i dont think there arent a lot of black people at most finance programs to begin with (not even looking at the top programs) based on what ive seen, so it isn't surprising to hear they arent at investment banks

i find a lot more attracted to law than finance, generally speaking

hopefully like silicon valley, we start to see some more diversity down the road

 

Doing some quick calcs... most top schools (IBD feeders) report about a 10% black population. There is also around a 30% international population. If we cross those, we might expect 7% Black Americans. Let's now shrink the world to those who got Finance jobs, but carry these percentages over. That means out of every 100 Analysts / Associates you meet, 7 will be Black. How does that stack up?

 

Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

 
Best Response
Name Of Profit:

Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

I'd say alot more jobs in high finance are "given" to the offspring of the rich and powerful rather than "given" to a woman or black male for diversity purposes, but we don't hear complaints about that, ranting against PC society and diversity is much easier.

Array
 
BobTheBaker:
"Name Of Profit" wrote:
Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

I'd say alot more jobs in high finance are "given" to the offspring of the rich and powerful rather than "given" to a woman or black male for diversity purposes, but we don't hear complaints about that, ranting against PC society and diversity is much easier.

Confirmed.
 

I normally try to stay out of discussions like this, but for some reason I felt compelled to comment.

I absolutely agree with you, BobTheBaker. Absolutely jobs, opportunities, privileges, (and the list goes on) are given to wealthy kids. That is where the saying "it's about who you know, not what you know" came from. If it were not true people would not be repeating it left and right like they do.

BUT, I also have to say that I agree with Name Of Profit, too. If I were not a minority I would not feel comfortable making this claim, but I can anecdotally say that I do not know what diversity would bring to an investment bank. In the fall I was invited to apply to a BBs diversity weekend or something of that nature, and they required an essay on how diversity would help their bank. I sat there and had to BS my way through that because I really do not think that it would. I do have to say, though, that I think blatantly saying, "Screw diversity" is very ignorant and is not a good way to start a comment where you want to be taken seriously.

I do also want to say that lower level IB positions are some of the only positions that I do not think that diversity adds value. Having a diverse student body helps everyone at the university, having a diverse team in consulting can add different perspectives, etc. etc. But given analysts/associates' roles I do not think that diversity adds much there. I would love to hear from a more senior person about this, though, because I have never been in that position and maybe I am completely wrong about the value-added.

 

It's not personal Bob, but I strongly resent this kind of reasoning. Are you actually saying that because there are rich white people that are strongly connected and advantaged, that all other white people should be disadvantaged? It's also mostly the rich URM kids that get those 'diversity' positions.

 
BobTheBaker:
Name Of Profit:
Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

I'd say alot more jobs in high finance are "given" to the offspring of the rich and powerful rather than "given" to a woman or black male for diversity purposes, but we don't hear complaints about that, ranting against PC society and diversity is much easier.

Touchy subject. nepotism exists everywhere. Hundreds of years ago, people gave their kids the family business ...

That said i think fostering diversity is important. IE if you have equally qualified candidates, maybe you try to make your employees a more accurate representation of the population.

I do agree that you should not hire purely for diversity. HR tells us to but guess what - the ones that are weak (black, white, brown, yellow orange) all get weeded out at some point and you're doing no one a favor

 
BobTheBaker:
Name Of Profit:

Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

I'd say alot more jobs in high finance are "given" to the offspring of the rich and powerful rather than "given" to a woman or black male for diversity purposes, but we don't hear complaints about that, ranting against PC society and diversity is much easier.

While this bullshit answer sounds nice to the impressionable kids on this forum, it doesn't explain why internationals (Eastern Europeans, Persians and East Asians) do relatively well. They typically don't come from this magical pool of privilege that the SJWs go on and on about.

Asians actually face legal, reverse discrimination (turned down when qualified explicitly because of race). Again, that's a topic that we're not allowed to talk about. For the purposes of this discussion, the standard, automated response will do (see above).

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 
BobTheBaker:
Name Of Profit:

Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

I'd say alot more jobs in high finance are "given" to the offspring of the rich and powerful rather than "given" to a woman or black male for diversity purposes, but we don't hear complaints about that, ranting against PC society and diversity is much easier.

No. Mr Donny Trump wasn't given anything in life. Only a small loan of $1 million

 

People who are afraid of diversity hiring are people who barely make the cusp to qualify for anything in the first place and need to find a scapegoat on how "the blacks the gays and the women" are taking the job that they should have got instead.

Sit back for a second and appreciate just how wonderfully self entitled you are. It isn't your job that someone else is taking from you, it is a position made available by a private company for whoever the fuck they want to higher. I always have believed the idea of white privilege to be chimerical, but when you get people bitching about diversity programs like a tea partier shouting "theyy took uurrr jooobs" it makes me realize that maybe it does exist to some extent.

You don't deserve anything, you aren't owed anything, don't look for scapegoats.

 

It's like you didn't even bother to read the post. Yeah, i'm technically white because of my skin but my ethnicity/background, and religion are not.If i'm going to get a job I want to get it because I meet the criteria and was good at the interview. I don't care if someone is hired over me as long as they were more qualified and better than me.

 
Name Of Profit:

Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

Dude, diversity doesn't make Ivy Leagues or IBs all black/gay/women. It gives opportunities to groups that are historically discriminated, brings in talents from different background to IB, and as a result escalates the competition. So, bring your A-game.

LIVE THE IMPOSSIBLES
 
Name Of Profit:
Screw diversity. It should all be about performance and merit, I do not see how diversity might bring anything to the table than make some employees feel comfortable about themselves. Jobs shouldn't be given put because your ethnicity,color of your skin or even sexuality.

Wow that is an ignorant statement

Don't break yourself on the way to making yourself
 

What an ignorant comment @"screw diversity, everything should be based on performance and merit".... That's the whole point of this thread. Black applicants make it to interviews through performance and merit. Otherwise, they would not be interviewing. Yet, they are not hired. Interviews are not based on any measurable factors, but purely objective. You people talk as if you are able to determine someone's intelligence based on a short conversation. Who needs IQ tests when apparently many of you can speak with someone for a few minutes to make that determination. You can look no further than Pennsylvania Ave to see what we all see everyday in investment banks. Your comment illustrates that point.

 

Diversity is not about not about not hiring on merit. The research out there supports the fact when you have diverse teams you tend to get really well thought out solutions. It tends to reduce the possibility of group think.

 

Diversity shouldn't be viewed as simply different skin colors. That's where I think our education system, employers fail. You can have a white kid that went through unique experiences and can really bring diversity, while an "under-represented minority" can just be another normal kid who doesn't bring any diversity besides name or skin color. The "under-represented minority" gets an advantage in applying to schools and jobs, while the truly unique person doesn't (without a lot of work on their part to show why they are different).

I also fear that reverse discrimination makes some minorities feel worse about the things they achieve. I know someone who is in the awkward situation of wondering wether they truly deserve what they have achieved or if it was just because they are different on the outside. That lack of satisfaction is kind of scary and I don't know if it's easy to escape that and feel worthy.

That said, I seem to gather that African-Americans are more interested in consulting/law/medicine though that is certainly a generalization.

 

I'm generally passionately against affirmative action, but did you all see that some Asian American organizations are going after Harvard for their admissions criteria? Asians represent something like 3 or 4% of the U.S. population but make up 21% of the Harvard student body. These Asian groups are suing because there is a statistical pattern that shows that it is harder to get in as an Asian than as any other race. I'm not sure I like the idea that Harvard would be 35-40% Asian given Asians' population representation.

Anyway, as far as the topic at hand, I agree with some of the other posters that affirmative action in some business positions seems more like charity than actual business need. What purpose does diversity serve at the analyst level when the role is to be an Excel and PowerPoint monkey? I also agree that the Left has a pretty cynical view of what "diversity" is and what it means. If skin color is the defining characteristic of your organization's understanding of diversity then your organization is pretty intellectually lazy and shallow.

 
DCDepository:

I'm generally passionately against affirmative action, but did you all see that some Asian American organizations are going after Harvard for their admissions criteria? Asians represent something like 3 or 4% of the U.S. population but make up 21% of the Harvard student body. These Asian groups are suing because there is a statistical pattern that shows that it is harder to get in as an Asian than as any other race. I'm not sure I like the idea that Harvard would be 35-40% Asian given Asians' population representation.

This is kind of hilarious. You're against affirmative action, unless it helps white people like it does at Harvard.
 
DickFuld:
"DCDepository" wrote:
I'm generally passionately against affirmative action, but did you all see that some Asian American organizations are going after Harvard for their admissions criteria? Asians represent something like 3 or 4% of the U.S. population but make up 21% of the Harvard student body. These Asian groups are suing because there is a statistical pattern that shows that it is harder to get in as an Asian than as any other race. I'm not sure I like the idea that Harvard would be 35-40% Asian given Asians' population representation.

This is kind of hilarious. You're against affirmative action, unless it helps white people like it does at Harvard.

I guess when a group out represents itself by 10 times then I start to think that you may need something. I'm very pro-Jew and pro-Israel, but don't think that Harvard should be 60% Jewish.

I don't think whites have ever been 5-10 times over represented at a college in the U.S.

 

classic. Looking at UCs which don't use AA, the top schools are 40-50 Asian. Why? They work harder. Affirmative action is based on the idea of helping disadvantaged groups. That is what IB Diversity Programs are supposed to do as well. I think the idea behind them is good, but the execution could be worked on.

 

No, I am saying that there should be an equal amount of vitriol (honestly moreso) given to nepotism as there is to hiring unqualified ppl for diversity. But all the attention is given to diversity, probably because a large majority of those whining about it are white people. White people at a disadvantage? Idk where this myth comes from but its one of the most absurd new narratives of today's society, that somehow white people aren't, even today, even with all the diversity hiring programs and affirmative action, the most advantaged people in society.

Array
 

I suppose I'm not against the advocates of diversity so as long as their ends aren't backed by the government, as private institutions, like universities or businesses, should be able to hire whomever they want. Ideally, people would be appraised based on their abilities and not their race or origin, and I personally don't know why a business would want to subordinate merit to genes, as it doesn't seem to be in their best interest. Although financial institutions might have a couple reasons to support diversity, like appeasing rich liberals with whom they may do business and ensuring varying perspectives, they really make money by having skilled employees that add value, and the idea of promoting diversity generally, but of course not always, permits more inadequacy and less value creation in the name of thrusting up the inferior.

 

This topic has already been debated months before. Use the search engine.

I often seem folks against diversity initiatives talk about the hypothetical rich black kid and how he or she doesn't deserve consideration because he's "rich". To make the assumption that any rich black kid (which is probably not the norm to see, honestly) is in some way lesser than your typical rich white kid is incredibly racist. I don't understand why anyone would assume a rich black kid who probably now has the resources to succeed and has the scores/background to validate his candidacy (wealth does do that) is unqualified. It's like you're inferring that there's something inherent about being black that makes black folks "unqualified" regardless of socioeconomic status.

Side Note: It should also be noted that institutions, whether they be universities or companies, pursue diversity for different reasons (i.e. recognizing hardships, gaining a diverse talent pool, remedying institutional racism cause by Jim Crow laws, because they can, etc).

You all would be better served fighting the hundreds of bankers who got in through nepotism, than the very, very few black kids who got in because they took the initiative, time, and few resources to apply to diversity programs.

 

PollyBB, i think the main point is that diversity is more than skin color, and that's where I hope firms/universities aren't being lazy. Yes, nepotism is wrong as well, but that has nothing to do with diversity. Just because one believes two things are wrong, and one is worse, that doesn't mean you can't argue against the lesser one.

And I agree with the point that private institutions should be able to do whatever they want with diversity, but I can still question their policies.

 

To answer the question and not to fan the flames of what has somehow become a full fledged affirmative action debate, it points to an educational and socioeconomic gap in the US. And yes - for our Fox News fans - a portion of the onus does fall on the African American community as well. There are some cultural issues that can only be healed from the inside. BUT to ignore the societal inequities in place and to avoid their correction is a profound lapse in social responsibility and basic human compassion.

 
SmokeyG:

To answer the question and not to fan the flames of what has somehow become a full fledged affirmative action debate, it points to an educational and socioeconomic gap in the US. And yes - for our Fox News fans - a portion of the onus does fall on the African American community as well. there are some cultural issues that can only be healed from the inside. BUT to ignore the societal inequities in place and to avoid their correction is a profound lapse in social responsibility and basic human compassion.

Well, for you MSNBC fans, blacks suffer from societal inequities because Democrats have run their neighborhoods into the swamps and have enslaved black children to the will of an unbelievably corrupt and powerful teachers' union. And blacks keep voting for them decade after decade. So in my mind, the black community has reaped what it has sown.

 
DCDepository:

Well, for you MSNBC fans, blacks suffer from societal inequities because Democrats have run their neighborhoods into the swamps and have enslaved black children to the will of an unbelievably corrupt and powerful teachers' union. And blacks keep voting for them decade after decade. So in my mind, the black community has reaped what it has sown.

would love an elaboration on this gem of a statement lol
 

I generally agree, but with a caveat. If anybody is going to correct the societal inequalities, it ought' to be left to private enterprise as well as capitalism and cannot be solved, or attempted to, by the government. The government coming in and trying to thrust up the lower socioeconomic strata leads to dependency on the state and even more poverty, as people lack the motivation to ascend the economic ladder and would rather collect handouts, and it ignores the needed separation between economy and government. The government stepping in and forcing affirmative action policies generally does the same thing: it supports people relying on the state rather than their own merit. The more the government can do to help you, the more it can do to hurt you, and there is nothing compassionate about molding people into parasites of the state.

 

There aren't many blacks in banking because black people are scary. Not as scary as Chinese people, but still pretty frightening.

But on a more serious note (I don't think black people actually are scary), if you lump black in with lower income and assume they get into a top college that is a target for IB, and leaving aside the affirmative action argument fomenting here, there are a few factors why there aren't many African Americans in banking or consulting, and probably why there aren't that many poor people in these fields in general. Most lower income people don't know about IB whereas everyone knows about law and medicine. When you're poor but you're smart and get into a good college the jobs you think of to make money are being a lawyer or a doctor. Bankers are tellers at the BofA branch. Your aunt or neighbor may work there. You don't want that as a job. And you've most likely never heard of consulting.

If you don't know about IB, you're already behind the 8 ball because you have no idea you need to get internships early on in college and there's no way you can take an unpaid internship after your freshman year, or during any school year, because you have to work for money to do silly shit like eat. You're probably also working near full time during the school year. There's also no real chance your family would have any connections that may help you network into internships. Your dad or uncle doesn't have to be an MD at Goldman, but maybe the uncle knows someone at a F500 who can help you get that freshman internship. And you probably have no idea how to network because lower income people don't network. It's just not a known concept. And you think you can jump on a train or bus and go to NYC for a couple of days to get coffee with alum or other people you've reached out to? No, because you don't have money for that and your parents don't either. And networking is really tough because you probably don't have a hell of a lot in common with an upper middle class white guy who spent summers at a beach or lake, who grew up in a perfect suburb and never really knew the meaning of the words want or need. He wanted a sailboat growing up. You just needed food and wanted the lights not to get shut off that month. Throw in that you're a black kid from Newark, or Roxbury or North Philly and that's a big confidence hurdle to overcome.

I grew up as poor as a church mouse but got into the good school. I'm white but I had a lot of black friends. They were the only other kids as poor as me. I had no idea what IB was or really about anything other than lawyers were rich, therefore I should go to law school (thank god I didn't). I also thought I already hit the jackpot because I got into a good school, what came after that was purely an afterthought because I already punched the golden ticket. I also didn't have time to think about banking, or buy courses to teach me about them (I have no clue if those existed when I was in school) or do internships because I had to work 30-40+ hours per week to afford school and to eat.

 

On point. There is a lack of interest because there is a lack of knowledge. As DingDong stated there is less of a likelihood that black undergrads have any exposure to IB as a career option for the reasons given. It will take more bankers like DingDong in the industry to have an understanding of that fact and recruit accordingly.

 
Dingdong08:

There aren't many blacks in banking because black people are scary. Not as scary as Chinese people, but still pretty frightening.

But on a more serious note (I don't think black people actually are scary), if you lump black in with lower income and assume they get into a top college that is a target for IB, and leaving aside the affirmative action argument fomenting here, there are a few factors why there aren't many African Americans in banking or consulting, and probably why there aren't that many poor people in these fields in general. Most lower income people don't know about IB whereas everyone knows about law and medicine. When you're poor but you're smart and get into a good college the jobs you think of to make money are being a lawyer or a doctor. Bankers are tellers at the BofA branch. Your aunt or neighbor may work there. You don't want that as a job. And you've most likely never heard of consulting.

If you don't know about IB, you're already behind the 8 ball because you have no idea you need to get internships early on in college and there's no way you can take an unpaid internship after your freshman year, or during any school year, because you have to work for money to do silly shit like eat. You're probably also working near full time during the school year. There's also no real chance your family would have any connections that may help you network into internships. Your dad or uncle doesn't have to be an MD at Goldman, but maybe the uncle knows someone at a F500 who can help you get that freshman internship. And you probably have no idea how to network because lower income people don't network. It's just not a known concept. And you think you can jump on a train or bus and go to NYC for a couple of days to get coffee with alum or other people you've reached out to? No, because you don't have money for that and your parents don't either. And networking is really tough because you probably don't have a hell of a lot in common with an upper middle class white guy who spent summers at a beach or lake, who grew up in a perfect suburb and never really knew the meaning of the words want or need. He wanted a sailboat growing up. You just needed food and wanted the lights not to get shut off that month. Throw in that you're a black kid from Newark, or Roxbury or North Philly and that's a big confidence hurdle to overcome.

I grew up as poor as a church mouse but got into the good school. I'm white but I had a lot of black friends. They were the only other kids as poor as me. I had no idea what IB was or really about anything other than lawyers were rich, therefore I should go to law school (thank god I didn't). I also thought I already hit the jackpot because I got into a good school, what came after that was purely an afterthought because I already punched the golden ticket. I also didn't have time to think about banking, or buy courses to teach me about them (I have no clue if those existed when I was in school) or do internships because I had to work 30-40+ hours per week to afford school and to eat.

apologies, I know you left this post about a year ago but i was reading your forum member of the year posts and really loved this one and couldn't help but respond. mad respect for you man, mad respect.

 
Dingdong08:

There aren't many blacks in banking because black people are scary. Not as scary as Chinese people, but still pretty frightening.

But on a more serious note (I don't think black people actually are scary), if you lump black in with lower income and assume they get into a top college that is a target for IB, and leaving aside the affirmative action argument fomenting here, there are a few factors why there aren't many African Americans in banking or consulting, and probably why there aren't that many poor people in these fields in general. Most lower income people don't know about IB whereas everyone knows about law and medicine. When you're poor but you're smart and get into a good college the jobs you think of to make money are being a lawyer or a doctor. Bankers are tellers at the BofA branch. Your aunt or neighbor may work there. You don't want that as a job. And you've most likely never heard of consulting.

If you don't know about IB, you're already behind the 8 ball because you have no idea you need to get internships early on in college and there's no way you can take an unpaid internship after your freshman year, or during any school year, because you have to work for money to do silly shit like eat. You're probably also working near full time during the school year. There's also no real chance your family would have any connections that may help you network into internships. Your dad or uncle doesn't have to be an MD at Goldman, but maybe the uncle knows someone at a F500 who can help you get that freshman internship. And you probably have no idea how to network because lower income people don't network. It's just not a known concept. And you think you can jump on a train or bus and go to NYC for a couple of days to get coffee with alum or other people you've reached out to? No, because you don't have money for that and your parents don't either. And networking is really tough because you probably don't have a hell of a lot in common with an upper middle class white guy who spent summers at a beach or lake, who grew up in a perfect suburb and never really knew the meaning of the words want or need. He wanted a sailboat growing up. You just needed food and wanted the lights not to get shut off that month. Throw in that you're a black kid from Newark, or Roxbury or North Philly and that's a big confidence hurdle to overcome.

I grew up as poor as a church mouse but got into the good school. I'm white but I had a lot of black friends. They were the only other kids as poor as me. I had no idea what IB was or really about anything other than lawyers were rich, therefore I should go to law school (thank god I didn't). I also thought I already hit the jackpot because I got into a good school, what came after that was purely an afterthought because I already punched the golden ticket. I also didn't have time to think about banking, or buy courses to teach me about them (I have no clue if those existed when I was in school) or do internships because I had to work 30-40+ hours per week to afford school and to eat.

exactly. This goes for any high paying professions in general. Being a lawyer or a doctor isn't always the best choice given how much you'll need to spend so much on schooling and too little time get paid (huge opportunity cost). Americans understand so so little about anything outside of their socioeconomic stratosphere (rich or poor). The first step to creating more diversity, equality, or more importantly equal opportunity is having a basic understanding of the aforementioned post - well said @Dingdong08 I appreciate you bringing this to light

 
scottsmithsonian:
Dingdong08:
There aren't many blacks in banking because black people are scary. Not as scary as Chinese people, but still pretty frightening.But on a more serious note (I don't think black people actually are scary), if you lump black in with lower income and assume they get into a top college that is a target for IB, and leaving aside the affirmative action argument fomenting here, there are a few factors why there aren't many African Americans in banking or consulting, and probably why there aren't that many poor people in these fields in general. Most lower income people don't know about IB whereas everyone knows about law and medicine. When you're poor but you're smart and get into a good college the jobs you think of to make money are being a lawyer or a doctor. Bankers are tellers at the BofA branch. Your aunt or neighbor may work there. You don't want that as a job. And you've most likely never heard of consulting.If you don't know about IB, you're already behind the 8 ball because you have no idea you need to get internships early on in college and there's no way you can take an unpaid internship after your freshman year, or during any school year, because you have to work for money to do silly shit like eat. You're probably also working near full time during the school year. There's also no real chance your family would have any connections that may help you network into internships. Your dad or uncle doesn't have to be an MD at Goldman, but maybe the uncle knows someone at a F500 who can help you get that freshman internship. And you probably have no idea how to network because lower income people don't network. It's just not a known concept. And you think you can jump on a train or bus and go to NYC for a couple of days to get coffee with alum or other people you've reached out to? No, because you don't have money for that and your parents don't either. And networking is really tough because you probably don't have a hell of a lot in common with an upper middle class white guy who spent summers at a beach or lake, who grew up in a perfect suburb and never really knew the meaning of the words want or need. He wanted a sailboat growing up. You just needed food and wanted the lights not to get shut off that month. Throw in that you're a black kid from Newark, or Roxbury or North Philly and that's a big confidence hurdle to overcome.I grew up as poor as a church mouse but got into the good school. I'm white but I had a lot of black friends. They were the only other kids as poor as me. I had no idea what IB was or really about anything other than lawyers were rich, therefore I should go to law school (thank god I didn't). I also thought I already hit the jackpot because I got into a good school, what came after that was purely an afterthought because I already punched the golden ticket. I also didn't have time to think about banking, or buy courses to teach me about them (I have no clue if those existed when I was in school) or do internships because I had to work 30-40+ hours per week to afford school and to eat.

exactly. This goes for any high paying professions in general. Being a lawyer or a doctor isn't always the best choice given how much you'll need to spend so much on schooling and too little time get paid (huge opportunity cost). Americans understand so so little about anything outside of their socioeconomic stratosphere (rich or poor). The first step to creating more diversity, equality, or more importantly equal opportunity is having a basic understanding of the aforementioned post - well said @Dingdong08 I appreciate you bringing this to light

Some of this i agree with some i don't. I'm first generation and my parents had no effing clue about banking and i was studying to be a lawyer (Because i wanted to not really because its all i knew that would make money). I found IBD because friends were doing it but otherwise had no effing clue what it was. So spot on there i think.

That said, the whole depiction of kids getting into ib because of connections is a bit jaded view of ibd. By and far these days, we have more non-privileged (i don't say underprivileged) kids than those that are. THere are always going to be your my dad was an MD and i started reading WSJ at 12 and have had a hard-on for banking since i was born types but there are lots of people who just never understood the appeal.

But your initial observation is true. Why do you think more and more asians go into finance now such that asian is not a protected class / minority at banks? Granted most do leave after a few years - the trend is picking up

 
abcdefghij:

Frankly, having interviewed people for both banking and PE, I just haven't been very impressed with any of the black candidates. I consider myself pretty objective when it comes to this stuff and the black candidates I met were simply not as smart as the Asians and Jews...

Really dude? Not a single black candidate was impressive? Not one? Such a suspect statement. Also, these aren't interviews for scientific research, we all acknowledge banking doesn't require much intelligence, just a baseline level of work ethic. Being the smartest should be a benefit not the reason someone is hired. This discussion is getting sidetracked, DingDong08 hit the nail on the head with his statement.

 

^ someone threw crap at this guy for making an objective and honest comment? this is why we can't have an honest race discussion in America...

Affirmative action programs are hogwash. May the best candidate win; I don't care if you are white, black, brown, or whatever else. Having different standards for different races is racism.

 

It isn't hogwash when legacies have reserved spots at universities or corporations right? Legacy and nepotism is the worst kind of affirmative action that has been around for centuries. You call it hogwash, yet either are not educated enough to understand why it was put there to begin with or don't give a damn. It was put there because of the unbelievable level of racism that had gone on for so long and kept minorities in the gutter. I mean, just using one petty example such as forcing blacks to sit in the back of the bus or not being able to use the same water faucets. Using such petty examples and you don't understand why affirmative action was/ is necessary for the things that actually matter? I like to think all of the commenters in here are educated based on the subject matter of this site. However, reading the comments in here would lead me to believe I'm speaking to people who have no sense of history nor curiosity to think outside of your little IB bubbles which is unfortunate and indicative of the society we now live in. Seems things are going backwards instead of forward.

 

"The Notorious BIG said it best: "Either you're slingin' crack-rock, or you've got a wicked jump-shot." Nobody wants to work for it anymore. There's no honor in taking that after school job at Mickey Dee's, honor's in the dollar, kid. So I went the white boy way of slinging crack-rock: I became a stock broker."

Black people sling crack-rock and/or shoot wicked jump shots.

QED.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

I'm female and a racial minority, honestly it's how a child is raised and the environment. My family consist of engineers, farmers, and a couple of accountants so that's all I knew. When wanted to study politics, my parents immediately got me hooked up with city council members and eventually an internship with our Representative. I grew up with rich/wealthy white kids who's parents didn't help them get into school nor jobs. I just won the parental lotto, I guess. By the end of high school I wanted to do something in finance, because I watched CNBC 1 day. My eyes lit up when I saw Erin Burnett call Citi group "sh*tty group on air. My parents had investments, but didn't know the people who worked in that field and that's the same for most people in America. Finance is already a white male blue blood field anyway, so I honestly don't have a problem with diversity programs (military especially). What I DO have a problem with is hiring a black kid only because a white whiny liberal told you too. Diversity can add different perspective to work, adding the Italian, the veteran returning from combat, the rich black kid, the poor white kid can make work hella fun. As I have said before not all blacks are the same, some grew up in the ghetto, and some grew up in Mtn. Brook, AL with a a father that was a VP. Same with every race in America...

Greed is Good!
 
CUBuffwg:
Diversity can add different perspective to work, adding the Italian, the veteran returning from combat, the rich black kid, the poor white kid can make work hella fun

I just want to personally thank you for separating I-talians from the rest of us. Not enough people discriminate against I-talians in this day and age, and I for one am tired of the tolerance.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
CRE:
"CUBuffwg" wrote:
Diversity can add different perspective to work, adding the Italian, the veteran returning from combat, the rich black kid, the poor white kid can make work hella fun

I just want to personally thank you for separating I-talians from the rest of us. Not enough people discriminate against I-talians in this day and age, and I for one am tired of the tolerance.

yeah.. me too... although I have to take points way for not pointing out the Irish :)

 

Wait, why are we talking about black people? Let's get back to I-talians. I don't like to see them come out to this clean country with their oily hair, dressed up in those silk suits, passing themselves off as decent Americans.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
theebreadwinner:

Ya'll only hate italians cause they got the longest sausages

Baseless pro-Italian propaganda from the corrupt politicians that they elected.

I have yet to see an accurate comparison of a german brautwurst, an Italian sausage, a polish kielbasa, Mexican chorizo, side by side. Until I see all of those sausages, all at the same time, I won't believe you for a second.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

I just want to leave a quick comment about what I think about the programs for URMs. I don't think they have much of a purpose other than to boost the banks rep. If these programs didn't exist, there would be a lot less URMs in banking (correct me if I'm wrong, I very well may be, don't know too much myself), and there would be a whole circlejerk of how only white boys can make it into IB. The purpose it could serve is to encourage other people to give IB a shot, which leads to a bigger pool of applicants to select from in the long run (more applicants generally means there are going to be more people with talent).

I'm going to almost fully agree and say that diversity has little to no real effect on the workplace. I can see the point of "different types of people will think differently and provide different ideas" thing being only true based on gender. Men and women think very differently, and having both men and women on a team could help a lot. However, I can't see having other races or people of a different sexuality having any different effect than a homogeneous team.

 

From my observation, the black community doesn't hold finance in the same regard as medicine, law or engineering. One thing I've observed at my target school is that it's a lot more difficult to pry away black college students from the "Big 3" professions. Combined with the other factors that I'm sure others have already mentioned, and I think you'll see financial services lag behind for a long time.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln
 

I will tell you why and I have seen this many times from experience and it's unfortunate to see. Many black applicants that make it to the interview have awesome resumes and are more than qualified to do the job. The problem is they interview with mostly white interviewers and are competing with other applicants that are more "relatable" with the interviewers. Just a week ago we interviewed a black male applicant and he blew all of the other candidates out of the water in terms of his experience and market knowledge. Yet, the people who interviewed him liked him but seemed to find irrational reasons for voting for another applicant. Many times they have an uphill battle and literally have to be 3 times better to get it usually. I know many will disagree, but it is obvious when you look around a trading floor and watch how hires are determined.

 

I agree 100% and have a relatable story.

Interviewed 6 candidates, and one was a black male. 3 were girls.

He was easily top 2, with a strong understanding of how deals got done, demonstrated industry expertise, and had very thoughtful questions. Feedback on him was positive across the board, but it took only one senior to step in and say he 'really liked' kid C, so naturally everyone jumped on board.

This isn't just an issue in IB; this is an issue in many sectors. Sadly, the most Black representation you see are in Community Investment groups.

 

Just wanted to opine that "different perspective" doesn't mean that some people add new topics or points to the conversation no one else thought of. It probably means different in a 'who you are' sense. We love those rosy little boys from the ivory towers. But frankly, what do they contribute to the world? Rich kids have never made anyone rich.

 

I would like to add to some of the statements ranging from "black people are not smart enough" to "only the best are hired based on merit". This is complete nonsense. There are plenty of white guys in banking / trading that can't even write coherent sentences. I wonder how some of these guys were even hired. The sad truth is people hire people that remind them of themselves. Banking has a baseline level of intelligence necessary to succeed that a decent high school student could have and a strong work ethic. That's it, rocket scientist criteria is not the norm. Also, feeder schools are there to ensure rich white kids continue to have access to these jobs. Do you people really believe these legacy students and students from 50k a year high schools are really "smarter" because they act a certain way to "present smartness"? I grew up around black and white students and your assumptions that all or most black families coming from the projects are laughable and ridiculous and illustrates the reason many black people or even Hispanic for that matter are not hired often. Nothing to do with intelligence and more to do with representation in positions that make the ultimate hiring decisions.

 
Cakes22:
I would like to add to some of the statements ranging from "black people are not smart enough" to "only the best are hired based on merit". This is complete nonsense. There are plenty of white guys in banking / trading that can't even write coherent sentences. I wonder how some of these guys were even hired. The sad truth is people hire people that remind them of themselves. Banking has a baseline level of intelligence necessary to succeed that a decent high school student could have and a strong work ethic. That's it, rocket scientist criteria is not the norm. Also, feeder schools are there to ensure rich white kids continue to have access to these jobs. Do you people really believe these legacy students and students from 50k a year high schools are really "smarter" because they act a certain way to "present smartness"? I grew up around black and white students and your assumptions that all or most black families coming from the projects are laughable and ridiculous and illustrates the reason many black people or even Hispanic for that matter are not hired often. Nothing to do with intelligence and more to do with representation in positions that make the ultimate hiring decisions.

This is true although I think “acting smart” goes 10x further than being smart. If no one knows you’re an idiot, does it even matter?

 

I think part of it could be cultural. People tend to gravitate to things where they see people like them being successful.

Even if there was just a 60-40 split in IB preference between white and black kids coming out of high school, that can lead to huge differences when you get to the end of the bell curve for premier finance jobs like IBD.

 

Add on: After reading some other posts I'd like to add that I think an argument could be made for diversity being beneficial because at the senior levels it could open a firm up to new revenue streams. If there was an industry that was particularly dominated by a specific ethnicity or culture, having someone that was also a member of that minority group might allow you to win more deals as they'd be able to more easily relate to that group.

 

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