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6/28/12

Since I'm now recruiting for a boutique wealth management firm rather than a bulge bracket investment bank, I'm seeing a whole new type of resumes. Some of them are quite funny, and you all know me -- I love to share.

Since people in the past have been upset by my posting humorous responses to the drek I read in resumes, I considered just posting the drek this time and omitting the humor. However, it just didn't seem as useful. The point is that this stuff doesn't sound that funny until you're a recruiter looking at your fortieth resume of the day -- and in order to submit a good resume, you need to understand your recruiter's point of view. Here we go.

Candidate 1: High school GPA: 3.52. [Not very tough college] GPA: 2.96.
Great, dude. Clearly, you had a lot more fun in college than you had in high school. It's understandable; your school is known for partying. But if you're trying to prove that you have the potential for a 3.52, then you'd also have to answer to why that potential went down the tubes during college and why you're still a top-quality candidate. Sadly, I don't have the time or inclination to ask that question. Next.

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

Candidate 3: First place, poetry.com Poem Contest.
Hmm -- isn't that the contest that's famous for awarding first place to everyone who enters? Did you shell out the $65 for the heirloom-quality coffee table book containing your poem, the $575 to accept your award at the quarterly conference, and the $169 for the elegant silver-tone trophy cup too? If so, I would like to honor your ground-breaking work in poetry as well. Please PM me for the name and address where you should send your check. Next.

Candidate 4: Diablo 2 -- Self-Run Online Business.
This is exactly the kind of entrepreneurial self-starter we want in our firm. Next.

Candidate 5: "This seems to be an ideal position that will enable me to contribute to your company by utilizing my current skills and experience. I am eager and enthused to be given the opportunity to contribute my diligence and hard work ethic to your company.... My work experience has taught me to work independently as well as exemplifying team work by taking initiative in other aspects of departmental obligations such as administrative support."
My friend, you probably thought that exhausting the thesaurus would make you sound intelligent. Unfortunately, all it did was make you sound like a tool. Also, it doesn't hide the fact that your grammar is disappointing. Next.

Candidate 6: Fanatic video gamer (mainly console).
There is a short list of things that you should never put on a resume, no matter how true they are. Smoking marijuana is one. Drinking to blackout is another. Fanatic video gaming is in the same group. Like many scions of the '80's, I am a huge video game fan and have wasted too much of my life on video games -- from Final Fantasy I in 1990 to Street Fighter II in 1993 to World of Warcraft and Civ 4 and Guitar Hero II now. Does that mean I have sympathy for somebody who feels that this belongs on his resume? Absolutely not. That's something you can bring up on the third round of drinks during a social event when there are no seniors around to hear, but not on your resume.

Comments (245)

8/22/07

haha hilarious, I assume your new job is treating you much better than the last one?

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8/22/07

i love you mis Ind

8/22/07
imkeen:

i love you mis Ind

8/22/07

Hah, as you tumble down the prestige ladder it becomes more comical that you mock other people

8/22/07
Mis Ind:

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

This gets to me everytime. Are you saying that your company is above the sort of candidate who has put in his/her time at fast food and retail? If this was his only work experience I can understand you having a laugh at it, but if you ding him for simply putting on his resume, thats kinda sad.

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

*Here ends the public service announcement*

8/22/07
Schumacher:
Mis Ind:

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

This gets to me everytime. Are you saying that your company is above the sort of candidate who has put in his/her time at fast food and retail? If this was his only work experience I can understand you having a laugh at it, but if you ding him for simply putting on his resume, thats kinda sad.

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

*Here ends the public service announcement*

DOCH

8/23/07
Schumacher:

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

Actually, there's only one way to look at this. If you're screening resumes, who do you work for? The firm or this guy? Your job is to get the best candidate from a big stack. Period. I know people who work in burger joints and mail rooms, and it hasn't changed my mind.

In a fight between a big guy and a little guy, the big guy doesn't always win. But that's the one you bet on. And if you're betting the company's money, it had better be on the big guy, if you want to keep YOUR job.

Getting clearer?

8/23/07
Restructure This:
Schumacher:

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

Actually, there's only one way to look at this. If you're screening resumes, who do you work for? The firm or this guy? Your job is to get the best candidate from a big stack. Period. I know people who work in burger joints and mail rooms, and it hasn't changed my mind.

In a fight between a big guy and a little guy, the big guy doesn't always win. But that's the one you bet on. And if you're betting the company's money, it had better be on the big guy, if you want to keep YOUR job.

Getting clearer?

Youre right, the candidate is clearly not ready for the job if his only experience is flipping burgers. I was merely saying working those types of jobs and putting them on your resume SHOULD never get you an auto-ding.

It's like in Reservoir Dogs when Mr. Pink refuses to tip the waitress. You have to show a little respect. SOME people have to support themselves through H.S. and college and often times people in certain areas have to resort to fast food and retail no matter how good their GPA is. Let me tell you, coming from the midwest; GPA and school prestige didnt mean $hit when it came time to look for a summer job. That said, the kid should have def. found SOMETHING in the general industry his junior summer.

I'd also like to say that a lot of people are showing Mis. Ind disrespect on this board. So she may be a little braggy and she thinks shes working for the coolest company since the one that invented sliced bread. But so what? More power to her. She was nice enough to post a job opportunity and is getting flamed for it. Play nice, gentlemen.

8/22/07

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

Lol when did people start holding PWM internships in high regard?

8/22/07
Devils Advocate:

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

Lol when did people start holding PWM internships in high regard?

What other legit finance internships can you get as freshmen?

And will someone explain to me what DOCH is? :P

6/29/12
Devils Advocate:

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

Lol when did people start holding PWM internships in high regard?

They haven't lol

"Well, you know, I was a human being before I became a businessman." -- George Soros

8/22/07

im not sure if it's the case here, but it's really deplorable to reject an (otherwise strong) applicant just because he/she worked in a fast-food restaurant.

8/22/07

Nope. We've all worked retail or fast food, I'm sure... but the difference between a good candidate and a bad candidate is that the good candidate has better things to use their valuable resume space on than Burger Patch. What that candidate was actually saying was, "I have nothing better to say about myself than that I worked at Burger Patch for five summers." No internships. No summer volunteer work. The guy's twenty-two and he's going back home to work at Burger Patch in the summer just like he did in high school. That just doesn't look good on a resume.

By the time you graduate college, you should not have to write about flipping burgers just to fill up your one page. Especially not if you did it for five years. That tells me that the guy is not particularly focused on being a good candidate for my industry.

8/22/07

I didn't realize right away that was for an FT position...I would hope that one wouldn't look as down on a frosh or soph who puts that on their resume (and no, I don't work in the service/fast food industry)?

8/22/07

"im not sure if it's the case here, but it's really deplorable to reject an (otherwise strong) applicant just because he/she worked in a fast-food restaurant."

It would have killed the joke to explain it in my initial post, but just so you don't feel too sorry for the guy:

He didn't put his GPA on his resume. Or his SATs. Or any other number. I need at least something along those lines. If you don't include any of this, I have to assume that your numbers were bad.
His work history wasn't in chronological order.
His other work experience involved being an office assistant for four years -- essentially a secretary. In an unrelated industry.
He didn't include a cover letter when I specifically requested it.

In other words, I dinged him because he wasn't qualified. However, you could definitely draw a strong correlation between flipping burgers for five years and not being qualified. While flipping burgers every summer doesn't mean you're stupid, it does mean that you're not out there doing comps or DCFs or asset allocations or pitchbooks during your summers. And that hurts you in this field.

8/22/07

Are these for summer interns, or full time people?

8/22/07

"I didn't realize right away that was for an FT position...I would hope that one wouldn't look as down on a frosh or soph who puts that on their resume (and no, I don't work in the service/fast food industry)?"

Hell no... if I was looking at frosh or soph resumes, I wouldn't ding them for fast food. When you're under twenty, you take what you can get. I like to see people who are at least working hard and earning money in their late teens.

However, and this is true for the entire finance industry, your resume needs to start demonstrating some finance knowledge and experience by your senior year at the latest. There is a significant difference between flipping burgers at nineteen and flipping burgers at twenty-two. The former says you're young and you need cash. The latter says you either failed or never tried to get a real job or an internship. Big difference.

8/22/07

Walter, this is for full-time analysts. Most of the people I'm looking at have already graduated; a few will be graduating in December or May.

8/22/07

True enough -- finance internships are by far the easiest way into finance if you're a freshman or sophomore. I worked in wealth management at Wachovia, at a boutique, and at Goldman before I went into IB.

To Schumacher: I don't want to dive too deep into discussing my current firm (as usual), but it's an interesting situation. I actually hate wealth management and would never have considered it except at this one specific firm which is quite different. The specific things that make my firm more selective:

1: We don't market or sell anything. We have a waiting list of clients who've heard of us through word-of-mouth. We turn away clients because we're too small to handle them the way we want to. This is in stark contrast to your average wealth management firm that is only trying to increase AUM.

2: Our clients are in the $400 million and up range -- these are individuals the size of companies. That means each associate handles only 8-10 clients, and that the work is extremely complex. Part of what we do for them is buy and sell companies, hotels, jets, yachts, vineyards, newspapers, and so forth. We need people who can not only tear through a DCF in two hours, but who can also become private jet experts in ten days, create presentations for venture capitalists, and value a private company with no product and no revenues. In contrast, the average wealth management analyst just does rebalancings and allocations, with maybe a little concentrated-equity or derivatives work.

3: Our clients are primarily Hollywood, Napa, or Silicon Valley types. Each has specific needs that go far beyond traditional finance.

4: We are a tiny family-style office. Every single person we hire has to be approved by every single employee (in the true crazy California management style). If I see a candidate that I like, if I know that another particular person won't like him, I know not to bother.

Also, we have no HR department -- it's just me and a senior guy, slogging through hundreds of candidates. We are on auto-ding unless the candidate has something very special.

8/22/07
Mis Ind:

True enough -- finance internships are by far the easiest way into finance if you're a freshman or sophomore. I worked in wealth management at Wachovia, at a boutique, and at Goldman before I went into IB.

To Schumacher: I don't want to dive too deep into discussing my current firm (as usual), but it's an interesting situation. I actually hate wealth management and would never have considered it except at this one specific firm which is quite different. The specific things that make my firm more selective:

1: We don't market or sell anything. We have a waiting list of clients who've heard of us through word-of-mouth. We turn away clients because we're too small to handle them the way we want to. This is in stark contrast to your average wealth management firm that is only trying to increase AUM.

2: Our clients are in the $400 million and up range -- these are individuals the size of companies. That means each associate handles only 8-10 clients, and that the work is extremely complex. Part of what we do for them is buy and sell companies, hotels, jets, yachts, vineyards, newspapers, and so forth. We need people who can not only tear through a DCF in two hours, but who can also become private jet experts in ten days, create presentations for venture capitalists, and value a private company with no product and no revenues. In contrast, the average wealth management analyst just does rebalancings and allocations, with maybe a little concentrated-equity or derivatives work.

3: Our clients are primarily Hollywood, Napa, or Silicon Valley types. Each has specific needs that go far beyond traditional finance.

...dude i dont mean to be an a-hole although I am in a bad mood, but you work in private banking. No different then a broker at a BB for high net worth individuals who does things like arrange travel, look for high-end works of art, etc. for clients. There is nothing unique about this business.

8/22/07

Doch means indeed.

8/22/07

Let me guess...something special = a 3.5+ from Ivy and previous BB experience?

Yawn.

Eh, sorry I'm cynical tonight. I'll stop raining on the parade.

8/22/07

The White trash in you is showing Ind.

8/22/07

Yes, Seanc. One wouldn't try to conceal it -- futile, you know. Why, just last night as I sat down to my evening cornbread and collard greens with my fiance, I said, "Boy howdy, ain't I glad I up and came out west where I ain't had to p'tend I wadn't from the South no more." By the way, if you're ever in Atlanta, I hear my grandma gives excellent handjobs for twenty bucks. She's trying to keep my uncle's Camaro from getting repo'd. So help a sister out, all right? After all, we po but we proud.

Schumacher, not so much -- I am very bullish on ex-BB investment bankers with high GPAs, but the senior guy is somewhat less so. When we come to a consensus, it's usually about someone with an unusual story -- a guy from Wharton with a 3.2 who's from here originally and who's miserable at his BB PWM job in New Jersey, or a girl who did BB Lev Fin and hated it, or a girl who did boutique IB in LA and couldn't put up with the cultural fakeness in both the town and the industry. Most people who come here from the bulge brackets are the mavericks -- the people who couldn't or didn't drink the Kool-Aid. I think that's probably a better criteria for those who are coming to us from bulge brackets.

8/22/07

Ms. Ind, I have a question for you about your hiring process.

I'm a rising senior at Wharton major finance/acc. and I have had only one finance internship (equity analyst in equity research) for four months but did not intern this past junior summer.

I learned a lot, but after doing this internship I mostly learned about areas where I need work in....such as financial modeling and realizing the fact that a wharton finance education is BS useless joke.

I didn't intern because I wanted to broaden my skillset during the summer and take summer courses (graduating one semester early).

So instead of interning, I chose to take the CFA 1 and was able to pass it along with getting three financial modeling certs. I also took four college classes in the summer.

Will this hurt me significantly during FT recruiting fall due to the lack of a second internship and the fact that I did the ER one so long ago?

8/22/07

ms ind, I'm also curious about why you left banking? Were you told to get an MBA and let go?

Academically, my GPA at Wharton is quite poor, below 3, but I tried to make up for it by getting the CFA 1 and the FRM...the financial risk manager cert.

How do you view this in hiring?

8/22/07

Will the lack of a junior summer internship hurt you during FT recruiting? If you want to go to a BB IBD, then yes, even with the CFA 1 and whatever modeling certs you got from whatever company you got them from.

Does that mean you are screwed? Certainly not. It probably would have been better to go and do a big summer internship, but it sounds like you have plenty of fight left in you for fall recruiting. Also, remember that many of your competitors during fall recruiting didn't have great successful junior summer internships either, or else they'd probably have accepted those offers and would be off the market by now.

Good luck.

8/22/07

thanks a lot ms ind. I don't plan on going into a BB IBD (because my bad gpa) but investment management.

That's why I spent lots of time doing the cfa, frm, 3 modeling certs.

Will it hurt my chances as an analyst in asset management significantly?

I find it problematic to explain to an interviewer( or a recruitor who sees my resume) who may deem me trained in finance and modeling but lacking practical expereince utilizing these recently acquired skills.

How should I play this out in a positive way, for instance, to you?

8/22/07

Bondarb, I worked in wealth management for years. Trust me when I tell you that this is a very different company than Goldman or Wachovia. We don't buy art or arrange travel for clients. We do buy companies for them and arrange for venture capital for their next ideas. We don't sell securities or custody assets, and there's definitely no whiff of the brokerage about us. Nobody calls us because they lost 8% of their net worth overnight -- our clients have more money than they could ever spend. We're not even under SEC oversight.

I've always respected your opinions on the areas in which you work, but I can assure you that working with a $500 million client is an entirely different business than working with a $20 million client. These are individuals that function like corporations. There is M&A activity, and we advise on raising capital, selling shares, and so forth. I wouldn't have come here with an offer on the table from Carlyle had it not been an entirely different business than conventional wealth management.

8/22/07

Strangesituations, it's not so bad if you want to go to work in wealth management. If you get the chance to explain it, then definitely do so. If not, then don't worry -- you still have nothing to be ashamed of.

By the way, I left banking because there was just nothing about it I enjoyed, and I couldn't see myself doing it for many more years. I decided to put my toe in the water to see what would bite, and I got some great offers. It probably would have turned out differently had I not joined the BB IBD group that I joined. It had been rumored to be the worst in the bank, but there were so many various rumors flying around that I chose not to believe them. The group turned out to be a very bad choice. Most of the analysts were unhappy and many of them were considering leaving early. There was a general sense that there was no level of protection to keep analysts from getting destroyed with back-to-back-to-back all-nighters. I'm not talking about the normal back-to-backs, I'm talking third-years spending four days straight in the office with no thanks and no consideration, only to be told to go and get a half-night's sleep and come back to start a fresh project the next morning. Nobody was happy -- particularly not me. Hope that answers your question.

8/22/07

...first of all i wouldnt know about working with either a $20mm or a $500mm client since i have never worked with a client in my life. I just hate the self-egrandizing BS you post constantly about how great everything you do is. Last time i was here a few months ago you told me that you had run money at age 20, were offered $70mm dollars to become a rich man's girlfriend, and that your husband was an auto mechanic. I suspect you live in a bit of a fantasy world. And last time i also asked you out and you said no which means you must be a lesbian.

8/22/07

Thanks ms ind. That was very informative. I hope you are happy in your current role.

What sort of skills do you value most in PWM besides modeling and finance knowledge?

(besides previous expereince, of course)

My greatest fear in terms of facing a recruitor is explaining my GPA at wharton... I relaxed a lot once I got in and the competition is fierce and thus I was squashed.

There are so many incongruencies with my grades and the level of knowledge. For instance, I have a C in a risk management type course, but later on I put in 200+ hours of studying and passed the FRM cert, which should negate that previous red flag.

Would you be able to overlook the gpa if the necessary finance skills are demonstrated or will it be a permanent red flag for recruiting?

Btw, ignore bondarb, he's just trolling

8/22/07

Bondarb, I'm not sure that everything I do is great. My tenure as a BB analyst sucked, for instance.

I've already discussed all of this with you, but we can rehash if you like. I made speculative investment decisions at a relatively early age with a small Atlanta firm that was in its startup phase. They have pulled in a truly bizarre range of guys -- from weightlifters to college sophomores to the guy who ran their IT infrastructure (no joke!) -- and handed them each chunks of the fund to essentially run. You may feel free to visit them on the web at www.yieldquest.com. I no longer have any association with them and I imagine they barely remember me.

I was never offered $70mm to become a rich man's girlfriend. A rich man worth $70 million wanted me to become his girlfriend and eventual wife (sans prenup), at which time I would most likely have become worth half of his $70. This is not at all an uncommon situation -- just look at all the guys worth $70mm with trophy wives. If you're a young woman with decent conversation and a face that isn't hideous, I guarantee you that if you run in the same circles I did, that you will also receive the same offer. I don't see why this comes off as strange.

I've never said my husband was an auto mechanic and don't see how that could have been believed from anything I've ever said. I am not married and have not ever been. If it's your intent to attack me, you should perhaps pull up these posts so that we can determine that you're not just flinging mud using false memories. You're way off-base on some of these.

Also, are you quite sure you've read all my posts? You didn't attack me at all for being a NASKA martial arts champion, for my bisexuality, or for my brief stuntwork appearance in the movie "Mortal Kombat". If you're going to attack everything I am, you might as well get the whole picture, right?

8/22/07

...were u really a stunt woman in Mortal Kombat? I missed that one. Also the martial arts championship and the bisexuality. I obviously havent read all the posts but they do sound interesting. I usually avoid girls who claim to be bisexual b/c i feel they are attention-seekers but i might consider letting you buy me dinner tommorow night if you ask nicely.

8/22/07

Considering how critical it is that you think highly of me, I'll fly right over. Per Se? 7:30? I'll be the one in the vintage Chanel tweed with the pearls. Dress code is evening semiformal, but be ready for action underneath. Looking forward to it. Mrrrow.

8/22/07

...oh u r such a wimp...sarcasm is the lowest form of communication. How about this: per se, 7:30p, and i'll even pay provided the us yield curve steepens tommorow...i am breaking my bisexuality rule which is big for me and i am a senior monkey which i know you respect.

8/22/07

...and understand that getting into per se tommorow night at 7:30p isnt going to be easy but i will do it...

8/22/07

sorry to jump in on the fun...but Miss Ind, would you mind addressing a question of mine regarding IBD info sessions? Specifically, I was wondering if, once the speakers are done talking, we would be better off spending our time schmoozing with the actual investment bankers, or the recruiters from the firm. For summer analyst positions, which have more say in the initial resume sorting process.

Thanks for your help and sorry again to interrupt the thread.

8/22/07

enjoyable.

+1

8/22/07

yea, i would like mine answered too....

"Would you be able to overlook the gpa if the necessary finance skills are demonstrated or will it be a permanent red flag for recruiting?"

Ms. ind, what were the most valuable skills that you acquired as an analyst? besides financial statements, modeling m and a.

8/22/07

strangesituations, i think the answer in your case is probably "it depends". if the gpa is too low, then no, if the work experience is really good, then yes. If neither of these fits, then the answer is unfortunately somewhere in the middle.

8/22/07

I think it's pathetic that you derive some perverse pleasure from making fun of people's resumes. It's regrettable that not everyone's an overachiever like yourself but the least you could do is cut them slack.

Secondly, none of the comments you posted are even remotely funny. It's clear that most people on this board don't appreciate the drivel you're posting, so I strongly suggest you instead use your time to educate these applicants on what they should or should not include in their resumes.

8/22/07
Seanc:

I think it's pathetic that you derive some perverse pleasure from making fun of people's resumes. It's regrettable that not everyone's an overachiever like yourself but the least you could do is cut them slack.

That's what's so funny though: she isn't an overachiever, she's a huge UNDERachiever.

She stumbled in to a BB analyst gig as one of the oldest people there (i think she was like 25 when she started), then couldn't hack it a quit after 1 year to go to "boutique" PWM gig. LOL

8/22/07

that guy who worked as a burger associate 7 years in a row is a complete idiot, as is anyone who tried to defend him.

why the hell does a fast food place need a sales associate anyway, are those the people i talk to in the drive thru?

in this day and age there is no reason for a middle-class teenager--LET ALONE A COLLEGE STUDENT-- to ever work at a fast food place. my first job when i was 15 was at a smoothie place in the mall. then i worked as an usher/concessionist at AMC theatres. i also worked at abercrombie at one point. all shitty jobs (nothing id EVER put on a resume) but not nearly as bad and degrading as flipping burgers, getting sweaty and pimply and treated like shit at McDonalds.

8/22/07

The idea is not that the kid was flipping burgers, that is a respectable job. The idea was that even as this kid progressed through college, he did not pursue other jobs. There really is not much of an excuse for why someone flipped burgers their summer before senior year. A resume should paint a clear picture of your progression to the job that you are currently applying for. Going from McD's to PWM leaves a big gap and also calls into question the dedication and maturity of the candidate.

And I hate to say it, but some resumes are just kind of funny / sad. Tell me you don't get a kick out of someone attempting to glorify their work at The Gap or when little Jimmy Hotshot names himself the CEO/Co-Founder of "Hotshot & Co's Webdesign" and pretends like he is an entrepreneur.

CompBanker

8/22/07

I can't believe the reactions of some of the people here. It's easy to tell who has screened resumes before and who hasn't. When you're all done being indignant, consider this --- you're being given a rare opportunity to get a perspective from the other side of the table. You can whine or you can learn the lesson.

I reviewed around 200-300 resumes within the past year to hire roughly 10 full-time hires, 8-10 temps, and 6 interns for mostly back office support at a Fortune 500 (not a bank). I wouldn't even bother interviewing someone who's only experience was 5 summers of burgers. Not even for an internship, unless I saw something else in the education or extra-curriculars that was outstanding. And these are low-skill entry level positions, requiring far less sophistication than an investment banking analyst.

Here's a news flash reminder of the blatantly obvious: Investment banking is a competitive and selective field. The qualifications are well published and not a secret.

Sorry if anyone's feelings are hurt, but there are lots of other jobs and careers out there. You can either put in the effort to qualify yourself, or just move on.

8/23/07
Restructure This:

I can't believe the reactions of some of the people here. It's easy to tell who has screened resumes before and who hasn't. When you're all done being indignant, consider this --- you're being given a rare opportunity to get a perspective from the other side of the table. You can whine or you can learn the lesson.

I reviewed around 200-300 resumes within the past year to hire roughly 10 full-time hires, 8-10 temps, and 6 interns for mostly back office support at a Fortune 500 (not a bank). I wouldn't even bother interviewing someone who's only experience was 5 summers of burgers. Not even for an internship, unless I saw something else in the education or extra-curriculars that was outstanding. And these are low-skill entry level positions, requiring far less sophistication than an investment banking analyst.

Here's a news flash reminder of the blatantly obvious: Investment banking is a competitive and selective field. The qualifications are well published and not a secret.

Sorry if anyone's feelings are hurt, but there are lots of other jobs and careers out there. You can either put in the effort to qualify yourself, or just move on.

Too bad it's for a crappy PWM job and not banking.

8/23/07

i think the general impression was that a kid was being dinged just for having a burger experience on his resume. If someone had just this (and little else), I'd be surprised if anyone here would hesitate to throw the resume into the trash.

8/23/07

Anyone else have interesting resume stories to tell? I can think of two.

One i-banking analyst applicant's resume was too impressive. He started his own company while in college, raised millions in funding, and eventually had over 300 employees before the internet bubble popped. We chose not to interview him. To go from that to maintaining comps and other analyst BS would have been too big a change (plus his resume didn't show any interest in banking).

A different applicant (this time for a small fund PE job) listed "cats" under the personal section of his resume. When the interviewer asked him about it, he said that he currently had 8 of them as pets. This probably wouldn't have prevented him from doing the job, but it weirded us all out and I think hurt his chances.

8/23/07

Schumacher, it's cool. I've been around for a while on this board . There are always gasps and fingerpointing around my general lack of respect for poor resume composition. My hope is that someday folks will understand that it's not the individuals I'm hating on, but their inability to cover up (and occasionally their willingness to advertise) their occasionally-hilarious shortcomings. If there's one thing I want everyone to take away from this, it's not that they're not supposed to flip burgers or play video games, but that they should pay very close attention to every word of their resume from the viewpoint of the interviewer.

My cool company -- well, you should understand that it's quite a change for me. I hated my last company. Not just my group within the investment bank, but the incompetent HR, the disappearing IT staff, and the constant stupid mottoes being generated by the big guys in their big offices. In contrast, my new company is very California -- we have life coaches and Aeron chairs, and upon joining I was asked what the company could do to help me actualize myself -- but it is also very cool. And I say that in joy and relief, because it's certainly not the norm for me. I'm not the kind of person who works at cool companies. I'm the kind of person who works at crappy companies. Hell, I did time in Wachovia PWM as a sophomore.

After a year of heavy dealflow at a bulge-bracket IB and with great relationships with four big recruiters and one small recruiter, I had decent options. Out of the 30+ jobs I actively considered and could easily have gotten, including big PE and other bulge-bracket investment banks, there's a reason this one stood out for me, and a reason I took it. That reason is that it's the coolest damn job I saw. Everyone else wanted me to be an analyst -- but on the basis of age and gravitas, this company wanted me as a partner-track associate and offered me my own clients, many of whom I already knew about and looked up to. I was like, "Wait, I get to work with that guy whose podcasts I download religiously? And that guy whose wine I drink?" Throw in pay that is 90% of a top-bucket bulge-bracket IBD analyst's, hours that are half that of said analyst, and I'm sold. Y'all can hate all you want, but by the time I'm done vacationing in both Sonoma and Vegas every month (if I care to), buying my big house on the peninsula, buying my fiance his dream car, working my fifty with my awesome ex-Berkeley analysts, and spending three to four hours every day on leisure and fitness, I probably won't have much time to look back and think, "Oh man, they were right! I should have stayed in the investment bank!"

8/23/07

What do you do on a daily basis in your associate role at PWM?

8/23/07

Firm description sounds more like PE/HF than PWM.

Also, much better to see something similar on your resume getting laughed at on an anonymous online forum than in the real thing.

8/23/07

Today (and this is a fairly average day) I'm building a pitchbook to help a client sell his idea/company to Siemens, liquidating $2.5m of a normally-illiquid asset to cover a client's yacht purchase, calling the tax guy to model out taxation for that sale and the rest of the position, doing phone interviews with analyst candidates, trying to trade for a better running back in our office fantasy football league, digging through associate candidate resumes, making sure a client's sale of a small company went through yesterday, and building a better client scheduling model to ensure that the senior partner isn't as overloaded as he has been recently.

I've done sexier things than this, such as model out the optimal exercise schedule, tax schedule, and cash flow schedule for $300m in concentrated options on a highly volatile stock of a company for which the client is the CEO (and thus all trades have to conform to the laws involving insider trading), but that's what I'm doing today, for what it's worth.

8/23/07

So basically the brunt of your work is modeling various transactions?

thanks a lot for the insight

8/23/07

Depends on what you call a transaction. I'll probably never be called upon to build an LBO here. But in terms of how these very large transactions affect the complex tax structure and cash flows and asset allocations of an individual (who, bear in mind, is actually a tangle of trusts and LLCs and C-corps and charities and S-corps by the time he becomes our client), there is significant modeling. Similarly to investment banking, our models tend to run to 25-30 worksheets and contain significant VBA work. I'll probably end up getting more of a modeling workout here than I did at a bulge-bracket investment bank due to the heavy VBA exposure.

Disclaimer: My firm is a freak of nature and this is not at all what PWM is normally like. Do not go into PWM if you are looking for heavy modeling exposure.

8/23/07

Hi, thanks a lot for the important insight once again.

When you were an analyst at BB, did you extensively use VBA? I don't know an ounce of VBA, is it important to learn this as soon as possible? How long does it take to learn VBA to a competent level?

A lot of the transactions you describe, I've never been exposed to them as a student. I'm assuming that you picked them up during your BB stint?

Another question, how many analysts do you supervise?

8/23/07

wow MisInd, your PWM gig is SO hardcore!

8/23/07

can you put more resume stories?

8/23/07
Mis Ind:

Candidate 6: Fanatic video gamer (mainly console).

just noticed the "mainly console" lmao. what a freakin douchebag, these people need to be slapped (as do all your haters on this board and everyone who gets offended when you post these resumes)

this is not as good as your old resume post though, that one was meaner, funnier.

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8/23/07

Thanks, h4zin. I was wondering why nobody was laughing about that one. I thought it was freaking hilarious, particularly because I'm a video gamer myself (mainly PC these days, but I have also been known to break out the little plastic mini-guitar, turn my amps to 11, and rock out).

I think you can have a lot more fun with IBD candidates than PWM candidates, though. After all, IBD guys are supposed to be at the very top of the heap. The candidates I'm looking at now are more real, more normal, and less conformist. There's just less to laugh about. Sorry I'm not able to be at the top of my game this time around.

Popping: I'd say it's hardcore, except that I'm usually home by 7:00 and I've worked all of eight total hours on weekends in the last ten weeks. I don't think any gig can be hardcore at 50-55 hours a week. There's nothing hardcore about standing up at 6:30 and saying, "Welp, that's enough for one day. I'll do all this tomorrow or the day after." It's just too damn relaxed to be hardcore.

Strangesituations, don't worry about VBA. If you need it, you'll learn it on the job, but chances are that you won't need it. It's fairly specialized.

Right now I have one dedicated analyst and half of a shared analyst. When we are fully staffed, each associate will have two dedicated analysts and part of a third shared analyst. Analysts work the same hours we do -- around 50-55.

8/24/07

Mis Ind, I'm guessing your firm is not very well known - as in it's not a household name such as GS where every man knows about it and could easily send a resume in for his dog.

Why do you have all these underperformers who are aware of your firm and apply for it?

In any case, I agree that PWM or WM is nothing like what you're doing.

8/23/07

I don't really care about the content of these resumes. I'm bothered by some of you douchebags making fun of them.

I do get annoyed when some idiot posts this garbage on here. Personally, If I knew someone in reality who was doing this type of shit, they'd be choking on their own fuckin' teeth.

8/23/07
Seanc:

I don't really care about the content of these resumes. I'm bothered by some of you douchebags making fun of them.

I do get annoyed when some idiot posts this garbage on here. Personally, If I knew someone in reality who was doing this type of shit, they'd be choking on their own fuckin' teeth.

Seriously, the moral high-ground is already packed around here. Sure there's room for you too?

What would make this thread gold would be pictures. Next time you advertise for a position, ask for a photo to be included with the resume. Can you imagine the flaming session that would accompany that?

It's a little tongue-in-cheek, but do it. I'd laugh.

8/23/07

Hey Mis Ind,

How is your firm compensated by clients, considering how "bespoke" your services are?

8/23/07

Pete, we are a flat fee as a percent of total assets. No commissions, no kickbacks, no conflicts of interest. It's kind of nice compared to what I've seen -- at Wachovia, the advisors were churning to make their commission, and at Goldman they were putting clients into funds with inflated expenses (and significant soft-dollar transactions on top of that) in order to bump up the fees.

8/23/07

Fast food experience ought to make someone the ideal candidate for a job in wealth management.

Everyone I know in wealth management says the clients are entitled scumbags who make endless demands.

All that separates them from the folks in line at McDonald's is their net worth.

The best story I even heard about the kind of morons you encounter in wealth management was a rich woman calling in the middle of the night needing help using an ATM. She didn't know about PIN numbers.

She had enough money that Northern Trust sent someone to her house with the cash she needed.

8/23/07

I've experienced lots of clients. The ones I worked with on the East Coast were generally morons. I remember one eighty-year-old client at Goldman who simply couldn't understand the concept of options, even though he had a lot of them.

Of course, in places like Silicon Valley, one works with clients who have high IQs, who are young, involved, capable. Not only do they know how to use an ATM, they also created and built the technology and websites most of us use every day for things like sharing video clips, buying books/movies/videos, searching the web, and networking.

So I think the answer is that there are two types of clients: good and bad. You want to be serving the intellectual visionaries, not the people who are rich because their fathers or husbands were rich.

8/23/07

Does your firm deal with any Japanese clients? (west coast was flooded with them in the 90's)

Anyways, I have a friend (American) who is a second year analyst at Lehman Brothers Japan who wants to relocate to the west coast. Fluent in Japanese and getting VERY good at Korean. Wants to keep a lot of his focus on Asian markets though, but he is an all around renaissance man.

Doesnt come from a "top" school though, so if thats a problemo with your firm let me know and I will tell him to not waste his time (which if you know anything about Japan, he has no time) or yours. Thanks

8/23/07

What area of Lehman? Sounds like an interesting guy. Schools aren't really an issue here -- we specifically target Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, and a few others, but we're looking at people from all over at the moment. And if he's worked in Japan, he'll have a lot of mannerisms that will help him here.

I innately do the business-card ritual (and the Japanese martial arts subculture I grew up in was culturally very Japanese, so I retained the body language, senior mirroring, and female facilitation quirks as well as the stupid gaijin/stupid girl trick), and when I exhibited Japanese-style mannerisms with a particular client (American), he grinned and said, "Ah. You've done business with the Japanese, I see. Excellent. I like that."

8/23/07
Mis Ind:

Schools aren't really an issue here -- we specifically target Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, and a few others, but we're looking at people from all over at the moment.

Please, only abject failures from those schools would want to work at your firm.

8/26/07
Mis Ind:

What area of Lehman? Sounds like an interesting guy. Schools aren't really an issue here -- we specifically target Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, and a few others, but we're looking at people from all over at the moment. And if he's worked in Japan, he'll have a lot of mannerisms that will help him here.

I innately do the business-card ritual (and the Japanese martial arts subculture I grew up in was culturally very Japanese, so I retained the body language, senior mirroring, and female facilitation quirks as well as the stupid gaijin/stupid girl trick), and when I exhibited Japanese-style mannerisms with a particular client (American), he grinned and said, "Ah. You've done business with the Japanese, I see. Excellent. I like that."

wow, you should've left that ENTIRE 2nd paragraph out....ugh

_______________________________________
http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/

8/23/07

SOMEBODY SHUT THIS WOMAN UP FOR CHRISSAKES

8/23/07

Can you people stop disrespecting her pwm job? It's shallow and annoying.

8/23/07
strangesituations:

Can you people stop disrespecting her pwm job? It's shallow and annoying.

So you don't think the entire premise of this thread is shallow?

8/23/07

Your resumA(c) schtick could be funny, Miss Ind, but it actually comes across as lame and annoying. The fact that you have to explain the punchlines makes it all the more pathetic.

Yes, the kids you are describing are severely lacking in relevant experience and wholly unprofessional. But nobody outside of your firm cares. Stereotypical Wall Street arrogance needn't find its way onto an anonymous forum. You're not giving a "wake up call" or a "recruiter's point of view" to high finance job candidates with these particular examples. And no offense, but your haughty attitude and falsely indignant, lengthy rants about "how-tough-this-business-is" make you sound like a real bitch.

8/23/07

It might be shallow, but it doesn't seem too different from when someone from North Dakota State asks if they can work at GS, and then blasted for being a po dunk and for going to a tier 8 school.

Regardless, if you're killing time at work, this place can be entertaining.

8/23/07

Please more examples of resumes, and less blabbing about your life. I enjoy your resume examples though.

Clear, concise, to the point, this is a finance board after all no?

8/23/07

...i am highly impressed. So Miss Ind, you so immersed yourself in your kung fu training that you "went native" and developed the mannerisms of an actual Japanese woman? Was it like Kill Bill II when Uma trained with that guy with the funny beard? After your childhood spent training in the black arts of Japanese kung fu what turned you towards human resources?

8/24/07

Hahaha this thread is funny on so many levels.

I would imagine that people looking through resumes for recruiting analysts would be too focused on finding quality applicants to waste time laughing at people who clearly have no idea how the system works, but hell what do I know

But Miss Ind if you really wanted to have fun and a good laugh, you should pick the most clueless of these candidates and bring them in for an interview, then screw with them.

8/24/07

Great ones, Bondarb. I've never studied kung fu. That's a Chinese art. I studied solely Japanese martial arts -- Yoshukai, Shotokan, Iaido, and enough Aikido to make the Iaido stick. No real "black arts" in Japan (ninjutsu is largely a joke these days), and kung fu certainly doesn't qualify as a "black art" in China by most people's standards. I work in PWM, not HR, as you're well aware, though certainly with this new assignment I've ended up spending far too much of my time digging through resumes.

In terms of Japanese womanhood versus manhood -- there were certainly no room for hai-hai girls in any of the dojo I trained at. I suppose it was a sort of honorary manhood -- I came of age speaking masculine Japanese, not feminine Japanese, because that's what my teachers spoke. It caused my first Japanese language teacher outside martial arts to laugh at me constantly. Inside the dojo, I was one of the guys. I learned the hai-hai trick working for Americans, actually. Turns out that the things you learn doing business with Japanese people can be highly useful with Americans too.

I also wouldn't say I 'immersed myself'. Since I didn't go to school or spend time with people outside the art, that's just who I was.

My friends kept asking me to see that movie because I was "just like" Uma's character. When I finally saw it, the thing was painful. I truly loathe martial arts movies of all sorts.

I think the reason my life comes off as so difficult to believe is that so many of you haven't known anyone who's made radically different life choices. Think of all the thousands upon thousands of hours your average decently-intelligent IBOasis monkey has spent on television, family, music, magazines, high school, et cetera from age 10 onwards. Now take all of those hours and put them into solely worthwhile or unusual things. Not leisure: study. Self-polishing. I didn't think this was all that unusual, but as folks continue to be surprised and skeptical, it must be.

You guys really don't get out much if you've never met a twenty-six year old with rich and varied experiences before. Not everyone follows the rules or drinks the societal Kool-Aid.

8/24/07

ms ind

your firm actually sounds pretty interesting. i think a few people on the board are just wound up because exit ops are drying up? just a guess.. it's nice to see something new on this board - which died when everybody found out about it. if people still remember, this used to be a great board to further our careers and mis ind tends to help people have a different perspective on everything.

how many people do you tend to take per yr? how long has it been around? any growth strategies since it has "too much business"?

any regrets? i also believe you mentioned you were offered a position at a top PE? or did i imagine that..

8/24/07

Nickelbags, we're taking at least seven more analysts and three more associates this year. It's essentially my job and my mentor's job to ensure that we grow constructively rather than destructively -- a tall order since we are nearly doubling the amount of hands on deck.

Firm's been around for about thirty years, growth strategy is "Get as many great people as fast as possible and don't screw up, Mis Ind, because the whole firm is depending on you to bring in only the very best people while still handling your normal workload and these four very important side projects." Or at least, that's what it feels like to me. Heh.

No regrets. I live in a large, beautiful home in the town with the world's most perfect climate (it's true; google "Redwood City" and "best climate"), I can buy whatever I want, travel wherever I want, pamper my wonderful fiance, get all the sleep I want, and still have time for leisure, fitness, and writing the Great American Novel. I can buy a nice house in a few years, have kids, keep my sanity, and work on myself the way I once did. I've literally never been this happy in my entire life. And that includes the most idyllic moments of my childhood.

Yeah: zero regrets. I've always had more on my plate to accomplish than the New York IBD / PE track would permit. I'm not saying this would be a good path for everyone, but it is the right one for me. A year in IB was useful, though -- it got me this exit opportunity.

8/24/07

Trampled, there are essentially two paths to us. The first is through one of the three recruiters that we work with, and the second is through the schools at which we recruit. Having a job posted on these schools' online job site has turned out to be a mixed bag. On the one hand, I've gotten plenty of recent graduate resumes -- good for me, because I would rather not wait until May to get these people. On the other hand, I think in college we all knew somebody (or several somebodies, in my case) who waited until senior year to think about what they were going to do for a living. Those somebodies are clearly flocking in droves to my job spec.

8/24/07

This is pathetic.

And I say pathetic because I emailed Miss Ind several months ago asking if she'd be interested in looking over my resume and giving me a thumbs up or a thumbs down after I read an older thread of hers like this. Needless to say, I received no reply. I now no longer need any type of resume review, but reading this drivel is terrible.

She wouldn't even reply to a request to constructively look over a resume real quick, but she has time to post this horse shit about honest applicants making an effort. I guess it must feel good to have a decent job after all those years you were laughed at in high school huh? Revenge sure is sweet huh Miss Ind!

What a joke. Privately joking about applicants is one thing, but public humiliation to improve your status on this forum is repulsive and disgraceful.

Also, it's pretty funny reading her attempts to rationalize and prove to everyone how great a life she has. Gj Miss Ind...the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

8/24/07
greenman101:

the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

Wtf is the point of your post then?

Seriously, people keep asking on this forum about "what recruiters look for/don't look for". Now that someone actually posts examples of what not to do, people complain about how mean she's being.

8/24/07

The point of my post is to announce how she's more interested in getting some laughs and "forum status points" by making fun of these people than she is in telling people what she looks for or helping people out with some insight.

She attacks their personal work experience; not their resume. There is a difference between providing criticism of the resume, and providing criticism of their work experience and accomplishments.

And hey, Miss Ind, I can surely appreciate you were too busy to look at mine. I took no offense. However, when you're too busy to respond to direct requests for help, but aren't too busy to post crap like this that denigrates people's personal work for the sake of a few laughs then it reflects poorly on you.

I have no patience for accomplished people who look down and snub the little guys who are trying to work hard and get ahead. It's pathetic. You were once in that position yourself.

freeloader:
greenman101:

the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

Wtf is the point of your post then?

Seriously, people keep asking on this forum about "what recruiters look for/don't look for". Now that someone actually posts examples of what not to do, people complain about how mean she's being.

8/24/07
greenman101:

She attacks their personal work experience; not their resume. There is a difference between providing criticism of the resume, and providing criticism of their work experience and accomplishments.

With all due respect, those "experiences" you speak of are absolutely terrible and absolutely deserve to be made fun of. If a senior in college is dumb enough to work 6 summers at McDonalds or seriously thinks "fanatic video gamer" is appropriate or relevant to a resume, then they absolutely deserve to be laughed at.

You may have no tolerance for the accomplished people, but I have less tolerance for the mediocre people who don't have the common sense to read any one of the hundreds of resume writing guides on the internet before submitting it to an actual employer.

8/24/07
Mis Ind:

I get around two private message requests a week to review resumes on IBO. I do my best to get around to them...

True. I can't review each resume I get in 5 seconds and give solid feedback. I like to spend some time, try to give quality advice. Unfortunately, sometimes I have the time, most of the time I don't.

greenman101:

This is pathetic...reading this drivel is terrible.

Mis Ind gives good advice to you kids... if you don't like what she's writing that's perfectly fine. Just ignore it. No need to get into personal attacks and judgments.

8/24/07
aadpepsi:

True. I can't review each resume I get in 5 seconds and give solid feedback. I like to spend some time, try to give quality advice. Unfortunately, sometimes I have the time, most of the time I don't.

Mis Ind gives good advice to you kids... if you don't like what she's writing that's perfectly fine. Just ignore it. No need to get into personal attacks and judgments.

I agree with pepsi-cola. Ms Ind does give good advice and insight from her experiences. Her comments (at least most of them) are a great addition to the value of this forum. In fact, her posts detailing job functions and recruiting aspects should be highly valuable to most of you.

However, not to judge you or anything Ms Ind, but the flak that you get constantly seems to come from the fact that this IS an anonymous internet forum.

I can't judge you because I don't know you, but you do have a tendency to constantly promote yourself which strikes me as kind of odd. I've dated many women who do that...and it generally hints at a person with emotional immaturity and insecurity; someone with deep set personal issues.

Your constant attention-seeking stories about your life seem wild, strange, and detract from your credibility. From your posts talking about your bisexual threesome experiences to your claims of not ever attending high school, getting a GED to a decent college... and getting into banking analyst positions. Not to mention, your claims of being a karate champion (trained by karate masters) to being high society socialite.

You must see how your barrage of claims start appearing odd? Why would someone who has done these things feel a need to spill it out constantly on an anonymous forum?

In any event, your posts are largely very valuable but if you want to avoid flak, you could cool it with the unrelated stuff.

8/24/07

Sorry, dude. First, I get around two private message requests a week to review resumes on IBO. I do my best to get around to them all, but my job comes first -- and several months ago, I was involved in moving my life and my career from New York to San Francisco. Clearly I've offended you by not reviewing your resume, and I apologize. However, as you said, this is only an internet forum. You don't have a right to my help. If I have time to help you, I will, and if I don't, I won't. It's not personal.

Also, going a little further along the not-personal lines, I didn't go to high school and I certainly didn't laugh at you or get laughed at there. I don't know where you're coming from or what kind of emotional stuff you've got tied up in your resume, but please understand that I don't know you and I'm not laughing at your resume. Unless you are one of the above applicants.

8/24/07
Mis Ind:

Also, going a little further along the not-personal lines, I didn't go to high school and I certainly didn't laugh at you or get laughed at there.

If you didn't goto high school, wtf did you do during that time? Spend all your time at the dojo?

8/24/07

C'mon, if you're not going to live in The City you should at least be in Menlo Park, Woodside, PA or Atherton. I'd choose Burlingame or Mountain View over RC.

;)

8/24/07

Those resumes are wonderfully bad.
I should tell my friend Tom to not put his gaming strengths on his resume. Hah.

8/24/07

Regardless, anyone who is actually serious about trying to get into a similar field, should not be taking advice from a forum so seriously. There is a ton of misinformation floating around that really might steer you in the wrong direction.

8/24/07

You misunderstand me. Why on earth would I care about forum points? One gets nothing for them. I suppose I have a lot of them, but that's only because I've been on this forum for such a long time, and because for a long time it was one of the sole pleasures I could access while working.

Also, regarding ad hominem attacks: look at my discussion of the "fanatic video gamer (mainly console)". Did I not immediately turn around and say that I was also an avid video gamer, but that I had known not to put it on my resume? There's an excellent example of the fact that it's the resumes I find funny, not the individuals.

I think people are so sensitive about this issue because they are frightened. There wouldn't be this much controversy (and I wouldn't receive such constant requests for resume critiques) if people didn't have their self-esteem wrapped up in their resumes and if they weren't secretly frightened of being ignored, laughed at, or what have you. This is a visceral issue, particularly for people in college who are stepping out into the real world on the strength of a single sheet of paper that must adhere to a complex set of rules that they don't understand.

This is understandable, of course. It's even understandable that you would attack someone that you felt was personally attacking you. My point is that I'm not. Chill out, my friend.

By the way: I'm not in the habit of dredging my PM inbox for messages I might have skimmed and then failed to respond to. That's why I'm now spending time on IBO without having reviewed your resume. You slipped through the cracks, and I'm terribly sorry about that. In an effort to improve customer service as much as possible, I will be happy to review your resume for free now that I have sufficient time to do it. Rest assured that this will never happen again.

8/24/07

Sternfox, I can see your point. I'm not really sure there's a good reason to keep my life and personality a tight secret, and at the same time there's no reason to inject it where it doesn't belong. I had thought that the things I've discussed followed the natural flow of a conversation or illustrated a point I or someone else made. Certainly, I haven't forced the entirety of my oddnesses into public view willy-nilly; there's a lot more that have simply never come up nor been germane to a conversation. For example (not as a boast, but as support for this point), I know how to weave on a floor loom, sew, embroider, fletch, make butter and cheese, make maille, dish steel armor, cut and sew leather armor, and lead small units (20-30 men) of melee infantry on a field against similar units. I'm familiar with Japanese tea ceremony, brush calligraphy, ikebana, European steel nib and flat nib calligraphy, gilding, medieval bookbinding, and illumination. I also have more assorted interests and pursuits that probably aren't as interesting. It sounds like a lot to someone who's on the outside, but I guarantee you that sixteen years of constant daily progress provide plenty of time to get it all done... and there was still plenty of room for relaxing, video games, and relationships.

In other words, I'm an iconoclast. Whether I try or not, I can't successfully pretend to be normal or average. I've tried. Instead of coming off as weird but accomplished, I come off as weird and strangled. I can't pretend to be coming from any other point of view than the real one. If I did, I'd be too caught up in maintaining a false mask of normalcy to be helpful here.

Perhaps the fact that I'd have a hard time offering credentials online makes people suspect the truth of what I'm saying? I don't run into these problems in real life -- very few people have ever raised an eyebrow to my face, and at that point, if I care, it's easy enough to put them in touch with the right people or walk them to a computer and have them Google me.

A while back, when people were saying I definitely wasn't a banker, I took a quick shot of my apartment in New York with my Blackberries, some other various banker gear, and my sole remaining trophy from my NASKA days. If you care and it would prove anything for you (such as my NASKA credentials), you could look that up. I think I posted it in the "Monkeying Around" folder.

8/24/07

Hey Mis Ind since you're such a big martial artist, how about you and I knuckle up one of these days when I make a visit to Cali ??

Tell you what, I'll fight you with my weaker arm, how about that ?

These martial arts credentials you boast off don't mean shit, any girl with a year's training in boxing and wrestling could wipe the floor with you.....Sick and tired of hearing you barking about yourself, you've got a severe case of verbal diarrhea woman

8/24/07

Well, in any event I hope you see why so many people kind of doubt the things you say and would attack you. I mean, the claims that you are giving in your post right now are extremely unusual.

I mean, it sounds like you are a female Batman! The last time I took karate was when I was eight, and Master something-moto charged us up the ass and I still can't do a split.

Keep in mind, I'm not telling you what you should or should not do...I don't really have the right to do that.

8/24/07

Avarice, I left school in order to compete on the NASKA circuit. And because I couldn't stand the place. It was a public high school in suburban Georgia.

Seanc, I would be happy to spar if we could keep it friendly. It sounds like you want to step into the ring in anger, though. That wouldn't be constructive for either one of us. As for a girl with a year's training -- I don't see the logic. I trained very hard for many years and did well against people with similar training. Just FYI, my NASKA titles were nearly all in kata or forms, not sparring. In sparring I did well in the regionals, but point-fighting was never my bag compared to kata, and I was consistently finishing 5th to 15th in national sparring as compared to 1st through 3rd in forms and weapons. In other words, I'm no genius in the ring with the judges and the little padded gloves and booties. Of course, that type of sparring has little to do with real fighting anyway.

Sternfox, my beginning goal at ten was pretty much along the lines of turning myself into some sort of superhuman person. I was in a very bad situation and there was no more room for me to be either a child or a so-so adult. It's not surprising that, after I did some of the things I thought I should do, I come off sounding like Batman now at twenty-six. That's kind of what I was aiming for when I was a child. I actually ended up failing every single goal I set for myself, though. Which is fine: that's what they were there for. I aimed very high, I missed completely, and I still did well for myself.

As I said before -- people like me are unusual but not entirely unique. It sounds like perhaps you haven't been exposed to a wide range of people.

8/24/07

I'm not involved with resume reviews in my firm but we certainly discuss it over the proverbial water cooler (i.e. over a quick take out dinner at 8pm). Anyway what Mis Ind writes is pretty similar to what you will hear people say, and in real life it is usually much more trivial.

Couple of examples: One kid had a very competitive resume but under interests put "Impressionist art". He was instantly dinged, the reviewer's exact words when she was telling me the story were "I wouldn't want to work with that pretentious asshole".

Another girl had a part-time job listed as a dog walker (along with actually relevant work experience, it was clearly just a space filler) and she tried to flesh it out but it came out very comically ("Was responsible for over 20 dogs grooming, walking," etc). Anyway she was referred to as "dog girl" for a while. She actually had a 3.8 from one of our target schools and decent work experience so otherwise she would have been a very viable candidate but she got instantly dinged.

My firm has nothing against dogs but to show that kind of poor judgement in your resume displays a lack of social awareness. If you're going to talk about your dog-walking job for a 1/4 of your resume, what will you tell our client tomorrow? At its heart, consulting and investment banking are sales positions and you have to have at least a little bit of salesman in you at ANY level to succeed. Those social skills and awareness are largely what firms are looking for when they talk about "fit" and if you think putting "avid console gamer" or "dog walker" on your resume is a good idea then you are clearly demonstrating a lack of that skill.

Seriously, don't get mad at this stuff. There's no real way to prove this but I have a feeling that a very large proportion of the indignant posters in this thread don't have a lot of exposure to a competitive workplace.

8/24/07

Hey, nevermind, I take back my posts.

I didn't realize Miss Ind was a nutjob and likely some kind of strange pathological liar. She apparently has been grooming herself to be the perfect human since age 10 and has some kind of self confidence crisis. Hence all the posts in the forum about how awesome and great her life is and how foolish the "resumes" are she receives.

8/24/07
boozer:

Those social skills and awareness are largely what firms are looking for when they talk about "fit"...

I'm too social. In fact, I'm not even scheduled to interview entry level candidates any more. Unless my team is undecided about someone, in which case I'm brought in for a tie breaking opinion. My colleagues are such hard ball interviewers, on purpose too. Since I'm much more social, I'll get the kids to let their guard down. As a result, I'll draw more things out and make much better character judgments on a candidate vs. my colleagues. At the same time, being social has its drawbacks too. It would be defeating for me to interview every single entry level candidate because I'll just like everybody and want to give everybody a job!

Now on the contrary, the experienced candidates... I'm great with them. They tend to be more practiced, more rehearsed, so the social skills help because I can diffuse the bull pretty quickly.

8/24/07

I think you're taking this a little far, Greenman. Didn't we all spend at least some of our teenage years improving ourselves? Didn't you?

I know several people with a similar scope of experiences and skills to my own. Perhaps that's just because I run in the same circles, but it's really not that uncommon. Some of my competitors on the NASKA circuit had been trained by their parents from the time they could walk and had never set foot in a school. Some of my friends in my medieval arts group were geniuses in other ways -- they could forge steel or make astrolabes or command a shield wall -- all things I can't do. One of my best NASKA friends was a traditional blacksmith as well as a Buddhist monk. The world's a very big place, and it's full of all sorts of people. Why does this disturb you so greatly?

8/24/07

i can't believe you idiots haven't realized that she's trolling everyone

8/24/07
tonnyrat:

i can't believe you idiots haven't realized that she's trolling everyone

8/24/07

Those are useful skills, Aad. We could use you over here -- we have no decent bull detectors. Unfortunately, the more successful candidates here are the ones who know how to tell us what we want to hear. I just have a hard time looking at someone and saying, "He's bullshitting." Even when I know a guy's asking bullshit questions, I usually end up thinking he's legitimately curious. Then I have to stop myself and go, "Dude, that's the exact same line you were feeding interviewers six months ago."

I need to get to the point where I can respect a candidate for being able to feed me the right bullshit... without believing the bullshit.

8/24/07

Yeah, it's my biggest strength... socializing :-)

It's driving me nuts though. Even at my own firm I recently had a disccussion with a manager about the team's vision for me... which is getting more and more inclined to business development. Clients like me. The work horse associates like me... and my work gets done. But I don't want to do business development! Can't give a good explanation why, just that I don't. Makes me uncomfortable. In my past incarnations I got pigeonholed into sales but it's never been something I feel comfortable doing really. Whatever.

Anyways, I guess I'm trying to prove that I can be a hard ass bitch even though I'm not at all a hard ass bitch. Even when I give harsh criticism to associates (today) they generally like me. I think to myself, why aren't people afraid of me? Shouldn't someone at least be afraid of me? It's totally hilarious. I'm such a contrarian and I can't believe I'm even writing to complain about this stuff :-)

Back to the point at hand... calling BS takes experience for most professionals. You'll get better at it in time. I've always had the "gift of gab" as they say. It's intrinsic for me to be social, so I guess I've been privy to conversations or discussions that guarded, protected people wouldn't voluntarily have with others, which helps me tune into the BS psyche. Hope this makes sense!

8/24/07

...miss ind i love the stories, but i still think you make to much of yourself and to little of everyone else. Anyway my background is far from conventional as i attended 4 high schools due to repeat expulsions and took some time off from college to play blackjack professionally. I guess it dosent compare with skipping high school entirely to train with karate masters, but i think i would definitely characterize my life as "rich and varied". I am sure others who have followed more conventional paths also have had a good depth of experience. Anyway, even if your stories about karate, acting, fornicating, etc. are true it doesnt mean u arent just as full of shitt as anyone else who describes themselves as an "iconoclast" at age 26. I have always thought that karate masters were more self-deprecating but maybe that's just Yoda, Master Splinter, etc. I really can't picture Mr Miagi on a message board for college kids bragging about having a threesome. ...I guess sensei's just arent what they used to be...

8/24/07

I've got another few decades to go before mastery, Bondarb. Actually practicing my art would probably help.

Also, anyone who thinks that karate masters are sexually buttoned-up has never studied the life of one of the famous ones. Have you read Karate-Do: My Way of Life by Gichin Funakoshi, the guy who brought karate to Japan from Okinawa in the early 20th century? All of the old guys (the generation directly before Funakoshi-sensei) were constantly drunk and chasing women. Young martial artists raise a LOT of hell. They have done so for centuries at the very least. Trust me on that one if you won't read the literature.

And what's wrong with fornication? Fornication is a beautiful, wonderful thing that no one should live without. So what's wrong, dude? Do you find me unattractively predatory? Is it my gender that disturbs you? Ought I to act less like a man, be ashamed, virtuous, guilt-ridden? And on that note, why do you assume I'm a lesbian if I won't go out with you? I do have a fiance who would probably be very unhappy with me if I started going out with other men.

I'm sorry I make you uncomfortable, but I really can't be responsible for that. You may ignore me if it will increase your comfort level. In fact, I suggest that you do so. You and I are both clearly not college students, and we both have useful contributions to make to IBO. If you stop sniping at me, we can get about the business of doing that.

8/24/07

...u dont make me uncomfortable and i love fornication...ur gender doesnt disturb me at all quite to the contrary i wouldnt find you the least bit interesting if you werent a woman...

8/24/07

So, Bondarb, let's just agree that both women and men have a right to enjoy fornication in the same fashion. If I wasn't a woman, this wouldn't be an issue.

IBO monkeys seem to enjoy hearing about guys getting laid, but let a woman talk about bagging the same chicks in the same way and all of a sudden they're throwing stones. You boys are quite sensitive about these things, I infer. Sad that you don't comprehend that there are girls enough out there for all of us and that no one needs to get snitty about it.

... Hmm. Or maybe there aren't enough girls out there for all of us -- have you thought of that? Maybe there are only enough for me. I certainly have more would-be takers than I have time or inclination for, though they're not all to my taste. Maybe I AM taking all the chicks. If you're in the middle of a sexual dry spell and it's my fault, then you have every right to hate on me.

8/25/07
Mis Ind:

So, Bondarb, let's just agree that both women and men have a right to enjoy fornication in the same fashion. If I wasn't a woman, this wouldn't be an issue.

IBO monkeys seem to enjoy hearing about guys getting laid, but let a woman talk about bagging the same chicks in the same way and all of a sudden they're throwing stones. You boys are quite sensitive about these things, I infer. Sad that you don't comprehend that there are girls enough out there for all of us and that no one needs to get snitty about it.

... Hmm. Or maybe there aren't enough girls out there for all of us -- have you thought of that? Maybe there are only enough for me. I certainly have more would-be takers than I have time or inclination for, though they're not all to my taste. Maybe I AM taking all the chicks. If you're in the middle of a sexual dry spell and it's my fault, then you have every right to hate on me.

I hate listening to guys talk about getting laid. I like to talk with girls abou sex. I am not worried about you taking any girls from me. Its to bad for you about the dry spell although i thought you were engaged. Please dont respond to this with my name so i dont feel compelled to respond.

8/24/07

Oh boy, this conversation has deteriorated. Not that it started very high to begin with ... !

CompBanker

8/24/07

Some of these comments are disgusting.

So your husband to be won't allow you to sleep with other men, but threesomes and allowing you to have sex with other women is ok?

8/24/07

They can be disgusting to some people, but it's her lifestyle and it's how she chooses to live her personal life. If what Mis Ind is saying is true (no reason to doubt it), then you can easily see that she didn't have the "normal" life that we as Canadians or Americans have had, just like Mis Ind said. I'm sure that if we lived in somewhere like Niger, we wouldn't be the "normal" ones to them.

About sternfox's comment, there are people that do have swinging lifestyles; that really is no secret at all. Sex is to each their own... who knows, maybe Mis Ind is really into the swinging lifestyle with her fiance.

No such thing as "normal" I guess, even when it comes to someone's sex life.

8/25/07

My comment about the "disgusting" comments pertains to more to the raw shallowness that has been displayed by many comments so far by more than one individual rather than any individual comment.

It's not wholey focused on her sexual practice (which I find vile as well, but that's just my opinion). I'm not a jesus freak or remotely religious, but doing that with someone you are going to marry is, at least to me, a sign of a complete lack of self-respect and very degenerate.

8/25/07
sternfox:

It's not wholey focused on her sexual practice (which I find vile as well, but that's just my opinion). I'm not a jesus freak or remotely religious, but doing that with someone you are going to marry is, at least to me, a sign of a complete lack of self-respect and very degenerate.

Note how I mentioned that it's opinion in my original post.

When I used the word "savage" I didn't use it to describe gays. I used it in the vein of someone doing things without restraint or regard for the possible future consequences. Like a married couple constantly bringing other people in their sexual relationship, etc.

I find homosexuality repulsive, so now I am the iconoclast? Wow!

8/25/07

dude don't be so quick to judge, maybe her fiance insisted on the mA(c)nage A trois and she had to reluctantly oblige to save the marriage. ninja training only goes so far...

8/25/07

True. We shouldn't judge people's sex lives. Some people like SM for example. Would you consider a a wife and husband practising something like that to be lacking respect for themselves?

8/25/07

maybe they have too much respect, who knows? but anyway, if Mis Ind wants to engage in BDSM or whatever, that's her choice, and we should all respect her decision to do what makes her happy. everyone is different. gosh some people on this board are so insensitive

8/25/07

I really don't see a problem with any of it. Clearly, the US and Canada is not so far from their Protestant origins. To me, to some Europeans, to many Japanese, and to young hipsters pretty much anywhere, anything to do with one's sexuality is normal and natural, and one can be reasonably forthright about it under the right circumstances. After all, anything else would be hypocrisy for all but the most asexual human beings.

It's odd to understand that someone's judging me morally for that -- not aesthetically, but morally. It's as if someone made a moral judgement about the color of my blouse or my choice of music or the weather -- exactly how do morals apply? Among the set that I run with, we might take someone to task for vile sexual aesthetics, but vile sexual morals? That's a bit nineteenth-century. Do you people really not know anyone else who does this? I find it hard to believe that your experiences are really this narrow.

I always thought sex was one of the least unusual things about me, and here it is being harped on. This certainly is a very strange slice of society.

By the way -- oddly enough, there are fellow NASKA people on this board. Or at least one. If he would step forward, perhaps we could put to rest the idea that no one on this board could be a martial arts champion. There are plenty of unusual sorts here aside from me, but they tend to lurk.

8/25/07
Mis Ind:

It's odd to understand that someone's judging me morally for that -- not aesthetically, but morally. It's as if someone made a moral judgement about the color of my blouse or my choice of music or the weather -- exactly how do morals apply? Among the set that I run with, we might take someone to task for vile sexual aesthetics, but vile sexual morals? That's a bit nineteenth-century. Do you people really not know anyone else who does this? I find it hard to believe that your experiences are really this narrow.

As I said in my comment, it's only my opinion based on my personal values. I am allowed to have an opinion, right? Like my opposition against beastiality, for example...

Like if I see a gay/transgender/bi parade in new york, I would naturally find it extremely repulsive, right?

It's not being "narrow". It's to my opinion that going down certain paths is animalistic and inhuman. A shakey barrier is what seperates humanity from savagery.

8/25/07

Thanks for all the info Mis Ind, Sometimes I think you're one of the few people on these boards that posts intelligent and helpful information; it's just a shame that you get flamed so much but I almost guarantee that it has more to do with you being a female than the info. itself.

You're PWM job sounds way better than being a grunt at a BB IB I would probably have done the same thing in your situation.

8/25/07
StoneImmaculate:

Thanks for all the info Mis Ind, Sometimes I think you're one of the few people on these boards that posts intelligent and helpful information; it's just a shame that you get flamed so much but I almost guarantee that it has more to do with you being a female than the info. itself.

You're PWM job sounds way better than being a grunt at a BB IB I would probably have done the same thing in your situation.

No, she gets flamed because she gives off the vibe of being a shallow self-promoter, claiming to be nearly "superhuman" and other nonsense. Some of her off-topic posts hint at a lack of adult maturity.

For instance, I have experience with various firearms, speak another language fluent to a certain degree and played violin and high school sports competitively, but would never go as far as to claim that I am master of any of these trades. You're talking about a woman who, during undergraduate college and the past year spent most of her time sitting in front of a computer or studying all day.

I highly doubt ms ind is skilled at metalworks, leading platoons of karate people on the "battlefield", calligraphy, and other samurai/ninja crap that she claims.

When a 26 year old girl says she's "iconocast" because of a little karate competition, it hints on her disrespect of others and overblown self-image.

Anyway, this post came out a little condemning, I apologize.

8/27/07
sternfox:

I have experience with various firearms, speak another language fluent to a certain degree and played violin...

Firearms and violin? Fascinating interests. A little paradox.

stermfox:

Ironically, I'm probably the only person on this thread that has actually beaten two people half to death and gone to jail for it. The first guy I used a stool, the second guy still can't see well through his right eye until this day. He's been through surgery... Both situations were the result of self defense

Yikes. Some posters worry about DUIs in their background.

You guys are all over Mis Ind, yet seems to me there's purty good material here, yet no one has gone after it. Why?

(Not a frontal attack on Sternfox, simply trying to prove something.)

8/25/07

Ninjas live in the shadows.

8/25/07

i'm still laughing at an ex-banker claiming to be an iconoclast

8/25/07

sternfox, you're more than entitled to your opinion that gay pride parades are repulsive, just as others are entitled to their opinion that two girls should be able to get it on. The problem arises when you publically denounce these people because you are then forcing your personal values onto others.

Also, just a couple of side notes: I actually am of the belief that most people -don't- find homosexuality repulsive these days (at least not the younger generation). Additionally, I don't quite agree with the reference to gays as "savage." (In the uncivilized meaning of the term). And of course, to dispell conflicts of interest, I am not gay but I did willfully room with one in college.

CompBanker

8/25/07

Sternfox it is obvious that you are incredibly jealous, and the fact that MisInd is a woman, and bi-sexual no less obviously compounds your envy.

MI is probably the most interesting person on these boards, and it's quite obvious that people like you, Seanc and others are intimidated.

Also, keep your stone-age values to yourself no one cares about how repulsive you find homosexuality to be, this isn't the southern baptist convention forums so lets please refrain from talking morality here.

8/25/07

Jealous of threesomes and karate?

Eh, no thanks.

I have the right to express my opinion like everyone else. Some of these comments are much worse than mine. And I've been polite and many of my opinions are pretty much on the spot.

i'm an atheist.

8/25/07

mis ind, as a natural extension of your viewpoint, would you cast any negative moral judgment if you found out that one of the new analysts you hired at your PWM firm was having sex with a goat? not during work time of course, and just to make it easier, my question is gender neutral!

8/25/07

Comp, you'll be surprised by how many people hate homosexuals even in our generation.

8/25/07

The guy who won a National title with VYoung, while being a quant and landed in a Hedge Fund is way more impressive.

D1 College Ball > NAKSA

8/25/07
adehbone:

The guy who won a National title with VYoung, while being a quant and landed in a Hedge Fund is way more impressive.

D1 College Ball > NAKSA

Karate, kung fu, etc. are all overrated fighting styles anyway. When the sh!t hits the fan in a real fight, it's the fighter's size, strength, and rage that will matter the most. Along with using local tools (chairs, etc.)picked up along the way.

Most male karate fanatics are usually far less physically gifted (shorter, weaker) than men that do mainstream sports. They compete in tiny circuits that nobody knows about, cares, or barely follows.

I sparred with a friend a mine with gloves on, (guy's experienced at tae kwan do black belt xth degree) and I easily pummelled his ass with no martial arts training. He's 5'5, 140 pounds and I'm 6'2.5, 220....

Martial arts training will give you an advantage if you are around the same size than your opponent, but against much larger and stronger men its of virtually no use.

8/25/07
sternfox:

Karate, kung fu, etc. are all overrated fighting styles anyway. When the sh!t hits the fan in a real fight, it's the fighter's size, strength, and rage that will matter the most. Along with using local tools (chairs, etc.)picked up along the way.

Most male karate fanatics are usually far less physically gifted (shorter, weaker) than men that do mainstream sports. They compete in tiny circuits that nobody knows about, cares, or barely follows.

I sparred with a friend a mine with gloves on, (guy's experienced at tae kwan do black belt xth degree) and I easily pummelled his ass with no martial arts training. He's 5'5, 140 pounds and I'm 6'2.5, 220....

Martial arts training will give you an advantage if you are around the same size than your opponent, but against much larger and stronger men its of virtually no use.

If a gay guy/girl did karate that was the same size as you, would that tip the balance? Or would you use your rage against his/her savagery along with a 'local tool' (what a pleasantly ironic image) to combat that competitive advantage?

I used to work behind a bar at a club and all the bouncers used to do was talk shit about how they could kick everyones ass. It was lame then, more so now.

8/26/07
beaker:
sternfox:

Karate, kung fu, etc. are all overrated fighting styles anyway. When the sh!t hits the fan in a real fight, it's the fighter's size, strength, and rage that will matter the most. Along with using local tools (chairs, etc.)picked up along the way.

Most male karate fanatics are usually far less physically gifted (shorter, weaker) than men that do mainstream sports. They compete in tiny circuits that nobody knows about, cares, or barely follows.

I sparred with a friend a mine with gloves on, (guy's experienced at tae kwan do black belt xth degree) and I easily pummelled his ass with no martial arts training. He's 5'5, 140 pounds and I'm 6'2.5, 220....

Martial arts training will give you an advantage if you are around the same size than your opponent, but against much larger and stronger men its of virtually no use.

If a gay guy/girl did karate that was the same size as you, would that tip the balance? Or would you use your rage against his/her savagery along with a 'local tool' (what a pleasantly ironic image) to combat that competitive advantage?

I used to work behind a bar at a club and all the bouncers used to do was talk shit about how they could kick everyones ass. It was lame then, more so now.

I'm not blowing horns or anything. But when most confrontations have the objective of neutralizing the opponent, not going as far as killing them, then obviously the very well trained equal size man would have an advantage. I highly doubt a "litte miagi" would have the reach or even the strength to even parry a much larger opponent.

Ironically, I'm probably the only person on this thread that has actually beaten two people half to death and gone to jail for it. The first guy I used a stool, the second guy still can't see well through his right eye until this day. He's been through surgery. Both men were only slightly smaller than me.

Both situations were the result of self defense. Training with karate weapons has virtually no practical use as no one actually carries this junk on a daily basis. Or gets into fights..

In any event, most real fights start when the enraged party attacks the other party suddenly and without warning, usually from behind.

8/27/07

errr...sternfox....Tae'Kwon Do black belts don't really mean anything other than the fact that the guy is good at performing snappy kicks in a very dumbed-down ring environment.

Tae Kwan Do is arguably the most washed-down Asian fighting form in existence right now, and karate and kung-fu follow close behind bc of the fact that they're too popular and commercialized.

Only a few schools still emphasize the traditional hard-core methods of conditioning and training, and bc of this emphasis they usually aren't as popular.

Now if you told me you'd sparred a pro Muay Thai fighter or advanced Brazilian jiujitsu fighter and won, then I'd be impressed.

As for martial arts not mattering compared to size and strength, that's hogwash. Look at boxing with Sugar Ray Robinson or Mike Tyson. Both of them were much smaller than most of the opponents they fought, yet they were able to win bc of their skill and technique.

8/25/07

Snazzy, as long as the goat was happy and wasn't hurt, why would I make a moral judgement? I can (and would) make an aesthetic judgement about the quality of the person's taste, but I'd probably keep it to myself. Sex is a strange beast -- the more you try to push it down and master it, the more it pops out into areas of your life you can't control. Look at Catholic priests for an extreme example.

8/25/07

Mis Ind,
I graduated from a small liberal arts school in South Carolina with a BS in biology. I decided to come to NYC and pursue and career in finance and had my goals set on a structured analyst program at an IB.

I had a 3.5 GPA and knew I needed some experience before applying. I took it upon myself to network my way into an internship at a hedgefund. Also I took a financial modeling class in order to become more marketable.

I was wondering if it would be possible for banks to look at me during the normal college recruiting cycle even though I have graduated.

Any advice you might give would be great. Thanks.

8/25/07

It can be difficult to get onto a bank's schedule in that way after graduation. Best advice: go to Glocap, Career Group, SearchOne and every other big NYC recruiter you can find. They may be your best way in, and at this point you may have to accept a mid-year start date (along with all the issues that brings, including lack of training and a shortchanged bonus).

8/25/07

What are other recruitors in nyc other than those three?

8/26/07

Yeah. I see no reason, on an online forum, to get testosterone-laden about how we would all fare against each other in the ring. I've spent significantly more than a decade dealing with those sorts of people. Nobody ever gets in the ring or throws a punch or attempts a hold, so there's no real point in it.

However, a note that I believe may be germane to this conversation: not only would almost any martial artist feel comfortable using a "local tool", they are likely to have years of heavy training in it. Anyone who's trained escrima or jo for a decade or so would devastate someone picking up a stick-like object (broom, crowbar, candlestick) for the first time.

One of my old friends on the NASKA circuit (Grandmaster Manuel Agrella, who signed one of my black belt certificates and mentored me for years; check him out on Wikipedia) used to delight in showing people a certain trick. He'd slip a credit card out of his wallet, face off against a wooden post, and strike with the credit card, leaving a quarter-inch-deep gash in the wood. He knew how to sharpen the plastic just-so, and how to bend the card slightly to get strength along the bellied edge. It could easily open someone's throat or slash across someone's eyes. I'd bet on the seventy-year-old guy with the credit card over a twentysomething with a chair any day.

Martial arts isn't just punching and kicking. It evolves. It's in the mind and in how you see the world. Everything is a matter of leverage; all physical situations are cold. Emotional and cognitive issues regarding violence are removed. And if you think we don't spend years being trained in how to handle chairs, knives, guns, ropes, chains, sticks... well, you haven't spent much time in a dojo, or you've been in the wrong one.

Sadly, there are a lot of dojo and dojang that are well-known for being black belt mills. Being able to say you have a black belt is next to worthless. I see yellow belts that can wipe the floor with black belts. Most good martial artists don't even ask each other what their rank is. It's the other areas of your art and your life that will show your worth as an artist.

8/26/07
Mis Ind:

Yeah. I see no reason, on an online forum, to get testosterone-laden about how we would all fare against each other in the ring.

I think you have more testosterone than anyone else here

_______________________________________
http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/

8/26/07

...

8/26/07

I'm not the one talking about how good I am at beating people up, my friend. The arts that I studied were all focused on self-improvement (-do styles) rather than beating the crap out of people (jutsu styles).

8/26/07

Why does everyone care about resumes? I know plenty of analysts at top tier banks with crappy grades/resumes.

Instead of worrying about resumes, go networking (sucking&licking)with bankers and make them like you, then you will get in even with a 2.0 GPA and no internships.

8/26/07

Student22, I think that's shortsighted. Everyone here seems to know "plenty of analysts at top tier banks" who just so happen to provide evidence for their sketchy point. No matter how much a banker likes you, they can't get you through the hiring process with a 2.0 GPA and no internships.

8/26/07

Miss Ind,

Assuming you are part of class 2006 IBD at a BB. What % of your class already left (IBD)at your former BB bank?

8/27/07

I'm not bragging or anything, LOL. I 'm almost 10 inches taller and 80 pounds over him......

As for tyson, his main opponents were either 0-5 inches taller at most and not that much heavier/lighter than him. They were all in the same weight class.

8/27/07

sorry if I came off that way. I just meant to point out that Tae Kwon Do is extremely unrepresentative of how martial arts actually affect fighting capabilities.

I'll grant you that most of Tyson's opponents were around the same weight as him. But his fighting style when he was young was extremely optimized for fighting taller & larger fighters. The peek-a-boo was less and less effective for avoiding hits the shorter(and smaller usually) the fighter.

8/27/07

I didn't want to hate on Tae Kwon Do specifically, but I agree entirely with Warhawk. When I hear "Tae Kwon Do black belt", unless it's from one of a very few schools that I respect, I tend to dismiss the person out of hand. It's not the Japanese/Korean thing -- there are a number of other Korean hand-to-hand arts that are quite beautiful and brutal -- it's just that Tae Kwon Do in America is by far and large a joke. I'm sorry that anyone is forming false opinions of the martial arts in general based on talking to or sparring with Tae Kwon Do "black belts". You do know that many of the schools guarantee you a black belt if you stay there for three years, right?

8/27/07

Student22, I'd say only about 7-8% as of the time I left, which was fairly early in the window for such things. We are just now approaching the end of quitting season, I'd say, since you could still probably earn a full-year's bonus at your next place if they're on the same schedule. Thus, it could easily be 15% or more by now.

8/27/07
Mis Ind:

Student22, I'd say only about 7-8% as of the time I left, which was fairly early in the window for such things. We are just now approaching the end of quitting season, I'd say, since you could still probably earn a full-year's bonus at your next place if they're on the same schedule. Thus, it could easily be 15% or more by now.

I am almost positive I know you you are! If Mis Ind is who I think she is, she is definitely telling the truth about her background.

8/27/07

Wow that's huge but makes sense.. my friends told that in some teams in IBD at top tier firms they started with 10 analysts in summer 2006 , toaday there are only 2 left..

8/27/07

It's not tough. There is only one female Vespa-riding loudmouthed engaged 26-year-old martial artist analyst in the NYC bulge bracket IBD class of 2006. If you're a current analyst in this group of people, chances are you at least know someone who knows someone who knew me when I was in the city. Hell, we all room together and drink together; I'm surprised that nobody's posted my name and cell phone number all over the site by now. (Though I'd appreciate it if nobody did. Thanks.)

So, altfp, you're at my old bank?

8/27/07
Mis Ind:

It's not tough. There is only one female Vespa-riding loudmouthed engaged 26-year-old martial artist analyst in the NYC bulge bracket IBD class of 2006. If you're a current analyst in this group of people, chances are you at least know someone who knows someone who knew me when I was in the city. Hell, we all room together and drink together; I'm surprised that nobody's posted my name and cell phone number all over the site by now. (Though I'd appreciate it if nobody did. Thanks.)

So, altfp, you're at my old bank?

Yes, but I promise I won't post your cell :)

8/27/07

Thanks -- good to know. Were you in my group, or just my bank? Maybe you're a better person to discuss the percentage of people who've left from the year of '06.

Anyway, at least this puts a portion of the controversy to rest... or at least, it should. I get the feeling that even if there were people on here who knew me from NASKA, from my bank, from my old clubbing scene, from my old academic journal, AND from my medieval arts interest group, people would still call me a liar about my own life. I could probably invite everyone to my house and have a proof party, and then they'd just switch to making fun of and attempting to invalidate each individual aspect... all while talking trash about how they could kick my ass, but not being willing to step into the ring.

Heh. College kids have so much time on their hands. God, I miss those days.

8/27/07

I would not be surprised if altfp is a screenname created by Mis Ind (given that she is so concerned with having people believe her).

Additionally, Mis Ind, if you wish you had more time on your hands, maybe you should ease up on your ibankingoasis.com postings - that would probably save you 1.5 hours per day.

8/27/07

As usual, I only post when there's time at work to do so. Some people spend their spare time on ESPN; I like CNN and IBO. You're right -- it's half an hour per ten-hour day, but that's certainly no more than most people spend on their personal stuff during work. What I really wish is that I was in the same position that these college kids are -- less than 55 hours a week of serious stuff to get done. It would be nice.

I seriously doubt I'd be able to prove that I'm not altfp, and I also doubt that he/she cares to get into that mess. If you seriously care that much, I'm sure you'll dig up old posts and figure out the different inflections and grammatical patterns... but then the point could be made that since I can write, I know how to fake all of that. The attacks are going to be ceaseless. That's fine.

However, I don't see why I would want to prove that, of all things. I already proved I was a banker -- check back through my posts and find the one with the link to the photo. I don't even see why it was an issue, however -- this is a site for banking analysts. I was a banking analyst. QED.

I'm not lying here on IBO and don't need to lie to prove that I'm not lying. But if I was, wouldn't I be trying to prove that I'm a good martial artist, instead of a boring banker? Your point just doesn't hold up, at least not to me.

8/27/07

Can you please explain why my post doesn't hold up in more detail? I'm not sure I follow any of your arguments, actually.

For example, I'm not sure what you mean when you say " --this is a site for banking analysts. I was a banking analyst. QED." What? Do you know what QED means? You did not show anything in that paragraph -just because this is a site for banking analysts and you are posting on this site does not mean you are a banking analyst. Please clarify if you can.

Also, I don't understand you when you say, "But if I was, wouldn't I be trying to prove that I'm a good martial artist, instead of a boring banker?" You have spent a lot of time trying to prove that you are a good martial artist - if I recall, you posted pictures of some dagger or sword at one point. I would actually argue that you have spent a TON of time trying to prove that you are not some boring banker, but rather a really unique, different banker who is good at martial arts. Would again love some clarification here.

8/27/07

My two cents... it's easier on your collective psyches to believe that Mis Ind is lying because it make you guys feel better about the reality of your mediocre existence.

If she were lying, then my hat off to her!! She has a craftier mind than Lex Luther :-)

BTW, I agree with Mis Ind, in that IBO is one of the few sites I can access while at the office, shoot the breeze and take my mind off work/life. I type 100+ wpm so posting on the forum isn't time consumming. Now as far as Mis Ind morphing herself into the alias "altfp"... Plueeeze. If that were the case, she would have come up with a much more creative name than that! Lame.

8/27/07
aadpepsi:

Now as far as Mis Ind morphing herself into the alias "altfp"... Plueeeze. If that were the case, she would have come up with a much more creative name than that! Lame.

Wouldn't Mis Ind's goal in choosing a secondary screenname be to disguise the fact that she was the one who created it? How does it make any sense to say, "She can't be the one who created that screenname - she would have chosen something different!"?

8/27/07

I don't think Ms Ind is lying about anything, but it's obvious that she exaggerates here and there.

8/27/07

hahahaha, I am not Mis Ind. Given how much she posts, I am sure she only posts under one name.

I am honestly surprised given all the personal details she has given that I am the only person who knows who she is. Maybe everyone on here is a college student?

8/27/07

I think so, altfp. First off, most of the people slinging mud have very questionable credentials or are definitely college kids. The ones that sling mud but have credentials seem to not be bankers -- they are other types.

As you say, any of the 100 or so analysts I trained/worked with at my old bank would recognize me instantly, as would anyone who went to school with me. I'm very different. My anonymity here is solely to prevent people who don't actually know me from bothering me when I don't want to be bothered.

8/27/07

I agree, Aad. We all have unusual bits and pieces in our backgrounds, which we may bring out from time to time to assist in making points that are germane to the conversation. There's other great material here besides mine. I don't see why my life is so heavily attacked, particularly when people continue to back me up. I'm starting to think you're right -- it's some weird gender thing that exists in the minds of these kids.

8/27/07
Mis Ind:

I agree, Aad. We all have unusual bits and pieces in our backgrounds, which we may bring out from time to time to assist in making points that are germane to the conversation. There's other great material here besides mine. I don't see why my life is so heavily attacked, particularly when people continue to back me up. I'm starting to think you're right -- it's some weird gender thing that exists in the minds of these kids.

I'm telling you, my theory holds firm. Years of confirmation. I always wish I'm proven wrong but alas the theory is firm. It's not just with the kids either. It's true in general.

8/27/07
Mis Ind:

I agree, Aad. We all have unusual bits and pieces in our backgrounds, which we may bring out from time to time to assist in making points that are germane to the conversation. There's other great material here besides mine. I don't see why my life is so heavily attacked, particularly when people continue to back me up. I'm starting to think you're right -- it's some weird gender thing that exists in the minds of these kids.

It has nothing to do with your gender at all. It's the fact that you claim to be an expert in so many strange things and having "superhuman" achievements. The comment of turning into a japanese woman, the old man who can make a pezz dispenzer out of a guy's throat with a credit card, leading 40 karate soldiers, expert of metal works, being a true martial artist, etc.

I mean, if a white guy said this I'll just laugh at his face...

In any event, I believe that you've been exposed to the things you claim, but I highly doubt that you are an expert in any if some of them.

Eh, I'm being mean again...:(

8/27/07

Test. This is me.

8/27/07

Test. This is me too.

8/27/07

Heh. Well, I usually have a better opinion of the general male population. As an adult I've never dated anyone under 26, and even he was a major exception. Every man I've ever been close to, old or young, online or in the real world, has given me his utmost respect in terms of accomplishments and career. Thus I always assume men will respect me more than women, and in this case I'm clearly wrong. Perhaps I just had a good run of men for the last ten-twelve years.

I know I've been resisting the truth of your opinions, Aad, but this site has now gone very far to reverse my natural love for the male gender. Now I'm wondering if they're all like this underneath their outer veneer of maturity, self-respect, and intellect. Or are the guys on this site just the sorts that I would never run into in my day-to-day life?

8/27/07

I love men. I do. There are fabulous men out there. They have their utility :-)

Likelihood is that the profile of the guys on the forum aren't typical of what you run into in day-to-day life. In day-to-day life you would be selective on who you surround yourself with. However, I think this forum is a petri dish of dudes shifting from puberty to manhood.

I'm being a shit. Sorry folks. LOL.

8/27/07

Dude. You're just exaggerating. I never said I was superhuman, never said I turned into a Japanese woman (just said I knew how to mimic Japanese mannerisms), never said the guys I led on the field were trained in karate (they were actually SCA heavy-weapons fighters -- yes, total geeks, but geeks with eighty pounds of armor and weapons), never said I was an expert of metal work (just said I knew how to do it. Anyone who's done heavy-weapons SCA combat will have at least some metalworking experience, and on top of that, I liked to date armorers for a few years back in my late teens. Nothing says lovin' like breaking out the old dishing stump and the table shear that cuts through 18-gauge).

If you really want to verify the credit card story, go find Grandmaster Manuel Agrella (in the Baltimore or Washington DC area). He's a celebrity; he's not hard to find if you Google around or call someone at NASKA, and he loves fame so he'll talk to you if you claim to be either an admirer or a reporter. Ask him if the credit card story is true. While you're talking to him, you might as well tell him that the sixteen-year-old female iaidoka from Atlanta that he mentored back in the mid- to late-90's and whose black belt certificate he signed sends him her greetings. Then you can feel free to have him tell you my name. I highly suggest you do this; it should clear up these problems you're having with me. If you don't, then stop posting exaggerations (and rank untruths) about my life. Thanks much.

8/27/07
Mis Ind:

go find Grandmaster Manuel Agrella (in the Baltimore or Washington DC area)...

Mis Ind, now why do this? Why feed these kids such info and then encourage them to call and pester this Agrella guy? Someone on here who is a total loon will surely do it. Before you know it, an old video of you will be resurrected here and on YouTube... why sacrifice your privacy?

8/27/07

maybe everyone that has posted in this thread is the same exact person, with dozens of usernames, just talking to themselves. except for me, since i've managed to break out of the IBO Matrix...

8/27/07

I really don't give a shit about Ind, I just don't like her boasting and the essays she posts on here describing her shitty experiences.

Nothing you've done is extraordinary Ind. If you were an Ironman Triathelete then I would tip my hat to you, but these bs martial arts credentials don't mean a thing.

It doesn't impress me one bit and I think you should stop before I'm forced to come down to Cali to whoop that ass.

8/27/07

Pepsi, let her dig her own grave....I want her to be fired and humbled....muahahahahahahahha

8/27/07

Ahem, some of us take offense!

CompBanker

8/27/07

Seanc, you've always had an invite to come down -- an invite which I first issued around six months ago, in case you don't recall. As I said before, I'm willing to risk the jail and the lawsuit -- not that I think you're planning to press charges, but things have a way of going sour ex post facto, you know? I'm still waiting on you to PM me, in fact. I've been waiting for six months. You PM me, I'll give you a date, time, and location, and we'll agree on rules (if any). If it's the travel costs keeping you away, we'll work something out. I would hate to see money get in the way of a friendly pursuit of the truth, wouldn't you?

8/27/07

I'm so totally inviting myself in on this... Seanc heads to Cali and since I'm in Cali too, I'll make an appearance to referee and keep it real :-)

8/27/07
aadpepsi:

I'm so totally inviting myself in on this... Seanc heads to Cali and since I'm in Cali too, I'll make an appearance to referee and keep it real :-)

I thought you were in Chicago ?

8/27/07

It's not money, I'm made of money, it's time and motivation.

I want this to be a no holds-barred bare-knuckled fight to the death, no sparring or any of that shit. Maybe Pepsi can referee or something. Agreed ?

8/27/07

Aad, sad to say, but Grandmaster Agrella is mostly ignored by the world these days. His heyday was back when Bruce Lee wasn't yet in America and Chuck Norris was still a kid. Like any seventy-something year old guy, he's lonely. He would absolutely relish the chance to talk to some young punk about his credit card thing... and jaw somebody's ear off into the bargain. Also, anyone who was rude to him would be treated appropriately. Finally, he has just enough information about me without being able to say anything I wouldn't want said... thus, a perfect source. I know it's unlikely that anyone would call him, but I think he'd get a kick out of it if somebody did. Thus, I highly recommend that you do it if you want to continue attacking my life.

I'd actually love to see an old video of myself on YouTube, if only because I don't have any of myself anymore and my fiance has never even seen what I do. If I don't find a video, then my kids will never see it either. Would be nice.

8/27/07

Death? You're an infant. I do not have the resources to hide a body (at least, not here), nor is it morally appropriate for either one of us to take a life in this situation.

However, I'm not concerned about my own life in this fight. YOU may fight to the death; i.e., you may attempt to do whatever you like, using anything at your disposal except weapons you haven't declared. I will fight according to my own rules, which will preserve your life at the very least. Deal?

8/27/07

The loser dies, that's it. If you're too pussy to play by my rules then it's not gonna happen.

8/27/07

LOL. Well alright then, let's hope some punk steps up to the challenge and reaches out to Agrella and then an old video of you is resurrected so that your kids can be proud that momma kicked ass!

As far as the other outstanding matter - I will absolutely referee - to boot, I will take the surviving party to Santana Row for a steak dinner at Left Bank.

Yes, Seanc, I'm now in Cali. It's where the smart people go after NYC or Chicago :-)

Ok, so let's finalize this... date?

8/27/07

mis ind will transform into a japanese woman and seduce you with mongoloid mannerisms and facial expressions.

"Me soo horny, mee luv u long time *winkwink"....

8/27/07

Mis Ind and Seanc, I have a dinner date so I must go. However, I henceforth make myself available at your beckon call to referee. Just one of you shoot me a PM with the decided date/time... :-)

8/27/07

This is ridiculous, you guys should battle it out over a game of Dance-Dance revolution.

CompBanker

8/27/07

Ah, I see. That's truly infantile. If I agree to your condition, then you can call me a crazy murderer and not follow through with your threat. If I don't, then you can call me a pussy and not follow through with your threat. I say you should follow through with your threat and let the outcome be the outcome. However, I think it's pretty clear that it's your intention to not fight me. If it was, you'd have answered my first invitation. I would hardly be a good student of one of the schools that Musashi spawned if I didn't put myself forward to stand against all comers, now would I? (Note, please, that Musashi frequently used a wooden sword in shinken shobu (fights to the death), and sent his opponents away humbled but alive.)

My invitation still stands: no rules, and you may attempt to kill me if that's how you get your jollies, but I can't promise that you'll die if you lose. That would be taking advantage of you and damaging myself.

8/27/07

At any rate, Seanc, we now have a referee. Next weekend okay for you? This weekend? I can get us a safe place where we won't be interrupted, and I'll take you out drinking afterwards if I'm still alive.

8/27/07

Lol, the nerve of this woman. I'm 6'1, 200 + lbs. I bench 275. About 10% BF, I wrestled in High school and box regularly.

You really think you have a chance to survive even a minute with me ?? I could probably take out both you and that midget bf of yours if both of you came to me with chainsaws. You really are delusional.

8/27/07

Seanc and Mis Ind are the same person.

I'm still laughing at the resources to hide a body line. That's gold!

8/27/07

Seanc, instead of making more threats, shall we find out? I'm waiting for you to respond: this weekend or next? I'm ready and waiting. Have been for half a year now.

8/27/07

I started work about a month ago, unlike you, I have a real job. I can't just jet off to Cali any weekend I want to. I'll pm you when I have the time to fly down....

8/27/07

Riiight. You throw up quite a few barriers to fulfilling your threat, my friend. It's too bad that you're too busy to fly out and destroy my tiny, defenseless body with your bare knuckles.

Until such (nonexistent) time as you PM me to come down, you really don't have much space to continue making baseless threats. I am waiting and have been for some time. Aadpepsi is now waiting as well. You've just shown yourself to be unwilling to back up the trash you're talking, but nevertheless I'll show you the respect due any opponent. Remember this next time you threaten me: any day, any time; I'm ready. That's not meant to be a specific statement to you: it's a part of me. I'm always ready.

Now, like Aad, I have dinner reservations. Enjoy your evening, my friend.

8/27/07

What is this waiting you speak of ? If you were so anxious to get your ass whooped then you should have pmed me during the past 4 months when you and I both were in NYC.

I think you should remember this the next time you feel the need to regale us with your adventures : nobody believes you.

8/28/07
Mis Ind:

Candidate 6: Fanatic video gamer (mainly console).
There is a short list of things that you should never put on a resume, no matter how true they are. Smoking marijuana is one. Drinking to blackout is another. Fanatic video gaming is in the same group. Like many scions of the '80's, I am a huge video game fan and have wasted too much of my life on video games -- from Final Fantasy I in 1990 to Street Fighter II in 1993 to World of Warcraft and Civ 4 and Guitar Hero II now. Does that mean I have sympathy for somebody who feels that this belongs on his resume? Absolutely not. That's something you can bring up on the third round of drinks during a social event when there are no seniors around to hear, but not on your resume.

Is it really that bad? I saw some Wharton resumes with "videogames" listed as an "interest".

8/28/07

Not all Wharton resumes are as good as they should be. I say this, sadly, from recent experience.

8/28/07

Hmm.. Noted. Thanks =)

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