Rising sophomore at a non-target state school here. My goal is to break into BB IB after I graduate. I'm assuming GS, JPM, and MS are the least accepting of non-targets, but does anybody have insights on which banks take the most non-targets?
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Citi and Goldman Sachs.
would not completely agree with Citi, but GS is known for its egalitarian hiring practices
goldman? really? somebody from my school is going to GS but she is an under-represented female.
Probably apart of a minority program (MLT, SEO, MBA JUMPSTART)
[obligatory UBS reference]
I am thinking CS and Barclays?
BAML, DB & Barclays.
any current BB IBD analysts with any knowledge?
CS is NOT non-target friendly. Fact.
GS is great at non-target recruiting. They really do make it a point in their culture to seek out the non target kids and see if they are GS material. If things workout, they get the offer. [I wish I worked at Goldman. If I knew they were as awesome as they are, I would have made my resume GS perfect to get an offer there out of undergrad.]
MS - mixed bag. FO not sure, MO/BO definitely non-target friendly. I have interviewed with them.. not a fan of their recruiting team.
BAML - non-target friendly across the board. Recruiting team that came to my school was full of Umichigan stuck ups.
Citi - not as non-target friendly as people would assume, but it has a fairly large target base. For instance, Carnegie Mellon is a target school but USC may not be a target. (this is an example, so USC may indeed may be a target, just trying to give perspective).
DB - not sure overall, but I believe not non-target friendly.
UBS - same as DB. Not really non-target friendly. To this bank Ivy or Private College = safe hiring bet. This is my opinion.
Barcap - Non-target friendly but very limited hiring from non-target.
BNP Paribas - Not non-target friendly. Tend to bring interns from France and transfer people from Paris from my experience and interactions.
JPM - Non-Target friendly for sure across FO/MO/BO. I know a bunch of people across the board who went there from a variety of schools.
General experiences have been that the European banks in the U.S. do not go to non-targets cause of recruiting expenses and limited information on non-target caliber for recruiting. American banks much better at broadening the search for all types of candidates. All banks have the "unrepresented minority" bucket to fill, so if you are ethnic, you're lucky cause they are looking for people like you. That being said, the minority hires still have to be pretty sharp and come with legit trophy attributes. The girl I selected for this process created an add-in for Google Chrome one summer and she didn't even get the job at the bank i work at.
What do you mean by this?
As in they do go to non-targets to recruit, but they really don't hire that many students to SA or Full Time. Most of their efforts are targeted on their target schools.
well...the above person mentioned BNP, so I will mention that Wells Fargo loves schools in the South
To a large extent, I think all BBs have made a significant effort to hire people from different school as long as they have the right credentials and have networked within their firm. They might not be on every campus, but don't let that discourage you from applying/networking/interviewing there. That said, I think JPM is probably the best place for non-targets because it is so big that it can allow for a diverse group of people from different schools. This makes it a lot easier to network and find someone to push your resume, when it comes time for it. GS might have gotten better recently, but since most of the senior are from targets it becomes harder to network with the right people there.
That said, I think "non-targets" is a very wide category. Think "new ivy" compared to random state school in Massachusetts.
what Ivy's are non target, if any ?
"New Ivy" is different from ivy. http://www.newsweek.com/americas-25-new-elite-ivies-108771
I see what you're saying, but this has been around since the public ivies book came out in '85. the concern for most of the users of this forum is do they have OCR, thus making them a target? if a firm does not recruit on your campus, your campus is not a target school in their mind. in this forum, "target" will usually have a different list depending on what industry you're talking about (probably not much energy trading OCR at Middlebury but probably no Evercore reps at Texas A&M either), but traditionally the ivies are targets for every firm.
recruiting for somewhere like Davidson & Emory (picked these 2 because I know them) will not be the same as what they claim to be in your article. Davidson says it's like a NE LAC, but I doubt that they get recruited like middlebury, williams or amherst, much less Duke which is one of their "overlaps." for Emory, they say they overlap with Penn, I mean c'mon man.
what I will say is that Davidson benefits from the same thing that W&L does and that's tight alumni networks. alumni will go out of their way to help others from there, and since both are expensive private schools that are mostly populated by rich kids, they will usually end up successful and then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. all of that said, Goldman Morgan and JP are not recruiting on campus.
also, noticed they had UNC & UVA in there, those have always been considered public Ivies, along with Michigan, Berkeley, William & Mary, and others. UNC & UVA have always been targets, and while Goldman may not take a ton of kids from there, they're still targets.
didn't mean to sound harsh just wanted some of the high school/early college monkeys to get a quick reality check. if you go to a school on that list, you'll have an easier time than Kansas State, but not as easy a time as if you went to an Ivy.
FD: went to a non target and am damn proud of it.
Excellent question! Surprisingly, I have found that Dartmouth, Brown, and Cornell are non-target Ivy league schools. These schools seem to place less on BB side than Buy side... Buy side seems to scoop a lot of talent straight from undergrad. That being said, my buy side reference includes firms like Fidelity, Western Asset Management, Nuveen, PIMCO, etc.
How about BB's in UK though?
In Ireland (recruiting for London positions) the only BBs that recruit on campus are GS, MS, JPM, and CS in 2-3 Irish universities. There's quite a few from Irish non-targets in the BBs in London so it would appear as long as you have a strong CV the BBs in London will give you a chance. Much more stringent and fair application process in London than an on-campus resume drop.
To add to this - I'm at a non-target (Although still Russell Group) uni in England & we seem to send grads to every BB, although obviously not as many as the targets. Would say we do better at GS & JPM than say MS though.
depends how hot you are
JPM and GS definitely are, Barcap is not the Lehman legacy didn't carry over.
A referral trumps all the recruiting gatekeeping bullshit. Every time.
But...
CS is definitely not non-target friendly, but a referral will make you the young king of Madison Ave. BAML is probably the most non-target friendly for IBD. JPM is non-target friendly for IBD after you show that you can swing your stick a little. They'll be hard at first. DB is big non-target friendly.
Don't have experience with others. I will say that most of the EB's (specifically PWP, CV, MC, EVR) are not non-target friendly whatsoever. EVR for sure.
Let's first define BB. Because I am sure that one persons BB is another persons corner branch atm.
might come as a shock to u, but goldman is most non-feeder friendly, problem is, there r way more non-targets than targets, hence the competition to u is worse than coming from target.
p.s. those above me who didn't answer goldman obviously can go suck a dick
Don't forget Citadel, Jump, Getco.
CS is known to NOT be non-target friendly. HOWEVER, in an effort to cut costs, CS has started a campaign called 'Virtual Recruiting.' VR 'strategically identifies and targets high-potential students from non-core schools and integrates them into campus recruiting process.' This is CS's attempt to focus on targeting and interviewing students at schools across the globe where they do not have an on-campus presence, according to their website. It's there way of delivering the CS brand through technology and is relatively cost-free.
Schools that range from liberal arts schools to big state schools in the U.S. and outside are in this group. Literally, if someone went to your school at CS, chances are you can hit them up through Virtual Recruiting and they'll pass your resume along. If you do it early enough and you possess very solid credentials, the firm will set up a Skype interview.
Times are changing...
This is a great initiative. Maria (person who runs the program) is great. Only for SA though -- not FT
This is almost 95% accurate. CS has a very robust virtual recruiting initiative. However, I will say that it is NOT AS EASY AS ALUMNI PASSING YOUR RESUME ALONG... nothing is that easy. You have to understand that the recruiting committee leading this will only consider 2 to 4 resumes per non-target school per year, and this is for SA, not FT. So keep that in mind. "Networking" may not get you past the first round because there may be a much better student from your school applying who has significantly better trophy attributes (trophy attributes: NCAA Athlete, Honors, Full scholarship, any type of honorary titles, President of well known and large clubs, like investment clubs, etc.... and what we all look for, 3.8+ gpa). I imagine that it is like this at every BB.
So here is where you can luck out. Say you went to some tiny school in Florida that no one has ever heard of and you have ONE alumnus working at the bank, at say CS, that alum could submit you because you are the only one who wants to do BB SA out of your entire school... and that is awesome for that student... but say schools like Brown, Stanford, Notre Dame, Penn State, UMichigan, and Northwestern the competition is insane for virtual recruiting spots at CS.
Just to clear this out, I believe CS targets are: UPenn (obviously), Harvard, Georgetown, Columbia (always), NYU, and a couple of other names... even Fordham is one school I heard was a heavily recruited school.. who knew..
Schools that are considered non-target to CS include: Stanford (schocker), USC, Northwestern, Brown, Cornell, Notre Dame, Drexel, Rice, UTexas, Duke, Carnegie Mellon, and every school lower ranked.
Some guidance for students looking to transfer for junior or senior year. GO TO GEORGETOWN.. I have never seen a school place so well at BBs before. Gtown has some kind of secret deal where literally ALL THEIR STUDENTS GET PLACED and the weaker candidates go to Tier 2 consulting (Deloitte, Oliver Wyman, etc.) or Target Tech (Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc.). If I knew that Gtown was so good at placing people I would have went there for school.
Hope this helps everyone clarify some things.
thanks for all the feedback. very helpful
Cap One
deleted
CS is definitely more open to non-targets through virtual recruiting. You will still probably need a stronger resume than that of a target school candidate to stand out, but you will get a shot- which is all that matters.
MS is probably the least open to non-core without referrals. GS and JPM are better, but still highly unlikely without referrals or diversity.
At a bulge bracket - obviously cannot say which one, but we do get non-target applications online and we do follow through with interviews and many of those apps convert to offers. We focus 95% of our recruiting efforts on target schools and there is a reason - they consistently produce of the best Analysts who go onto to become Associates. We hold LGBT, Military, Minorities & Female events as well to get those underrepresented groups. Recruitment process across the board at BBs (from talking with friends) is to target schools where senior bankers went to i.e. Ivy leagues, top public schools, select Canadian schools.
Agree with the above. I've been very impressed with the Georgetown students I've come across and they seem to place very well into BBs
This may be a stupid question, but seeing that DB is a non target friendly school and that i go to a non target school, would having a family member that once worked their help me in any shape or form? My grandfather was a vice president at DB in NYC a few years back and maybe that would help me relate to them, which in return might make it slightly easier to break into IB there.
A VP is like chump change (considered either "waiting to be promoted" or "unneeded management"), that will literally make zero contribution to your application at DB. Just trying to be honest here.
ok, i was just wondering since i have just figured this our not to long ago. I did not know at all, which is why i asked haha. Thanks for the honesty though, it was worth a try to see what it could do for me.
GS - very non-target friendly
MS - the polar opposite, with a few exceptions
Citi - something in between
Effectively none are. They spend an ungodly amount on recruiting as is, coming from a non-target is a hail-mary in the dark into triple coverage. Though I am sure I'll get some MS thrown my way for stating that fact. Your best bet would be to transfer or plan on getting a target MBA a few years after graduating. Anything else is effectively mental masturbation, has it happened? Sure, but fractions of a percent make it through at targets so you need to adjust your course.
This just isn't correct. If you are competent and perform well during interviews you absolutely have a shot. By non-target I am thinking a large state school. Also, analyst level and post-MBA banking can be two very different career paths...
No they don't -- fact. There are thousands of applications from target schools where banks sink a ton of money into recruiting. Coming from outside of that circle is a non-starter, everything comes into play, not having a solid alumni base at the bank, additional cost of bringing you out for interviews, tons of equally qualified target school applicants etc. If IB is what you want, your best shot is either a target MBA or transferring to a target undergrad. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment, why do you need to come from Harvard for example in order to work in excel all day? You don't, but that's where they put their money and wall street is very risk adverse when it comes to hiring.
Which BB is most friendly to Non-Targets? (Originally Posted: 12/04/2012)
Which BB bank is more willing to interview people applying online from non-target schools?
I know Goldman Sachs is definitely the best with regards to giving a chance to non-targets (you can disagree with me on this one, but from what I have seen so far, they do respond to online applications, even from non-target kids), but are there any other banks that do this?
What about Citi?
If you consider them a BB still, UBS for sure.
Next up from UBS would probably be Barcap.
Also I see from your profile you're in S&T. I know Goldman is horrible with non-targets for IBD and you're posting in the IBD forum so my answers are for banking only. Not sure about S&T or other groups.
The question itself is prone to argument. People are going to post anecdotes all day. Of course every BB has a lot of non-targets because every BB is "friendly" to networking. But as a definition of putting "target" schools on their list that other BBs don't, UBS tops the list for sure.
I worked in the Back Office last summer, so I just put S&T because I was supporting traders.
Well, I guess they are just anecdotes. I'll definitely apply to UBS then.
online applications are a black hole, good luck getting anyone to respond especially from a non-target, better off networking. (source from Citigroup)
Just because UBS is friendly doesn't mean you should apply there. I come from a non-target and have several of my good friends there. They are very scared and its been implied that most of them will be layed off within 2 years. People at UBS are jumping ship in areas such as trading and IBD to move to stronger firms. From what my friends there are telling me is that the bank is shifting its focus on its core business of PWM.
Only intern at UBS if it's for your sophomore year. God forbid you get a FT offer for IBD at the worst bank on the planet, aside from JT Marlin.
BAML and Barclays are fairly decent for semi/non-targets. MS and JPM probably the worst. No idea on Goldman or DB. Obviously UBS is like whatever
I've actually heard that UBS is pretty narrow with regard to the schools it recruits from, and is not great about letting people in outside of their core group of targets/semi-targets. Obviously it's safe to assume that being narrow and selective at targets / semi-targets and only picking the good ones means they're likely to lose those candidates to GS MS etc, and I think that's exactly what happens, and they're left with the so-so students from targets / semi-targets to fill up their analyst class, with a good amount of people from nontargets but certainly nothing worth pointing out relative to other banks.
Did my analyst stint with GS and can confirm that they are excellent when it comes to nontarget recruitment and giving high quality candidates an equal and fair shot regardless of school.
I can also contest that Goldman does a good job at looking at non-targets. I go to Bentley in Boston and an Alumni MD in investment management/ibd interviews 10 candidates from our school each year for SA positions. My roommate got an interview (hes a junior) and a buddy of mine who is a sophomore also got an interview.
However, if we didn't have an alumni willing to pull for us, I doubt there would be much recruiting here at all.
baml loves their semi-targets and non-targets
just check linkedin lol couple of seniors at usc going to baml NY and LA and SF each
Anecdotes do not equal evidence, but MS seems to be pretty elitist.
GS. I know a lot of people from my school (a non-target, maybe semi-target), who get IBD positions in all of their offices. Most other BB recruit solely for their regional office that is close.
BAML
JPM MS DB CS are least non-target friendly from experience.
MS is without a doubt the last of the true white-shoe firms on the street. Most prestige-driven, blue-blooded of the bunch. GS, however, is the opposite; if you can make them money, they want you .. regardless of where you're from. From my experience, JPM and CS, and to an extent, even UBS, lean far more toward MS on that pendulum, while BAML, Barclays, and Citi are more like GS in this regard.
Everyone may not like or agree with the above opinion, but this was my experience during recruiting. I did an externship or received an offer at all of the firms above.
Agreed 100% with APAE - my personal experience and according to those I personally know in the industry and those who have gone on to the buyside
Maybe it's Morgan Stanley's WASPish, and Goldman's "scrappy-Jewish" pasts.
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