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I always hear that at Wharton, Harvard and Princeton it's super hard and competitive to land an ibanking job as there're many students fighting for limited spots. If this was the case, then why would these same banks recruit at Semi-Targets such as Stern, Ross and Northwestern? If they want the best talent possible and they think that the best talent are at the top Ivy's, why wont they just recruit there...ONLY? If you don't understand what im staying, I'll put it like this...
Goldman Sachs has 200 spots open for potential 1st year analyst.
Wharton, Harvard and Princeton altogether has about 2000 students who want these spots at Goldman. But instead of filling these spots up with just "the big 3", they only sign up about 100 from these schools and go recruit at the "Tier 2" schools such as Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, Stanford, Yale and MIT. At these schools, they sign up about 65 or 70 in total and move on the the "Tier 3" schools such as Ross, Stern, UVA,etc and take about 25 to 30 kids. And the rest are filled with people from schools such as U of T, UCLA, KU and other NON TARGET SCHOOL cold callers.
I was wondering why don't they just recruit at the 3 main schools if they think that they're the best talent and they want only the best?

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Comments (107)

  • ShreddiesBrah's picture

    Because they would rather have tier 1 students at a semi target than tier 3 students at HYPW

  • Malakari's picture

    What are you, in 5th grade?

  • EngPhD's picture

    LOL at Stanford, MIT and Yale being "Tier 2."

    Edit: Can't believe I fell for this. I know better than to feed the trolls.

  • In reply to EngPhD
    kendall's picture

    EngPhD:
    LOL at Stanford, MIT and Yale being "Tier 2."

    Edit: Can't believe I fell for this. I know better than to feed the trolls.

    they're the same quality, but from what I've read they are not as well represented on wall street and banks don't recruit there as heavily as wharton,harvard and Princeton.

  • ChicagoBears1's picture

    Pretty sure the targets put more students on wall street than any other school. That's why they're labeled "targets", right? If you go to a target and don't get into IB, chances are you have a low GPA and/or did not network. In that case, they don't deserve to be an I-banker when others are working harder.

  • southernstunna's picture

    OP have you ever thought that the smartest kids at a non-target are more intelligent/hard-working than the second tier kids at HYP?

  • ah's picture

    Because they don't want to recruit "target school" idiots like you??

    I don't accept sacrifices and I don't make them. ... If ever the pleasure of one has to be bought by the pain of the other, there better be no trade at all. A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud.

  • jsmort11's picture

    The dude brings up a good point. In fact, next year citi's analyst program is identical to wharton's senior class

  • 1man2nv's picture

    Different factors.....one that comes to mind is maybe based on high level alumni that work at the company.

    You give me a gift? *BAM* Thank you note! You invite me somewhere? *POW* RSVP! You do me a favor? *WHAM* Favor returned! Do not test my politeness.

  • GutShot's picture

    Strong candidates aren't just about where they went to school. And frankly, an office of 500 wharton kids jacking each other off isn't my idea of a financial powerhouse.

  • SirLarryWildman's picture

    the top of a "tier 2" is just as good/ better than a middle of the road "tier 1"

    the very top of a "tier 3" is just as good/ better than a middle of the road "tier 1"

    etc.

    so there are more "tier 1"s but to get the best they get smaller fractions from "lesser" schools.

    this was too serious of an answer.

    what i meant was fuck you prestige whore. or something.

  • Solidarity's picture

    because not everyone wants to do banking
    because not everyone from HYP needs money
    because they are wealthy scions and can afford to be anthropologists and philanthropists and philosophers and philanderers and sexual deviants for the rest of their lives

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  • kendall's picture

    thanks every1 who actually answered my question without unneeded remarks, and to the guys who said some negative stuff about me, calling me a troll and saying im an idiot...well im guessing you're just a bitter 29 year old analyst who went to a non target and is mad at me for mentioning the top colleges that you were rejected at. or didn't make it to associate or VP. Im 15 and im asking an innocent question. as i wanna become a banker one day(And i actually want to go to Duke, im not a "prestige whore" )

  • apric0t's picture

    ...wow... why don't you calm down and do well in HS (i.e. 2400 SAT, 4.0, cure fucking cancer) first before worrying about target schools and whatnot.

  • Will Hunting's picture

    let me tell you a little story...

    last year I went to a tier 3 school non-target (complete shit school)
    I had a 3.97 at years end while being involved in many clubs without even studying.
    No banks or top companies recruited at that school.

    I then transferred to an IVY for my sophomore year. It is an obvious target with HEAVY bank recuiting
    I have a 3.8 after one semester and as of now I have a 4.0 this semester so it will probably go up.

    If a bank decided to recruit at my shitty school, I would have been a worthy candidate since I am obviously smart enough to get a high gpa with more difficult work.

    Now since I go to a target I will probably land a gig in the future and it had nothing to do with my school. I was smart at the other school as well.

    School doesn't always reflect a person's intelligence. I went to that school because I was poor and needed the scholarship and my dad was sick so I stayed close to home.

    "Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

  • jdog112's picture

    Is this a serious thread?

    And how the hell are Yale, NYU, NW, and Stanford not "target schools"

  • jdog112's picture

    Is this a serious thread?

    And how the hell are Yale, NYU, NW, and Stanford not "target schools"

  • jdog112's picture

    Is this a serious thread?

    And how the hell are Yale, NYU, NW, and Stanford not "target schools"

  • In reply to jdog112
    kendall's picture

    jbert112:
    Is this a serious thread?

    And how the hell are Yale, NYU, NW, and Stanford not "target schools"


    i didn't say they weren't, i just said that they were a -->step below<-- wharton, princeton and harvard.
    And im pulling a 3.8 at bronx science if that matters. Can you guys stop shooting this thread down? I might be wrong, but I thought WSO's forum was to ask and answer questions to help eachother out, but you guys are making it seem it its just to brag about yourself and shit like that.
    You guys are making it seem like im looking down on the people who had to work hard to get where they are. Im a 15 year old and I live with 4 other siblings. We only live with my mom in Amsterdam Projects which is on the upper west side, she is only making 30k a year and nobody in my family went to college and nobody has ever told me how important an education is and I wont have anything handed to me. I have to work hard just like most people and wont be able to fall back on mommy or daddy's money. You guys are acting like I'm a white kid who goes to andover with a 4.0 and can just get into any school i want because my dad is rich and powerful with more connections than Lloyd Blankfein....no, if i wanted to become a sanitation worker than maybe his connections there can help me but other than that, im on my own. I wasn't trying to say that the top ranked IVY's were better than the other schools or that the people from the top ranked IVY's were better than the kids from the other schools. If you read my post carefully, i wasn't trying to say schools A,B, and C were better than X,Y and Z. Im in no position to judge.
  • gnicholas's picture

    Banks recruit outside of HYPS because there are lots of incredibly smart, hard working, and dedicated students at other schools, and they would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't look at Michigan, U of Chicago, UVA, Wash U, Duke, Vanderbilt, Cal, and other schools of that caliber. Not to mention all of the extremely smart kids who don't go to top 25 schools for whatever reason.

  • MrV's picture

    Not all intelligent individuals end up in HYP. Talent exists outside of academic powerhouses.

    Banking.

  • In reply to kendall
    thedose's picture

    kendall:
    Im a 15 year old.

    you're not even in college...

    "I am Shiva the god of death"

  • kendall's picture

    Also, i was wondering if you attend a target school that banks recruit from(and have a good gpa), do you need connections(such as knowing someone at the top of the ranks) to get the interview? I at first though you did as the banks wont have enough time to interview everyone who wants an ibanking job so they mainly interview the well connected people first and then got to the others. But now i think that they interview everyone thats qualified(even if they don't have connections). Which is true?

  • MrV's picture

    3.8 in Bronx Science huh?

    I know several 3.0 -unheard of public school- alums in banking now.
    I also know several 4.0 Stuyvesant alums that are GMs in Foot Locker/CVS.

    Doing well academically does not immediately mean you can succeed in a corporate setting.

    I don't want to attack your ideas, but just wanna let you know theres a lot more to a person than their GPA.

    Banking.

  • In reply to gnicholas
    UFOinsider's picture

    gnicholas:
    Not to mention all of the extremely smart kids who don't go to top 25 schools for whatever reason.

    THIS

    Get busy living

  • In reply to MrV
    kendall's picture

    MrV:
    3.8 in Bronx Science huh?

    I know several 3.0 -unheard of public school- alums in banking now.
    I also know several 4.0 Stuyvesant alums that are GMs in Foot Locker/CVS.

    Doing well academically does not immediately mean you can succeed in a corporate setting.

    I don't want to attack your ideas, but just wanna let you know theres a lot more to a person than their GPA.


    you're right, and I've never said it did. I was responding to an earlier post made by someone. My intentions were never to brag about a 3.8.
  • MrV's picture

    But on a less serious note, you're on sophomore in HS! go frolic in the park, go hangout! do fun things. No need to waste your time on WSO so early on in the game, although its harmless to lurk around a bit. :P

    Banking.

  • kendall's picture

    Lol, i know that. I have friends and a Gf. Just thinking about the future. Im not saying i want to do banking now, just had a question related to banking so I posted it.

  • feenans's picture

    Don't you have a girl to finger or something? For your own good, please don't come on WSO until sophomore year of college...life's too short

  • SpencerMakesBank's picture

    Because a lot of the try hard high school kids become burn outs at a target college and a lot of burn out high school kids become try hards at a non target college. And unless youre some GS prestige whore faggot, you should hire the latter.

  • In reply to SpencerMakesBank
    kendall's picture

    SpencerMakesBank:
    Because a lot of the try hard high school kids become burn outs at a target college and a lot of burn out high school kids become try hards at a non target college. And unless youre some GS prestige whore faggot, you should hire the latter.

    i would give you a silver banana if i knew how to(or had one).

  • thedose's picture

    seriously, go ride a skateboard

    "I am Shiva the god of death"

  • HarvardOrBust's picture

    Not everyone perfected the academic system in HS to go to HYPW but end up doing extremely well in college wherever they end up. Sometimes, those kids can be just as talented as top kids from HYPW, so the college you go to isn't entirely indicative of your intelligence. Talent can be found in all sorts of places.

  • In reply to kendall
    UFOinsider's picture

    kendall:
    MrV:
    3.8 in Bronx Science huh?

    I know several 3.0 -unheard of public school- alums in banking now.
    I also know several 4.0 Stuyvesant alums that are GMs in Foot Locker/CVS.

    Doing well academically does not immediately mean you can succeed in a corporate setting.

    I don't want to attack your ideas, but just wanna let you know theres a lot more to a person than their GPA.


    you're right, and I've never said it did. I was responding to an earlier post made by someone. My intentions were never to brag about a 3.8.

    It's something to brag about, but develop the rest of yourself as well. True story: I had terrible grades but got a far better job than the valedictorian simply because the guy was so tired by the end of school and so bookish that he didn't understand the concept of networking and tanked the few interviews he had. Aside from quant / trading, most of this stuff is not all that tough, there's just a lot of it and the more important factor is your ability to successfully interact with people.

    Get busy living

  • Steelo's picture

    kendall, I don't know why everyone is hating on your thread. I think you bring up a great point that I've always wondered myself. I always hear that top colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and Yale are very competitive and difficult to get into. If this is the case, then why do they accept students from Tier 2 high schools such as Bronx Science? If they want the best talent possible, and they believe the best talent is at Tier 1 high schools such as Stuyvesant, why won't they just accept students from there ONLY?

  • Il Cavaliere's picture

    Because otherwise George W. Bush would have gotten a job as an investment banker.
    Does he seem like one of the smart kids you want to work with in a BB?

  • Il Cavaliere's picture

    Because otherwise George W. Bush would have gotten a job as an investment banker.
    Does he seem like one of the smart kids you want to work with in a BB?

  • In reply to thedose
    kendall's picture

    thedose:
    seriously, go ride a skateboard

    why do you continue to post in this thread if you're going to make these petty comments. What the fuck do i look like riding a skateboard?
  • econ's picture

    OP, are you kidding me? Why does everyone assume that all the students at the top schools are better than all the students everywhere else?

  • In reply to econ
    kendall's picture

    econ:
    OP, are you kidding me? Why does everyone assume that all the students at the top schools are better than all the students everywhere else?

    I have NEVER said a school is better than another school. I was trying to ask if GOLDMAN SACHS THINKS that the students at Wharton ARE BETTER than at lets say NYU, why wont they accept the most Wharton students that they can before going to recruit at NYU.
  • In reply to kendall
    J15's picture

    kendall:
    Lol, i know that. I have friends and a Gf. Just thinking about the future. Im not saying i want to do banking now, just had a question related to banking so I posted it.

    Why dont NBA teams just draft kids from Duke/UNC and ignore everyone else? think about that and you'll know why.
    go have some fun.... get laid with your gf... you're 15, you shouldn't be on WSO 24/7
    its fine to browse around and wanting to know more about the industry.. but u're asking for it for asking retarded questions like this on the board.

    Do a quick search and you'll realize that topics such as "Rank these BBs", "Which of these PE firms are considered to be the most prestigious?", "Which Business school gives a the best shot at GS?" get shit on the most

  • prinmemo's picture

    Kendall, these things are beyond your control. I come from a similarly challenging background and was lucky enough to make it to HYP. It's good that you're looking and planning ahead. I think you'll do well if you're playing chess while others are playing checkers. My advice is to just work hard, learn, and enjoy life. If you do those things you will do very well no matter where you go to college.

  • brotherbear's picture

    Here's the real answer to your question.

    One day, when you're a bit older, you'll take a course on logic, and you'll learn that to defeat an argument, you must either attack the predicates or the logic itself. Your logic is reasonable, but I reject your predicates.

    One of your main assumptions is that Goldman believes kids from H/P/W (by the way, Yale is certainly a top target in the States) are better than kids from all other schools. That's simply untrue. If they thought that way, then they would recruit almost exclusively from those schools. But Goldman doesn't recruit solely from those schools. And it's for all of the reasons people highlighted above.

    I live with two GS traders. Neither of them went to HYPWS. In London, that list would look like: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL (since undergrads cannot attend LBS). Even at Lazard (who bums pedigree more than just about anyone), about half of the analyst class came from outside of those schools.

    The quality of your education is only an indicator of your intelligence, but you don't have to be particularly clever to be an investment banker. You have to be willing to work VERY long hours doing exceedingly remedial accounting, spreadsheet work, and powerpoint presentations (pitch books). Moreover, at a senior level, you're eventually going to have to be able to convince C-level executives at major corporations to go through with a deal (that's how you get paid in investment banking--it's based on deal flow). That's the real reason there is a skew toward HYPWS kids on Wall Street. In 20 years, those kids will--in all likelihood--know a larger number of high-level executives than kids that go to SUNY.

    Just about anyone that graduates with a 3.75+ GPA from a top 100 school can do the work of an investment banking analyst or associate. But there is a serious difference between doing the job of an analyst and doing the job of a director or MD. You'll never make it to MD based on your spectacular Excel skills. You need to know people, and be generally likeable (in the end, you're selling the exact same product every other I-banker is selling). That's why you need to relax and go hang out with your friends. Your 15-years-old for Christ's sake! I currently do business with people I knew when I was 15, and I didn't know anything about I-banking until my senior year in college.

    And I did my undergrad at a 'tier 2' target, and I still got better offers than just about anyone on this board. And I went to a MUCH worse high school than you do. That's why I can guess why Duke is your first choice--they are the best school that offers merit scholarships. But that shouldn't matter for you based on how poor you claim to be. With a 3.8 at Bronx Science, if you get a 2300+ SAT, and do some solid extracurriculars, you'll get into a top Ivy, and you won't have to pay for it (it's called financial aid). Moreover, if you live in the projects (apologies for the generalization), I suspect there is a good chance you are an ethnic minority (think African-American or Hispanic). If that's the case, you'll get in everywhere. If it's not, and you happen to be a poor white kid living in the projects, you do need to work harder than minorities in your situation. Affirmative action really blows for socioeconomically disadvantaged Caucasians.

    Either way, you need to work hard, relax a bit, and focus on having a good time in high school and getting into a good college. And one day, many years from now, maybe you'll sit across the table from me, and I'll ask you why you want to be a trader, and why I should pick you over all of the other kids from HYPWS. And you'll tell me that you're hungrier than they are, and I'll believe you.

  • In reply to J15
    econ's picture

    J15:
    kendall:
    Lol, i know that. I have friends and a Gf. Just thinking about the future. Im not saying i want to do banking now, just had a question related to banking so I posted it.

    Why dont NBA teams just draft kids from Duke/UNC and ignore everyone else?

    LOL - I was going to say the exact same thing...

  • In reply to brotherbear
    Will Hunting's picture

    brotherbear:
    Here's the real answer to your question.

    One day, when you're a bit older, you'll take a course on logic, and you'll learn that to defeat an argument, you must either attack the predicates or the logic itself. Your logic is reasonable, but I reject your predicates.

    One of your main assumptions is that Goldman believes kids from H/P/W (by the way, Yale is certainly a top target in the States) are better than kids from all other schools. That's simply untrue. If they thought that way, then they would recruit almost exclusively from those schools. But Goldman doesn't recruit solely from those schools. And it's for all of the reasons people highlighted above.

    I live with two GS traders. Neither of them went to HYPWS. In London, that list would look like: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL (since undergrads cannot attend LBS). Even at Lazard (who bums pedigree more than just about anyone), about half of the analyst class came from outside of those schools.

    The quality of your education is only an indicator of your intelligence, but you don't have to be particularly clever to be an investment banker. You have to be willing to work VERY long hours doing exceedingly remedial accounting, spreadsheet work, and powerpoint presentations (pitch books). Moreover, at a senior level, you're eventually going to have to be able to convince C-level executives at major corporations to go through with a deal (that's how you get paid in investment banking--it's based on deal flow). That's the real reason there is a skew toward HYPWS kids on Wall Street. In 20 years, those kids will--in all likelihood--know a larger number of high-level executives than kids that go to SUNY.

    Just about anyone that graduates with a 3.75+ GPA from a top 100 school can do the work of an investment banking analyst or associate. But there is a serious difference between doing the job of an analyst and doing the job of a director or MD. You'll never make it to MD based on your spectacular Excel skills. You need to know people, and be generally likeable (in the end, you're selling the exact same product every other I-banker is selling). That's why you need to relax and go hang out with your friends. Your 15-years-old for Christ's sake! I currently do business with people I knew when I was 15, and I didn't know anything about I-banking until my senior year in college.

    And I did my undergrad at a 'tier 2' target, and I still got better offers than just about anyone on this board. And I went to a MUCH worse high school than you do. That's why I can guess why Duke is your first choice--they are the best school that offers merit scholarships. But that shouldn't matter for you based on how poor you claim to be. With a 3.8 at Bronx Science, if you get a 2300+ SAT, and do some solid extracurriculars, you'll get into a top Ivy, and you won't have to pay for it (it's called financial aid). Moreover, if you live in the projects (apologies for the generalization), I suspect there is a good chance you are an ethnic minority (think African-American or Hispanic). If that's the case, you'll get in everywhere. If it's not, and you happen to be a poor white kid living in the projects, you do need to work harder than minorities in your situation. Affirmative action really blows for socioeconomically disadvantaged Caucasians.

    Either way, you need to work hard, relax a bit, and focus on having a good time in high school and getting into a good college. And one day, many years from now, maybe you'll sit across the table from me, and I'll ask you why you want to be a trader, and why I should pick you over all of the other kids from HYPWS. And you'll tell me that you're hungrier than they are, and I'll believe you.

    absolutely amazing post. silver banana for you.

    "Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

  • In reply to brotherbear
    kendall's picture

    brotherbear:
    Here's the real answer to your question.

    One day, when you're a bit older, you'll take a course on logic, and you'll learn that to defeat an argument, you must either attack the predicates or the logic itself. Your logic is reasonable, but I reject your predicates.

    One of your main assumptions is that Goldman believes kids from H/P/W (by the way, Yale is certainly a top target in the States) are better than kids from all other schools. That's simply untrue. If they thought that way, then they would recruit almost exclusively from those schools. But Goldman doesn't recruit solely from those schools. And it's for all of the reasons people highlighted above.

    I live with two GS traders. Neither of them went to HYPWS. In London, that list would look like: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL (since undergrads cannot attend LBS). Even at Lazard (who bums pedigree more than just about anyone), about half of the analyst class came from outside of those schools.

    The quality of your education is only an indicator of your intelligence, but you don't have to be particularly clever to be an investment banker. You have to be willing to work VERY long hours doing exceedingly remedial accounting, spreadsheet work, and powerpoint presentations (pitch books). Moreover, at a senior level, you're eventually going to have to be able to convince C-level executives at major corporations to go through with a deal (that's how you get paid in investment banking--it's based on deal flow). That's the real reason there is a skew toward HYPWS kids on Wall Street. In 20 years, those kids will--in all likelihood--know a larger number of high-level executives than kids that go to SUNY.

    Just about anyone that graduates with a 3.75+ GPA from a top 100 school can do the work of an investment banking analyst or associate. But there is a serious difference between doing the job of an analyst and doing the job of a director or MD. You'll never make it to MD based on your spectacular Excel skills. You need to know people, and be generally likeable (in the end, you're selling the exact same product every other I-banker is selling). That's why you need to relax and go hang out with your friends. Your 15-years-old for Christ's sake! I currently do business with people I knew when I was 15, and I didn't know anything about I-banking until my senior year in college.

    And I did my undergrad at a 'tier 2' target, and I still got better offers than just about anyone on this board. And I went to a MUCH worse high school than you do. That's why I can guess why Duke is your first choice--they are the best school that offers merit scholarships. But that shouldn't matter for you based on how poor you claim to be. With a 3.8 at Bronx Science, if you get a 2300+ SAT, and do some solid extracurriculars, you'll get into a top Ivy, and you won't have to pay for it (it's called financial aid). Moreover, if you live in the projects (apologies for the generalization), I suspect there is a good chance you are an ethnic minority (think African-American or Hispanic). If that's the case, you'll get in everywhere. If it's not, and you happen to be a poor white kid living in the projects, you do need to work harder than minorities in your situation. Affirmative action really blows for socioeconomically disadvantaged Caucasians.

    Either way, you need to work hard, relax a bit, and focus on having a good time in high school and getting into a good college. And one day, many years from now, maybe you'll sit across the table from me, and I'll ask you why you want to be a trader, and why I should pick you over all of the other kids from HYPWS. And you'll tell me that you're hungrier than they are, and I'll believe you.


    great post, I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm black(which makes me a URM). Ima print out that post and hang it up, really inspirational.

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