique banks also deny me?
All the large banks are hosting info sessions next week so I really don't know what to do.
Thanks, brothers.
It's only worth giving up if you would be satisfied doing anything else...I graduated with a 3.2 from a worse school with 2 PWM internships but am still trying hard to break in..
a boutique is definitely the way to go and I would start cold calling/e-mailing regional ones and propose an unpaid, short-term internship.
this is what I have been doing.
Your career is a marathon and not a race. Granted it always sucks to not get what you want the first time around, but the reality is no one always succeeds the first time around. You have to ask yourself how badly do you want to be in banking and why do you want to be? If you're truthful with yourself and want to be in it for the right reasons, you'll figure out a way to get there whether it's now or a few years down the line. If you're just using banking as a stepping stone for "success," I assure you there are plenty of successful people that don't give a rats ass about banking.
That being said, your GPA is low but certainly not the end of the world. One, definitely focus on your grades. If you have a 3.0 now, you can definitely raise it a before you graduate to probably a 3.1 or 3.2. At that point, you can always put your major GPA on your resume to show a significant improvement and there will be a little more flexibility as far as GPA cut off goes. Next is obviously experience. Cold call, email, reach out to alumni, etc. Do whatever you need to do to get momentum building. You'll eventually come across someone that's willing to take a risk and give you a chance. Use OCR to find an internship during the school year and hopefully later a summer internship. Attend every single networking event possible and show face. Be genuine, be hungry, be humble, and be patient. Remember, the people that attend networking events (as "hosts" from their respective employers) generally volunteered to be there and are more willing to help out.
All I can tell you is that from personal experience, there's always always a way to break in. Up to you to learn to create opportunities for yourself and have the patience/perseverance to keep on pushing.
what about an MSF at claremont mckenna?
If you have a 3.0 now, even just a 3.4 for your last two years will bring it up to 3.2. Hit the books and get after it.
If you are really passionate about something, NEVER give up, NEVER! Cuz you will only be successful, if you are passionate about your work.
!
you will have a very tough time getting that first round interview in banking with a 3.0 GPA... I had a 3.5 GPA and I managed to get just one interview.
Relevant experience would counteract the low gpa. I had a 3.3 with two boutique IB internships and landed a ton of interviews. Network hard and try to get some relevant experience under your belt even if it's from a regional boutique.
Thanks NeedtoDecide, it was inspiring to read. I will go to those banking sessions next week and I will find an intern position next semester. If all of you guys think I can still break in, I won't give up.
And about the MSF at claremont, isn't that really difficult to get into? I think I could meet the GMAT requirements but the GPA is killing me...
I believe Claremont's average is around 3.6 GPA/730 GMAT. So that'll probably be kind of tough. I'm sure you could get into a good MSF at another school, though.
I’m not going to lie to you, the fact that you are making this post kind of makes me feel like you’re not too dedicated at all.
Like a previous poster said, hit the books. I graduated with a 3.5 from a school not even close to Berkeley and got in (most people couldn’t pronounce my schools name in interviews). Just keep after it and something will turn up. It's not going to be easy. You will need to network A TON and really push hard for your grades as well as landing interviews, but it’s definitely possible.
This, I also came from an absolute non-target. It can be done with balls and determination.
you've already given up with that attitude.
Networking is the most cirital part for someone in your shoes. The GPA will hurt you no doubt, but if you can build those relationships, it will pay off. My experiences with GPA, is that they are more of a filter for 1st round interviews. So if you can get those relationships/networks in to get that 1st round interview, then its all about your skills from that point on. I know of a bunch of kids that had a 3.3-3.4ish GPA that got IB jobs over kids that had 3.8+ solely because those 3.8 kids didnt have the social/interview skills. The GPA/resume gets you the tnerivew and gets you int he door. The rest of it is on you to wow them
like gr8ng89 said ... start netoworking and "building you story" ... basically youre gonna need to do something to show them that even though your GPA isnt as high as the ivy grad with a 4.0, youre going to do better then he/she could ... check out mergers and inquisitions ...the guy on there has some pretty good advice on how to just construct an easy way to introduce yourself/give your background during interviews. Or just check around on here ..there are plenty of good posts relating to that type of material
Never give up.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but there are some apps up on my university site already, is there any point in applying to OCR if I'm in a similar situation to OP, have a similar GPA and am going to get screened out first round anyway?
why wouldnt u apply?
if you know what you are talking about and network with the right people and those people know that you're bright ...youre not going to get screened out right away
its going to take more convincing for sure since youre not coming from an ivy or top program, but the fact is if you get someone to have coffee or talk over the phone, you need to show them that you do actually know what youre talking about even though you dont come from the typical al background. Once that person is sold on you they can throw their weight to make sure you get in front of the right people. First round is hr and most people can get through this so long as you know the basics of the role, the group, the culture, big issues/news etc ... i doubt youll be screened out by them if youre qualified ... Once you make it past that and in front of the bigger dogs thats when its on you to impress people. Its an up hill battle but if you got your facts straight and really really show that you want this, youll get something eventually.
Serious Question...Should i give up. (Originally Posted: 06/17/2012)
I have a question in regards to should i give up. Please forgive the mini-novel you're about to read, skim through, what have you.
I'm in the process of graduating college. I know for many that is not a big deal, as most of the people on here have graduated with a few degrees. It is a big deal for me. I'll be 28 when i graduate this fall. Yes, you read that right, 28! Ideally I would have graduated when i was 22 like most of the other kids in my class but that wasn't the case. I've had a string of bad luck and misfortune in my 20's.
It all started my second semester of my freshman year. My mother did her best to put all three of us through college. We all were in school at the same time. The beginning of my second semester freshman year, I found out that i wouldn't have enough aid to cover my housing. I was forced with a decision. Work the entire winter break to help out with some of the costs or take a semester off. I decided to work. When i arrived at school, i had enough for housing, not books. I decided books were more important than housing at that point. I figured i would just stay with classmates in the dorms the semester. In mid-march of that semester, the RA found out and reported it. I was banned from the dorms. With nowhere to go, I slept on a park bench for a month. I would stay at school in the library until 2am, and would sleep at the park bench outside of school. My clothes were at a friends and i was allowed to take showers there. I did this for about a month. I ended up finishing the semester with not so great grades but, good enough.
Then my mother lost her job and i was forced to support her. The cost of living where i live is not cheap. I wanted to get back on the right track and school but, given the circumstances, i couldn't. I needed to work more and take less classes.
Over the last 7 years i have been fortunate enough to have a position that has allowed me to live. I run a boutique services firm. I do well for a person without a degree. I typically work between 70-90 hour weeks. But something is missing.
My dream has always been an analyst with an investment bank. I didn't care what bank. I just want to be an analyst. Is this feasible? Should I just count my blessings and thats it? Should I give up? What would my chances be. I don't have the greatest grades. I did graduate from a Tier-1 school.
I'm not looking for a pity party. Things happen in life that we can't control. I understand that. Oddly enough, I wouldn't trade any of my experiences over the last 10 years for any amount of money. Certain things that we go through will test the willpower of an individual. When you make it through those things, its priceless. I merely played the hand i was dealt.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Happy Father's Day to all the Dad's!
About Me: 28, Economics Major with Concentration in accounting.
Anything is possible, and everything boils down to how far you're willing to go for what you want.
Serious question though, what kind of boutique is this and what do you do? You should elaborate at length about your professional experiences and potential strengths if you want help from anyone here.
Every great story on the planet happened because someone decided not to give up.
People like you are what America is made of. God bless, and I hope your beautiful country gets more people like you to take it out of the financial mess that it is in now.
I feel like a complete idiot right now for all of the times that I bit**ed about things that now look extremely, extremely, extremely insignificant. I salute you and deeply respect you.
DO NOT give up. Make your case heard. People like you are what America and this industry needs. You can't quit! In your informational interviews, if your GPA comes up, explain your situation in a matter-of-fact way, just so he/she doesn't think you're looking for pity.
Don't give up. You sound like an awesome guy - shoot for the stars and you'll reach them. I won't tell you that it's easy - it wasn't easy for me coming from where I was to where I am - but it's doable. If you have the dream, make it reality. Let no one and no idea hold you back - the world is yours.
Would you really be able to give up if someone told you to stop pursuing your goal right now? I mean, you either want it or you don't. Perhaps, the timing isn't right. Perhaps, IB isn't the answer for you. After everything you've been through, I don't think you'd be able to live with yourself if you did stop right now.
Just make sure to live a life without any regrets. Don't let anyone or anything, including your past, stop you from going after what you want.
Kudos to you and your spirit/determination. You are also very lucky because you have one heck of a mom!
The first and simple answer to your question is NO, you shouldn't give up; why on earth would you do that? You can be (obviously by now!) whatever you want to be, so start with analyst if that's what you want. Now, a few questions for you: where are you based? What bank do you want to work for? Any particular division or just any part of any investment firm? I am often in charge of hiring (global Investment firm) so....send me your resume.
This thread makes me realise how lucky I was not to grow up in the US. Don't get me wrong I love it and planning to emigrate soon, but these days I'm earning money; I grew up in similar circumstances as the OP and would have had the same difficulties if I was in the US. The rule of thumb seems to be earn or be elimnated. Sometimes this brings out its best qualities, but here it brings out its worst.
Back on topic, you could put money aside from your company and try and get an MBA from a good school, thus giving you a well connected careers department for IB associate roles? I'm still in ugrad (so take my advice with a pinch of salt) but I've heard that they look upon entrepreneurship very well. I also think your company would look pretty sexy on your resume for associate roles becuase its tied in with IB.
Hello All:
Many Thanks for the word's of encouragement and support. Sorry I can't address each post individually. I'm not an entrepreneur per se. I'm a director at a staffing firm. When i started this job I was way way below the bottom man on the totem pole. Through hard work and good fortune, i was given an opportunity to showcase my talents. I was given a department to run and asked to grow the business. My boss asked for 20 percent by the end of the fiscal year. I grew it by 125% in the first 6 months. My department has grown at a 23% average for the last 7 years. I thoroughly enjoy my job. I am given the opportunity to make a difference in many lives. Thats number one. The pay, while good/great, is secondary. I'm able to pay my bills, put money away, invest, and help out at home. Can't ask for more.
I don't want to or plan to give up. I just don't want any regrets.I just see that this blog/platform is filled with knowledgeable individuals when it comes to the finance sector. I am just looking for advice on how to get the interview. What companies are more open to working with raw talent. Things of that nature. Any advice really. I understand the GPA and School will be an issue. Business school is not an option at this moment.
My situation is no different than a lot of other people living in this country and throughout the world. I'm not special! I hope my situation has given someone a different outlook. When we bitch and moan with things dont go right in our job, trust me i do the same, remember...it could be worse. :)
Thanks for reading.
Go get em'
Never, ever quit. Life's an emotional roller coaster, I think you can weather the ride.
Give up or be more persistent? (Originally Posted: 02/08/2013)
Hey guys,
I'm been on hold for almost a month now at a low tier BB. Sent two follows up to HR and 1 to my interviewer. No response from HR but interviewer responded and told me he was looking into it almost two weeks ago. Should I follow up again and be more persistent or basically give up?
Yeah, but also look into other options at boutiques as well. Bad market at BB's now. Worth following up though
Would it be looked at being too desperate if I do?
You are on the waitlist and they keep interviewing or they extended an offer and are waiting for that person to accept or reject their offer. Something similar happened with UBS when I interviewed with them. Had an interview, nothing after two weeks. I called and the lady told me to wait another week. I emailed after two weeks and she told me they were still interviewing and that she promises to get back to me as soon as they are done. almost 3 months have passed since then and nothing from her :)
would it be okay to call one of my interviewers that i followed up with?
don't understand what kind of magical answers you are looking for. you're on hold meaning they are going to wait for the 'yes' people to accept or reject which often takes a while, as late as march-april for some of the targets that are protected by OCR. high chance that you won't hear until then (may not hear back at all), equally high chance that it'll be a no - usually if its not a yes within a few days, it's a no.
I'm not really looking for a magical yes but ways I can move myself up on the hold list when a spot does open up. Just wanted to see if anyone got positive feedback after being persistent. Also, I don't want to come off as desperate at the same time.
can i still make it into banking at what point do i give up please advise (Originally Posted: 05/16/2013)
.
Did you consider an MMS/MSF?
I considered it, but decided that it just would not be worth it. As mentioned, I come from a relatively low-middle class family. It would only be worth going to the absolute top programs, and I found those to be excessively expensive (MIT) or I don't qualify (Princeton). But it was more of a money / time / cost-benefit analysis issue than anything
If cost is such a huge concern why not: Duke Fuqua MMS; UVA Masters in Commerce; Villanova MSF; CMC MSF; WUSTL MSF or Vandy MSF? They all have financial aid. Villanova is about 32 and has half tuition fellowships.I think the branding would be a big boost.
If your resume is as impressive as you describe it to be then you have a better chance with networking. You must continue networking. I cannot stress it enough. Coming from a non-target, networking is your only chance. Reach out to anyone that also has a non-target background, tell them your story and prove to them how badly you want to break into the industry. Don't waste your time with online job postings, thousands of people apply online for one job and their resumes go straight to the trash can. Your chances with online job posting are one in a thousand. Be persistent, offer to meet up with bankers in pers`on for lunch or coffee. Also, in the meantime find a job to support yourself while you network, take any job that is available, have some income coming in so you can buy yourself some more time.
network network network
also, are you aiming only for the US?
if you knew for example German, with your profile you would probably be a strong candidate at major banks in Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc.; same goes with middle east (Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. usually do not require knowledge of Arabic) and other regions as a matter of fact, I would encourage applying to the positions worldwide - you could get better brand name job at some major bank, than just doing IB at a random no-name boutique in US, although thats not bad, of course
just tailor some extremely nice cover letters and send those emails and keep networking in the US
good luck
Thanks for the responses thus far - would appreciate any more and anecdotes of those who were in similar shoes. Yes, my credentials are pretty much as I describe it and as far as I know my interviewing skills are excellent. It's too bad that things kind of fell through. I don't think I'll be able to work a second job on top of this boutique IB internship since hours average around 80, and I will work some weekends.
To answer the poster above, yes, I am targeting US only.
BuMP
Bump - anyone?
Do I have the right approach? Is this really a pipe dream or do I have a realistic chance? Am I in a good or bad situation overall? Any advice, stories, feedback, leads, or information would highly be appreciated.
Look, you're background seems decent so even if you're a non target if you're résumé screams passion for ib opportunities should start opening up. Maybe you are doing something wrong.
I think first thing I would do is take a step back and try to remember what I've done wrong in the past so I do not repeat these same mistakes. Get a friend in the industry to review your résumé and review how you're networking and finding your job. You could be busting your chances because you're sounding really desperate.
The next thing is it sounds like you're set on ib and so I wouldn't give up if I were you. There are enough survivor stories on this site that could help motivate you and keep your spirit up. Also if income is an issue look for something that can pay you while you look for an investment banking job. I have seen plenty of people on LinkedIn who are now analysts that did a year either in valuation shops like D&P or big 4 audit or advisory.. The point is to never give up and if you are hungry enough you should land your dream job.
PM if you have any specifics
Thanks for this answer. I've taken a huge step back and wondered where I went wrong, and spoke to nearly everyone in my network who I knew asking where I 'went wrong.' I asked for brutally honest, constructive advice, and pretty much everyone told me I've probably had instances where someone was slightly better than me and/or I just didn't luck in my favor on superdays. Or that the process got really political and they picked a kid with the stronger connection.
Part of it also is that breaking in from a true non-target school is really, really tough. My non-target sends maybe one analyst a year to a reputable/brand name investment bank (even one per year is a huge accomplishment at my school). There's absolutely no recruiting here for finance positions (one bank comes for operations, if that even counts as finance...), and it's not getting any better. I am NOT using my school as a stigma and a reason for my lack of a full-time IB role, but just take that into consideration... because it does play a factor - it really is that tough out there.
Any first/second hand stories of people breaking in from similar situations would be appreciated... thank you. Until then I will keep working hard at my boutique IB internship
Did you cold network last summer? I may be in a very similar situation next year. I graduate in the fall and am networking this summer. What sort of feedback were you getting from your networking? I've had a few guys straight up say we will see if we can get you an interview. My GPA is below 3.5 and I am a nontarget fwiw. I am not IB or bust. I have guaranteed FT backups in finance.
Have you been aiming at boutiques, BB, and MM banks? At first, I was skeptical about "wasting time" networking with BBs, but I have actually made some connections with some really nice guys, and even if I don't get an interview with them, they have given me great feedback to improve my chances at other firms.
From what I gather on here, lateraling is pretty hard.
Would your boss be willing to put you in touch with some connections?
In my situation, I'm IB or bust. I got lots of good feedback from networking - some people just didn't have the pull, others just didn't want to bother with it, and etc. I cast my net pretty wide - BB, MM, and boutiques. I did cold call, which is part of how I got my boutique internship in the first place. I've done not only cold calls but trips to NYC, emails, phone chats, lunch/coffee/dinner/ etc... you name it, I've done it.
When can I give up? When can I be sure all summer spots are taken? (Originally Posted: 01/16/2007)
I'm referring to the bulge-bracket. I'm a nontarget so I won't bbe doing my final rounds until like the end of Feb.
Never give up...always network...always...its a perpetual process.
thank you for that healthy serving of bullshit, Kasavnova. anyone else?
i'm serious here. Bear, for example, is having to cut down on their quotas for nontargets to make room for candidates from mich and wharton.
there are not going to be a lot of spots left for nontargets by the time my super saturday comes up.
lol, anytime.
If you come from a non-target, your best bet is via networking. If you really want to break into the industry, keep networking.
fools. I made it past the first round at a couple BBs. Networking is irrelevant at this point, and furthermore i am NOT asking for your advice. Just asking WHEN i can be sure that the spots reserved for non-target students have dried up. Some places have filled 60% of their summer class already.
Find out when the target superday will be, call the HR contact and tell them you will be in town, buy your own plane ticket (will save their budget), and ask to be included. I've seen it work.
HR usually is more friendly than most contacts you might have gained through networking anyway. Don't be afraid to harass them a little in order to get in the door with them. The more they see your name, usually the better they remember it to help push your resume through. Getting an HR rep interested in your is key
give up hope? (Originally Posted: 10/07/2010)
I had an IB analyst interview last friday with a BB...if I haven't heard back yet should I just assume I have been forsaken by the bank in question?
I actually felt it all went quite well....really connected with the group head i was interviewing with and a few of the associates. They all encouraged me to email or call them with any questions in the future which i did (emailed a few of them anyway) and got very positive responses.
sigh....fml
If it has been a full week you can give HR a call just to "check in" and see when you should expect to hear from them. They could just have you on the "hold" list and are waiting to see if any they have extended offers to don't accept.
It happens.
So if somebody else doesn't accept, and I've been put on hold, do they bring me in for the 2nd crop of "2nd rounds"?
Should I give up? (Originally Posted: 10/11/2010)
Hey everyone: You must get a lot of these "what are my chances threads?" and are sick to death of them. I don't care, I just want someone to tell me what I should do.
I've applied to every legit prop trading firm and have yet to see any interest. I just got a rejection today after calling several times at a few firms, and that was only after being hounding someone for over a week, which I hate to do. And no, it was not because I was mean to HR or something, the process is just slow I guess.
But I see little interest from these firms in hiring me, and I don't know whether to just call it quits. I hung around Ceres for awhile; that went no where. I applied through my alma-mater (semi-target school) - that has lead to no results.
Someone just tell me to throw in the towel so I can get on with my life. Thanks.
Throw in the towel and get on with your life.
Every day I'm faced with a set back at school, whether it be a conflict with a team member for a marketing project, an unexpected event which takes away from my much needed studying time, or a surprise quiz in Intermediate micro that is just a bitch considering these things are worth 15% of my grade. While I may not be at your stage, I still am technically as my grades are a determining variable for these firms to even let me interview. I screwed up a couple of mid terms and they're worth 25% of my grade - It would be convenient to just say "Fuck it, GE or J&J FMP, they take a 3.0 GPA minimum, I'll just do that and try to transition." But that's nonsensical and a sign of weakness.
To get to the point: When faced with hardship you don't merely give in and "move on", you take a step back, analyze the situation, spot areas of weakness, restructure, and carry on. No one who's achieved anything valuable in his life has just given up on trying to achieve. Did Hilton just sell his remaining solvent hotels and retire or open up a grocery store during the depression? No, he restructured his approach and moved ahead. Keep at it, nothing is easy unless it's of menial worth.
Good luck.
Have you applied for any full-time clerking positions? There are some guys who never went to college that have started there and moved on to being traders. Quite rare, but if you do have a good background, it is worth considering if you can't imagine doing anything else. It'll probably take twice as long to become a trader as it would otherwise, but it is better than nothing and could lead to other opportunities.
Most of the positions that I saw sort of like that were full time IT positions - ie all back office is IT stuff. A lot of that I would not say that I'm actually qualified for.
I think most of the actual clerk work is done by TA's (at least at the firms I was looking at). Other than administrative assistant - where they want 10 years experience as being an aa at a hedge fund or financial firm. Ugh.
By the time I find a job I think I'll probably be unemployable because my skills will be out of date.
It took me about 17 months (January 2003 thru May 2004) of trying (and getting rejected) and applying (and getting rejected) and interviewing (and getting rejected) again and again before I got a single offer as assistant options-trader.
I cannot know what your chances are, what your personal situation is or what your (pain) threshold is; but personally, at the time, I was perfectly willing to go through an additional 17 months of the same (getting rejected again and again) to get the position. That said, if I had actually hit 33 months of trying with no offers at all, I probably would have thrown in the towel (never mind that last month with the prized job at the end..!)...
The best thing I can say is: you need to see what it is you can (and cannot) endure, and make a decision (or set a target, or figure out your "next best alternative" options).
Good luck (after all, it IS all down to luck!)...!
Whoops - edited to correct a date
TAs do most clerking for sure, but there are a fair number of firms have a few full time clerks here and there, especially on the floor to help get hedges from the floor to upstairs.
Why prop? Have you looked at market making?
I've applied for all the "independent" non-BB firms. I don't really know what BB's are particularly good in trading (other than Citi), but I think it might actually be harder to get in. I don't know.
I've applied to about the top 25ish firms in all areas of prop (DRW, JSC, Jump, Spot, CTC, SIG, etc etc), so I have a cross section of the industry I feel. Basically all the firms that were mentioned in that monstrous "best of prop" thread that's on this board. And yes, I know they all do very different things in their spaces (ie HF and non-HF but also FI, equities, etc). So yeah.
Most prop firms (pretty much every single one discussed on this site) are market makers...... Prop shop = proprietary shop = they trade with their own, private capital.
Throw in the towel and get on with your life.
Read 4-Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss. Very inspring.
"If at first you don't succeed,…"
…change up your strategy playa.
Get the fuck up and go through a Rocky montage or something. The ex post probability of getting an interview is 0 or 1 but the ex ante probability is miniscule no matter your qualifications. Blame the inflation of the internet, the shitty job market for alternatives and finance jobs, and the press wall street has gotten for high pay.
Any job in finance, in this job market, is more like a marathon than a sprint. Keep networking, keep getting your resume out there. Talk to people, read bloomberg and other news. Read a few books so you know your shit so your networking isn't terrible. Keep your out of finance interests sharp so you can not be the most boring person in the world when you are networking. Talking about the Jets game is more likely to get you consideration than three more great trading ideas when you're already eating lunch with a guy who trades NYMEX crude for a living. Once you can convince him you're competent, there's really very little you can do to impress him. He trades crude for a living, how the hell are you going to know more about the one thing he cares about than he will?
If you absolutely fucking have to, sit for the CFA. It won't make you more appealing as a prop trader, most likely, but it may add a feather to a resume that lacks one. Again, I don't think it's a good use of your time, but if you need it, you need it.
Of course the most important thing is to be employed, if only to show your future prop trading bosses that you can handle a job and pressure and so you don't go hungry.
If you want to be told what to do, from what I gathered, trading is not the profession for you. If you got drunk and regretted posting this the next day, then I'd say that you should adapt. Find other opportunities while honing your skill set. Continue to network and try to get as close to trading as you can and keep working at it. If you don't care about it that much and would rather be doing something easy and not as fulfilling then, yea, you should quit.
Become an entrepreneur or something. Just cus a prop trading firm doesn't hire you doesn't mean your career is over. Get inspired and come up with a good idea. We can't answer your questions for you.
Haha Quit...if thats your thought process it probably means you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
Don't quit, just assault the castle from a different direction. Why not look for an unpaid internship in something finance related to keep building your resume. Every 4 months or so go to a new shop. Look at getting an MSF. Look into the CMT designation. Pillage LinkedIn, your alumni network, cold calls, whatever. Maybe look at taking something closely related.
If you are in Chicago try and get something small on the CME. If you are interested in commodities why not look at Cargill, ADM, etc. Get related experience so you can spin your story better. If you have been attacking the 30 largest trading shops why not take a break, get some different experience and then hit them up again. A lot of times NO really means NOT NOW.
I wouldn't give up, just change directions. Keep the faith dude!
There are many roads into prop trading. Why not try for other areas that would help you transfer into it? I know a few of my friends started in banking after 2 years and then went into prop trading. If you're really a rock star, I don't see why 1 year. If you're asking if you should give up so people can convince you not, then you're looking at the wrong place since a huge chunk of people here are your competition.
If you really want it, then you'll become crafty enough to realize that just because you don't get into prop trading as your first job doesn't mean you're automatically excluded from it down the line
Shall i just give up on this! (Originally Posted: 07/17/2011)
so i more or less have accepted that i might not have gotten the job. I was told by an MD that i am an ideal candidate...etc, interviewed with two VPs and 2 MDs, sent thank u notes, follow up emails...and its has been almost 2 months and cant get anything out of them...not a yes neither a no!!! i contacted HR and she told me that there is someone with more experience than i who they are considering but she doesnt want to close it for me....i then emailed the MD and asked him for feedback and stated my continued interest in the job, he replied coping the hiring manager saying they will get back to me asap and he thanks me for my continued interest. 1 week later i emailed the hiring manager, in a way asking for feedback....and he said they are still havent finished the process!!! i have never come across something like this before, this is one of the top IBs....i accept that i might not have gotten the job but why is it that they arent saying that to me!!! i think i got to the point of annoying them just to get an answer but nothing!!!
why arent they saying no!?!
Chill out.
You're are probably getting annoying, and I would stop that asap. Wait a few more days and send HR a polite/humble email.
No one wants a guy in the office who will be up their ass all day questioning them.
didnt contact the hiring managers that much! maybe twice in the past three times in the past two months and was mainly by email...didnt want them to think i lost interest! maybe thats why they are keeping me...not sure whats going on
I agree with the above "chill out" comment.
In regard to your status, there is likely another canidate that they are waiting to hear back from that they prefer over you. The good news is that they seem like they like you. The bad news is that the other canidate seems to have the upper hand.
MD- give up? (Originally Posted: 09/24/2011)
Am I now at the point of annoying an MD?
I had an info interview with months ago over the phone, then met with him over the summer (md at a top boutique). They both went pretty well.
But since then he's ignored me. I emailed him twice in late august/september. I tried calling him three times this past week (M,T,F), but his secretary kept "taking a message for me", and I never heard back from him.
Obviously, one or two missed emails can be attributed to being too busy at the time. But it seems like this pretty intentional now. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Should I try again this Monday? Or is it time to just finally move on? I've networked pretty extensively, so it's not a huge loss I guess if I don't get to interview for this bank, but still I obviously would if I could. For those in the industry, any insight about wy he would be ignoring me now?
Thanks
he is proably busy traveling. Keep on him once a week.
I don't think he's traveling, every time I called the secretary would go "check" and report back that he's on a conference call. Wouldn't it just be easier to say he's traveling?
It's simple, your call and//or meeting in-person didn't go well at all
It means he is not hiring.
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