The Value of Undergraduate Business School
Business Week just released its annual Best Undergraduate Business School rankings and it got me thinking about the value of said degree to the average aspiring monkey. Surely we know that finance, accounting, math and medieval interior design are the typical banking majors, but what about the backbone of all business?... business.
As has been mentioned ad nauseam on these boards, undergraduate business degrees may be one of the less likely paths to Wall Street. In fact, Wharton is the only undergrad b-school represented in the upper crust of these rankings, as far as traditional Wall Street targets go.
This begs the oft debated question: Should you major in business if you are considering a career on Wall Street? A question which is still tough to answer. That is why I am asking you guys to chime in with your thoughts once more.
Hopefully, such a debate can be of use to the multitudes of micro monkeys debating how best to embark upon their journey to Wall Street. I'm also curious as to what you guys think of some of the programs which ranked highly and their validity in the eyes of the industry recruiting machine. More importantly, it would be great to hear about guys/girls from some of these schools whose academic chops helped them climb the ladder once they did arrive on The Street. Naturally, if there are some academic halls which deserve layers of monkey shit...get your fling on.
Just to get us started, let me throw out seven schools out of the Top 15 and ask:
Would you recommend an incoming freshman any of the following diplomas, if they hope to make it to Wall Street? Why or Why not?
The (Maybe) M7
1) Notre Dame, Mendoza
2) Virginia, McIntire
3) Emory, Goizueta
4) Villanova
5) UNC, Chappel Hill
6) Brigham Young, Marriott
7) Richmond, Robins
Boston College over Richmond, BYU, Nova, Emory and ND any day.
I've seen BC kids around everywhere. I've only ever seen one Emory kid in IBD. Ever.
Pretty sure our undergraduate class placed more FT Analysts in this year's class at Lazard than any other school, including Harvard and Wharton.
tons of BC kids in DCM/ECM roles
Notre Dame and Emory ahead of Wharton, MIT, and Georgetown? An undergrad business degree is still a degree from the school you went to, and the word "business" doesn't completely replace the name at the top of the diploma.
I don't think the author was attempting to rank from the TOP.... he was ranking the middling undergrad business programs that are NOT connected to a traditional Ivy/target.
What to start with ...
I go to Emory and am in Goizueta Business School as an undergrad, concentration in finance, also doing a second major in the college in economics. Of the list you gave, I'd take Emory or UVA (saw some UVA kids at a Jeff interview who seemed to be getting really good OCR).
Philosophically, I'm against majoring in business as an undergrad and don't love the fact that I am graduating with a BBA (see it as being in a similar vain as a technical degree). I strongly considered not joining the business school program for this reason. If I had my way, I would major in English or Philosophy and Econ or some similar combination at a liberal arts college, work in banking, then return to professional school either for a JD or MBA.
Unfortunately, the world doesn't work this way anymore and is going a different direction – undergraduate business degrees are becoming more desirable for undergraduates.
My opinion about whether or not you should sell your soul – give up a liberal arts education to make 100K+ out of school – depends on your institution. At Emory I think it is the right decision if you want to do banking, the BBA program is the strongest undergraduate program in the university. If I were at MIT – not claiming to have had that opportunity – I would probably choose Econ over Sloan.
and just to address this dubious comment:
there are Emory kids at every major bank on the street, where do you work dude? Right now there are and will be analysts at: UBS, HSBC, one at Goldman, Morgan Stanley, 6 at Lazard, CS, Barcap, plus the MM/Mid cap BMO, RBC, Jeff, Wells, Lazard MM.Top BB. Saw one Emory kid at Citi. Not to say it's not a good school, just saying I'd take UVA by far out of that list of schools, on a recruiting basis.
Nothing to do with whether Emory is a good school or not – it's an odd comment/observation as there are a considerable amount of Emory alum on Wall Street. The only bank that I cannot verify has an Emory guy/girl off the top of my head is DB.
Not to sound rude, but how did you get a star as un undergrad still in school?
It's a valid question: I sent WSO my offer letter.
why is everyone mentally handicapped and realized that these are for schools of BUSINESS which the ivies do not have, not the 'middle tier' schools.
Thats what I was thinking...
When Businessweek made these rankings they started with schools that had well, school of business...so that limits the population a bit. Businessweek, foolishly, also assumed that there are jobs outside of IB in NYC. With that said when you step back and look at these schools nationally across industries the ranking makes some sense. Would you go to Wharton over Texas if you wanted to work for Exxon. Similarly, if you wanted to work for Target would you pick Stern or Notre Dame?
I wouldn't got to BYU is they paid me. But that's more of a personal issue. UVA, UNC, Notre Dame, Emory all give you a pretty decent shot. When I was looking for FT and SA gigs, I never met anyone from U of Richmond anywhere.
It's more about who you know, than what you know. My college is considered a non-target, unless you want to work at Northwestern Mutual, but I still have hope, even if I decide not to transfer and I've noticed something about colleges that are within close proximity to NYC. One of my finance teachers was an MD at a BB and still has connections in the industry, and by talking to another professor, I've learned about openings at UBS, although that's irrelevant for me now, because I'm still a freshmen. The point is that when you are in such close proximity to NYC all your professors are either retired from the industry and still hopefully have connections, or happen to know someone by coincidence. If you are target material at a non-target, professors will notice, and if you have a good sense of humor and pretend to like the same sports teams as they do, they will find you a decent job when you graduate.
Not even. Dowling College. I wouldn't be surprised if you've never heard of it, but they essentially offered me a full scholarship, so it's a good choice for now.
I'm starting to question the value of business school, at both the undergraduate and graduate level. Here are some articles that talk about the alternatives and problems with business school:
http://www.businessinsider.com/967-of-the-time-i-spent-at-business-scho… http://www.squidoo.com/Alternative-MBA http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/06/28/mba/ http://infochachkie.com/mba/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/06/the-management-myth…
Now, I'm not saying no one should go to business school, nor am I saying no one should get an MBA. I guess, I just question the usefulness of business school for training people how to think and how to compete in the business world. Maybe sitting around, listening to professors who've often never worked in the real world, talking about esoteric theories in management, finance, marketing, and strategy, has a large opportunity cost? Not to mention, business seems like sports in that you can't just learn it from reading/thinking about it, you actually need to get out there and do it. It seems like a non-trivial number of business people say that business school was a waste of time. Furthermore, a huge number of successful people didn't even go to business school. I'm starting to think students would do better by choosing majors like math, stats, computer science, physics, philosophy, engineering, and economics. I suspect a lot of these majors train you better mentally/analytically. So, if you're going to major in business, why not double major in one of these fields? Or, maybe even pick two majors from that list and go get some real world business experience like trading your own portfolio, starting your own business, P2P lending, consulting, volunteering, or internships? I suspect you'd be smarter and more well-rounded in the end, since everyone seems to agree they learn more in the first month on the job than they did in all of business school. Anyway, just my two cents...
The role of an MBA is entirely different from the role of an undergraduate business degree. People get an MBA to transition to another career or to take a break for two years and rejoin the workforce. If you don't have a business background, the MBA will provide you with a solid foundation. Contrary to your statement, many schools have professors that have actually worked in the real world, either as consultants or in the trenches. You learn as much as you're willing to put into it.
If you're not trying to switch careers and you can continue getting promotions and moving up the ladder wherever you are or in your chosen field then an MBA is less useful to you. If you are trying to switch careers, trying to do so without an MBA is incredibly difficult. I know a few people that decided to try to make a career switch without an MBA and have failed miserably. They want to be on Wall Street and it's probably not going to happen.
If I could go back, I def would not have studied business. Would have done like a double major in History and Physics (2 areas I'm interested in).
ND places very well into many of the BB banks, though they do have a Chicago focus.
Additionally, they place amazingly into Big 4 and F500 roles, which while they aren't the focus of this forum are considered highly in the kind of survey linked.
What criteria makes you an undergraduate business school? Places like MIT have finance majors, but they don't qualify for an undergrad program?
Sloan has an undergraduate program.
If I could go back I'd major in some form of engineering and minor in math.
Coming from someone who's currently doing undergrad at a business school, I definitely regret it. I mean, yes, I enjoy some of the finance classes I'm taking, but it's pointless. My school's main pitch was that I would get a more real-world education, but most of the finance classes I'm taking have no real world application for me (ex: portfolio theory).
I mean, if you want to do big four accounting, that's another story. But for banking or S&T, my business focus hasn't benefited me at all. Learned 10x more at my internships. Bottom line-study what you want, and go to whatever school gives you the best combination of recruiting opportunities and a fun time. Don't overlook the fun part.
Maybe you could chime in with how much you learned via self-study and trading your own portfolio (in comparison to the classroom)?
Hmm.. where to begin ha. I guess I'll start by saying that my entry level accounting classes absolutely were helpful- I don't think I'd have the motivation to learn that on my own. But there are so many things skipped in academic finance-it's terrible. For example, you learn how to do a DCF, if given the FCFs. But here are some of the things they don't go over (which I figured out in my own investing):
-why beta is a shitty measure of risk -how to actually forecast out operating results -how to analyze a company's competitive position to better forecast out FCFs (do they have a moat? Are margins stable? etc.) -problems with B.S. pricing -we learn how to build optimal portfolios, but only spent 20 minutes on the shortcomings of MPT..really?
I could go on. I'm not saying that I expected to become a good investor out of undergrad business school, but academic finance won't even address so many things that it's useless. The stuff you actually need from the curriculum is easily learned on your own. Just my $.02
The universities and colleges listed are all fine institutions. That being said, I feel that the "Undergraduate Business Degree" (while a fine degree in its own right) may be a little repressive to undergraduate students in obtaining... say, an abundance of knowledge in different areas of science and culture. Although, my feelings on higher education may differ with some in that I don't see it as a means to obtaining a career in banking; but instead as a way of exploring new subjects and exchanging ideas with different minds.
My personal opinion on the matter is to study subjects that are intriguing and challenging to the mind, which touch on new ideas and bring on a greater perspective and understanding of the world around us. If an undergraduate business degree is what you REALLY want, more power to you. But don't simply restrict yourself to just that... explore different departments on campus: art, literature, mathematics, physics, chemistry, engineering, economics, foreign languages, etc. Just my two cents.
The thing about Emory is, if you want to do banking, it is in your best interest to go to Goizueta as an undergrad – they have separate resources unavailable to you in the college. You can do it out of the college, but it is much more difficult. ~90% (Source: complete fucking guess, based on experience) of the applicant pool during interviews are Goizueta kids who all know each other. It's sadly not about what you learn, you can pick up the WSO guide or BIWS guide and be good during interviews, also, they don't fuck with you as much regarding technicals if you majored in a non business discipline and don't have experience. It is about the way the school is set up – your chances are greater if you are in Goizueta, they have great networking sessions in NY, a separate career center, resume workshops and other opportunities that are exclusive to the b school.
They should really have subset rankings for these business schools
In terms of investment banking I think it's --
with very little wiggle room (for schools that actually have a 'real' UG business school)
Schools like Emory and Notre Dame have more of a focus in churning out well-rounded students on the F500 upper-management track. Some people on this forum may have disdain for non-finance or consulting roles but that's the way the world works.
I can only speak about Emory definitively but the curriculum is like you said, very managerial, however, the dominate track is IBD. Very few people have a F500 focus. The other camps are consulting and accounting.
That might be the case, I'm just saying in my experience I haven't seen many.
I'd agree with earlier posters that I'd take BC, and like I said, UVA.
to be honest I've met very few Emory people at the analyst level in NYC. I bet it would be different for Charlotte/Atlanta though
Analysts off the top of my head:
If I had to go to one on this list it would be UVA. However, I decided to study what I'm most interested in. I was still able to take the key business school classes I needed, and the more interesting b-school classes like strategy and international business. I avoided the more irrelevant or boring classes and took classes in history, political economy/science, and econ. Not being a business major has actually served me well, as pretty much everyone from my undergrad trying to get into finance is coming from undergrad b-school. Interviewers ate up the "i'm trying to build a more well rounded academic experience that will give me a broader perspective." I feel like people went easier on me on technicals too, and were more impressed when I did know them.
The rankings are misleading because people try to take information from them that doesn't exist.
I'm graduating from Villanova in May, and although I can honestly say the Sales and Trading gig I got was a product of doing well at Villanova, there is no way a Villanova business undergrad has better job opportunities than an econ major at Harvard. But like someone previously said, lots of those target schools for banks don't have undergraduate business schools, which is the first reason why the rankings are misleading.
The second is because people look at these rankings and think they are the "working in the front office at a BB bank on wall street rankings," but this couldn't be any less true. If you look at the top recruiters for Notre Dame and Villanova, they are big four accounting firms. That is why their average salary first year out is so much lower than say MIT or Wharton. The rankings address the academic quality of the school, and the ability to place students in the business world, but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to be an Ibanker for Goldman.
Statistics don't lie, the schools listed in the top ten are their because of their high placement, their views from the eyes of recruiters, and the current success from past students, but the rankings obviously are misleading because lots of schools that place kids aren't include because they don't have undergraduate business schools, and because the whole short sited attitude of people that the only decent jobs on wall street are in ibanking or sales and trading, which even though I will be working in, don't believe to be the case.
I'll be starting at Barcap as an analyst in July from a non-target, and I've heard a lot of the guys in the business school aren't even getting super days. I'm Computer Engineering/Economics minor with a 3.4, could have been better, but I did have some great internships. If I had to go back and do it again, I'd honestly go the same academic route and simply study harder. A lot of the guys in the interviews liked my engineering background but left it up to me to explain why I thought it was important. Guess they liked my answers, but who knows, they could have just been bullshitting me (more likely).
Overall I'm pretty happy with the CompEng/Econ combo though. Gives me a lot to talk about.
I have an undergrad BBA degree from Michigan, and I can tell you that the OCR is extremely strong. All of the BB and quite a few other big financial institutions come for internship hiring, and many of the same firms return for full time recruiting in the fall. The school most definitely has a finance tilt, as evidenced by their class graduate employment profile (50% of grads going into finance, half of which are going in to IB). Then 20% to marketing and consulting, again at well known firms such as MBB, Accenture, F500 etc.
To me, the difference is that I still got a top notch education, but I wanted a school that I could follow from a sports perspective.
As to the point above, I think that most classes are focused more on the theory. In order to get the experience, you either trade your own portfolio, join the investment club (Michigan had several, including one that managed a significant amount and placed members across the Street), or intern. Just going to class is the baseline for the college experience, it isn't what defines it.
Bottom line: If you want to go into IB or ST, do not go to U of R. It's so small that there are very few alumni on the Street, and there is little to no OCR. Best places you could go would be Stifel, Cowen, or KBW. On the other hand, I hear good things if you want to do Big 4 so I can see why it made the list.
Not true. Over the last 3-5 years we have placed a lot of kids on wall street. Not Richmond, not Atlanta, not Baltimore...Wall Street. We have more than 10 alumni at Barlcays, Citi, JP Morgan, Goldman. And lots at other BB. Yes we're really good at placing accounting students but just as good as finance. It's small so we have smaller class sizes and actually know our professors and they know us too. We learn the big picture and technical stuff too. We can go toe-to-toe with any Ivy Leaguer. Only difference is they're full of themselves because they have the pedigree. Lastly, since Richmond is a non-target all the kids have the fire in their stomach and drive to succeed. That's not something that you can teach at an Ivy League school where instead you are gift-wrapped an opportunity to work at Goldman.
Moral of the story: URichmond is a school for retarded fucks. Ivy league kids are given greater opportunities because they are simply smarter and more valuable than kids from non-target schools. A kid from Richmond=/= kid from ivy. You, coming from Richmond, are an inferior "species" that people shit on. Now go clean my bathroom floor, and if you're lucky I'll let you cook me lunch
I love how non-targets seem to think that getting a job at GS takes no effort from a target. This is completely false. The people I know from my HYPSW who are at Goldman/MS are some of the smartest, most hard-working people I've ever met who all graduated at least cum laude, if not magna or summa. You need to rethink things if you think that someone from a random target is qualified to get a job there over someone who graduate summa in Econ from HYPSW just because the non-target "has the drive" the supposedly Ivy leaguers don't have.
Bottom line is, these jobs are hard to get from any school, and you definitely don't need to be a business or finance major to be qualified for them. Just go to the best undergrad you can, regardless of whether or not they teach business.
Guys, this list is disguised......You need to sort by median Salary to see the real ranking. Cash is king as always.
I'd recommend UMich if it was on the list, from a recruiting perspective (from what I know about the school). But given the choice set, it can be done from Emory and UVA – I'd personally go to UVA over Emory, just b/c I like the school. I have a non traditional backgroup, which is to say, I did not apply to a lot of these school out of high school. I also like UNC as a school, but am not as confident in their track record in getting people in NYC positions.
Business fucking blows. Only do it if you cannot handle making slightly less cash. Try having a conversation with someone who talks nothing but industry. You want to puke.
Go to an ivy and study anything, much better life trajectory. Honestly, Harvard BA in physical fitness > Ross 4.0 double major in Econ and Physics.
Just out of curiosity, what did you major in?
Typical WSO discussion.
Anyway, I think ugrad b-school is valuable for typical business careers outside of finance. Job postings on OCR for say big 4 operations consulting or marketing for a F1000 are almost always limited to b-school students. Obviously, IB is different. I think its because of the training that bulge brackets provide fo incoming analyst classes. The training pipeline is comprehensive enough so that it really doesn't matter if they hire liberal arts grads, and you are expected to get an MBA after your analyst stint anyway.
Should you major in business if you are considering a career on wallstreet? I would say that what matters more is what school you go to (targets over semi-target b-schools), your grades (+3.5 GPA), and the ability to demonstrate an interest in finance (internships and finance clubs). But you should major in business if you want a business related career outside of wallstreet finance.
With respect to bweek rankings, they're obviously dogshit. You're smoking dope if you think that there is a meaningful difference in recruiting between emory/uva/notre dame/whatever.
There are some BC trolls here.
You're assuming we're trolls just because we bring it into the mix? Obviously I'm biased since I go to BC, but the undergraduate business school is absolutely great if you want to go to IBD, ST or Accounting. The OCR is phenomenal and the alumni love coming back and recruiting. Obviously there are better schools out there for being recruited, I was simply saying that i would have taken BC over most of those schools, especially since it's in a major city (not in the middle of nowhere like other schools) and the athletics are good.
The one and only issue I have with the undergrad business school is our building. It fucking blows. I've been to Nova, Georgetown and UVa and they all have state of the art buildings, classrooms, study / group meeting rooms and a Dell computer lab / trading floor. If BC had that I think it would be a significantly better experience since life would be much more convenient for the students
A lot of you are missing the point. If you're deciding on a school with the goal of investment banking, a top UG business school is better than a comparable liberal arts school. Going to somewhere like UVA McIntyre instead of Swarthmore is good for your chances on Wall Street. Obviously, UVA isn't as good as a liberal arts major at Harvard. However, if you are outside of the top 20 schools in the country, being a business major will help you.
I go to a super non-target and networked my way in to a HF. So its all about who you know. Degrees don't mean shit on the street. Not for IB/HF/PE. I can't speak for VC. However, I do major in math and take biz courses just to get a few easy A's here and there. So I see this thread as pointless to a certain degree. If you like to be like everybody else, then yes pick a school with a good biz program, etc. Or stand apart from the crowd and do your own thing and get noticed. It's all about you, not the school.
I would say this is absolutely true. Although someone from a target might have an easier time preparing, getting into the door, etc it doesn't mean that you can't get the same position from a no name school. If you know someone you can get in. If not then do it YOURSELF. If you want something bad enough go and get it. Period.
Of course being in the "right" school can make the process ridiculously easier, however, it is easier to not rely on the norm and make yourself stand out. But that is, of course, a personal preference, as well as a nod as to how bad you really want it. There are many ways to look at this situation though.
I go to onE of the seven schools mentioned, and I regret it. I'm now majoring in accounting but I wish I chose something like civil engineering or ba Econ, just out of my personal preference. I mean, I bought a textbook just for myself to study more about m&a, so why am I majoring in business if I can do a lot of it on my own? But then im just a student so I don't know how classes will help me later. And I wasn't thinking about IB and wanted to be an accountant back then. Now that I changed my mind, I want to transfer to target schools, but it's hard and I might as well stay and work my ass off. Besides, my school has a good number of people breaking into wall street anyway. Now, don't some target schools have programs like financial economics? As far as I remember, Columbia has it.
Yea they do, it was introduced in the past year or two.
Well, the thing is, some of the best business schools don't have undergraduate degrees. Such as Booth, which is only graduate school only.
I don't even go to BC and I would go to UVA first, then BC over any schools in that list.
This is like picking a team in elementary school and only the fat kids are left. It is not possible to truely judge this topic because the best places to learn in the country for the most part don't have undergrad b-schools. You can "major" in say finance but it isnt from a b-school. The artilce and the subsequent rankings must be taken with a generous amount of salt.
I majored in finance for UG, MS and MBA. Please kill me.
I dream of going to school for history and philosophy :(.
Coming from Canada, the way American BB's typically hire non-business school undergrad students for investment banking seems ass-backwards.
Above the 49th parallel, it's almost impossible to get into investment banking without an undergrad business degree.
I think one thing you miss when you start throwing around recruiting numbers at some of the mentioned schools with business programs is that in many cases the business degree is not the most important factor. If you're going to be a Jefferson Scholar at UVA, Morehead scholar at UNC, (or similar at the other schools), you'll be loved by the recruiting machine whether or not you're a business major, and probably be successful up the food chain. And the success of those selective groups can skew the appearance of recruiting for a school or business program, because Goldman Sachs et al aren't really rolling up to the undergraduate business program and opening their doors to everyone.
The numbers are separate for the business school, that is, Mcintire numbers are different than UVA undergraduate numbers. Again, I am not a fan of majoring in business as an undergraduate, but for some of these schools – Emory for one – it does give you a leg up for banking and probably accounting, actually both of the people who went to Bain this year are from Goizueta. There also is a self selection process: for example, many of the top Econ people – average first round GPA ~3.6 – leave for Goizueta after their senior year. The top students likely would have landed jobs whether in the college or in the b school, but b/c a lot, really most, of them leave, the points go to the b school rather than the college.
What about UT McCombs? Is this whole thread talking about just NYC IBD placement?
off topic - Do any of you know McCombs alumni on the street?
I've heard they do great in Texas, know a former nat res guy who went to grad school there.
BComs from UToronto and Business students from McMaster make it to BBs on Bay Street (Toronto), so this doesnt apply to Canada.
I'm surprised that MIT ranks so low, to be honest. The MBA program consistently ranks in the top 5 and the undergraduate program has access to all of the same classes. Getting an MBA is almost completely redundant (from a learning perspective) for any undergraduate at Sloan. It just surprises me that recruiters aren't aware of this.
Ivy League people (except maybe the science and math majors) aren't necessarily smarter than everyone else, they just became ambitious at a younger age than everyone else.
10 alumni on Wall Street? Wow cool guy! University of Richmond, give me a break. Should have traveled about an hour to Charlottesville and went to UVA. The only reason anyone has heard of the school is because of its somewhat decent basketball program.
Has no one commented on the fact that the BusinessWeek ratings are always ridiculous compared to all other sources?
US News Ranking or nothing.
Wharton or another Ivy is definitely your best bet if you want to go into banking. I'm not sure how the other business programs on the list work, but to get into McIntire, you have to apply after your second year. If you go to UVa to study business, and get rejected from the Commerce school, that's just really unfortunate. Wharton has the best training program for undergrads interested in banking (in my opinion), and you get in as soon as you apply to the school. Of course, most of the Ivy's are targets for all the BBs so you can't go wrong.
I've seen kids on the Street from all the other schools listed, but never Richmond.
Yeah, US News > others.
Businessweek news is not legit. The ranking is based on the satisfaction of the students not on the quality of education. It everything is ranked based on starting salaries and companies reviews. It would be Wharton > Sloan> Stern>Haas>ROSS.
US NEWS >> Businessweek
1) Notre Dame, Mendoza
2) Virginia, McIntire
3) Emory, Goizueta
4) Villanova
5) UNC, Chappel Hill
6) Brigham Young, Marriott
7) Richmond, Robins
These schools aren't well represented on wall street at all. Just look at their alumni network for christsake. Why the hell would businessweek make the most ridiculous ranking ever?
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