I really hesitate to even bring this up, because it's such an emotionally-charged issue. But Patrick and I were discussing it this morning because of this Pat Condell video which is quickly approaching meme status:
For those who don't know, Pat Condell is a British comedian and anti-religious zealot. Think Richard Dawkins meets Jim Gaffigan. So he's not just anti-Islam (though he's clearly that), he's anti-religion, period. The video is gaining real traction among those opposed to building the mosque (the Cordoba Initiative) near Ground Zero.
We decided to bring this up today because later today the NYC Landmark Commission will be voting on whether or not to approve the demolition of the building currently on the proposed site of the mosque. A yes vote on the demolition will clear the way for the construction of the mosque.
Yesterday, the Anti-Defamation League came out against the project, citing concerns over the funding of the $100 million construction. Daniel Bear quickly disagreed with the ADL, calling out hypocrisy on the grounds of religious freedom.
For the record, Mayor Bloomberg is in favor of the project.
This is a subject that hits close to home for many on Wall Street. The WTC housed many of our brethren, including Cantor Fitzgerald, Morgan Stanley, Oppenheimer Funds, and many others. So we have a dog in this fight. The question is, what side should the Street come out on?
Does building a mosque near Ground Zero show disrespect to the victims and a capitulation to the attackers? Or does it rather show great strength and tolerance? We'd really like to know how you feel about this issue.
P.S.: political correctness can go screw itself in the ass this time.
I agree. I understand that these people have the legal right to build a mosque there, but that doesn't mean that they should. They claim that this building will bridge gaps and whatnot. As we have seen so far, it is doing quite the opposite. I also think it is incredibly arrogant and insensitive to put forward a proposal like this. Build it somewhere else.
Finally, common sense.
Is it so hard for people to understand that in certain extreme cases common sense needs to rule out over "legal rights?"
I feel that this topic will go out of control very fast, but here's my 2 cents:
I am not a great fan of religion in general, so I would like to see no mosque built there. But if that decision is taken, in sign of openness and tolerance, there should also be a synagogue, a temple and a church, in order to represent tolerance and peace between religions. I don't see why only a mosque should be built there.
Is it a lack of respect to the memory of those who died, or a sign of openness? I guess you could see it both ways, depending on how tolerant / forgiving you are. There is no right answer, since both sides are partially right. But it clearly is a hugely controversial topic.
As for the video, that is the most racist and ignorant crap I've heard in a while. I'm all for political incorrectness (I think Americans are sometimes way too PC), but this is far beyond that. Reminds me of the good old "They hate us because we have democracy" crap. There was not a single valid argument in all that he said.
Finally, since it's so full of shit, I actually disagree that we should publish the video on this forum. This idiot should not be given such an amount of attention he clearly does not deserve.
Mr. Condell is mixing up "Terrorism" with "Islam". He has got to do some research.
I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why the mosque absolutely needs to be built there. It has nothing to do with religious freedom - there are plenty of other mosques in the city.
To me, the whole situation seems avoidable and unnecessary.
ive heard it was all set up by the government? is that true???????
Dudes we already had a hissy fit over this while Edmundo was away living life to the fullest. http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/this-should-hit-home-for-some-mos…
'nuff said? Non- of are painfully PC like the the politicians and the bleeding hearts but come on now, we already vented over this.
Repeated for emphasis:
And like Anthony has said, do you really want the government deciding which religions can build places of worship and where they can build them? I'm more concerned about Big Government than a few suicidal extremists.
I didn't watch the video, so don't know anything about that.
I was very affected by 9/11. I have lived (and continue to live) 6 blocks away from ground zero for my entire life, and went to high school 7 blocks away (Stuyvesant). 9/11 was my 3rd day of freshman year. I won't get into details of the day, but suffice to say I couldn't get back into my house for a month, and my school was moved to brooklyn for 3. My neighborhood was turned into a warzone for a year. So all of this hits home to me, literally.
Which is why I throughly feel that this mosque should be allowed to be built. I haven't gone into great depths about the people building it, and if they have best intentions at heart, but I think its consensus that they aren't bad people. I firmly believe in religious freedom. I am not a religious person at all, but I believe that religion can be a good thing for other people. It is wrong how this center has polarized people, and backed the argument into a corner, which is regrettable. Yet for me, being an american means being able to make the right choice in the face of your feelings. I still think about that day with anger to those who made it, and I can remember at the time the extreme rage that it instilled in me. But its ten years later, and that has given me the time to realize that muslims are a peaceful people on the whole, with a tiny subset being extremists.
Personally I kind of don't like how a lot of America has edged in on a debate that is really within New York City only. And the fact that every person I've talked to who actually lives in New York City thinks it should definitely be built (people in finance who just moved here aside). And to someone who said there should be a church near it, uhhhhhhh there is a church literally 10 feet away from it, as well as trinity church 2 blocks away.
Look, I always make fun of americans using the term "and that's why the terrorists hate us" (When asked if I wanted cheese and chili on my fries recently, I said that line). But here it is pretty serious. If you can't see in your heart that a peaceful place of worship can be near ground zero, the terrorists really have won. Because they haven't just hijacked planes, they've hijacked the religion with the most people in the world. If you don't want it, at least view it as a necessary evil. If you don't allow it for the wrong reasons, then the terrorists already have won.
Please, pull your head out of your ass and read what you just publicly posted on the internet! You sound naive, at best.
"...and that's why the terrorists hate us?" You should be ashamed of yourself. The terrorist hate us because we aren't them and we don't subscribe to their beliefs...not because we eat cheese and chili on our fries, not because we are white, not because we are mean and intolerant to their kind. Many would argue that Americans are the most accepting people on the face of this Earth. There is nothing we can do that will make these terrorists like us or accept us and leave us alone.
If that was the case, one could argue that being religiously free and allowing this mosque to be built that we are only reinforcing the exact reasons why the terrorists hate us in the first place. They aren't tolerant and don't allow worshipers of other religions, so wouldn't we be stepping on their toes and making them even more angry by allowing religious freedom, which they are so opposed to?
Allowing them to build a mosque so close to Ground Zero is not only a slap in the face of every American but is the equivalent to pissing on the graves of the soldiers that died for the freedoms we have in this country. Do we not see the irony in being so free that we can lose control of the system that allows us to do so? People are so concerned about being politically correct that they have lost all sight of plain ole' common sense.
furiousgeorge86, you are out of your damned mind if you don't think I have a dog in this fight. I have been to NYC one time in my life for about 3 days and I have every right that you do, if not more, to speak my mind and have an opinion on this matter. If you were any sort of patriot you would recognize that Americans died on 9/11, not just New Yorkers. Much the same US soldiers place their lives on the line to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, not just the New York National Guard.
People need to wake up and realize this isn't a game with a score board. Being even doesn't keep the peace. This isn't a "we won/they won" situation, its a "we're winning/they're winning" situation...as in present tense...as in ongoing. This doesn't end until the terrorists stop and no amount of giving in will appease these fools.
Also, while the majority of Muslims may be law abiding and peaceful...the religion they follow certainly isn't. The room is starting to smell like shit because you are talking straight out of your ass.
I miss the days were people recited the Pledge of Allegiance and I miss the silence that permeated a stadium when the National Anthem was playing.
Regards
I hate terrorist as much as you do, but it's not like US is without any fault. how about pulling troops out of middle east, and stop supporting Israel so blatantly ?
From a European perspective:
While I understand that people might be offended by that Mosque, I think it should be allowed/supported nevertheless. It's a great way to show those psychos that regardless how hard they try they'll never be able to undermine the American Way and it's core values of freedom and democracy.
Once you let them influence your society/behaviour you've lost not only the battle but the entire war.
Been through airport security lately?
I read a recent article on this, and as someone of Jewish Heritage and a former NYer, I am pretty appalled. I understand the slippery slope argument that we will next ban NYC mosques and I hear the whole "let us show our tolerance of Muslims and single out the extremists" argument.
Its just that both of those arguments are ridiculous.
Just noting the various opinions on this though:
CollegeConfidential + Conservative Blog + .01 * Finance = WSO
While I fully support religious freedom, as well as freedom of ideas, I believe that this is a bit too soon. Though I understand that an overwhelming majority of those who observe the Islamic faith are peaceful, good people, the fact is that members of their faith committed a horrendous act of terrorism not a stone's throw away, and so an Islamic place of worship is imprudent on their part. Several of the prominent Muslims (from Boston.com's original article) oppose the mosque being built, calling it "insensitive" and a "misjudgement".
I would, however, support some kind of community center going up there, with some kind of emphasis on children. I think it would be great for the community, and maybe a part of the center could go towards promoting tolerance (not just towards Islam, but towards any kind of differing religion or ideology) and explaining to the kids that blind hate towards those you don't know is how devastating events such as the attacks on 9/11 come to be, and the impact hatred can have in both society at home and around the world.
Just my opinion.
+2 to Troll
This is absolutely horrible. 50 million in tax payers dollars to build a stupid ass religious spot. What happened to the separation of church and state? Since when does the government foot the bill for ANYTHING religious? I hope this turns violent. Maybe this is America's wake up call as the guy said.
Troll, you bring up some good points. The only way Islam will ever save itself is if good muslims bring down that bad ones. Why the hell should Americans have to fight radical islam? Even other European countries shouldn't have that responsibility. The people of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt should be the ones fighting and killing these extermist. Their failure to act should be taken as a sign of agression.
The world had a brief period of "radical christianity". Christians will fight, as proven by history, if pushed too far. Hopefully, Islam gets its stuff together. Building a mosque at ground zero, yeah that would be bad taste. If the nazi built a memorial to themselves at a concentration camp everybody would be freaking out. How is this even a question?
3.7 GPA and in Business school yet you compare the construction of a mosque to the Nazi's building a memorial site and don't understand why we should fight radical Islam.
While this forum has a wealth of knowledge when it comes to finance, it is abundantly clear most of you don't have any understand of geopolitics, culture, or religion.
People should really just stick to talking about Wall street and becoming excel jockey's on here.
+1 to you copia
The amount of misinformation and ignorance on these threads is absolutely staggering...
Then again having worked in finance for several years before going to grad school for international affairs this isn't completely surprising to me either
The issue of militant Islam was approached in the proper manner by the Bush administration, however, they did not have the testicular fortitude to carry out the mission to the fullest.
I can write about this issue for days, including the "europeans" with 1 banana point who's paid occupation it is to go from website to website and spread this sort of non-sense. Anyone who reads The Economist knows exactly what I mean.
The truth for those who bother to deal with history and reality (and not their myopic liberal doctrine based fantasy worlds) is that Islam needs violence and conflict to expand...and expanding it is. American liberals of all shapes and sizes do not realize that militant Islam or (as it is very accurately and picturesquely called) "Islamofascism" is not some neocon marketing prop, but the summation of more than a 1000 years of experience with an ideology which is far more cult than religion.
Thinking that getting rid of this virus, can be done with a spoonful of freedom loving and a tall glass of cultural diversity exercises is childish at best.
The fact that this subject is even a point of discussion shows how far we have devolved as a society.
Ironically, those who support this project do it from a perspective of moral and intellectual superiority.
What does a mosque have to do with 9/11 terrorists who took a religion to the extreme?... If they bought the land they should do what they want with it, if you're trying to deceive yourself otherwise, ur dealing in senseless emotions, this just shows me we are beginning to associate islam with terror, and thats wrong. The mosque and terrorists are completely uncorrelated and anyone who would take this as a "slap in the face" based on 9/11 is ignoring that gigantic fact. I also dont want to hear about how muslim countries behave, we are not those countries and we have a higher standard. If anyone wants to tear down the mosque if its built they should buy the land. Thats capitalism.
" If the nazi built a memorial to themselves at a concentration camp everybody would be freaking out."
you should stop asking yourself how this is a debate topic and start asking yourself how that analogy works, is Al Qaeda building the mosque?
p.s. Midas your post is full of absolute garbage, especially the cult part.
My issue is twofold:
1) The money to fund the construction is coming from Saudi Arabia, from which the vast majority of the attackers were from on 9/11.
2) The Imam of the mosque apparently has stated a desire to see America under Sharia law.
One has to ask himself the obvious question: why would Saudis build a mosque at ground zero, a terrorist act perpetrated by Saudis?
I thought they were all from iraq and afganistan /s
well if VirginiaTech4Ever's comments are indeed true, then I rescind my previous statements.
@ BigBucks The same funds that fund Al Qaeda also go to build mosques. Back in the day Catholics had the inquisition and at the same time were building amazing cathedrals. The catholic church and the gentry were funding both, via the church. The same is happening with the mosques and Al Qaeda. Until muslim nations officaly stand up and fight these radicals it's the same.
Wow Eddy, could you have picked a more controversial topic?
I'd rather not see a mosque, a church, a synagogue, or any other religious building near ground zero or anywhere else for that matter. Whether you're a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew, keep it to yourself. I don't care, and no one else should either.
And am I the only one who finds it absolutely insane that all 3 of the aforementioned religions have the same progenitor, and for some reason they can't get along?
/Rant
Question: do you believe in a secular state or an atheist state?
A secular state.
On intelligence scale of 1 to 10... you are a complete retard.
Sharia law is based on RELIGION. Communism, libertarian state, and socialism are based on POLITICAL THEORY. One is a bat-shit crazy religion that treats women worse than most of Americans treat their dogs. The others are theories that have been researched for many many years by many many smart people.
Wassup with good old separation of politics and religion?
In another topic, the 2007 U.S. geological survey found more than $1,000,000,000,000 worth of rich minerals in Afghanistan, from the worlds biggest reserve of gold and lithium.
Xenophanes - you are a tool
Why are they asking for sharia law is US? Deport these mofos
Bullshit Video based on nothing else but racist aspirations. First and foremost their is a big difference between Islam and Islamist (which are radicalists just like the KKK).
Here are some bullshit questions that i could have asked after WW2, is it normal to build a German Embassy in Israel. Knowing that Hitler took power in a Democratic way ( the whole german nation was behind him, and no one stopped him)
-Free Markets = A world of diversity, so if you want to sell your Mcdonald and coca cola and Tokyo, be ready to have a sushi shop next to your house even though your neighbour is allergic to sushi.
=> The moral is to try and profit from what is offered to us and not be guided like puppets by what the media presents us and the context in which it is said.
^ I think perhaps thou hast gone too far. Well, at least it wasn't very tactfull.
97% of Pakistan population are Muslims...
P.S.: I know it's a cheap shot and correlation != causation, but it still funny.
PussinBoots, that is really funny
WHOA WHOA WHOA
What the fuck???
Take it down a notch. Or ten. We're trying to have a legitimate debate here.
TROLL- YOU'VE BEEN WARNED.
P.S. ban troll please
I'd like to take a step back to the original topic of this thread.
No, and no.
I don't think that this should even be up for debate; the questions are, in my mind, erroneous. Al-Qaeda was responsible for the attack, not the entire Muslim religion. To stop the construction of this mosque for religious reasons is unconstitutional, and is an insult to what the World Trade Center represented.
I posted something about this a couple weeks ago and I was originally against it. After a little research I changed my mind. Apparently there is an existing Mosque and this is just an update/expansion. It is NEAR ground zero, but so is everything in NYC. I think their opening date (9/11) might be distasteful, but I suppose that is America. There are people who deny the Holocaust in this country. People who say 9/11 was a conspiracy.
As much as something piss me off I would rather be pissed than have them be forced away by the government.
Also, this is a special sect of Islam or something. They have believe something different. There are articles floating around the net going into this more in detail.
well said edmundo, ignorant rants have no place on this board. i agree muslims have to do more to inculcate openess and tolerance in their faith. unfortunately, they did not have the benefit of an enlightenment or reformation which led to our progress in the west. additionally, the lack of a central authority (ie vatican) allows for uneducated tribal leaders to give unqualified fatwas. but the heart of rage in parts of islamic world towards the west is centered more on oppression (mostly by their own leaders), lack of education and ignorance than anything religious.
despite all this, to say "yea i get not all muslims are terrorists BUT (insert reason)" is an extremely flimsy argument, and justifies an argument that more or less, one thinks all muslims are terrorists/stand for terrorism. there are 1.5billion muslims all over the globe, if each one was dead set on "72 virgins" we'd all be seriously f'cked. indonesia, the largest muslim country in the world, has much less of an issue w/ terrorism than some other countries, and their government is a freely elected republic. are they out to get us too?
unfortunately, throughout history, religion has and will continue to be the cause of violence, war and intolerance. islam is the most recent manifestation of this, but they haven't gone thru this era unscathed. muslims were ethnically cleansed in bosnia, and in parts of gujarat in india.
christians were shunned in this country 200 yrs ago by protestants, and 500 yrs ago christians enacted the spanish inquisition against jewsetc. etc. my point is that this stuff happens and we should be mindful of that before we make blanket statements and fall prey to the same intolerance to the radical islamists we criticize.
so let them build the mosque, hopefully it leads to some type of better understanding. if you hate it, then use your constitutional right of protest (even burn a quran) and make your opinion be known, but don't stifle the liberties our country was founded on because you don't like a particular creed.
Troll is an absolute tool at best. He did however raise an interesting point about the islamisation of Europe.
The problem with Muslims coming in Europe is that most of them come for the social benefits. Their kids end up unemployed, poor and angry, but sustained by the generous unemployment benefits that most European countries provide.
The young ones especially (50% unemployment among the youth in the French suburbs, mostly Muslim, to give an example) become an easy prey for extremists, who use religion as an argument to increase their political power. It is important to realize that religion is not the driving factor here, but poverty.
I keep my comments limited to the link below. This is not one extremist or two. This is the entire system that is at force.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38146472/ns/world_news/
Edmundo, thanks for posting this video.
Now , the opinion of a religious-educated/then atheist/now agnostic IBanker:
1) Building a mosquee near Ground Zero after 9/11 is as insulting as building a new Church or a new Synagogue: - 9/11 = a clash of different society/development levels more than religious clash. Banning the mosque brings 9/11 to a pure religious ground, which is conceptually wrong and provides no resolution measures to the current conflict. (I skip my detailed explanation) - Islam is at war with its followers even before being at war with the US and the West. Most Muslims do not agreed with Islamic extremism and they are actually the first victims of Islamic extremism: the West now rejects them (students, workers), military wars killing Muslim populations in Irak/Afgh, Islamic terrorist bombings against Muslim pops (Morocco, Egypt?,Pakistan), deadlock in Gaza strip (keeping the population living in miserable conditions). - send the bad message to Islam world that America is amalgamating Islamic terrorists with Islam messages. Of course, Islamic extremism is a reality since the 70s, but at some eras, Muslim have prooved to be more tolerant than Christians/Jews (ex: Reconquista in Iberia) - won't help "winning the hearts and minds" of future generations of terrorists - Pat Condell, if truly an anti-religious zealot (and not a simple anti-Islamic zealot), would think the same about the insult of building a Church or a Synagogue.
2) If considered as intolerant, Islam is not worse than most of other religions: - Christianity: ever heard about Inquisition (against Jews and witches...), Crusades, forced religious conversions in colonial empires? religious wars against Protestants in Europe in the 1600s? - Jews: ever heard about Gaza Strip and imposed living conditions for Muslim populations well before 9/11? ever tried to date a Jew girl when you are not Jew? - Islam: women condition, Islamic terrorism? - Evangelists (South America, USA): their messages sound quite intolerant towards no-believers ("all lost if not in our Churches", I went to their masses to know this); they are probably too narrow and too young to have degenerated in a djihad/Inquisition movement
3) Political correcteness is useful: - in the case you do not want civil crisis, correctness is probably useful in a our multi-cultural world where migrated populations are not as integrated/assimilated and have a sizeable importance
4) Terrorism is not intrinsic to Islam (it is a West concept): - Terrorism concept dates back to (at least) the ancien Greece, which is the basis of the Western world - Other terrorist episodes: nihilistic movements in Russia/Europe in the late 1800s, Ku Klux Klan in the US
5) Be careful of who is behind this move: - Saudis? Bad idea to let them do this, because they are financing Islamic terrorism and their country is really a bad-ass intolerant one.
6) So, the Ground Zero mosque: - Best option: instead of a new mosque, build a memorial that includes ALL religions and let the Islamic world know about it. - But if you insist in the mosque, build it alongside other religious facilities. - Do not let the Saudis build it, let American taxpayers fund it (better bang for buck than F-35s that won't win the "minds" of terrorists)
I work down in 7 wtc. I have enough foot traffic getting to my building and don't really need more protests then we have already.
Having grown up in a school with many many Muslim people (30%+) i think that moderate Muslims would rather side with radical Islamics than non-Muslims.
Why can't these people just go back to where they came from?
You think or do you absolutely know?
With that logic I think the 20% of the blacks I went to school would rather side with the Crips than to side with law abiding citizens. I also think the majority of whites would rather side with radical groups like the KKK than to be open minded citizens.
Hell why don't the whites, blacks, yellows and browns all go back to where they came from and leave the land to the Natives?
Well put.
It's funny because it's not a real mosque being built, rather just a painting. You guys on WSO have got to get your facts straight.
Nice to see troll living up to his name.
Also, relevant political cartoon. http://cagle.com/working/100802/margulies.jpg I'm not saying I agree with it (don't know the specifics of the proposed bill)
too much political correctness, too little common sense.
no Mosque should be allowed anywhere near ground zero
For those curious, the measure passed yesterday:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38538068/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001
http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/123195/opponents-of-mosque-near-…
NY! isnt my favorite, but this isnt going to end by a defeat in a landmark vote...
Yeah, copia you've obviously got it going on with your 3.4, dumbass. You're more qualified to comment on this why? What, you don't think we should fight radical Islam?
I'm not against Islam, but I do think Islam needs to figure out how to curb the radicals. However, as seen by most of these posts, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Until they do this the US should probably be cautious.
Please grace us with some of your ideas, instead of throwing out gay-ass banter. Same goes for you onebuck. Although I don't agree with some posters at least they actually posted something enlightening and explained their position. What's yours and why?
I am more qualified because my father was a Diplomat and I have lived in that region for most of my childhood. While I am not using my father's qualifications as a merit badge for myself I can say with full confidence that I am infinitely more qualified on speaking about this matter than you are.
Every religion has their own group of radicals, if you think terrorism is a new fight please ask the Israeli's they have been fighting terrorism for decades without success. Saudi Arabia the cradle of Islamic civilization is fighting Al-Qaeda. Malaysia another densely populated Islamic country is fighting their own home grown terrorists.
Terrorism will never be won because you will always have a group of under privileged people with a chip on their shoulders and the only way they can get the message across is through violence.
You are right I did have a 3.4 GPA but the fact you compared the building of a mosque to the Nazi's building a memorial to their acts shows you are a fucking dumbass.
If we don't let the construction of the mosque proceed, United States will be no better than the extremists you are trying to eradicate. Nevertheless this conversation is like holding a stick with shit on both ends not going to go anywhere.
The State Department, CIA, Department of Defense, etc. all employ smart people... and yet there is no consensus on what to do about radical Islam... Why? Because there is no easy solution...
To clarify this has never been a War on Terror. Only a war against terrorists who don't like the US. This is why the US really could give a shit about other terrorist organizations: Basque separatists, Chechen rebels, etc.
We see how effective "The War on Terror" is going now. We go into Afghanistan and destroy Al Qaeda training camps and topple the Taliban who were very much in support of Al Qaeda and what do we have to show for it? Nothing, Islamic fundamentalism still rapidly grows throughout most of the world. It is not only confined to Afghanistan but has spread to Iraq now (thank you President Bush), and Yemen, not to mention that it is secretly based in several European and African countries now.
So this leads to the question... Why do Islamic extremists want to blow up the US? Yea we're supposedly a nation of "infidels" but you don't see them blowing up Buddhist countries in Asia.
A lot of it has to do with the US support of corrupt Islamic regimes. Namely Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And also our support for Israel (Not going into to this too much... this is a bulk size can of worms that doesn't need to be opened here)
So if we were to withdraw our support for Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel, clearly this would appease the terrorists but the thought of negotiating to the demand of terrorists seems absolutely absurd, aside from the political consequences those decisions would bring.
The solution in short is that you have to increase the efficiency and resources devoted to US intelligence to find out where terrorists are and promptly send military forces (namely Special Forces) to destroy them. This is not a quick and easy solution by any means... and that's what the problem is... people are trying to throw around "why don't we simply do this... and why don't these geniuses do that...." it's not that simple....
What is really infuriating is that we want to fight radical Islam yet we are the number one supporters of Saudi Arabia; the number one exporter of crude and ultra extreme Wahhabi interpretation of Islam. This is much bigger than a mosque being built near WTC.
Classic! Merit badge?! Did your scout master have to sign you off? Why'd you even reference it then? Also, being the son of a US diplomat, I'm sure got you a great view of what it was like to live in that country, surrounded my marine guards and all. Really got to mingle with the people I bet. Hope you're 100% fluent in arabic, since you spent so much time there. You sound like a prick to me. Never start by refuting an argument with stupid precedence and then denying the precedence you just sited. You should probably have your dad help you next time.
In reference to my statement about the Nazi, it is called an allusion; in this case, in a made up hypothetical situation. The Nazis would never build a memorial commemorating what they did; I don't think they're that stupid. However, I was alluding to a hypothetical situation in which the Nazi would build an "I'm sorry" monument. This has never happened, but if it did, it would be a big issue. Currently, the Muslims are trying to do this; a little less extreme but you get my point. I think this effort is futile until they get rid of the extremist. My issue with the mosque is Islam is so out of control we can't be certain they won't start training extremist or have some other motive. Also, most terrorist aren't poor, they come from middle class families and do what they do because of their jihad; a part of their religious ideology.
Both of you agree that there is a problem. The issue is who is going to take care of it. Onebuck, you seem to think it is the US, why? If that's the case why let them build the mosque? Wouldn't it put more pressure on them to reform? We have allies in the Middle East, why haven't they done more? Death tolls seem to be a pretty go determinant of who is doing the work. Right now it is the Americans, Afghanis, and Iraqis. I doubt the Afghanis and Iraqis would be doing much against radical Islam if we weren't occupying their countries.
Yeah there has been terrorism for a long time. I don't think we have a discord there. However, it has rarely been used in such an extreme religious context. The "I'll kill, you unless you convert." mentality is frustrating. Pulling out of the Middle East would be a dream come true for the US, but we can't. Radical Islam has such a hold right now that they basically want convert/destroy the world.
I guess you forgot about Mumbai and the current problem China is having with Muslims. Russia is even dealing with them, Chechens are muslims. Radical Islam is a huge problem and inviting it into the US is ridiculous. Freedom of religion is great, and Islam teaches some great doctrine. However, until Middle Eastern countries figure out how to get rid of these radicals the rest of the world is going to have to deal with it.
I guess all this is a moot point now.
Bachem ma ASLAN! da Dari, Urdu wa Arabi "fluent" astum.
wait wait
Bai, mae dar Pakistan and Industan zindaey kartaue.
Excuse my urdu it is on the rough side but I am trying to work on it again! With that said I say good day sir!
edit- this post is for my friend dudeness.
I should correct myself not no Islamic extremists in Asia but Al Qaeda.
Note that Al Qaeda has been involved in areas like Madrid, Spain but that was obviously because they wanted to influence the Spanish government days before the elections to withdraw from involvement in the "War on Terror"
Why let them build the mosque? Because again, it's not Islam you're against it's radical Islam you're up against.
That is like saying because of the Army of God (a christian extremist group known for blowing up abortion clinics and attempting to kill doctors) it would be disrespectful to build a regular church next to the former site of the abortion clinic attacks.
The stance that we're against the building of the mosque shows the degrees of racism, xenophobia, and cultural ignorance that have always fueled several of our enemies initial hatred towards us.
As I was saying before, clearly we need to rethink our approach on growing radical Islam throughout the world. Bombs can kill terrorists and destroy training camps but they certainly can't stop the spread and growth of these extremist ideas across the Muslim world.
I just watched the video and thought it was pretty interesting. Plain fact is we all support this shit by our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. It ought to be a moral imperative to cut our addiction to everything coming out of that place. I could careless about "radical" Islam. I am more outraged by normal practices in that region. Basic freedoms that we enjoy in this country are not enjoyed over there.
Furthermore, Christians in this country need to stand up against the radical elements in our own midst. Westboro ( spelling?) is just as vile and radical as anything I have seen. So to are the anti abortion extremist who would like to see a womans reproductive right eliminated.
Let whats going on in the Middle East be a lesson to all. This is what happens when you have large amounts of unemployed and hopeless young people. Hitler exploited defeat and hopelessness for his rise to power just as the extremist are doing in the Middle East. The more "modern" countries in that region require their citizens to pay no tax and have heavily discounted fuel. In return they have no voice or self governance.
Am I the only one that thinks people need to get with the times? I mean this ancient vendetta shit is childish. And I am sorry, but any religion trying to conquer the world is annoying as fuck.
You would really think that the USA would get together with Russia and China and start an anti radical coalition. India also. It seems to me that any country with a large amount of religious extremists tends to be a pain in the ass. Just so fucking annoying.
72 Virgins in heaven? Could we have a more adult view of what the after life is like? Imagine if Christians started selling heaven as a place with all you can eat Pizza Hut and free PS3's to recruit kids? God, if I died and found a place with 72 virgins I would cut off my dick. Shit. Nothing like toothy BJ's for eternity.
I gotta say, I've never understood the appeal there. I'll take a pro any day.
Oh and this idea that if we just played nice the radicals would like us is bullshit. The British and the French tried that appeasement shit with Hitler and we saw what happened. The plain fact is extremists or religion fundamentalists do not like our society. We allow women to look like hookers. We are ok with Gay Pride parades. We do not dictate social values to others. This is not how they roll.
I consider Dubai to be pretty modern, I think we would all agree. Don't try kissing someone in public over there. Don't try acting flaming gay either. Don't try doing your thing and expecting service during prayer time. If that is how a modern Arab states is imagine what they think of us?
Religion has zero FUCKING place when it comes to running a state. The USA is secular and you know what, everyone is welcome to do whatever they want. It is called freedom. The second you start ruling with a religious pretense you necessarily have to restrict things which go against your religion. Imagine how free this country would be if fundamental Christian ran it. Same thing with Islam.
Well done, Copia, well done. I'm sure it's insulting. If you had more balls you'd have translated it, so I don't have to go through the hassel. I probably won't, but way to prove you can.
Anthony, I agree.
Onebuck I can see what you're saying, but how can we stop it if they will always see us as outsiders and infidels? The US will never be able to solve this problem. If we're trying to win hearts and minds, how is sending special forces in going to help? This problem needs to be solved from within and until that happens the US needs to be cautious.
I didn't insult you at all, but your insecurity really shows. I insulted your intelligence in plain English.
I'm rubber you're glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you. I'm done with you. You haven't insluted my intelligence. You haven't made one single coherent statement. You have no position. Other than you want the mosque for some vague reason that you spent some time with your dad in the Middle East.
My inferring that you insulted me with whatever you wrote, I was infact insulting you. That you even had to prove you did is gay, but I guess typical given your background.
What is my given background?
Your an ass.
The Pledge of Allegiance is still recited, and there is still silence when the National Anthem is played. Where do you get building a mosque nostalgic memories of bygone days that never went anywhere?
Its not so much that it isn't recited, but that many people feel the need to bitch about the fact it contains the phrase "under God" in it. People have lost sight of what the intention of the pledge is much the same way they are losing sight of how what is legal shouldn't always trump common sense. It shouldn't be illegal for the mosque to be built, but it should be considered so shameful that the plans would have never seen the light of day.
The same goes for the National Anthem. Yes, there are some people that find it to be a reverent moment but there isn't a single time in recent memory that I haven't witnessed males that didn't remove their hats while it was being played and/or seen many jackasses, typically younger, goofing-off and playing grab-ass during something that means a great deal to many people in this country.
The point was, I miss the days when the people living in this country were Americans, plain and simple. They weren't Mexican Americans, African Americans, etc, etc...they were American Americans. And those Americans would not have stood for something that is (or at the very least could be construed as) so disrespectful. They wouldn't have put the feelings of the world before those of our own brothers and sisters.
Regards
Well, why don't we just send them back to Irak. Along with all the Asians, Mexicans and Blacks. That would solve a lot of problems.
Seriously guys, racism in this country has a long history. Remember the Chinese Exclusion Act, Indian Wars and Jim Crow laws?
i'm muslim, born in the US and raised in the 3rd world. i'll get straight to the point:
opening a mosque on 9/11/2011 is obviously going to attract negativity and is fucking dumb move in general, no matter how well intentioned. i dont agree wth it. its obvious there is backlash, not just in nyc but on a national scope. the guys opening this thing should listen, take action and delay the opneing if they really do preach on being tolerant.
and with that being said, i think that the gov has shown extraordinary tolerance. no other country would. you should be proud of that fact and you are lucky to be so blessed. some of you may think the gov is being too naive, too pc. well, you have to take the good with the bad. bieng blessed with such freedom never came with out sacrifce. believe you me, you have it good. and you want it to stay that way.
a lot of you are angry, and i get that. the situation is shitty, its not how i would wnat it to go down.
finally, i would like to give a big 'fuck you' to any one who is naive enough to believe that islam is an intolerant, terrorist breeding religion. terrosists are not muslim. that's right, i just said that. now think about that real hard before you mash the keyboard in rage and hit the post button. terrosists are fucking lunatics. theyre not muslim, theyre fucking brain dead. get this through your fucking head - islam=/=terrorism.
the afghani taliban is fucking outrageuous. they go to war like you watch a baseball game. war is the afghani national sport and they'll kill you for water. take a sec to digest that. their state of mind is all fucked up. and you're judging an entire religion b/c of their actions.
couple of more things that'll fuck up your mind: moses (pbuh) is a prophet of islam, so is jesus christ (pbuh). both are extensively referred to in the quran. btw, jesus (pbuh) was arab.
i'm done. goodnight.
Dude, I'm glad you are getting some rest because you must be suffering from exhaustion. You were doing so well there for the first part, then your post just fell off the tracks!
Not sure what the Afghani Taliban has to do with any of this...
Saudi Arabia acknowledged for the first time that 15 of the Sept. 11 suicide hijackers were Saudi citizens...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm
No terrorists are Muslim?!?!?! Are you kidding me??
Major Nidal Malik Hasan worshipped at a mosque led by a radical imam said to be a "spiritual adviser" to three of the hijackers who attacked America on Sept 11, 2001.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521758/Fort…
ohh, here's another...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab
and another...this guys is a self-proclaimed "Muslim soldier"
Remorseless Times Square car bomber Faisal Shahzad warns: 'We will be attacking the U.S.'
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/06/22/2010-06-22_faisal_s…
...then there's good ole' al-Qaeda...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
As for the person who feels that no more than 100 Muslims celebrated 9/11 you are simply out of your mind.
"Teacher Claims He Was Fired After Complaining Muslim Pupils Called 9/11 Hijackers 'Heroes'"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/02/08/teacher-claims-fired-complainin…
And the claim that Jesus was a prophet of Islam is like me saying that "people are immortal spiritual beings who have forgotten their true nature" just because L. Ron Hubbard wrote about it in Dianetics. No body can prove any of it is true, so to try and point it out and use it as "proof" in a debate is silly. Not to mention most people would argue that Jesus wasn't a prophet of Islam which is pretty much validated by the fact that he never strapped a bomb to his chest and blew up a bus full of innocent people. But hey, I could be wrong.
I do hope that when you awake from your slumber this morning that you arrive back in reality and stop dropping all that craziness you are talking.
Regards
all those bad guys you're referring wouldn't have done what they did if they were really followers of islam. you get that, right?
Well there is a damn cultural divide, nothing else, but it can be explained.
The pledge of allegiance says "Under God" and we all understand the context. The same applies to any other person in any other culture, they understand the context. Some people read the Bible to the letter, some do not; and the Bible has some crap in it. The same for muslims, some read it with no historical understanding, and apply the crap they read to the letter.
And honestly, how do you want religious people to read their "Book"? It is not like everyone is smart, or historians, or more enlighthen, therefore my belief that religion is the problem here. If religion is considered relevant in our societal decisions, we won't go nowhere, and will have these stupid idiots trying to convert the "infidels"
to return into the topic.
I find that most people who lived in NYC most of their life do not find any issues with the Mosque while most people outside of the Big apple find it somewhat offensive to say the least.
I too find it offensive, but I may be wearing goggles since I live in New England
I just want to know specifically who is funding this project, otherwise there is no reason they shouldnt be allowed to have a mosque built there. We must all remember that some of their own were murdered in these 9/11 attacks.
If I recall they were the ones with the box cutters...right?
Regards
A lot of people were touching upon it...
Google "US Foreign Aid" to see who the top recipients of our foreign aid have been consistently over the past several years. Next if you take a look at how much in weapons we also sell those countries, you kind of get where I'm getting at now.
The United States has to look in the mirror of why it is in the situation it is in today with Islamic fundamentalists. Half the problem is that we helped fund, train, and give them modern weapons back in the 1980s. Back when the Soviet Union made the same mistake trying to invade Afghanistan in 1979, we alongside Saudi Arabia were secretly funding the "muhajideen" (Osama Bin Laden being one of them) so even though they clearly were no match for the Soviet Union, they could make use of their knowledge of the terrain and guerrilla warfare to successfully overtake them. This eventually worked, but then all of a sudden we had a bunch of Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East that still had funds, ample training, and now modern weaponry. Oh and soon after that they turned on us... oops...
There used to be someone in the Middle East who posed no threat to the US... but had a good amount of power in the region... and was known for his dislike of Islamic fundamentalists.... and we took him out... his name is Saddam Hussein. Now under the lawlessness in Iraq, the formation of Iraqi Al Qaeda has started. (They previously did not exist there despite what anyone in the Bush administration would like us to believe)
Guys, don't respond to CPH. He is hands down the least intelligent person on WSO. This is a person who lied that the invasion of Iraq was the direct result of 9/11. He also said that Saddam Hussein was a bigger threat than Hitler. He simply is impervious to facts.
In regards to the mosque, if they own the land, they can build anything short of and anti-aircraft battery there. I could not care less about Islam. It, like all religions, is man made and requires that its followers suspend disbelief and except lunacy as daily doctrine.
In regards to terrorism,; invariably, virtually all terrorist attacks will be committed by Muslims. For people who ask, "why do they hate us" the answer is simple, they are LOSERS. A great read about Osama Bin Laden is the Looming Tower. The author essentially busts the crap ass theories about the origins of terrorism by speaking from Osama's mouth. For example, Al Qaeda attacked the embassies in East Africa and the USS Cole because they felt that the USA was going to take over Somalia and that the US was behind the Rwandan genocide. I am serious, these terrorists are just heavily armed children who can not face the facts that there religious keeps them from consolidating their power and advancing. Osama always wails about America single handily keeping down muslim countries.
Not you again.
Here's a fact for you...your drivel is slowly beginning to annoy me.
I was hoping you left the forum after our last go-round. You know, the one where you would just talk about a book you read as if it was factual, then I would rebuke what you said and provide supporting facts and anecdotes for my point and then you would just say "you aren't even refuting what I said" despite me actually saying, verbatim, that I refute everything you posted.
As far as me saying that our invasion of Iraq was the direct result of 9/11...that never happened. I did, however, say that Saddam was a bigger threat than Hitler, although it was with a caveat. I said that Hitler posed no threat to us because he didn't possess the capabilities to invade the continental United States. Your response was that the WANTED to build a super missile, or something along those lines.
Go back under your bridge.
Regards
A great article from a US Army Special Forces Soldier in Iraq:
(Yes it is from the Nation, but there is no political bent whatsoever in any of this article)
He basically talks about how he witnesses the insurgency growing everyday in Iraq and how well educated Iraqis (such as the college professor he describes) grow from supporting the US, to passively supporting the insurgency, to fighting alongside the insurgency because of the disrespect and ignorance several of the US forces show in the area.
Maybe take this into consideration as you continue to blast Islam and try and wonder why insurgents think the way they do.
http://www.thenation.com/issue/december-11-2006
CPH, I am laughing ass off at your last post; you never support your arguments. Case in point, your Hussein was a larger threat than Hitler, but don't take my word for, this straight from YOUR mouth:
"es, Saddam was a threat, just because he didn't have weapons of mass destruction doesn't mean he wasn't capable of producing them, procuring them or allowing those who wish to obtain them to operate freely in his country. One might make the point that he was more of threat to the US than Hitler ever was." //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/mcchrystal-offers-his-resignation
You can go to the link to see his full post.
Where are the links to articles showing that Saddam was capable of anything that you said. According to Congress, Saddam did not have WMDs, the equipment to produce WMDs, the facilities to produce WMDs or the human capital to produce WMDs.
Here is the link the 9/11 report which states what I wrote. See adults actually back up their arguments. http://www.gpoaccess.gov//
In regards to you denying what you said about 9/11 being the cause of the Iraq war, here is your post.
"People like you drive me nuts. Do you remember 9/11? Was that Bush's fault too? Did he email the terrorist the plan he devised so he could get some Americans killed? You act like Bush was sitting around one day when some Col. came into the room and told him that we don't have enough body armor for every soldier and Bush demanded we go to war so that people could die. Bush retaliated for an unspeakable horror and should be commended."
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/yes-we-did?quicktabs_3=0
You obviously are not talking about the war in Afghanistan, which was not mentioned and is not questioned. I was talking about the war in Iraq and your lies were the direct response to my post. Notice, in my post, I actually provide links. I provided links to the military report which backed my case about inadequate body armor.
Cph, what school did you go to? Did you debate in your school? How are you capable of going about your day-to-day activities as an analyst at a private equity firm?
I am actually backing up my claim with your words and links.
And I find bridges great places to sleep under.
YOU
Let me weigh in on this topic as someone who was going to major in history, specifically WWII history.
Hitler was zero fucking threat to the USA. Operation Sea Lion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion) was called off because there was no way the Nazi's were going to be able to do an amphibious landing on the UK. If they can't cross a channel there is no way and amphibious landing is going to happen across the Atlantic.
WWII was also not about stopping the Holocaust. The USA had reports of mass killings and we had full knowledge of the concentration camps. Only thing that got us into a full war was Japan and the pact of steel. If anything the USA was more inline ideologically with the Axis powers than with the Russians.
As for Saddam being more of a threat I don't know. Hitler was no threat so I suppose Saddam wouldn't have to be that high on the list for that argument to work.
Yes, Saddam kept things in line in the Middle East. I could just imagine how history would view the United States if we openly started supporting a guy who used gas on Kurds and started 2 current wars. We would be called monsters. Instead we liberated a country that only knew fear and dictatorship. Did we fuck up, yeah, we are not perfect. But for the first time in recent history Iraq now has a voice. Most of the violence is not coming from US troops, but extremists and mobsters within the country. For a couple years now most of the civilian deaths have come from Iraqi suicide bombers or other attacks. It is not as if the US military is mowing down women and children for fun.
People can be against the wars. They can say they are no in our best interest, but 2 dictatorships have been eliminated. Things are not perfect, but only in 2010 do we expect fully functional democracies to be running like a top in 5-10 years. People should read the history of this country and take a look at how long it took us to really start acting like a free nation.
And are we really back on the body armor issue? This was discussed in detail and I think we can agree that both sides have valid arguments. More body armor = less maneuverability and higher fatigue. I posted numerous links and supporting arguments pertaining to that. Lets not crucify CPH for something I have already argued on and supported.
Yeah, using gas on Kurds was bad, but how many people did that kill? and How many people have been killed/injured/misplaced or died prematurely because of the current war? in the order of millions?
Saddam the dictator is gone? who gives a fuck, seriously. Have you ever spent time living in a third world country? people there value food/stability/clean water/electricity/health care a lot more than they value democracy... and Iraq now has a voice? really? what voice exactly are you referring to?
You think the American are the heroes, we went in and liberated those poor Iraq people, they should welcome us and thank us, right? wrong, we totally fucked them up. That's why Al Qaeda, never truly existed in Iraq, is now on the rise. do you know what's even worse than a dictatorship? a dysfunctional democracy
Anthony, I will keep this short since I am in Manhattan early tomorrow. I am not saying Hitler was that great of a threat, I am saying Saddam was NO threat to the USA.
Anthony, I did not talk about the body armor given to American marines, soldiers and sailors, I just referenced to serve as marker for those actually interested in going into the thread and reading the posts.
Eok - Sorry, must have mistaken you for someone else. We had the body armor discussion before. My apologies.
Tsong - How many people did using chemical weapons kill? Thanks for asking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait
There is the person you think America should support to keep order in the Middle East. I am sure all of the people who have suffered and have no had a voice to speak would thank America for "keeping order". Are you out of your fucking mind.
A disorderly democracy is worse than a dictatorship? Wow, thank god you were not around during the revolutionary war. I should delete and censor your comments since you obviously do not appreciate all the lives lost protecting and perfecting the freedom you so willfully disregard.
People hate America because we sell their freedom down the drain to protect our interests.
You know who gives a fuck that Saddam is gone? How about all the people he killed. How about the Kurds.
You sir are why the world hates America. You rationalize dictatorships and tell people that just because you live in a "third world" (let me correct you and call it a developing nation) you will give up your freedom for basic necessities. Please tell me outside of Baghdad how great it was for the people of Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq
Jesus dude, how about you tell me how great Hitler was because he elevated Germany out of suffering and poverty. How about you tell me how great Stalin was.
human rights? you kidding me? when you can't even travel safely within your own neighborhood, when you don't even have access to reliable clean water/food, when the whole country almost went for a 3-way civil war, what kind of fucked up human rights is this? Don't have any data right now, but I am sure life expectancy over there just took a nose dive while infant mortality skyrockted, how about you tell those people how great their life are and how much they should thank the US for it??
and talking about democracy, that's the most absurd part of the US foreign policy right now. what exactly are we trying to achieve there via democracy? local people don't appreciate it, in fact they hate the US for imposing our value/system onto them, and making their life miserable during the process. and if somehow they do adopt democracy, in a region where most of the people dislike America, to say the least, what do you expect the result will be? a pro-US government? only in your dream ! Palestinian people voted, and Hamas came to power. Iran is probably the most democratic country in the region, you think they like us? you think it enhances the US interest in the region?
So that's where we are today, not only common people's life hasn't been benefited, US is in a far worse position than it started with.
Tsong, you are right. I don't get anything you are saying. Could you possibly provide me with some links or anything to back up your fucked up opinion.
I will 100% agree that some people had a much higher quality of life in Iraq before us. That quality of life was at the expense of other people.
It is unsafe to travel the streets not because of us, because of their own homegrown terrorists. Yes, Saddam is not there is be a strong man and terrorize his citizens. I suppose the USA should help install a cruel dictator in Haiti. I mean who cares how thuggish the guy is, as long as he brings some oder.
Mussolini was a nice guy you know, he made the trains run on time. Hitler was a cool dude, totally revamped the economy. I mean really Tsong, are you listening to yourself. You are rationalizing a guy who used chemical weapons on women and children and started two wars and you are saying that the he was fine for the common man.
I read a report about spotty electricity usage in Iraq. It was in part attributed to increase in the purchase of electric consuming goods now that there is freedom to do such things and electricity is now not rationed to only Baghdad. Democracy and freedom have its pros and cons.
The USA will stand on the right side of history with this issue. Utilitarianism doesn't fly in this case.
2 When you overthrew a government and then had no ready plan to establish an alternative one, society naturally fall into chaos/lawlessness. So yes, the decrease in social safety, the rise in violence, can be blamed on the US policy. Dictatorship is bad, but you know what is even worse? no functional government !
3 The entire country is literally being divided into 3 sub-sectors, then each sector is further divided into smaller villages based on your religion/ethnicity, you think that is good for a nation wide infrastructure network? what have you been smoking?
3, Democracy and freedom means nothing if you can't even walk safely within your neighborhood and when you don't have reliable access to clean water/food/electricity/medicine/school.....
4 Not to mention that Iraq doesn't even have a working democracy. Political freedom? LOL, they are ruled by tribes now, as far as I can tell....
5 of course, you can continue to believe the US value is the only true value, we know the best, everyone else should simply just listen and learn from us, the rest of the world are populated by complete idiots, we did so much for them, we liberated them, we saved them, yet the more we "help" them, the more they hate us. There is actually a word for it: Ignorance. which is pretty much how people think of the US now days.
not to beat a dead horse, but are there any opinions on Obama's comments about the proposed mosque?
There were Muslims who died in the WTC alongside their Jewish, Christian, etc. brethren...
About the NYC Mosque (Originally Posted: 08/03/2010)
I just want to say that as a service member, Iraq veteran, and a New Yorker who was in highschool in midtown on 9/11, I am deeply offended by the Mosque being built at ground zero--but I fully support their right to build where ever they want, for what ever reason--including to offend non-muslims such as myself....
However--I also fully support anyone else's right to purchase the real estate surrounding that Mosque and build a red-light district. Why not a pornography and pork store right across the street? Call it "One-Stop Shopping for Infidels."
Lets start a donation to buy ad space and huge billboards surrounding the mosque that show animated pictures of Mohammad sucking on a pork sausage with text coming from his mouth saying "Islam is a hoax."
While we are at it, lets build a Jewish Temple and Catholic Church on each side of the mosque. To show how we welcome them as religious neighbors. I'm sure they will love the irony. Welcome to NYC bitches. Maybe Donald Trump would be interested in these ventures.
In conslusion, this is the home of the free--and that includes the freedom to have no class and to offend others; the KKK have been doing it for years with police-protected hate rallies. Our recourse is not to deny them their right, but to excercise our own right right back at them.
Just a thought.
I think this is something the WSO community should get behind--what do you think Patrick?
If you want to use the KKK and Westboro Baptist Church as your model of public discourse, be my guest.
I wouldn't advise trying that. Look at what happened to South Park. They had to censor their episode poking fun at Mohammed because of death threats.
It is pretty sad. South Park can mock Jesus non stop, we can joke about priests being gay and molesting children, but the slightest humor directed at a Islamic holy person results in death threats. All the more reason why the USA has to keep standing up against enemies of freedom.
Plain fact, not being racist, but the Middle East is pretty damn intolerant to other countries. The USA might be at war with two predominantly Muslim countries, but we still respect Mosques being built and people wearing head scarfs, etc. The same cannot be said for Europe or the Middle East.
well, they dont offend Christians, they offend catholics... they mock them nonstop... however, if you just criticize Israel you will get fired, how many veteran journalists were fired for just not "backing up" Israel, or openly supporting the Palestinians...
i am a catholic and just hate when they mock catholics and if you would do a similar joke about jewish people you would be considered anti-semite...
take for example jimmy carter, he criticized "Israel" and then was called antisemite.
Obama criticized "a little bit" Israel and the Israeli propaganda started saying he is an anti-semite so he had to send Clinton to give a speech about how the States with ALWAYS UNCONDITIONALLY SUPPORT ISRAEL... but PLEASE DONT CALL OUR PRESIDENT ANTISEMITE.
Not saying that we should live in fear. Just calling attention to the double standards when it comes to humor and satire. A dutch guy was killed because of it.
you can't solve issues by "an eye for an eye". its just impulsive and not in the interest of our US diplomatic ties. Furthermore in time where other countries are gaining economic power and political influence we have to continue as a leader. Anyways this is just my opinion but if you think that building a ad space next to it and putting offensive pictures is your opinion, thats your right, but ask yourself this question : what world are you preparing for your children ?
just wanted to add, i have a muslim background and this kind of mentality just shows me why i shouldn't work in the states
^I would be preparing a world that condemns terrorism.
If I were an (ostensibly) "peaceful" muslim, I would spend all my energy trying to distance myself from the terrorists that plague my religion. I wouldn't want to be associated with people who fly planes into buildings in the name of the same god I worship.
But instead of doing that, you, or at least many muslims, see themselves as the victim. You are not the victim - terrorist victims are the victims. So instead of complaining that people unfairly judge you, you should spend more energy preventing the conflation of “peaceful” muslims and terrorists. Stop complaining until that happens, and until you also openly and enthusiastically condemn and sincerely try to help stop the many countries that harbor terrorism and do nothing to crack down on terrorist training.
You would be a hypocrite. You'd be inciting hatred against innocent muslims, just as extremist muslims do to non-muslims.
The vast vast majority of muslims condemn terrorism and they ARE trying to distance themselves from the terrorists.
^Putting up a sign would be just like what extremist muslims do?? Think about what you just said...Putting up a sign = murder of innocent people?
And no, I have no hatred, or any dislike whatsoever, towards muslims who are truly innocent. To clarify, muslims who are truly good and peaceful people, strongly condemn radical islam, AND take part in the effort to stop their radical counterparts are fine with me. However, I challenge the notion that the VAST majority of muslims meet ALL THREE of these conditions . Muslims who are merely agnostic towards their violent counterparts do not meet this condition. I am not the least bit religious, but I must say the Christians have done a much better job or eradicated violence in the name of christ. There are a few hate groups out there, but they are few and do not plague the religion or make up nearly the proportion that radical islam does within islam. So, you day that muslims condemn terrorism, but you aren’t doing a very good job of shutting it down. Now, it’s highly difficult to stop terrorism –armies are struggling with it right now – but I think there are too many ambivalent islamic countries facilitating the survival/existence of islamic terrorists.
As far as the mosque, it inherently reminds the families' victims of 9/11 and is therefore a disrespectful slap in their face. Muslims, if they are truly respectful and understanding people, should be against the mosque out of respect for 9/11 victims. So, I think that any muslim – or anyone at all – in favor of the mosque is not “innocent” in that they support slapping 9/11 victims in the face. In sum, respectful and courteous muslims, despite their innocence in the matter, should realize this and respect the people negatively impacted by 9/11.
Why did I just waste so time trying to argue with this, uuugh.
You wasted time because there's a loophole in you're argument.
Explain (using clear logic) how building a mosque would be disrespectful to 9/11 victims.
They had 364 other days of the year they could have opened it on.
...um...well the developer just got approved to do whatever he/she wants to the building...so they could easily decide to open the mosque on a different day.
I mean its close to impossible to schedule an opening of a new building to an exact day unless you finish early and wait an X amount of days...
I'm doubting they would open it on 9/11, they can pick any day.
Oh, and as far as not doing what I proposed out of fear of another terrorist act--its seems like people don't remember the first one...
Call it a difference in culture. I call it being a bunch of f%^king animals.
It was reported multiple times that the planned opening date is 9/11.
I looked at the most recent articles from credible sources and there's nothing about a 9/11 opening date. Please post media/literature that say that.
Here's a great documentary (~59 mins) which has scenes in the beginning about 9/11 and the muslim reaction to the attacks.
"Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think" http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/inside_islam_what_a_billion_muslims...
Notice that the American people didn't blame Christianity for the Oklahoma City Bombings.
American muslims (OR ANY RELIGION) have the freedom to pick any legal property to use as a place of worship.
You are right. Lets just build a memorial for The Crusades in Saudi Arabia. Not to be disrespectful--just to remember those who served.
This is one of the dumber arguments used by the anti-mosque crowd. Is fucking Saudi Arabia now our measuring stick? Let that authoritarian hellhole do what they want. Here in America we follow the laws of man, and our laws and pluralistic ideals are quite clear on this.
FWIW, there already is a mosque at the "ground zero" site. Take a look at these pictures:
http://www.realcourage.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/45pp-b.jpg http://www.realcourage.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/45pp-a.jpg
Do you see Muslim triumphalism, or American citizens who happen to be Muslim peaceably worshiping?
It used to be tradition for Islamic invaders to destroy local places of worship and palaces and build mosques in their place, since Islam has always been an expansionist religion. I see this situation as being analogous and perhaps influenced by those actions.
Christianity did the same thing
.
For me it definitely doesn't sit well however I totally understand that the city is letting this happen... It is a bit much that theyre opening on 9-11.... remember-- "not all muslims are terrorsits, but all terrorists are muslim" former head of Israeli domestic security
I think this was done to explicitly piss people off. Of course not every Muslim is a terrorist, but Islam does have a image issue and anyone with common sense would not recommend placing this thing right in the middle of where 9/11 happened. Welcome to America though. This would never happen in Europe, yet the extremists hate us so much. Freedom means taking the good with the bad sometimes.
This is yet another case of people making a big deal out of nothing.
You know what I think is a bigger issue... the fact that after 9 years, and promises that we will rebuild and show our strength to the world, ground zero is still a giant fucking hole in the ground. This is probably very sensitive, but I think its true. Didn't we say we would rebuild? That we would show the terrorists? That we could pull together and show them that America is the greatest country in the world?
Instead, we still have a hole in the ground. Does anyone know if the project is even remotely close to completion?
Sorry, but our priorities should be to rebuild and prove that we are the best in the world. Not to bicker over some fucking house of worship built two blocks away. If people were to think the terrorists won, it would be because ground zero looks today the way it did in the fall of 01, and not because some Mosque is two blocks away.
^ construction is still going. They just completed first floor out of 110 (their plan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center
Ok so some progress has been made. The cornerstone was laid in 2004. Building did not resume until 2006. Idk, I'm from the area and have been reading about this for years and its pathetic that so much arguing went on between 2004 and 2006 over the project. To me, I cannot help but be a little ashamed whenever I go by the site (usually a few times a year) and don't see the project completed. I'm sorry, but this goes along with the 'America is a bunch of pussies' theme that has been on this board lately. Empire State Building was built in like a year and a half. Sure, the circumstances were different, but the point is the evident: We should stop being a bunch of pussies and build this shit.
They should open up a pork product and pornography store (one-stop shopping) right next to it. USA! USA!
I can see that NYC is allowing it, but I find it a little offense that the Muslim leaders of the Mosque think that it's appropriate to build it there.
However, I agree with what LIBOR said.
Wow, it took so long because of the clean up, recovering all the bodies and showing some respect. Trust me, I think having US soldiers occupying two Islamic countries for the past 9 years shows that they didn't win. Arguing with a terrorist about the definition of winning is like arguing with a retard. We could occupy the country for 50 years, but the second we leave they will celebrate their victory. Morons.
Whats their victory either? Complete isolation from the developed world. They won the wonderful prize of condemning their people and nation to a perpetual 3rd world existence. Once the oil is gone what else are they going to contribute?
Terrorists murder innocent civilians. Most of the time they are killing their own people. What a shame, I am sure all the women and children that were killed in all the market bombings were good Muslims. These radicals are just afraid of people having the right to vote, to express their opinions, women having rights, minorities having rights. I wonder how a temple or church being built in the middle of any number of Middle Eastern cities would go over.
In principle I don't see anything wrong with it, but the motivations of the people building it might be questionable.
Sorry guys, but if you aren't a native New Yorker I don't think you have the capacity to comment on this subject.
Driving down Nostrand Ave. in Brooklyn and watching the bevy of Arab shopkeepers celebrating outside on 9/11, 9/12, etc...will never leave my mind. The saddest thing was when the NYPD came to protect them from the honest appreciative members of this largely immigrant area...claiming that "they had every right to wave their flags and show their support to whatever cause they chose, as long as they weren't violent".
Watching what the city has become post-9/11 is beyond depressing. I don't want to call anybody out, but even reading some of the responses here, it is scary to see how even people who are sick to their stomach over this disgusting display are scared to say how they really feel.
Perhaps I am just deluding myself and living in a different age, when different things mattered. But I can't help but to feel sick to my stomach that people aren't outraged and revolted by this hideous spit in the face of the innocents who died, the families that are forever effected and the city which still hasn't recovered.
Guess we should focus on important things like protecting Mexican rights in Arizona...
Naa dude, I agree with you. I think it is bullshit. Common sense would tell you that it might be insensitive to build so close to where 9/11 happened. This is obviously a direct insult.
Welcome to the USA though. It makes me sick to think of people celebrating what happened and if I was in attendance I would spit on them, but that is a fundamental part of the USA. Protecting popular speech is easy, it is the unpopular speech which is tough.
I'll say this. Right after 9/11 the nation was pretty galvanized and supportive of attacking anything Islamic. If I had to offer some advice to the ME I would tell them to start speaking and standing up to the radicals. Unlike the terrorist who blow up people with homemade crap the USA has the will and the means to take care of the problem once and for all.
People care too much about being politically correct. The location and opening date of this Mosque are not a coincidence. At best this is in poor taste. It is inflammatory and disrespectful. I wouldn't put up a monument to Truman in Hiroshima. The stupid thing is, by building this Mosque, the otherwise law abiding and religious Muslims involved are now hated by more people. If they built it 4 blocks away no one would say anything and they would have avoided ANOTHER image crisis. There is nothing to gain for anyone from this. If I were Muslim I don't know if I'd risk being assaulted by nutjobs to pray at the ground zero Mosque instead of any other one in the city.
LOL
I deleted wingman12's post because I do not want this thread to boil down into an insult or racist thread. My 1st instincts were to lock it simply because I thought insults would be hurled rather quickly. I'll be monitoring it closely though as I am sure the other mods are.
Lets keep it clean and keep it factually based.
"Hilarious!
Yeah the people who brought algebra and soap to medieval Europe are pretty dumb and smelly.
Glad this hasn't turned into a bunch of name calling and unsubstantiated slurs. LMAO"
(Damnit Anthony! This reply would have been a lot funnier if you had left it up)
I just read the article in full and found it really interesting how Bloomberg is supporting this while all those Islamic leaders are saying it is in bad taste.
I think we should direct our rage towards Bloomberg and the other people who pushed this forward. Seems to me that most sensible people think this is in bad taste. Especially the opening date.
It wasn't Bloomberg's idea to put a Mosque there. I wish he had the balls to say something but then he'd be called a racist.
Yeah Victor, I feel strongly about the subject, but no need for name calling. My friend served 2 tours in Iraq and met with plenty of nice and courteous people. I am sure most people just want to go about their life. It is the immense hopelessness, poverty and unemployment which drives these people to this extremist shit. Just as those same issues drive inner city youth towards gangs and drugs in the USA.
Christianity was pretty damn violent and extreme back in the day. I just hope that Islam mellows out like the Christians did.
Interesting article
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/14/world/americas/14iht-pew.html
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/19834/tackling_the_real…
Is it a good idea or in good taste? I honestly don't know. It's probably in better taste than the woman who decided to film an abortion as an art project- and was also protected by the first amendment. It's probably not in as good taste as going with a more subdued building or building it several blocks away.
That said, this is frigging New York City, one of the most multicultural places on earth. If we can't handle a mosque, we've got some pretty big issues. I'm a follower of a different Western religion than Islam and I'm not a huge fan of mosque building and Muslim outreach, but this is America, we learn to live-and-let-live, the WTC was about terrorism and not Islam, and if someone wants to build a Mosque or any religious building two blocks from the WTC, they should be allowed to.
If we can't let a private mosque into lower Manhattan (I am assuming this mosque is not associated with some of the fringe groups in NYC that are out demonstrating and chanting anti-American slogans), how can we leave images of Moses or crosses on public property? More religious freedom for Muslims= more religious freedom for everyone.
Pardon my ignorance (I have not read any articles about this Mosque), but is it possible that this is a move by the Muslim-American community to show friendship and integration? As in, they're seeking an image of being apart of NYC/America, and looking to wipe out the evil image created 10 years before?
If this is the case, they should have communicated this strongly. If this isn't the case, middle finger comin' that-a-way.
I retract my opposition. I poked around and did some reading. Apparently this is a rebuild or expansion on an existing mosque already there. I don't know if the 9/11/2010 date is true or not, if so it is in bad taste, but this isn't a new structure or anything.
Edited
^ Do you even know what's going on?
I think the jump-to-conclusions mat was brought out a little early here.
Why was my post edited ? I just called LIBOR a fag, big deal
Wow, eloquent.
Thanks to the mod that deleted that. I don't want people to think I'm a homosexual AND the leader of a terrorist sleeper cell
Illini, you're delusional, you have no idea how bloodthirsty Muslims are. Maybe you want to see women walking around in burqas in the US too, but I don't.
If a woman genuinely wants to wear a burka, we shouldn't stop her. (If she is getting coerced by her family and is a grown adult, that is another story.)
Some people think allowing guns into DC is offensive. Other people think that Fox should have its broadcasting licenses revoked or that BP should be nationalized without due process. On the other side, some people believe that a mosque in lower Manhattan is offensive.
We live in a big country and a big city. We're bound to be offended by some things- and there's a good chance that either we or people we respect might cause some offense to others. The way I see it, a Muslim center in lower manhattan is a huge opportunity to hand out Bible tracts to people who might be going back to other countries where it might be difficult to legally evangelize. When you have freedom of religion, the ultimate winner isn't a specific religion- rather, the truth and better ideas are the winners.
Yes, it's politically tone-deaf. Worse, they have no idea how to communicate this to typical Americans."We're moderate Muslims. Our goal is to make sure people understand that Islam disavows anything that had to do with September 11th. This is our way of reaching out to the community."
Ok, I decided to not be lazy, and look into the intentions of the place:
"The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”
“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61." Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html
So, at least the intentions are peaceful. However, some self-awareness might be lacking.
I edited your post 2007. Disagree with someone you want, but blatant name calling is not going to add to this argument.
I don't want women to be FORCED to wear burka's. If they want to wear it then fine by me.
This is a very good article that came out few months back wondering why this new structure would be any different than other 'offending' existing structures and where to draw the line. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/nyregion/28nyc.html Obviously NYT is very liberal, but it's not full of air.
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