Is S&T still a good career choice? Is there still a demand for S&T summer analysts?
I'm still debating between IB and S&T for upcoming summer analyst recruitment. I go to a target school, but the majority of other students are interested in IB. Actually, many BBs did not even have presentations on S&T and only focused on IB. Does this mean that BBs are not focusing on S&T recruitment anymore? Is S&T still a good career choice given the recent regulation and loss of jobs/profits? I am a math major, and I see trading as a much more exciting, interesting career. I also do not find 100+ hour weeks appealing at all given that I am not that interested in corporate finance. I just want to make sure that I am not screwing up by choosing to go S&T over IB.
I'll be joining a BB in S&T this upcoming summer. There's still a demand for interns, but as you mentioned, many more students are interested in IB. I see it this way: The industry is not what is was pre-crisis, not doubt about it. Banks are still hiring people for their S&T desks, but placement comes primarily through the pool of summer analysts. With that being said, I'm being extremely careful about choosing where I want to rotate this summer since many desks are being more automated or downsized significantly due to regulatory scrutiny. Also be sure to ask HR which desks are hiring, so you don't get screwed.
bump anyone else?
Adding to the abovementioned point, I would argue that there are even some spots for someone not from SA pools. It is definitely not something we can compare to that of the pre-crisis, but it is still driving certain portion of the bank income
Thoughts on S&T careers w/ declining markets-generated revenues? (Originally Posted: 11/30/2015)
With many of the BBs reporting declines and missed revenues in their markets-focused businesses, decreases in headcount, pay, and promotions will certainly follow. This is bound to start immediately (i.e. the MS headlines today, BAML's last month) and continue for several years to come.
I don't create this thread out of disdain or fear, but I do want to create a place for thoughtful messages or experienced (those in S&T for >1 yr and still working) users to share advice - advice on chasing after S&T, divisions to stay away from/pay attention to, banks to stay away from/pay attention to, how to stay ahead of the curve, pros/cons, etc.
This could truly become a hub for these kinds of answers. Thanks in advance, everyone!
I definitely see that at least for the next couple of years its not looking great. Cryan at DB sums up the general idea, a lot of people in finance get paid entrepreneurial returns for just showing up for work. The general trajectory I would expect is the top 10% rainmakers keep making bank, and people who are there to just make sure things run smoothly will get paid less. When banks struggle to generate returns of equity that equal their cost of capital, that money has to come from somewhere. At least for the next couple of years, any earnings are either going to be stolen by regulators via fines or via increased capital requirements.
The knock on effect is that as pay decreases in investment banks, pay in other parts of the financial world tend to follow. If I am a PM at an HF, I can now pay my traders less given their opportunity cost has decreased.
Read the Coalition league tables for S&T and find where banks have the most market share. These are the desks that will be relatively safe compared to others. For example, MS FICC is not their strength, equities is. Additionally, DB, Barcap, and Citi are all Rates/FX leaders. As regulation becomes stricter and ROE suffers, I believe banks will become more lean, specialized machines.
Please refer to the other 100 threads on this. Your question is not novel, and there are plenty of threads from the last 4 months. And don't tell me you wanted to ask this "in light of recent events", nothing in the last 6 months has changed the regulatory/revenue/hiring narrative other than maybe FRTB which is going to get changed dramatically anyway.
Wasn't trying to bother you. Good point. Thanks for the tips, man.
Do S&T opportunities exist anymore? (Originally Posted: 08/10/2012)
Do these jobs exist anymore? I know there are companies still like Jane Street, etc, but how realistic is the attainment of these positions with a quantitative STEM major? How does one even get a foot in the door with an Econ major from NYU CAS? Admittedly, I am okay at math and am willing to work incredibly hard to become proficient and able in it. (Have you heard those disastrous JSC interview stories?)
Does anyone know how to even get an interview for an internship let alone a full time position? I'm willing to network my ass off, but to what avail? I love trading and it's something I want to do but it doesn't seem likely anymore--not when competing against MIT and Yale students.
How realistic is it, having a high Econ GPA from NYU CAS (maybe a math minor but I'm doubtful), good interview skills, a good resume, and good networking opportunities from Stern?
I can't imagine doing anything else in finance beside trade (crazy as it sounds) but how do you compete against people with every competitive edge to their name? Is it too unlikely to get an S&T job?
Interested.
absolutely no fucking chance, unless you picked up some OOP wizardry on the side.
Every BB still has S&T SA programs...it's not any different than it was before, regardless of whatever anyone will try to tell you. Offer rates may be down somewhat, but generally speaking the class sizes are the same. NYU should give you ample opportunities to network with alums and have desks visits. No real reason for you not to have an opportunity.
are you talking about prop trading or S&T at a bank? They are two very different professions.
BBs still hire S&T summer analysts, but conversion rates to FT employment are very low across the street.
ya it was awful. fortunate enough to squeak by with an offer but damn. s&t is doing horrible. as monty said in the other thread trading gets boring after a while. different events affect your markets, but same ole crap day in and day out.
i am interested in prop as well. From what i've read about breaking in on places like Mergers and Inq. is that it depends on 1) networking and 2) the interview, both the tests and personality fit
good luck to the both of us.
I think the idea of doing the same thing every day actually sounds really fun. but i'm one of those weird rain man types
Doing the same thing everyday is boring to most people; the only compensation for that is hopefully youre making money most days. Becomes a lot less fun when you have a couple big drawdowns in a row. Few would willingly take on the stress and monotony of trading (referring to market making here) if it weren't for the upside $ potential. One of the trader memoirs I read mentioned that being exposed to huge amounts of risk everyday kills your libido...got to decide if its worth it to you
If your at NYU go check out QFS (Quantitative Finance Society). They will teach you a lot there and have quite a few connections to traders at BBs (Me) and some Chicago shops
in my candidates' pile, i have plenty of people with master's in fin eng from good places who are willing to grind it out in an expensive city for 50K. i have experienced trader candidates from top desks that have been let go, 3-5 years experience, willing to work for sub-100K.
can you compete with that?
They're really big on functional programming at Jane Street (also equity vs ADR arb and MMing). So brush up on your Haskell.(If that statement didn't make much sense to you , then you have a long road ahead). Ive heard their starting is crap though.
In general , for the long haul in HFT you need a Phd in some quantitative/technical discipline. The simple strategies that undergrads did 3-4 years ago are very crowded and not worth the hardware cost anymore. And to move around , many of the bigger firms will not hire researchers who don't have some advanced degree.
I've personally had enough of it because it can get quite tedious if you aren't really in love with Math/Stats. Also , the personality types it tends to attract are not the most enjoyable to work around. There are , of course , some very solid and great people in the field - but the rest generally combine a level of douchiness and social awkwardness I find exhausting.
I agree with everything on this post. Great stuff, GS.
yes... the opportunities are there, Citi and BAML had offer rates for S&T summers above 60%.
Why the focus on BB? Why not some MM shops as well
I meant prop shops, not S&T at banks. I appreciate everyone's input but getting a job as a trading analyst out of NYU CAS Econ sounds nearly impossible without an impressive Computer Science major or Math major. Although, I would still like to know if prop shops are hiring anymore at all.
And how could one prove oneself during an interview without a quantitative major but having graduated top of your class? Assuming you can even get an interview.
I think you're focussing too much on the programming aspect. I would assume only the HFT places will test you on C++/Java (Except Two Sigma which administers a code test to everyone). They will ask you brain teasers , Mental math and questions about the markets. Fit will also be quite important.
Are there any jobs that don't involve a CS/Engineering major in trading? To be clear: can you get a job in trading with an economics degree?
Are there any non-HFT jobs in trading?
They certainly exist. Fortunately it takes more than a pulse and an Ivy League degree to turn an internship into a full time offer now. This is nothing unusual in other industries, and honestly I hope this trend does not reverse.
Ok, not to hijack the post but...how are opportunities for a undergrad degree in CS/engineering? I understand why grad students are preferred but is that really the only route in now?
I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have a hell of a better shot than an Econ/Phil major.
For options/exotics/quant trading/structuring , they will definitely prefer the more CS/Engineering major types . But I don't really see why a quant degree is an advantage to those who wish to trade pure vanilla products.
Hi,
I am interested in a trading role at a BB (not prop shop). From reading this thread & others on Quantnet etc, it seems that there has been a reduction in the number of S&T positions that BBs are hiring for.
If I am still interested in an S&T role in a BB, does it help that I have a dual degree in Math / CS ?
Looking for your suggestions. Thanks!
How volatile is a career in sales and trading? (Originally Posted: 03/05/2011)
From what I hear, sales and trading is a very volatile career. A lot of traders and salespeople try their hand at the job but the majority are not consistently profitable and burn out/get fired. How volatile is the career based on your experience in the industry? Also, if you leave your firm to laterally transfer to another, what qualifications are people looking for - is your resume just a stat sheet of your PnL over your career?
Volatility is easier to quantify in the markets than in a career path. As with all such questions, it depends "for whom" and "relative to what".
Understand that flow trading is less of a crapshoot then people make it out to be on some threads. You'll start as an assistant trader, and getting your own book is as much about circumstance as proving your abilities. Your desk's net profitability is an important metric for how well you do, oftentimes traders will take positions to hedge for one another or on behalf of the desk. The timing of the market, and how hot your product is represents another factor beyond your control. If your PnL is atrocious your desk head and risk will get involved before the situation gets out of hand. Flow trading is also not necessarily about investing, as it is about risk management, locking in bid/ask spreads and hedging away the risk as efficiently as possible. Apologies if this rambles, been a long night.
I think the better question is what happens to all those poor souls who get fired. Do they go on to other succesful market-related endeavors or do they go back to school/the drawing board and start a new career path.
Also interested
What are the exit ops from doing trading fresh out of college? Another trading gig and so forth?
These questions have been asked an answered ad nauseum.
Any of the above. There is no answer to this type of question, I don't know how you could reasonably expect to get one.
Most would stick in trading, some move to HFs etc, others go back to school if they want to change fields, and those that want something similar but less stress might do Risk Management etc. In general though, you don't do trading for the exit ops. This isn't banking, we don't all hate our lives.
QFT
Where do you see opportunity lie in Sales and Trading? (Originally Posted: 09/12/2012)
No matter how you look at it, we are facing a smaller and more technology driven playing field. The regulation is cracking down on the industry and the clients shy away from uncertainty, complexity, and risk-taking in general; along with such double-whammy, the bonus is down (Deutsche Bank anyone?), stars are jumping ship to hedge funds, firm is cutting back and out-sourcing, and we are seeing more computers than people day by day.
There are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic; but like many things in life, one must play the the hands he's dealt, and the most successful ones will tell you that it's how you play it that really counts. With flow products perhaps becoming more and more machine-driven and exotic products either diminishing or becoming more vanilla, here's my question:
Where do you see the opportunity lies in S&T? If you were to start anew, what would you go for today?
The industry will not die, but more likely than not it will transform into a completely different beast--and it's better to adapt than to be replaced.
I just emailed an upper classman (MBA program) who did a S&T internship with a major bank in Hong Kong to ask him to share his experiences because I want to do S&T as well. He told me to save myself the effort, not waste time and figure out something else to do for a career as it is a completely dying field, barely any interns are getting FT offers and everything is basically getting automated.
Its very unfortunate, but this is not the first time I heard this. The same message has been told to me by many sources from students to MD level friends.
Well here's my take: 1. S&T will need less people, so we will have an over-supply of MBA/Masters/Undergrad; competition is fierce and the standard criteria might not cut it anymore 2. Computer skills and math skills becoming more and more mandatory. 3. Exploration of non-capital intensive, high margin, repeatable business.
I would go for either (a) new initiatives that steams-line the S&T business to learn and get up there fast. (b) areas that will not get replaced that easily (High yield debt, although that's dangerous as well) (c) Structuring/deal related positions (commercial real estate, credit solutions, etc) (d) or a position that builds the broadest skillset to get out of S&T to some other job.
As an undergrad pursuing a career in trading, would a summer analyst experience at a BB in S&T still be a good option or should I focus all my effort on landing a summer internship at a prop shop or hedge fund? I'm a math and finance double major, if that helps.
I don't see commodities trading being automized any time soon (especially the physical side).
what you mean?
Opportunity is in the sales side
I agree. Salesmen will never die, clients always like to talk to someone and there will always be a product to sell
Where do I see opportunity lie in Sales and Trading?
Honestly, I see it in lying. Or, at least in stretching the truth.
So cynical. With a full dose of truth probably. So you think it will still prosper in another form? We never run out of liars.
would like to know as well plz. s&t folk that are still in the business are like, "it's a tough time, but it's still a great place to be. blah blah blah." are they just bs'ing us to make us sign? from all the news it doesn't look like s&t is ANYWHERE near done being hammered.
prob
ahh, i see. i just look at the cbot commodities pits, and their is no action in any futures pits. only the options has any action, and i can't imagine that will stay that way for much longer.
Very little opportunity in trading, as traditionally defined. First, floor trading is virtally extinct, with the exception of some options. Second, algos have taken over, especially in equities and futures, so if you're not a programmer, there's not much room for you.
yeah it is kind of sad, the futures pits are completely deserted, yet there are still 3-4 brokers that still show up everyday and play angry birds.
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