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Your "Target Schools" lists are outdated and off-base
 

bulge_bracket's picture
(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:00pm
target school list.jpg

Obviously a huge topic of interest on WSO is that of the "target school," especially when those who are in high school ask for advice regarding which school they should go to to maximize recruiting. I'm starting at a large BB this summer, and I think that the numbers of how many students from each school we have (at all locations, not just New York, although the rankings are nearly identical just for NYC) is very interesting and completely contrasts the reality of this last year's recruiting with what we expected.

Now yes, I know that one year at one BB may not be indicative of a larger trend or trends at other banks, but it's still very interesting and useful information. Here are the undergrad results. I'm only listing the schools that most would call targets; there were some smaller schools that carried 3 or 4 students (like Bucknell) that I didn't write down.

Notre Dame, Georgetown - 10
Cambridge, UPenn, Vandy, Cornell - 9
Dartmouth, Duke, MIT, UT Austin - 8
University of Chicago, Brown, Columbia, Stanford - 6
UC Berkeley, NYU, USC, Northwestern - 5
Yale - 4
Harvard, LSE, Wake Forest - 3
Princeton - 2

As you can see, this should serve as a wake-up call that attending HYSW isn't the end-all. In fact, I was utterly shocked that Princeton and Harvard didn't fare better (only two graduates going to this bank from Princeton, really??). This should also serve as a reminder that going to a top 25 or so school (based on U.S. News/World Report) will most likely set you up in a good spot for recruiting regardless of what you choose. Finally, this should remind you that most people on WSO have no idea what they're talking about. Georgetown and ND fared better than any other school this year here and yet I constantly see people degrading schools in that vein stating that recruiting "doesn't even come close" to an Ivy. Well, clearly, that's not the case, at least not anymore or this past year. It does matter a great deal if you go to a good school - I was surprised that certain large state schools literally weren't able to get one person into the firm that year via networking, but it's important to remember that your (or U.S. News and World Report's) "ranking" of which school is best doesn't necessarily jibe with what your employer thinks. Except for Wharton, the "Top Ivies" are clearly struggling or not doing as well as they had in years past. Maybe this is due to all the liberal arts majors we see now at Ivies, maybe it's due to affirmative action, etc. But what's clear is that people should pay a little less attention to where others are telling them to study because "it's more prestigious, it's ranked three spots higher" and pay a little more attention to where they feel they'd fit in and thrive.

Tags:
futurectdoc's picture

I think you discount size and

IB
(King Kong, 1,675
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 3:50pm

I think you discount size and the fact that n=1, Princeton has a graduating class of approximately 1200, UT Austin may have ten times that and not all people at HYPWS plan to go into IBD.

Thurnis Haley's picture

Do we have to argue about

(Orangutan, 367
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 3:52pm

Do we have to argue about this every day? Why don't people go to the school they like the most and just try their hardest to get good grades and see where it takes them?

bulge_bracket's picture

futurectdoc: I think you

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 3:59pm
futurectdoc:

I think you discount size and the fact that n=1, Princeton has a graduating class of approximately 1200, UT Austin may have ten times that and not all people at HYPWS plan to go into IBD.

You're right, I didn't specifically list this in the post, obviously the fact that UT is on there is a testament to McCombs honors and the size of the school. However, schools like ND and Georgetown are 2,000 graduating, not much different than Princeton. Yes, the students may have different plans, but I don't think that they'd be that entirely different, especially at Catholic schools that pride themselves on students going into "service" and what not. I just thought the statistics were very interesting and I just get annoyed when WSO mocks those who would "even consider" picking a school like Vandy over an Ivy.

revoad's picture

ooc, which bank?

 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 4:03pm

ooc, which bank?

Rambo's picture

Good post, OP. Like I said

(Baboon, 150
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 4:13pm

Good post, OP.

Like I said before on this forum, based on my personal experiences (visiting & networking), the most common Ivies I've encountered at top banks are Penn, Cornell and Columbia. Your list seems to parallel my own findings.

BlackHat's picture

Penn is the most represented

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 4:39pm

Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

I hate victims who respect their executioners

Follow BH & Co. on Twitter: @DumbLuckCapital
twitter.com/DumbLuckCapital

Macro Arbitrage's picture

^ For some reason I found

HF
(King Kong, 1,369
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:15pm

^ For some reason I found your post hysterical, perhaps due to the validity.

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Xepa's picture

BlackHat: Penn is the most

CO
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:23pm
BlackHat:

Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

The level of conjecture in that post is both disturbing and hilarious.

Reminds me of this commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7udQSHWpL88

hopesanddreams's picture

Where are you interning? New

(Orangutan, 329
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:29pm

Where are you interning? New York? Don't get how Oxbridge/LSE people get internships in the USA when there's such a VISA issue fuss.

jimmyrustles's picture

To the op - were there any

(Chimp, 14
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:35pm

To the op - were there any analysts from Middlebury? Thanks in advance.

ILOVENYGUY's picture

This most likely reflects the

(Orangutan, 343
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:36pm

This most likely reflects the fact that ibanking is losing its luster - the smarter kids are recognizing that Wall Street returns and pay structure are screwed for a long time to come and are looking elsewhere for their future.

Look, the leverage is gone from the bank's balance sheets so the returns are plumetting, the equity markets going nowhere and the equity culture is slowly dying. Big corporate clients have figured out that they can source and process their own deals. Mutual funds and hedge funds are losing assets and can't afford to pay the commissions like they used to also they have tremendous pressure from their boards to do electronic trading, depriving the banks of high margin high touch business.

Maybe fixed income and derivatives are still making money but you actually need quant skills to do that so your little "business" degree won't matter - they want physics PhDs from MIT.

HYPS see that the banking job is a dead end and go and do something else. Realistically, making much over $1mn working traditional investment banking jobs is now much harder even if you make it to the MD level and you destroy your health and personal life in the process.

anon56's picture

@hopesanddreams You know

 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:38pm

@hopesanddreams

You know americans can study at Oxbridge/LSE right?

BlackHat's picture

I was depressed nobody was in

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:42pm

I was depressed nobody was in the chatroom right after I made that post, because I pointed it out as my most dick-ish, hilarious, yet accurate post on this site so far. Personal favorite though.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

Follow BH & Co. on Twitter: @DumbLuckCapital
twitter.com/DumbLuckCapital

bulge_bracket's picture

This isn't just for banking,

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:42pm

This isn't just for banking, these are numbers across banking, S&T, etc. Yes, wall street in general may have lost prestige for those coming out of school, but just for everyone's information it's not just banking. @hopesanddreams, this is for all locations, mostly New York but some Chicago as well and some other cities occasionally.

bulge_bracket's picture

BlackHat: Penn is the most

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:49pm
BlackHat:

Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

Yeah, except there's one problem. You haven't demonstrated how students from Princeton necessarily are more talented than those who go to a school like Georgetown/ND. Especially in today's day and age when affirmative action stops some of the brightest from going to top Ivies, I don't think most employers place the premium on HYP Ivy educations that they used to. And again, for some of these schools banking is the least-represented job, most of them are in fact S&T with some capital markets as well.
Also, I agree in that some of the higher-up people in IBD are mediocre, but these aren't necessarily alumni hiring their own, I'm sure you know how complex the superday process works and how many people have input. What are the rest of the HYP grads doing then, going straight to PE? I don't think so - even if the Wall Street professions are filled with mediocrity, you'd still see many coming from HYP in order to some day lateral.

3176401's picture

Very informative post OP. You

 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:48pm
melvvvar's picture

bulge_bracket: BlackHat: Pe

(King Kong, 1,693
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:54pm
bulge_bracket's picture

ILOVENYGUY: HYPS see that the

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:54pm
ILOVENYGUY's picture

I do a lot of recruiting -

(Orangutan, 343
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 5:57pm
BlackHat's picture

Normally I'm here to provide

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:00pm

I hate victims who respect their executioners

Follow BH & Co. on Twitter: @DumbLuckCapital
twitter.com/DumbLuckCapital

bulge_bracket's picture

melvvvar: bulge_bracket:

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:01pm
ILOVENYGUY's picture

The reality is that rewards

(Orangutan, 343
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:01pm
sdxdtx's picture

So.... if a rising senior in

(Monkey, 33
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:09pm
darknight12's picture

ILOVENYGUY: The reality is

 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:08pm
ChicagoBears1's picture

This is either GS or BAML.

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:09pm
bulge_bracket's picture

sdxdtx: So.... if a rising

(Orangutan, 258
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:11pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
dazedmonk's picture

Is this all front-office

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:20pm
sdxdtx's picture

bulge_bracket: sdxdtx: So..

(Monkey, 33
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:22pm
ILOVENYGUY's picture

I didn't say that we want

(Orangutan, 343
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:37pm
thesevelvetmornings's picture

Out of curiosity, where is

(Monkey, 42
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:40pm
ILOVENYGUY's picture

Boaz Weinstein went to

(Orangutan, 343
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 6:43pm
kmzz's picture

ye usc

O
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:39pm
The Phantom's picture

BlackHat: Penn is the most

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:41pm
BlackHat's picture

Shouldn't be too surprising.

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:44pm

I hate victims who respect their executioners

Follow BH & Co. on Twitter: @DumbLuckCapital
twitter.com/DumbLuckCapital

seedy underbelly's picture

BlackHat: Penn is the most

IB
(King Kong, 1,090
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:54pm
helpmepleasethx's picture

Are UC Berkley and Stanford

(Gorilla, 524
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:52pm
BlackHat's picture

seedy underbelly: This is not

HF
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 7:59pm

I hate victims who respect their executioners

Follow BH & Co. on Twitter: @DumbLuckCapital
twitter.com/DumbLuckCapital

seedy underbelly's picture

BlackHat: seedy

IB
(King Kong, 1,090
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 8:03pm
leveredarb's picture

BlackHat: Penn is the most

(King Kong, 1,231
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 8:09pm
melvvvar's picture

signal/noise ratio on this

(King Kong, 1,693
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 8:56pm
period I Am's picture

I don't know if this adds any

(Monkey, 59
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 9:03pm
BTbanker's picture

Selling umbrellas- $10 ea.

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 9:58pm

"A man generally has two reasons for doing anything. One that sounds good, and the real one." - J.P. Morgan

ginNtonic's picture

ChicagoBears1: This is either

(Gorilla, 562
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 10:56pm
Cries's picture

Not BAML...there's no Wake

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 11:28pm
ginNtonic's picture

Touche. Yeah and I noticed

(Gorilla, 562
 
Points)
 on 5/28/12 at 11:38pm

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