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6/28/12

Since I'm now recruiting for a boutique wealth management firm rather than a bulge bracket investment bank, I'm seeing a whole new type of resumes. Some of them are quite funny, and you all know me -- I love to share.

Since people in the past have been upset by my posting humorous responses to the drek I read in resumes, I considered just posting the drek this time and omitting the humor. However, it just didn't seem as useful. The point is that this stuff doesn't sound that funny until you're a recruiter looking at your fortieth resume of the day -- and in order to submit a good resume, you need to understand your recruiter's point of view. Here we go.

Candidate 1: High school GPA: 3.52. [Not very tough college] GPA: 2.96.
Great, dude. Clearly, you had a lot more fun in college than you had in high school. It's understandable; your school is known for partying. But if you're trying to prove that you have the potential for a 3.52, then you'd also have to answer to why that potential went down the tubes during college and why you're still a top-quality candidate. Sadly, I don't have the time or inclination to ask that question. Next.

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

Candidate 3: First place, poetry.com Poem Contest.
Hmm -- isn't that the contest that's famous for awarding first place to everyone who enters? Did you shell out the $65 for the heirloom-quality coffee table book containing your poem, the $575 to accept your award at the quarterly conference, and the $169 for the elegant silver-tone trophy cup too? If so, I would like to honor your ground-breaking work in poetry as well. Please PM me for the name and address where you should send your check. Next.

Candidate 4: Diablo 2 -- Self-Run Online Business.
This is exactly the kind of entrepreneurial self-starter we want in our firm. Next.

Candidate 5: "This seems to be an ideal position that will enable me to contribute to your company by utilizing my current skills and experience. I am eager and enthused to be given the opportunity to contribute my diligence and hard work ethic to your company.... My work experience has taught me to work independently as well as exemplifying team work by taking initiative in other aspects of departmental obligations such as administrative support."
My friend, you probably thought that exhausting the thesaurus would make you sound intelligent. Unfortunately, all it did was make you sound like a tool. Also, it doesn't hide the fact that your grammar is disappointing. Next.

Candidate 6: Fanatic video gamer (mainly console).
There is a short list of things that you should never put on a resume, no matter how true they are. Smoking marijuana is one. Drinking to blackout is another. Fanatic video gaming is in the same group. Like many scions of the '80's, I am a huge video game fan and have wasted too much of my life on video games -- from Final Fantasy I in 1990 to Street Fighter II in 1993 to World of Warcraft and Civ 4 and Guitar Hero II now. Does that mean I have sympathy for somebody who feels that this belongs on his resume? Absolutely not. That's something you can bring up on the third round of drinks during a social event when there are no seniors around to hear, but not on your resume.

Comments (245)

8/22/07

haha hilarious, I assume your new job is treating you much better than the last one?

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8/22/07
In reply to imkeen
8/22/07
8/22/07

Hah, as you tumble down the prestige ladder it becomes more comical that you mock other people

8/22/07
Mis Ind:

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

This gets to me everytime. Are you saying that your company is above the sort of candidate who has put in his/her time at fast food and retail? If this was his only work experience I can understand you having a laugh at it, but if you ding him for simply putting on his resume, thats kinda sad.

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

*Here ends the public service announcement*

8/22/07

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

Lol when did people start holding PWM internships in high regard?

8/22/07

im not sure if it's the case here, but it's really deplorable to reject an (otherwise strong) applicant just because he/she worked in a fast-food restaurant.

In reply to Schumacher
8/22/07
Schumacher:
Mis Ind:

Candidate 2: Summers 2001-2006: Burger Patch Restaurant, Sales Associate.
You know what they say -- if your summer group keeps asking you back, it shows that you are hardworking and likable. Next.

This gets to me everytime. Are you saying that your company is above the sort of candidate who has put in his/her time at fast food and retail? If this was his only work experience I can understand you having a laugh at it, but if you ding him for simply putting on his resume, thats kinda sad.

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

*Here ends the public service announcement*

DOCH

8/22/07

Nope. We've all worked retail or fast food, I'm sure... but the difference between a good candidate and a bad candidate is that the good candidate has better things to use their valuable resume space on than Burger Patch. What that candidate was actually saying was, "I have nothing better to say about myself than that I worked at Burger Patch for five summers." No internships. No summer volunteer work. The guy's twenty-two and he's going back home to work at Burger Patch in the summer just like he did in high school. That just doesn't look good on a resume.

By the time you graduate college, you should not have to write about flipping burgers just to fill up your one page. Especially not if you did it for five years. That tells me that the guy is not particularly focused on being a good candidate for my industry.

8/22/07

I didn't realize right away that was for an FT position...I would hope that one wouldn't look as down on a frosh or soph who puts that on their resume (and no, I don't work in the service/fast food industry)?

8/22/07

"im not sure if it's the case here, but it's really deplorable to reject an (otherwise strong) applicant just because he/she worked in a fast-food restaurant."

It would have killed the joke to explain it in my initial post, but just so you don't feel too sorry for the guy:

He didn't put his GPA on his resume. Or his SATs. Or any other number. I need at least something along those lines. If you don't include any of this, I have to assume that your numbers were bad.
His work history wasn't in chronological order.
His other work experience involved being an office assistant for four years -- essentially a secretary. In an unrelated industry.
He didn't include a cover letter when I specifically requested it.

In other words, I dinged him because he wasn't qualified. However, you could definitely draw a strong correlation between flipping burgers for five years and not being qualified. While flipping burgers every summer doesn't mean you're stupid, it does mean that you're not out there doing comps or DCFs or asset allocations or pitchbooks during your summers. And that hurts you in this field.

8/22/07

Are these for summer interns, or full time people?

8/22/07

"I didn't realize right away that was for an FT position...I would hope that one wouldn't look as down on a frosh or soph who puts that on their resume (and no, I don't work in the service/fast food industry)?"

Hell no... if I was looking at frosh or soph resumes, I wouldn't ding them for fast food. When you're under twenty, you take what you can get. I like to see people who are at least working hard and earning money in their late teens.

However, and this is true for the entire finance industry, your resume needs to start demonstrating some finance knowledge and experience by your senior year at the latest. There is a significant difference between flipping burgers at nineteen and flipping burgers at twenty-two. The former says you're young and you need cash. The latter says you either failed or never tried to get a real job or an internship. Big difference.

8/22/07

Walter, this is for full-time analysts. Most of the people I'm looking at have already graduated; a few will be graduating in December or May.

In reply to Devils Advocate
8/22/07
Devils Advocate:

Why sneer at someone who has real job experience? Not EVERYONE has the resources to get a PWM internship at Merrill their freshman year in college.

Lol when did people start holding PWM internships in high regard?

What other legit finance internships can you get as freshmen?

And will someone explain to me what DOCH is? :P

8/22/07

True enough -- finance internships are by far the easiest way into finance if you're a freshman or sophomore. I worked in wealth management at Wachovia, at a boutique, and at Goldman before I went into IB.

To Schumacher: I don't want to dive too deep into discussing my current firm (as usual), but it's an interesting situation. I actually hate wealth management and would never have considered it except at this one specific firm which is quite different. The specific things that make my firm more selective:

1: We don't market or sell anything. We have a waiting list of clients who've heard of us through word-of-mouth. We turn away clients because we're too small to handle them the way we want to. This is in stark contrast to your average wealth management firm that is only trying to increase AUM.

2: Our clients are in the $400 million and up range -- these are individuals the size of companies. That means each associate handles only 8-10 clients, and that the work is extremely complex. Part of what we do for them is buy and sell companies, hotels, jets, yachts, vineyards, newspapers, and so forth. We need people who can not only tear through a DCF in two hours, but who can also become private jet experts in ten days, create presentations for venture capitalists, and value a private company with no product and no revenues. In contrast, the average wealth management analyst just does rebalancings and allocations, with maybe a little concentrated-equity or derivatives work.

3: Our clients are primarily Hollywood, Napa, or Silicon Valley types. Each has specific needs that go far beyond traditional finance.

4: We are a tiny family-style office. Every single person we hire has to be approved by every single employee (in the true crazy California management style). If I see a candidate that I like, if I know that another particular person won't like him, I know not to bother.

Also, we have no HR department -- it's just me and a senior guy, slogging through hundreds of candidates. We are on auto-ding unless the candidate has something very special.

8/22/07
8/22/07

Let me guess...something special = a 3.5+ from Ivy and previous BB experience?

Yawn.

Eh, sorry I'm cynical tonight. I'll stop raining on the parade.

8/22/07

The White trash in you is showing Ind.

8/22/07

Yes, Seanc. One wouldn't try to conceal it -- futile, you know. Why, just last night as I sat down to my evening cornbread and collard greens with my fiance, I said, "Boy howdy, ain't I glad I up and came out west where I ain't had to p'tend I wadn't from the South no more." By the way, if you're ever in Atlanta, I hear my grandma gives excellent handjobs for twenty bucks. She's trying to keep my uncle's Camaro from getting repo'd. So help a sister out, all right? After all, we po but we proud.

Schumacher, not so much -- I am very bullish on ex-BB investment bankers with high GPAs, but the senior guy is somewhat less so. When we come to a consensus, it's usually about someone with an unusual story -- a guy from Wharton with a 3.2 who's from here originally and who's miserable at his BB PWM job in New Jersey, or a girl who did BB Lev Fin and hated it, or a girl who did boutique IB in LA and couldn't put up with the cultural fakeness in both the town and the industry. Most people who come here from the bulge brackets are the mavericks -- the people who couldn't or didn't drink the Kool-Aid. I think that's probably a better criteria for those who are coming to us from bulge brackets.

8/22/07

Ms. Ind, I have a question for you about your hiring process.

I'm a rising senior at Wharton major finance/acc. and I have had only one finance internship (equity analyst in equity research) for four months but did not intern this past junior summer.

I learned a lot, but after doing this internship I mostly learned about areas where I need work in....such as financial modeling and realizing the fact that a wharton finance education is BS useless joke.

I didn't intern because I wanted to broaden my skillset during the summer and take summer courses (graduating one semester early).

So instead of interning, I chose to take the CFA 1 and was able to pass it along with getting three financial modeling certs. I also took four college classes in the summer.

Will this hurt me significantly during FT recruiting fall due to the lack of a second internship and the fact that I did the ER one so long ago?

In reply to Mis Ind
8/22/07
Mis Ind:

True enough -- finance internships are by far the easiest way into finance if you're a freshman or sophomore. I worked in wealth management at Wachovia, at a boutique, and at Goldman before I went into IB.

To Schumacher: I don't want to dive too deep into discussing my current firm (as usual), but it's an interesting situation. I actually hate wealth management and would never have considered it except at this one specific firm which is quite different. The specific things that make my firm more selective:

1: We don't market or sell anything. We have a waiting list of clients who've heard of us through word-of-mouth. We turn away clients because we're too small to handle them the way we want to. This is in stark contrast to your average wealth management firm that is only trying to increase AUM.

2: Our clients are in the $400 million and up range -- these are individuals the size of companies. That means each associate handles only 8-10 clients, and that the work is extremely complex. Part of what we do for them is buy and sell companies, hotels, jets, yachts, vineyards, newspapers, and so forth. We need people who can not only tear through a DCF in two hours, but who can also become private jet experts in ten days, create presentations for venture capitalists, and value a private company with no product and no revenues. In contrast, the average wealth management analyst just does rebalancings and allocations, with maybe a little concentrated-equity or derivatives work.

3: Our clients are primarily Hollywood, Napa, or Silicon Valley types. Each has specific needs that go far beyond traditional finance.

...dude i dont mean to be an a-hole although I am in a bad mood, but you work in private banking. No different then a broker at a BB for high net worth individuals who does things like arrange travel, look for high-end works of art, etc. for clients. There is nothing unique about this business.

8/22/07

ms ind, I'm also curious about why you left banking? Were you told to get an MBA and let go?

Academically, my GPA at Wharton is quite poor, below 3, but I tried to make up for it by getting the CFA 1 and the FRM...the financial risk manager cert.

How do you view this in hiring?

8/22/07

Will the lack of a junior summer internship hurt you during FT recruiting? If you want to go to a BB IBD, then yes, even with the CFA 1 and whatever modeling certs you got from whatever company you got them from.

Does that mean you are screwed? Certainly not. It probably would have been better to go and do a big summer internship, but it sounds like you have plenty of fight left in you for fall recruiting. Also, remember that many of your competitors during fall recruiting didn't have great successful junior summer internships either, or else they'd probably have accepted those offers and would be off the market by now.

Good luck.

8/22/07

thanks a lot ms ind. I don't plan on going into a BB IBD (because my bad gpa) but investment management.

That's why I spent lots of time doing the cfa, frm, 3 modeling certs.

Will it hurt my chances as an analyst in asset management significantly?

I find it problematic to explain to an interviewer( or a recruitor who sees my resume) who may deem me trained in finance and modeling but lacking practical expereince utilizing these recently acquired skills.

How should I play this out in a positive way, for instance, to you?

8/22/07

Bondarb, I worked in wealth management for years. Trust me when I tell you that this is a very different company than Goldman or Wachovia. We don't buy art or arrange travel for clients. We do buy companies for them and arrange for venture capital for their next ideas. We don't sell securities or custody assets, and there's definitely no whiff of the brokerage about us. Nobody calls us because they lost 8% of their net worth overnight -- our clients have more money than they could ever spend. We're not even under SEC oversight.

I've always respected your opinions on the areas in which you work, but I can assure you that working with a $500 million client is an entirely different business than working with a $20 million client. These are individuals that function like corporations. There is M&A activity, and we advise on raising capital, selling shares, and so forth. I wouldn't have come here with an offer on the table from Carlyle had it not been an entirely different business than conventional wealth management.

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8/22/07

Strangesituations, it's not so bad if you want to go to work in wealth management. If you get the chance to explain it, then definitely do so. If not, then don't worry -- you still have nothing to be ashamed of.

By the way, I left banking because there was just nothing about it I enjoyed, and I couldn't see myself doing it for many more years. I decided to put my toe in the water to see what would bite, and I got some great offers. It probably would have turned out differently had I not joined the BB IBD group that I joined. It had been rumored to be the worst in the bank, but there were so many various rumors flying around that I chose not to believe them. The group turned out to be a very bad choice. Most of the analysts were unhappy and many of them were considering leaving early. There was a general sense that there was no level of protection to keep analysts from getting destroyed with back-to-back-to-back all-nighters. I'm not talking about the normal back-to-backs, I'm talking third-years spending four days straight in the office with no thanks and no consideration, only to be told to go and get a half-night's sleep and come back to start a fresh project the next morning. Nobody was happy -- particularly not me. Hope that answers your question.

8/22/07

...first of all i wouldnt know about working with either a $20mm or a $500mm client since i have never worked with a client in my life. I just hate the self-egrandizing BS you post constantly about how great everything you do is. Last time i was here a few months ago you told me that you had run money at age 20, were offered $70mm dollars to become a rich man's girlfriend, and that your husband was an auto mechanic. I suspect you live in a bit of a fantasy world. And last time i also asked you out and you said no which means you must be a lesbian.

8/22/07

Thanks ms ind. That was very informative. I hope you are happy in your current role.

What sort of skills do you value most in PWM besides modeling and finance knowledge?

(besides previous expereince, of course)

My greatest fear in terms of facing a recruitor is explaining my GPA at wharton... I relaxed a lot once I got in and the competition is fierce and thus I was squashed.

There are so many incongruencies with my grades and the level of knowledge. For instance, I have a C in a risk management type course, but later on I put in 200+ hours of studying and passed the FRM cert, which should negate that previous red flag.

Would you be able to overlook the gpa if the necessary finance skills are demonstrated or will it be a permanent red flag for recruiting?

Btw, ignore bondarb, he's just trolling

8/22/07

Bondarb, I'm not sure that everything I do is great. My tenure as a BB analyst sucked, for instance.

I've already discussed all of this with you, but we can rehash if you like. I made speculative investment decisions at a relatively early age with a small Atlanta firm that was in its startup phase. They have pulled in a truly bizarre range of guys -- from weightlifters to college sophomores to the guy who ran their IT infrastructure (no joke!) -- and handed them each chunks of the fund to essentially run. You may feel free to visit them on the web at www.yieldquest.com. I no longer have any association with them and I imagine they barely remember me.

I was never offered $70mm to become a rich man's girlfriend. A rich man worth $70 million wanted me to become his girlfriend and eventual wife (sans prenup), at which time I would most likely have become worth half of his $70. This is not at all an uncommon situation -- just look at all the guys worth $70mm with trophy wives. If you're a young woman with decent conversation and a face that isn't hideous, I guarantee you that if you run in the same circles I did, that you will also receive the same offer. I don't see why this comes off as strange.

I've never said my husband was an auto mechanic and don't see how that could have been believed from anything I've ever said. I am not married and have not ever been. If it's your intent to attack me, you should perhaps pull up these posts so that we can determine that you're not just flinging mud using false memories. You're way off-base on some of these.

Also, are you quite sure you've read all my posts? You didn't attack me at all for being a NASKA martial arts champion, for my bisexuality, or for my brief stuntwork appearance in the movie "Mortal Kombat". If you're going to attack everything I am, you might as well get the whole picture, right?

8/22/07

...were u really a stunt woman in Mortal Kombat? I missed that one. Also the martial arts championship and the bisexuality. I obviously havent read all the posts but they do sound interesting. I usually avoid girls who claim to be bisexual b/c i feel they are attention-seekers but i might consider letting you buy me dinner tommorow night if you ask nicely.

8/22/07

Considering how critical it is that you think highly of me, I'll fly right over. Per Se? 7:30? I'll be the one in the vintage Chanel tweed with the pearls. Dress code is evening semiformal, but be ready for action underneath. Looking forward to it. Mrrrow.

8/22/07

...oh u r such a wimp...sarcasm is the lowest form of communication. How about this: per se, 7:30p, and i'll even pay provided the us yield curve steepens tommorow...i am breaking my bisexuality rule which is big for me and i am a senior monkey which i know you respect.

8/22/07

...and understand that getting into per se tommorow night at 7:30p isnt going to be easy but i will do it...

8/22/07

sorry to jump in on the fun...but Miss Ind, would you mind addressing a question of mine regarding IBD info sessions? Specifically, I was wondering if, once the speakers are done talking, we would be better off spending our time schmoozing with the actual investment bankers, or the recruiters from the firm. For summer analyst positions, which have more say in the initial resume sorting process.

Thanks for your help and sorry again to interrupt the thread.

8/22/07

enjoyable.

+1

8/22/07

yea, i would like mine answered too....

"Would you be able to overlook the gpa if the necessary finance skills are demonstrated or will it be a permanent red flag for recruiting?"

Ms. ind, what were the most valuable skills that you acquired as an analyst? besides financial statements, modeling m and a.

8/22/07

strangesituations, i think the answer in your case is probably "it depends". if the gpa is too low, then no, if the work experience is really good, then yes. If neither of these fits, then the answer is unfortunately somewhere in the middle.

8/22/07

I think it's pathetic that you derive some perverse pleasure from making fun of people's resumes. It's regrettable that not everyone's an overachiever like yourself but the least you could do is cut them slack.

Secondly, none of the comments you posted are even remotely funny. It's clear that most people on this board don't appreciate the drivel you're posting, so I strongly suggest you instead use your time to educate these applicants on what they should or should not include in their resumes.

8/22/07

that guy who worked as a burger associate 7 years in a row is a complete idiot, as is anyone who tried to defend him.

why the hell does a fast food place need a sales associate anyway, are those the people i talk to in the drive thru?

in this day and age there is no reason for a middle-class teenager--LET ALONE A COLLEGE STUDENT-- to ever work at a fast food place. my first job when i was 15 was at a smoothie place in the mall. then i worked as an usher/concessionist at AMC theatres. i also worked at abercrombie at one point. all shitty jobs (nothing id EVER put on a resume) but not nearly as bad and degrading as flipping burgers, getting sweaty and pimply and treated like shit at McDonalds.

In reply to Seanc
8/22/07
Seanc:

I think it's pathetic that you derive some perverse pleasure from making fun of people's resumes. It's regrettable that not everyone's an overachiever like yourself but the least you could do is cut them slack.

That's what's so funny though: she isn't an overachiever, she's a huge UNDERachiever.

She stumbled in to a BB analyst gig as one of the oldest people there (i think she was like 25 when she started), then couldn't hack it a quit after 1 year to go to "boutique" PWM gig. LOL

8/22/07

The idea is not that the kid was flipping burgers, that is a respectable job. The idea was that even as this kid progressed through college, he did not pursue other jobs. There really is not much of an excuse for why someone flipped burgers their summer before senior year. A resume should paint a clear picture of your progression to the job that you are currently applying for. Going from McD's to PWM leaves a big gap and also calls into question the dedication and maturity of the candidate.

And I hate to say it, but some resumes are just kind of funny / sad. Tell me you don't get a kick out of someone attempting to glorify their work at The Gap or when little Jimmy Hotshot names himself the CEO/Co-Founder of "Hotshot & Co's Webdesign" and pretends like he is an entrepreneur.

CompBanker

8/22/07

I can't believe the reactions of some of the people here. It's easy to tell who has screened resumes before and who hasn't. When you're all done being indignant, consider this --- you're being given a rare opportunity to get a perspective from the other side of the table. You can whine or you can learn the lesson.

I reviewed around 200-300 resumes within the past year to hire roughly 10 full-time hires, 8-10 temps, and 6 interns for mostly back office support at a Fortune 500 (not a bank). I wouldn't even bother interviewing someone who's only experience was 5 summers of burgers. Not even for an internship, unless I saw something else in the education or extra-curriculars that was outstanding. And these are low-skill entry level positions, requiring far less sophistication than an investment banking analyst.

Here's a news flash reminder of the blatantly obvious: Investment banking is a competitive and selective field. The qualifications are well published and not a secret.

Sorry if anyone's feelings are hurt, but there are lots of other jobs and careers out there. You can either put in the effort to qualify yourself, or just move on.

In reply to Schumacher
8/23/07
Schumacher:

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

Actually, there's only one way to look at this. If you're screening resumes, who do you work for? The firm or this guy? Your job is to get the best candidate from a big stack. Period. I know people who work in burger joints and mail rooms, and it hasn't changed my mind.

In a fight between a big guy and a little guy, the big guy doesn't always win. But that's the one you bet on. And if you're betting the company's money, it had better be on the big guy, if you want to keep YOUR job.

Getting clearer?

In reply to Restructure This
8/23/07
Restructure This:

I can't believe the reactions of some of the people here. It's easy to tell who has screened resumes before and who hasn't. When you're all done being indignant, consider this --- you're being given a rare opportunity to get a perspective from the other side of the table. You can whine or you can learn the lesson.

I reviewed around 200-300 resumes within the past year to hire roughly 10 full-time hires, 8-10 temps, and 6 interns for mostly back office support at a Fortune 500 (not a bank). I wouldn't even bother interviewing someone who's only experience was 5 summers of burgers. Not even for an internship, unless I saw something else in the education or extra-curriculars that was outstanding. And these are low-skill entry level positions, requiring far less sophistication than an investment banking analyst.

Here's a news flash reminder of the blatantly obvious: Investment banking is a competitive and selective field. The qualifications are well published and not a secret.

Sorry if anyone's feelings are hurt, but there are lots of other jobs and careers out there. You can either put in the effort to qualify yourself, or just move on.

Too bad it's for a crappy PWM job and not banking.

8/23/07

i think the general impression was that a kid was being dinged just for having a burger experience on his resume. If someone had just this (and little else), I'd be surprised if anyone here would hesitate to throw the resume into the trash.

8/23/07

Anyone else have interesting resume stories to tell? I can think of two.

One i-banking analyst applicant's resume was too impressive. He started his own company while in college, raised millions in funding, and eventually had over 300 employees before the internet bubble popped. We chose not to interview him. To go from that to maintaining comps and other analyst BS would have been too big a change (plus his resume didn't show any interest in banking).

A different applicant (this time for a small fund PE job) listed "cats" under the personal section of his resume. When the interviewer asked him about it, he said that he currently had 8 of them as pets. This probably wouldn't have prevented him from doing the job, but it weirded us all out and I think hurt his chances.

In reply to Restructure This
8/23/07
Restructure This:
Schumacher:

There are two ways you can look at this. You can write him off as some untouchable not worthy of your "boutique wealth management firm" (whatever that means). OR you could view this person as a candidate who stuck it out in jobs that probably sucked. Doesnt the finance industry value real down and dirty work anymore? Some of the best bankers and traders in the world got their start in mail rooms and retail centers.

Actually, there's only one way to look at this. If you're screening resumes, who do you work for? The firm or this guy? Your job is to get the best candidate from a big stack. Period. I know people who work in burger joints and mail rooms, and it hasn't changed my mind.

In a fight between a big guy and a little guy, the big guy doesn't always win. But that's the one you bet on. And if you're betting the company's money, it had better be on the big guy, if you want to keep YOUR job.

Getting clearer?

Youre right, the candidate is clearly not ready for the job if his only experience is flipping burgers. I was merely saying working those types of jobs and putting them on your resume SHOULD never get you an auto-ding.

It's like in Reservoir Dogs when Mr. Pink refuses to tip the waitress. You have to show a little respect. SOME people have to support themselves through H.S. and college and often times people in certain areas have to resort to fast food and retail no matter how good their GPA is. Let me tell you, coming from the midwest; GPA and school prestige didnt mean $hit when it came time to look for a summer job. That said, the kid should have def. found SOMETHING in the general industry his junior summer.

I'd also like to say that a lot of people are showing Mis. Ind disrespect on this board. So she may be a little braggy and she thinks shes working for the coolest company since the one that invented sliced bread. But so what? More power to her. She was nice enough to post a job opportunity and is getting flamed for it. Play nice, gentlemen.

8/23/07

Schumacher, it's cool. I've been around for a while on this board . There are always gasps and fingerpointing around my general lack of respect for poor resume composition. My hope is that someday folks will understand that it's not the individuals I'm hating on, but their inability to cover up (and occasionally their willingness to advertise) their occasionally-hilarious shortcomings. If there's one thing I want everyone to take away from this, it's not that they're not supposed to flip burgers or play video games, but that they should pay very close attention to every word of their resume from the viewpoint of the interviewer.

My cool company -- well, you should understand that it's quite a change for me. I hated my last company. Not just my group within the investment bank, but the incompetent HR, the disappearing IT staff, and the constant stupid mottoes being generated by the big guys in their big offices. In contrast, my new company is very California -- we have life coaches and Aeron chairs, and upon joining I was asked what the company could do to help me actualize myself -- but it is also very cool. And I say that in joy and relief, because it's certainly not the norm for me. I'm not the kind of person who works at cool companies. I'm the kind of person who works at crappy companies. Hell, I did time in Wachovia PWM as a sophomore.

After a year of heavy dealflow at a bulge-bracket IB and with great relationships with four big recruiters and one small recruiter, I had decent options. Out of the 30+ jobs I actively considered and could easily have gotten, including big PE and other bulge-bracket investment banks, there's a reason this one stood out for me, and a reason I took it. That reason is that it's the coolest damn job I saw. Everyone else wanted me to be an analyst -- but on the basis of age and gravitas, this company wanted me as a partner-track associate and offered me my own clients, many of whom I already knew about and looked up to. I was like, "Wait, I get to work with that guy whose podcasts I download religiously? And that guy whose wine I drink?" Throw in pay that is 90% of a top-bucket bulge-bracket IBD analyst's, hours that are half that of said analyst, and I'm sold. Y'all can hate all you want, but by the time I'm done vacationing in both Sonoma and Vegas every month (if I care to), buying my big house on the peninsula, buying my fiance his dream car, working my fifty with my awesome ex-Berkeley analysts, and spending three to four hours every day on leisure and fitness, I probably won't have much time to look back and think, "Oh man, they were right! I should have stayed in the investment bank!"

8/23/07

What do you do on a daily basis in your associate role at PWM?

8/23/07

Firm description sounds more like PE/HF than PWM.

Also, much better to see something similar on your resume getting laughed at on an anonymous online forum than in the real thing.

8/23/07

Today (and this is a fairly average day) I'm building a pitchbook to help a client sell his idea/company to Siemens, liquidating $2.5m of a normally-illiquid asset to cover a client's yacht purchase, calling the tax guy to model out taxation for that sale and the rest of the position, doing phone interviews with analyst candidates, trying to trade for a better running back in our office fantasy football league, digging through associate candidate resumes, making sure a client's sale of a small company went through yesterday, and building a better client scheduling model to ensure that the senior partner isn't as overloaded as he has been recently.

I've done sexier things than this, such as model out the optimal exercise schedule, tax schedule, and cash flow schedule for $300m in concentrated options on a highly volatile stock of a company for which the client is the CEO (and thus all trades have to conform to the laws involving insider trading), but that's what I'm doing today, for what it's worth.

8/23/07

So basically the brunt of your work is modeling various transactions?

thanks a lot for the insight

8/23/07

Depends on what you call a transaction. I'll probably never be called upon to build an LBO here. But in terms of how these very large transactions affect the complex tax structure and cash flows and asset allocations of an individual (who, bear in mind, is actually a tangle of trusts and LLCs and C-corps and charities and S-corps by the time he becomes our client), there is significant modeling. Similarly to investment banking, our models tend to run to 25-30 worksheets and contain significant VBA work. I'll probably end up getting more of a modeling workout here than I did at a bulge-bracket investment bank due to the heavy VBA exposure.

Disclaimer: My firm is a freak of nature and this is not at all what PWM is normally like. Do not go into PWM if you are looking for heavy modeling exposure.

8/23/07

Hi, thanks a lot for the important insight once again.

When you were an analyst at BB, did you extensively use VBA? I don't know an ounce of VBA, is it important to learn this as soon as possible? How long does it take to learn VBA to a competent level?

A lot of the transactions you describe, I've never been exposed to them as a student. I'm assuming that you picked them up during your BB stint?

Another question, how many analysts do you supervise?

8/23/07

wow MisInd, your PWM gig is SO hardcore!

8/23/07

can you put more resume stories?

8/23/07
Mis Ind:

Candidate 6: Fanatic video gamer (mainly console).

just noticed the "mainly console" lmao. what a freakin douchebag, these people need to be slapped (as do all your haters on this board and everyone who gets offended when you post these resumes)

this is not as good as your old resume post though, that one was meaner, funnier.

8/23/07

Thanks, h4zin. I was wondering why nobody was laughing about that one. I thought it was freaking hilarious, particularly because I'm a video gamer myself (mainly PC these days, but I have also been known to break out the little plastic mini-guitar, turn my amps to 11, and rock out).

I think you can have a lot more fun with IBD candidates than PWM candidates, though. After all, IBD guys are supposed to be at the very top of the heap. The candidates I'm looking at now are more real, more normal, and less conformist. There's just less to laugh about. Sorry I'm not able to be at the top of my game this time around.

Popping: I'd say it's hardcore, except that I'm usually home by 7:00 and I've worked all of eight total hours on weekends in the last ten weeks. I don't think any gig can be hardcore at 50-55 hours a week. There's nothing hardcore about standing up at 6:30 and saying, "Welp, that's enough for one day. I'll do all this tomorrow or the day after." It's just too damn relaxed to be hardcore.

Strangesituations, don't worry about VBA. If you need it, you'll learn it on the job, but chances are that you won't need it. It's fairly specialized.

Right now I have one dedicated analyst and half of a shared analyst. When we are fully staffed, each associate will have two dedicated analysts and part of a third shared analyst. Analysts work the same hours we do -- around 50-55.

8/23/07

I don't really care about the content of these resumes. I'm bothered by some of you douchebags making fun of them.

I do get annoyed when some idiot posts this garbage on here. Personally, If I knew someone in reality who was doing this type of shit, they'd be choking on their own fuckin' teeth.

8/23/07

Hey Mis Ind,

How is your firm compensated by clients, considering how "bespoke" your services are?

8/23/07

Pete, we are a flat fee as a percent of total assets. No commissions, no kickbacks, no conflicts of interest. It's kind of nice compared to what I've seen -- at Wachovia, the advisors were churning to make their commission, and at Goldman they were putting clients into funds with inflated expenses (and significant soft-dollar transactions on top of that) in order to bump up the fees.

8/23/07

Fast food experience ought to make someone the ideal candidate for a job in wealth management.

Everyone I know in wealth management says the clients are entitled scumbags who make endless demands.

All that separates them from the folks in line at McDonald's is their net worth.

The best story I even heard about the kind of morons you encounter in wealth management was a rich woman calling in the middle of the night needing help using an ATM. She didn't know about PIN numbers.

She had enough money that Northern Trust sent someone to her house with the cash she needed.

In reply to Seanc
8/23/07
Seanc:

I don't really care about the content of these resumes. I'm bothered by some of you douchebags making fun of them.

I do get annoyed when some idiot posts this garbage on here. Personally, If I knew someone in reality who was doing this type of shit, they'd be choking on their own fuckin' teeth.

Seriously, the moral high-ground is already packed around here. Sure there's room for you too?

What would make this thread gold would be pictures. Next time you advertise for a position, ask for a photo to be included with the resume. Can you imagine the flaming session that would accompany that?

It's a little tongue-in-cheek, but do it. I'd laugh.

8/23/07

I've experienced lots of clients. The ones I worked with on the East Coast were generally morons. I remember one eighty-year-old client at Goldman who simply couldn't understand the concept of options, even though he had a lot of them.

Of course, in places like Silicon Valley, one works with clients who have high IQs, who are young, involved, capable. Not only do they know how to use an ATM, they also created and built the technology and websites most of us use every day for things like sharing video clips, buying books/movies/videos, searching the web, and networking.

So I think the answer is that there are two types of clients: good and bad. You want to be serving the intellectual visionaries, not the people who are rich because their fathers or husbands were rich.

8/23/07

Does your firm deal with any Japanese clients? (west coast was flooded with them in the 90's)

Anyways, I have a friend (American) who is a second year analyst at Lehman Brothers Japan who wants to relocate to the west coast. Fluent in Japanese and getting VERY good at Korean. Wants to keep a lot of his focus on Asian markets though, but he is an all around renaissance man.

Doesnt come from a "top" school though, so if thats a problemo with your firm let me know and I will tell him to not waste his time (which if you know anything about Japan, he has no time) or yours. Thanks

8/23/07

What area of Lehman? Sounds like an interesting guy. Schools aren't really an issue here -- we specifically target Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, and a few others, but we're looking at people from all over at the moment. And if he's worked in Japan, he'll have a lot of mannerisms that will help him here.

I innately do the business-card ritual (and the Japanese martial arts subculture I grew up in was culturally very Japanese, so I retained the body language, senior mirroring, and female facilitation quirks as well as the stupid gaijin/stupid girl trick), and when I exhibited Japanese-style mannerisms with a particular client (American), he grinned and said, "Ah. You've done business with the Japanese, I see. Excellent. I like that."

8/23/07

SOMEBODY SHUT THIS WOMAN UP FOR CHRISSAKES

In reply to Mis Ind
8/23/07
Mis Ind:

Schools aren't really an issue here -- we specifically target Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, and a few others, but we're looking at people from all over at the moment.

Please, only abject failures from those schools would want to work at your firm.

8/23/07

Can you people stop disrespecting her pwm job? It's shallow and annoying.

In reply to strangesituations
8/23/07
strangesituations:

Can you people stop disrespecting her pwm job? It's shallow and annoying.

So you don't think the entire premise of this thread is shallow?

8/23/07

Your resumA(c) schtick could be funny, Miss Ind, but it actually comes across as lame and annoying. The fact that you have to explain the punchlines makes it all the more pathetic.

Yes, the kids you are describing are severely lacking in relevant experience and wholly unprofessional. But nobody outside of your firm cares. Stereotypical Wall Street arrogance needn't find its way onto an anonymous forum. You're not giving a "wake up call" or a "recruiter's point of view" to high finance job candidates with these particular examples. And no offense, but your haughty attitude and falsely indignant, lengthy rants about "how-tough-this-business-is" make you sound like a real bitch.

8/23/07

It might be shallow, but it doesn't seem too different from when someone from North Dakota State asks if they can work at GS, and then blasted for being a po dunk and for going to a tier 8 school.

Regardless, if you're killing time at work, this place can be entertaining.

8/23/07

Please more examples of resumes, and less blabbing about your life. I enjoy your resume examples though.

Clear, concise, to the point, this is a finance board after all no?

8/23/07

...i am highly impressed. So Miss Ind, you so immersed yourself in your kung fu training that you "went native" and developed the mannerisms of an actual Japanese woman? Was it like Kill Bill II when Uma trained with that guy with the funny beard? After your childhood spent training in the black arts of Japanese kung fu what turned you towards human resources?

8/24/07

Hahaha this thread is funny on so many levels.

I would imagine that people looking through resumes for recruiting analysts would be too focused on finding quality applicants to waste time laughing at people who clearly have no idea how the system works, but hell what do I know

But Miss Ind if you really wanted to have fun and a good laugh, you should pick the most clueless of these candidates and bring them in for an interview, then screw with them.

8/24/07

Great ones, Bondarb. I've never studied kung fu. That's a Chinese art. I studied solely Japanese martial arts -- Yoshukai, Shotokan, Iaido, and enough Aikido to make the Iaido stick. No real "black arts" in Japan (ninjutsu is largely a joke these days), and kung fu certainly doesn't qualify as a "black art" in China by most people's standards. I work in PWM, not HR, as you're well aware, though certainly with this new assignment I've ended up spending far too much of my time digging through resumes.

In terms of Japanese womanhood versus manhood -- there were certainly no room for hai-hai girls in any of the dojo I trained at. I suppose it was a sort of honorary manhood -- I came of age speaking masculine Japanese, not feminine Japanese, because that's what my teachers spoke. It caused my first Japanese language teacher outside martial arts to laugh at me constantly. Inside the dojo, I was one of the guys. I learned the hai-hai trick working for Americans, actually. Turns out that the things you learn doing business with Japanese people can be highly useful with Americans too.

I also wouldn't say I 'immersed myself'. Since I didn't go to school or spend time with people outside the art, that's just who I was.

My friends kept asking me to see that movie because I was "just like" Uma's character. When I finally saw it, the thing was painful. I truly loathe martial arts movies of all sorts.

I think the reason my life comes off as so difficult to believe is that so many of you haven't known anyone who's made radically different life choices. Think of all the thousands upon thousands of hours your average decently-intelligent IBOasis monkey has spent on television, family, music, magazines, high school, et cetera from age 10 onwards. Now take all of those hours and put them into solely worthwhile or unusual things. Not leisure: study. Self-polishing. I didn't think this was all that unusual, but as folks continue to be surprised and skeptical, it must be.

You guys really don't get out much if you've never met a twenty-six year old with rich and varied experiences before. Not everyone follows the rules or drinks the societal Kool-Aid.

8/24/07

ms ind

your firm actually sounds pretty interesting. i think a few people on the board are just wound up because exit ops are drying up? just a guess.. it's nice to see something new on this board - which died when everybody found out about it. if people still remember, this used to be a great board to further our careers and mis ind tends to help people have a different perspective on everything.

how many people do you tend to take per yr? how long has it been around? any growth strategies since it has "too much business"?

any regrets? i also believe you mentioned you were offered a position at a top PE? or did i imagine that..

8/24/07

Nickelbags, we're taking at least seven more analysts and three more associates this year. It's essentially my job and my mentor's job to ensure that we grow constructively rather than destructively -- a tall order since we are nearly doubling the amount of hands on deck.

Firm's been around for about thirty years, growth strategy is "Get as many great people as fast as possible and don't screw up, Mis Ind, because the whole firm is depending on you to bring in only the very best people while still handling your normal workload and these four very important side projects." Or at least, that's what it feels like to me. Heh.

No regrets. I live in a large, beautiful home in the town with the world's most perfect climate (it's true; google "Redwood City" and "best climate"), I can buy whatever I want, travel wherever I want, pamper my wonderful fiance, get all the sleep I want, and still have time for leisure, fitness, and writing the Great American Novel. I can buy a nice house in a few years, have kids, keep my sanity, and work on myself the way I once did. I've literally never been this happy in my entire life. And that includes the most idyllic moments of my childhood.

Yeah: zero regrets. I've always had more on my plate to accomplish than the New York IBD / PE track would permit. I'm not saying this would be a good path for everyone, but it is the right one for me. A year in IB was useful, though -- it got me this exit opportunity.

In reply to Mis Ind
8/24/07

Mis Ind, I'm guessing your firm is not very well known - as in it's not a household name such as GS where every man knows about it and could easily send a resume in for his dog.

Why do you have all these underperformers who are aware of your firm and apply for it?

In any case, I agree that PWM or WM is nothing like what you're doing.

8/24/07

Trampled, there are essentially two paths to us. The first is through one of the three recruiters that we work with, and the second is through the schools at which we recruit. Having a job posted on these schools' online job site has turned out to be a mixed bag. On the one hand, I've gotten plenty of recent graduate resumes -- good for me, because I would rather not wait until May to get these people. On the other hand, I think in college we all knew somebody (or several somebodies, in my case) who waited until senior year to think about what they were going to do for a living. Those somebodies are clearly flocking in droves to my job spec.

8/24/07

This is pathetic.

And I say pathetic because I emailed Miss Ind several months ago asking if she'd be interested in looking over my resume and giving me a thumbs up or a thumbs down after I read an older thread of hers like this. Needless to say, I received no reply. I now no longer need any type of resume review, but reading this drivel is terrible.

She wouldn't even reply to a request to constructively look over a resume real quick, but she has time to post this horse shit about honest applicants making an effort. I guess it must feel good to have a decent job after all those years you were laughed at in high school huh? Revenge sure is sweet huh Miss Ind!

What a joke. Privately joking about applicants is one thing, but public humiliation to improve your status on this forum is repulsive and disgraceful.

Also, it's pretty funny reading her attempts to rationalize and prove to everyone how great a life she has. Gj Miss Ind...the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

In reply to greenman101
8/24/07
greenman101:

the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

Wtf is the point of your post then?

Seriously, people keep asking on this forum about "what recruiters look for/don't look for". Now that someone actually posts examples of what not to do, people complain about how mean she's being.

8/24/07

Sorry, dude. First, I get around two private message requests a week to review resumes on IBO. I do my best to get around to them all, but my job comes first -- and several months ago, I was involved in moving my life and my career from New York to San Francisco. Clearly I've offended you by not reviewing your resume, and I apologize. However, as you said, this is only an internet forum. You don't have a right to my help. If I have time to help you, I will, and if I don't, I won't. It's not personal.

Also, going a little further along the not-personal lines, I didn't go to high school and I certainly didn't laugh at you or get laughed at there. I don't know where you're coming from or what kind of emotional stuff you've got tied up in your resume, but please understand that I don't know you and I'm not laughing at your resume. Unless you are one of the above applicants.

8/24/07

C'mon, if you're not going to live in The City you should at least be in Menlo Park, Woodside, PA or Atherton. I'd choose Burlingame or Mountain View over RC.

;)

In reply to greenman101
8/24/07
Mis Ind:

I get around two private message requests a week to review resumes on IBO. I do my best to get around to them...

True. I can't review each resume I get in 5 seconds and give solid feedback. I like to spend some time, try to give quality advice. Unfortunately, sometimes I have the time, most of the time I don't.

greenman101:

This is pathetic...reading this drivel is terrible.

Mis Ind gives good advice to you kids... if you don't like what she's writing that's perfectly fine. Just ignore it. No need to get into personal attacks and judgments.

In reply to freeloader
8/24/07

The point of my post is to announce how she's more interested in getting some laughs and "forum status points" by making fun of these people than she is in telling people what she looks for or helping people out with some insight.

She attacks their personal work experience; not their resume. There is a difference between providing criticism of the resume, and providing criticism of their work experience and accomplishments.

And hey, Miss Ind, I can surely appreciate you were too busy to look at mine. I took no offense. However, when you're too busy to respond to direct requests for help, but aren't too busy to post crap like this that denigrates people's personal work for the sake of a few laughs then it reflects poorly on you.

I have no patience for accomplished people who look down and snub the little guys who are trying to work hard and get ahead. It's pathetic. You were once in that position yourself.

freeloader:
greenman101:

the only problem is nobody gives a flying fuck. This is only an internet forum.

Wtf is the point of your post then?

Seriously, people keep asking on this forum about "what recruiters look for/don't look for". Now that someone actually posts examples of what not to do, people complain about how mean she's being.

8/24/07

Those resumes are wonderfully bad.
I should tell my friend Tom to not put his gaming strengths on his resume. Hah.

8/24/07

Regardless, anyone who is actually serious about trying to get into a similar field, should not be taking advice from a forum so seriously. There is a ton of misinformation floating around that really might steer you in the wrong direction.

In reply to greenman101
8/24/07
greenman101:

She attacks their personal work experience; not their resume. There is a difference between providing criticism of the resume, and providing criticism of their work experience and accomplishments.

With all due respect, those "experiences" you speak of are absolutely terrible and absolutely deserve to be made fun of. If a senior in college is dumb enough to work 6 summers at McDonalds or seriously thinks "fanatic video gamer" is appropriate or relevant to a resume, then they absolutely deserve to be laughed at.

You may have no tolerance for the accomplished people, but I have less tolerance for the mediocre people who don't have the common sense to read any one of the hundreds of resume writing guides on the internet before submitting it to an actual employer.

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