When should you give up on IB? feedback & thoughts?
background info,
top 50 state school, not a finance/accouting major, got lucky and did a Summer Analyst program at a BB summer of '08 in IB. then came Financial crisis...very few offers given out. (the kids who got offers all had connections, example...one kid was the god son of the ceo, the others had fathers in high positions at various firms that were clients of the BB).
... Senior year, tried to get interviews at other banks for full time positions. Interviewed with a few boutiques/small banks, still no offers. After graduation, continue to network, and interview, got a few interviews at less respectable banks, start up p/e shop, restructuring boutique, and a few BB ...still no offer. (biggest problem is people getting over the fact that I'm not a finance/accounting major, i didn't go to wharton/ivy, and that I didn't get an offer from my internship).
Now full time analyst program recruitment has come to an end as banks start internship recruitment in the spring semester. Remember I already graduated, thus summer analyst programs are out of the question.
...I got a job offer at a big4 accounting firm, but its auditing...NOT management consulting, still have time to decide. ...I have interviewed at a temp agency that places a lot of "trading assistants", but from what I hear on other forums is that the hope to become a full-time trader is slim.
Overall, I'm incredibly stressed, as my friends have all started working, earning money, going to grad (law/med) school, and I"m still doing interviewing!....every interview I get, I get excited and convince myself that this is my big break, and all this networking and interviewing is going to pay off, but when do you throw in the hat? Where do you draw the line between being optimistic and realistic?
Well you should accept the offer and continue building your network on the side, when the job market picks up again, that could be your shot. I wouldn't recommend turning down an offer in this economy.
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Take the accounting offer and keep looking / networking on the side. Chances are it will be hard to find anything else and you don't want to be out of work for that long.
It's a bad market despite some FT hiring, just take any job and break into banking once the market improves in 2-3 years.
You're not alone... I have a friend that is super depress
^^super depressed for not getting a banking gig? gimme a fucking break, it's just a job.
OP, you have a job offer so quit whining about your friends getting paid and going to law school. Also, not to be a dick, but you had your shot at banking. You come from a top 50 school, are NOT a finance major, and you still had a chance to prove yourself. You just didn't take advantage of it. Don't blame it on the job market because I know there were kids who still got job offers that summer without connections. You just had to want it bad enough (and yes some luck too).
Also, be happy with a big4job. It's good money. No it's not banking money, but for fuck's sake it's still more money than most people earn. Not to mention the fact that you're only 22-23 and will be making that much.
There are kids who graduate college who get jobs at 40k/yr and make it work. They don't go on a forum and complain that their offer only states 60k or whatever.
What you do for a living does not define who you are. Get your head out of your ass and grow a pair.
I'm just so sick of all these people posting complaining about not finding a job or worse, not getting the one they wanted. You're all way too obsessed over what everyone else thinks.
Totally agree with buttercup, despite not loving the username :)
That said, it is a big world out there and it is all relative.
God bless us all.
buttercup...what's your deal? Every post until yours had good and revelant advice. The person that deserves to be bitched at is not the OP, but you. The OP was very reasonable, not whining, and did not ask you go off on a preachy tangent.
A lot of people are in his situation. If they are whining, then bash them. But a very civil question by someone in need of advice deserves a civil - and relevant - response.
+props to buttercup
Given that you already graduated, it will be hard to land a BB position because you don't have on-campus recruiting. You could always go Big 4 > MBA > IB. It's not the shortest route but you'll eventually get there. If you really want to start out in IB, keep looking for boutiques out there and then try and lateral to a MM firm like Harris Williams. Also if you still have access to your school's career website often banks will post looking for graduates to immediately fill 1-2 FT positions.
Not sure why the audience threw so much shit at monkeyinasuit for this comment, I think it is pretty sound advice. Given the OP's position, he is probably best served to accept the audit position at this point. With that in mind, his best options are probably a) continuing to interview for analyst positions, and b) apply for an MBA a few years down the road and hope to transition into IB that way. A few points of clarification:
1 -- Somebody else mentioned that top MBA programs don't typically take auditors because they are a dime a dozen. Realize that your job, while probably the most important part of your MBA application, is only 1 of many components. If you do well on the GMAT and supplement your resume with other great experiences (non-profit involvement), etc., this will give you a significant boost over the others who simply worked their job and didn't continue to build their profiles. 2 - A firm like Harris Williams that has a structured recruiting process will be difficult to lateral into off cycle. While it can be done and certainly has been done, his focus should probably be on the smaller shops with only a handful of guys that are more likely to do a rolling recruiting type of process.
moneyinasuit, good thoughts, however it harder to go from auditing to top mba programs, MBA schools view it as being too routine, less analytical ...from what I read and hear, but anything is possible
smaller boutiques and MM don't have training programs, so in my interviewing experience it becomes very hard to convince them that as a non-finance major i can quickly learn the necessary skills to do the job. if I was a finance major, I probably would have received an offer from one of the many MM and boutiques I interviewed with previously....because they have a hard time retaining employees, they can't afford to loose employees every few years to b-school or better firms, thus they like candidates who they know will likely stay with the firm over the long run (i.e. non-ivy grads). One boutique even told me that they don't hire any analysts that they don't believe they can turn into a VP or higher, they simply can't afford/handle the turnover.
buttercup, I wasn't complaining. It's just that most people say not to give up, keep on networking, applying, trying... As many people know going from auditing to IB is hard/impossible. Finnally people on this forum act like getting into a top mba program is a piece of cake. Competition for admission into these programs becomes more and more competitive every year, especially as medicine becomes less lucrative and law becomes less satisfying, (half of my group at my internship were at one point pre-med or pre-law). Even once you get into a program, it is hard to land a ib/pe/vc gig because so many people are coming in with previous pre-mba experience in these fields. Moral of the story, I wasn't complaining, I was just curious to know others thoughts since the general atmosphere of these forums is to never stop networking or give up, and by accepting an auditing position...i'm not necessarily giving up, but I'm highly reducing my chances in the future, and putting my "potential" IB career on hold many years basically until MBA school, which these days means 4-6 years or more, and thats if you get into a top program. But there are tons and tons of smart top students who don't get into any top mba programs.
a bit off topic, but something that a friend of mine pointed out to me that many people fail to realize is that admission rates at schools are 8-15%, but the same people are applying to the same schools. A guy who did ib and got a 700 on his gmat is going to apply to the same 10 schools as everyone else just like him did. Taking the gmat costs $250 bucks, application fees are 100-250 bucks each school, thus the quality of applicants at all mba schools is very high, nobody will apply just for the hell of it like for undergrad. We always hear about the kid who went to w/h/s/columbia or whatever, but we don't hear about the tons of kids who didn't get in. I only say this because so many people on this forum act like a top mba school is a safety net, its not.
^ Fair enough.
I did go over the top, my B.
monkeyinasuit: do u work in big4? You seem to be pushing Big4 alot, sure its a great job compared to all the jobs out there but it is in no way a guaranteed route to IBD and career switchers in MBA are never guaranteed anything. I agree 100%, if you think you can just "go to a top mba" coming from Big 4, you got another think coming.
hellonyc: Great post, agree 100%. People on here are quite pompous and unrealistic. Top MBA is hard, as is switching to IBD.
i think you're burned out from all the interviews. i'd start working at the big4 and then start interviewing when you feel less stressed.
its only a job kid and it's not as if you're 55.
I know multiple who went from audit to banking, but they went to core schools, such as Berkeley, Stanford, Wharton, UM (I was on the westcoast so this may be more westcoast centric)... So just keep your head up and wait for the right opportunity.
Here are some examples (from linkedin):
Analyst RBC Capital Markets Investment Banking industry 2008 – Present (1 year)
Associate PricewaterhouseCoopers Information Technology and Services industry
June 2006 – February 2008 (1 year 9 months)
Analyst UBS Investment Bank Public Company; UBS; Investment Banking industry 2006 – 2008 (2 years)
Associate PricewaterhouseCoopers Partnership; Accounting industry
2004 – 2005 (2 years)
Analyst, Mergers & Acquisitions Merrill Lynch Public Company; BAC; Financial Services industry January 2005 – July 2007 (2 years 7 months)
Systems Analyst, Technology Intergration Deloitte Partnership; Management Consulting industry July 2003 – December 2004 (1 year 6 months)
Only downfall there is you spend ~2 yrs in a different industry and start up as an analyst.
ButterCup STFU, you're a retard. "There're people who graduate making 40K/year." Yeah there are also people who anally receive at truck stops for 50 bucks, does that mean thats the most one should aspire to?
As to OP, just keep grinding it out. Keep networking, make sure you prepare prepare prepare for interviews. Even if you don't have any, because you could very well reap the benefit of networking with ZERO heads up and the last thing you want to do is get caught off guard. You also want to try to position yourself your current gig (if nothing else comes through) to get the most relevant experience which you can market towards the gig you do want. You've likely missed the boat for BB IBD programs. And once that BB Analyst program door is closed, if you're not inside, you better start looking for another way. Keep networking. Try the boutiques, troll the usual suspects of job boards every single fucking day. Apply for EVERYTHING! Develop the skillset you need to get into IBD independently sicne you wont get it on the job.
And as for when to throw in the towel, there's an easy way to figure that out.... either when you've failed or when you've succeeded.
Some good insights here. Thanks!
Good point. But diversity is key.
techbuyout,
good examples, but keep in mind the fact they went to those schools for undergrad is Ikey . west coast tends to have a much lower concentration of ivy grads/elite schools grads, unlike northeast. In addition the alumni relationships at those schools are key, all it takes is one guy who was from your fraternity, club, sports team to bring you in for a interview. For example USC grads, both at undergrad and mba level get jobs that Harvard, Princeton, Wharton grads typically get, including selective consulting firms like Bain/Mckinsey, as well as banking in LA/SF/silicon valley. Yet the admission requirements for USC are nowhere near to the level of say Harv/Princ/Yale/Penn.
...Ive applied to tons of west coast jobs, they don't want to spend the money interviewing and/or relocating for junior or entry level positions. However I think for all those looking to break into selective career fields on the east coast should consider USC for grad school, they typically look favorably on out of state applicants because so much of their application pool is from so. cal, and their admission criteria and placement statistics are surprisingly highly favorable. Work a few years in california, and then transfer back east if you like. just a thought, i'm not on their promotions committee, lol
...overall i think west coast is whole different ball game. once you are out there its a different story, but getting companies to move you out there is tough, unless you are unique, or there is dire need, its just another hurdle to pass through
It's never too late to apply to IB....except for the OP.
hmm... USC grad school, not a bad idea. Bang more socal sluts than Ashton Kutcher.
Good Lord...dude, I could have swore your original post was my biography. I am in the same boat (nearly) as you and totally understand where you are at. I spend time everyday trying to put myself in a better place and it get old. I was "lucky" enough to score a temp job to pay the bills but I know I will be miserable and it hurts to have to make that concession as far as my career goes but I always try to keep the mindset that you can never fail unless you give up.
Well, I don't plan on giving up. What I have done since not securing a FT offer is go back to the drawing board. You have to rethink your strategy and try to figure out what matters most to you. Maybe you should look at getting a job doing something other than IB at the most reputable firm that you can find...set yourself up to get into the best B school you can and take it from there. As of now, that is my goal. In the meantime, I will continue to scour the job boards everyday, reach out to friends in the industry and keep studying.
Marcus made some great points (as usual). I think you should continue to brush up on your interviewing skills, learn as much about finance & IB as possible, try to learn as much modeling as you can and keep networking. Chances are, if you do get a shot, it will be off cycle and at a smaller place with little to no training available, so the modeling skills could prove to be the difference.
Good luck man, I have it rough too.
Regards
I think one thing that you are missing is the difference between being an analyst and being an associate. If you didn't end up as an IB analyst, why is it that you want to be an associate? Given the extreme difference in "life timing" b/w analyst and associate, are you POSITIVE you'd want to go in post-MBA? Will you have a family by then? The sacrifices made are way different b/w the two - just something to think about for those who didn't become IB analysts.
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