Can You Be Limitless?

Admittedly late to the game on this BUT, much has been written around the interwebs (including an old forum post on this site back from 2008) of mental stimulants and miracle drugs capable of turning your average state schooler with a middling GPA into the next techno-wunderkind but one I want to focus on today is a drug called Modafinil. This posting on Tech Crunch from a few years ago touches on the subject of this drug (under its prescription name Provigil) as being the Silicon Valley entrepreneur drug of choice. But is it all it’s cracked up to be? And just how good/dangerous is this stuff?

Anyone who has seen the movie Limitless knows Bradley Cooper’s character finds a wonder drug to essentially propel him into a level of cerebral most people can only dream of. That’s Hollywood for you.

However, there seems to be anecdotal evidence that Modafinil is a drug that has similar affects, as attested by many of its prescribed users. Keeping in mind this drug was developed to aid those with sleeping disorders like apnea and insomnia, this article touches on a test done with military pilots of the famous F-117 Nighthawk (i.e. one of the most badass planes we have, just Google it and you’ll see).

While no one crashed or even came close to crashing, researchers said flight precision most noticeably changed between 33 hours and 38 hours into the test.

Armed with this initial data, the scientists returned to Holloman a few months later for the modafinil study.

Scientists said that while the pilots were on the medication, their performance "significantly improved," especially after 25 hours without sleep. The pilots also sustained brain activity at almost normal levels despite their sleeplessness.

During the simulator tests, modafinil "significantly" reduced the effects of fatigue during flight manoeuvres, researchers said.

Under the influence of modafinil, flight performance degraded by 15 to 30 percent. Performance by pilots without the medication degraded by 60 to 100 percent compared to fully rested performance levels.

The results of the testing were heavily conclusive - modafinil was effective for reducing the impact of fatigue.

What I find most interesting in this mini study is that it seems to actually back up claims of being cognitive and alert for almost 40 straight hours with limited reductions in alertness, mental capacity and decision making. Remarkable! I’m usually skeptical of this stuff as I’m sure many of you are but just look at what some of the commenters on this post had to say about it.

Here are a few more links:
Bullet Proof Exec

A Drug Can Make Sleep Optimal

So what do you guys think? Does anyone out there take this or know someone who does? Are you willing to – ahem – recommend to a doctor that you should get a prescription for this? And if there are in fact major kidney risks (as common with most pills) is it all really worth it? I personally think has to wreak havoc on your system over a prolonged period of time if not taken medicinally, but curious to hear anyone out there with experience on this.

 

The human mind is the most complex machine in the universe. Still to this day psychology is much assumed, neurology is much trial and error, and drugs are quite the same. Did we imagine to have a device capable of obtaining any information a Harvard library could (A smartphone for you slow ones) in the palm of our hands 15 years ago? Probably not. Could we perfect our brain to absorb a lot more? Probably, but it will take a hell of a lot of time, plus sleep is essential to the human body. One can't function properly without REM, no drug can substitute what the dream induced state does to the body. Thus this drug similar to adderall might produce short term effects, but by no means is it healthy or even beneficial in the long run. Just my 2 cents.

I think- therefore I fuck
 

Yea, I second this as well.

I'm thinking we could differently use Provigil for substantially beneficial short term effects, but making this drug standard in use I believe will have long-term affects because you're body is literally healing and cooling down while you sleep, and while you could fence off sleep for 40+ hours or whatnot, creating a habit out of it will lead you likely crash, and if you use it long enough and you're body gets adjusted to sleeping only after 40+ hours you will develop insomnia trying to get off the drug and need it all the more.

Just theoretics though.

worklikeamachine:
The human mind is the most complex machine in the universe. Still to this day psychology is much assumed, neurology is much trial and error, and drugs are quite the same. Did we imagine to have a device capable of obtaining any information a Harvard library could (A smartphone for you slow ones) in the palm of our hands 15 years ago? Probably not. Could we perfect our brain to absorb a lot more? Probably, but it will take a hell of a lot of time, plus sleep is essential to the human body. One can't function properly without REM, no drug can substitute what the dream induced state does to the body. Thus this drug similar to adderall might produce short term effects, but by no means is it healthy or even beneficial in the long run. Just my 2 cents.
 

There is a lot, lot, lot more to being successful than being able to crank out performance on little sleep. Having incredible endurance isn't going to land you an interview or a job. And once you're at the job, it doesn't even guarantee you top performance. Take all the drugs you want, I promise they won't help you as much as you hope.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 
skylinegtr94:
DBCooper:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/wso-in-new-york-magazine

Everyone I know that takes it, keeps it on the DL so it doesn't come under the spotlight of the masses.

Ah my bad on the double thread. I didn't search provigil, but thanks for adding here nonetheless.

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/provigil-viagra-for-the-brain

Here's the other one. Good post though - thanks.

 

Choo Choo, time to bring the hype train to a halt. It is NOT all it's cracked up to be. Similar, cheaper drugs have less unpleasant side effects and stronger positive side effects (although greater 'abuse potential').

Source: I have personal experience with Provigil, I took it daily for a year in college for mild narcolepsy.

First - Provigil does nothing for your sleep, so put that 'optimal sleep' idea to bed. Provigil is an atypical stimulant, operating through the histamine pathway. It produces a feeling of alertness, like other stimulants, but does not produce the same 'speedy' high typical from amphetamines like Adderall. In my experience Provigil significantly increases sensitivity to sound and other stimuli, which is great until its not.

Second - Provigil is firmly under patent and very expensive. Customers of modest means on HMOs have no prayer of affording it. Instead their doctors will prescribe cheaper alternatives like generic Adderall.

Third - The medium term side effects of Provigil are horrible. It binds on the same receptors as histamine, effectively the same as boosting histamine production. You probably won't get a cold while you're on it, but by god will you be an irritable son of a bitch. Have thin walls? Enjoy your neighbors's conversations. That will get old fast when you're trying to get to sleep.

Now I'm all for sensible performance enhancing drugs. But Provigil is an inferior drug that only has a niche because some doctors/lawmakers are uncomfortable with the 'abuse potential' (read: fun) of existing stimulants.

 

the line of drugs you are referring are a group called "nootropics". they have been studied extensively, most notable the grandfather called "piracetam". a quick professor google search will keep you reading for days on this stuff. personally, i think it works wonders, but you constantly have to work at it (ie, working memory workouts like lumosity and brain workshop) as well to truly benefit. modafinil is nothing, and isn't even considered as a nootropic.

 

Informally all stimulants are 'nootropics'. They increase your capacity to work, study, think etc for prolonged periods of time. It's not the drug that is increasing intelligence, it's the extra effort in work, study and thought.

 

the racetam family of drugs actually do increase your capacity to store and recall data, and lend mental stamina as well. stimulants are a cheap form, and have detrimental long term effects. racetams, on the other hand, are considered "non-toxic" by the FDA, and therefore have not been found to cause any long-term damage. racetams also do not cause down regulation (tolerance). the KGB ate this up during the 70s. racetams are legit. i'm surprised it has not been discussed in length on here before. you can buy this stuff anywhere and you do not need a prescription in the states for any of them.

 

This weak ass aspirin knock-off will not give you tiger blood, goddesses, or a brain that transcends this terrestrial realm. If you kids want to solve real problems, do real drugs.

 

I ordered 100 brand name pills from another country. While doing so is technically illegal, as modafinil (provogil) is not a scheduled drug, the DEA gives no shits, and the FDA doesn't care that much.

It's very lackluster. Every once in a while some wannabe tryhard "drugnerd" will find the wikipedia article on modafinil, or see someone else's shitty blogpost, and think about how this could represent the new dawn of transhumanism.

The truth is, it ain't that great. First time I took it I had slept 8 hours the night before, and took 50mg (100mg dose is standard) at 9:00AM. At first I felt nothing for the first hour. Later I felt some physical jitters, heart palpitations and sweat. No psychosomatic (mental) effects. I studied all the same as usual that day, after three hours I wouldn't have ever known I had taken it. Except I had exceptionally bubbly/gurgly diarrhea.

Next day I took 100mg. Basically the same thing as the day before, diarrhea again, and itchy skin/sweat. I studied harder than I had before.... but not to a level where I would feel comfortable saying it wasn't placebo.

I decided to take 50mg every morning. My initial reason for taking it was due to severe fatigue and trouble waking up. I set my alarm and took a caffeine pill 30 minutes before I had to be up, and now modafinil as well. I suffered from pretty overwhelming depression and anxiety, and the illness combined with medications I took to treat it, caused my awful fatigue.

Eventually as my body got used to it the diarrhea subsided. Although it didn't really do much. This drug has LESS of an effect on your mental facilities than a strong cup of coffee. Any benefits it has are not at the forefront of your consciousness. That is to say, when you drink alchol, smoke weed, drink coffee, there is a material mental impact. Not really with modafinil.

I decided to try it for sleep deprivation, after all, that was the selling point of this drug. I had been using it for off label concentration/stimulant purposes. But it doesn't help you concentrate, and ultimately, it's not a stimulant (technically it has stimulant properties but way less than caffeine).

I took it a few times when I had only had 2 hours of sleep, or hadn't slept at all. This is where its benefits are lauded. It's, once again, hard to say if it worked. The only area modafinil has a clear medical success is in keeping cognition high in the face of sleep deprivation. This is tested in the following way: Have a set of people sleep deprived do a set of puzzles. Set of sleep deprived with placebo do a set of puzzles. Set of people with modafinil do a set of puzzles. The latter group did far better. But this is where its benefits drop off. Supposedly, when I took it after an all night study session for a final, I might have scored a little higher. But I didn't feel different, didn't feel stimulated, didn't feel "limitless." I didn't skip nights and kick ass. I wasn't an ultra human. This is literally just a drug that has high statistical significance, but a medium-low magnitude, of keeping mental cognition higher than it otherwise would be for those who are sleep deprived.

The truth is, a healthy diet, hydration, an active lifestyle, and a strict and healthy sleep schedule will be far far better for work and success than modafinil. I would only suggest modafinil to those who have narcolepsy and other medical issues, and perhaps surgeons or pilots who MUST stay up all night and continue working for extremely important reasons. And even then, the benefit of modafinil over dexedrine is complex and not without drawbacks.

I ended up getting a prescription for dexedrine instead (dexedrine is 70% of the active amphetamines in a complex mixture of drugs called adderall. It is considered more mellow and clean than the other chemicals in adderall). I only take it in the morning to help with severe fatigue and difficulty with attention. Despite having lots of dexedrine (and modafinil), and tons of work, I still make sure to get 7-8 hours of sleep a night. Lots of my peers sleep 4 hours a night and brag about it. Yet somehow I keep doing just as well as everyone around me, because I'm well rested, well fed, and hydrated.

tl;dr #yoloswag, 420blazeit

 
jjswag:
I ordered 100 brand name pills from another country. While doing so is technically illegal, as modafinil (provogil) is not a scheduled drug, the DEA gives no shits, and the FDA doesn't care that much.

It's very lackluster. Every once in a while some wannabe tryhard "drugnerd" will find the wikipedia article on modafinil, or see someone else's shitty blogpost, and think about how this could represent the new dawn of transhumanism.

The truth is, it ain't that great. First time I took it I had slept 8 hours the night before, and took 50mg (100mg dose is standard) at 9:00AM. At first I felt nothing for the first hour. Later I felt some physical jitters, heart palpitations and sweat. No psychosomatic (mental) effects. I studied all the same as usual that day, after three hours I wouldn't have ever known I had taken it. Except I had exceptionally bubbly/gurgly diarrhea.

Next day I took 100mg. Basically the same thing as the day before, diarrhea again, and itchy skin/sweat. I studied harder than I had before.... but not to a level where I would feel comfortable saying it wasn't placebo.

I decided to take 50mg every morning. My initial reason for taking it was due to severe fatigue and trouble waking up. I set my alarm and took a caffeine pill 30 minutes before I had to be up, and now modafinil as well. I suffered from pretty overwhelming depression and anxiety, and the illness combined with medications I took to treat it, caused my awful fatigue.

Eventually as my body got used to it the diarrhea subsided. Although it didn't really do much. This drug has LESS of an effect on your mental facilities than a strong cup of coffee. Any benefits it has are not at the forefront of your consciousness. That is to say, when you drink alchol, smoke weed, drink coffee, there is a material mental impact. Not really with modafinil.

I decided to try it for sleep deprivation, after all, that was the selling point of this drug. I had been using it for off label concentration/stimulant purposes. But it doesn't help you concentrate, and ultimately, it's not a stimulant (technically it has stimulant properties but way less than caffeine).

I took it a few times when I had only had 2 hours of sleep, or hadn't slept at all. This is where its benefits are lauded. It's, once again, hard to say if it worked. The only area modafinil has a clear medical success is in keeping cognition high in the face of sleep deprivation. This is tested in the following way: Have a set of people sleep deprived do a set of puzzles. Set of sleep deprived with placebo do a set of puzzles. Set of people with modafinil do a set of puzzles. The latter group did far better. But this is where its benefits drop off. Supposedly, when I took it after an all night study session for a final, I might have scored a little higher. But I didn't feel different, didn't feel stimulated, didn't feel "limitless." I didn't skip nights and kick ass. I wasn't an ultra human. This is literally just a drug that has high statistical significance, but a medium-low magnitude, of keeping mental cognition higher than it otherwise would be for those who are sleep deprived.

The truth is, a healthy diet, hydration, an active lifestyle, and a strict and healthy sleep schedule will be far far better for work and success than modafinil. I would only suggest modafinil to those who have narcolepsy and other medical issues, and perhaps surgeons or pilots who MUST stay up all night and continue working for extremely important reasons. And even then, the benefit of modafinil over dexedrine is complex and not without drawbacks.

I ended up getting a prescription for dexedrine instead (dexedrine is 70% of the active amphetamines in a complex mixture of drugs called adderall. It is considered more mellow and clean than the other chemicals in adderall). I only take it in the morning to help with severe fatigue and difficulty with attention. Despite having lots of dexedrine (and modafinil), and tons of work, I still make sure to get 7-8 hours of sleep a night. Lots of my peers sleep 4 hours a night and brag about it. Yet somehow I keep doing just as well as everyone around me, because I'm well rested, well fed, and hydrated.

tl;dr #yoloswag, 420blazeit

It's actually a Schedule IV controlled substance. You may want to keep that in mind.

Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 

I had a similar experience in college, anxiety/depression, meds making me listless, possible ADD, adderall made me feel cracked out so doc prescribed Provigil. Didn't seem to do much other than help me get out of bed, which really was huge. I tend to physically store and feel stress and anxiety with tightness starting in my right shoulder and if it gets bad enough, moves to my chest and constantly had that feeling with Provigil so had to live with it all day (though, likely would've had it anyway given the anxiety). No problem sleeping byt to get rid of that feeling I had Ativan the night away. I'm sure 420 would've helped but wasn't into smoking at that point.

I've stopped taking it since then EXCEPT when I drive back home from Los Angeles to Louisiana. I've made the trip about a total of 3 times (just times I couldn't fly, don't ask). I can't stand to stop so I wind up popping a total of 125 - 150mg (I weigh about a buck) over the 23 - 26 hour trip so I can drive non-stop. Never had a problem cognitively, clear as a bell most of the drive. Though it's a bitch to get to sleep whenever I get there, obv.

He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. Socrates
 
Best Response

Tim Ferriss wrote some interesting tidbits on Modafinil. He used it every other day to allow his body a day of recovery in between doses when learning a new language, and for no more than 8 weeks or so. Think of its effects this way. You take it, and let's say your retention and cognitive abilities improve by 25% (hypothetical figure). You learn 25% faster in the short term, then get off the drug. Despite going back to your old self, do you lose what you learned? No. So, there is a definite benefit.

Should you stay on any drug for a long term? No. Your body always tends toward it's natural equilibrium. When you flood it with a stimulant, your body will counter the effect to stabilize itself. That's commonly known as drug tolerance, which has a flip-side of drug dependency. I have known people who can't string a sentence together without a dose of Dexedrine that would kill an uninitiated person.

Furthermore, different groups of neurons have specific, localized functions. If your goal is to improve your memory neurons, then taking a drug for this purpose is like nuking a city to kill a few rebel soldiers. This is also the argument against using drugs to treat disorders.

On the frontier of research in this area are technologies that target specific neurons in the brain. Amazing results have been achieved by stimulating neurons locally, everything from stopping seizures cold, to fixing memories of Alzheimer's patients. Boosting your GPA or salary is low priority for scientists, but I'm sure someone will focus on that niche eventually.

Don't fall for bullshit, especially your own.
 

Adderall, kemosabe.

People tend to think life is a race with other people. They don't realize that every moment they spend sprinting towards the finish line is a moment they lose permanently, and a moment closer to their death.
 
erasable:
If Adderall is already used on wall street how come this doesn't happen more often.
Because adderal doesn't make you all seeing and knowing?
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

I don't think it's as far fetched as a lot of people think. I'd give it 30 years, but expanding brainpower as much as in the movie is a little far fetched.

Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions. -Niccolo Machiavelli
 
ANT:
That last scene, where he is walking out with Deniro and puts his hand over his heart and the van rear ends the NYC cab.

I was across the street. It was filmed in Philly.

I hope everyone already saw the movie...thanks ANT gosh.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

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http://ayainsight.co/ Curating the best advice and making it actionable.
 

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