Weekend Wars: The World vs. Gadaffi

In order to get you guys going in my desired direction of thought, kindly engage in the following bit of neoclassical musical mirror gazing and introspection:



With that having been sung, let's address an issue which will have a huge affect on us tomorrow...a year...and a decade from now. Accompanied by the wise warnings of the head of the U.S. Armed Forces,let's stumble ahead...

The self indulgent mass that is us, has grown accustomed to appeasement. We have learned to accept the laid down arms and ambitions of foreign leaders as a testament of our righteousness...but...What about the perfect storm? What about the combination of self indulgence and unintended retribution will which knows not of our interests and ambitions?

That is seemingly precisely where we find ourselves today. By we I refer to the globalist coalition of Western powers which yet again is taking up the role of Team America World Police.... Fuck Yeah!!!

Stop for a moment and contemplate the words of a despot...a villain...a madman...or perhaps...someone who has a point:

Muammar Gadaffi:
You are unjust, you are the aggressors, you are beasts, you are criminals. Your countries are against you. There are protests everywhere in Europe, in America against the steps you're taking against the innocent Libyan people. The people are with us, even your people are with us. All the people on earth are against you. You will fail like how Hitler failed, Napoleon failed, Mussolini failed. All tyrants fall under the feet of the people. This is the era of the people and the great Gaddafi revolution".



I don't intend to make this topic a validation of Gadaffi. He is a turd of his own sort. That having been said, it is quite possible that villainy is more capable than any of pointing out true evil. It is quite possible that at a time when our domestic recovery is barely burgeoning, we need absolutely no part of the faux liberation of yet another group of people (under the guise of kindness) for our own economic interests. Interests which may not even be existent.

I am fully aware that Libya is quite capable of endangering world oil markets with their internal issues. That having been said...isn't this situation just another example of why the United States should remove itself from the role of the globe's police man?

We have certainly discussed Gadaffi and other totalitarian leaders ad nauseam in the past. Maybe it is time, however, to address how our own desires to impart American values on far flung reaches of the globe are a huge contributor to the current struggles we face domestically.

Let's hear some opinions folks...How is this intervention going to make the world safer and better than the myriad of peacekeeping failures of the past two decades? I really want to believe in the gospel...but fear I have no prayers left.

 

First thing's first: this is the greatest song in the history of man. My friends and I used to listen to this song on a daily basis in college. When I first heard this song I was in tears. Love it. "Slavery!" "FUCK YEAH!"

To your main point, I actually agree with you on your broad point that the United States needs to step back from being the world police. As an active Republican, I've even seen a sharp movement in the GOP among the so-called grassroots away from the "neoconservatism" espoused by George W. Bush who, as president, was both commander-in-chief and head of his party. I think less political philosophy and more common sense--observation--has tipped off a lot of us that nation-building and spending ourselves into bankruptcy in un-winnable wars is simply bad public policy. I think, however, both the Republicans and Democrats, unfortunately, broadly agree on interventionism and "policing" as we've seen since the end of World War II all the way up to today. I think it's just a matter of time though before the United States in general swings back to isolationism a la the 1920s, which, in my view, is equally as destructive, especially in a globalized world economy.

In defense of President Obama, I think he's not an interventionist by nature. While I think Obama has shown horrendous leadership on the Middle East revolutions, in some ways that what you--and I--have been calling for--we want, and are finally getting, the U.N., other Arab nations, and other NATO members taking the lead on policing the world. America's capacity in this pseudo-war is somewhat limited, at least as our role has been described. In my view, this is a healthy movement away from American policing without going full tilt toward isolationism. As long as there is a broad coalition of support--like in the first Gulf War--then America's reputation and treasury will not be substantially damaged.

Where I disagree with you is on your assertion that American foreign policy has been "evil". I think there is a fine line between bad public policy and bad intentions or outright "evil." Gaddafi is evil. Obama and Bush are merely incompetent.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
In defense of President Obama, I think he's not an interventionist by nature. While I think Obama has shown horrendous leadership on the Middle East revolutions, in some ways that what you--and I--have been calling for--we want, and are finally getting, the U.N., other Arab nations, and other NATO members taking the lead on policing the world. America's capacity in this pseudo-war is somewhat limited, at least as our role has been described. In my view, this is a healthy movement away from American policing without going full tilt toward isolationism. As long as there is a broad coalition of support--like in the first Gulf War--then America's reputation and treasury will not be substantially damaged.
I actually agree with this a lot.
I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

This intervention will not make the world safer. This intervention is against the internationally recognized leader of a country who is putting down a rebellion in his own country. Gaddafi has kept Al Qaeda and Jihadis out of his country during his entire 47 year rule. Now, we are blindly throwing our support behind rebels who we have had no contact with. How do we know they want turn Libya into a haven for terrorists like Iraq is today.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 
eokpar02:
This intervention will not make the world safer. This intervention is against the internationally recognized leader of a country who is putting down a rebellion in his own country. Gaddafi has kept Al Qaeda and Jihadis out of his country during his entire 47 year rule. Now, we are blindly throwing our support behind rebels who we have had no contact with. How do we know they want turn Libya into a haven for terrorists like Iraq is today.

Well Done you are thinking exactly like Gaddafi wants you to.

Oh and was it not Gaddafi who gave money to the IRA? What about that that Pan am flight incident than?

 

For years critics of the U.S. have pointed to our tacit support of guys like Gaddafi as proof that we are hypocrites and our policy is flawed. Now we're finally doing something about it, and haters are still hatin'.

Spreading democracy is not exclusively an American value--it came from many different sources ranging from ancient Greece to the British Parliament. It has its faults, certainly, but the best way to broad-based prosperity that we've seen so far throughout history has been democratic capitalism. I see no issue at all with making life more difficult for a merciless megalomaniac who treats his country as his own personal resort.

And for the last question about our stepping down as "global policeman," to whom do we hand the badge? If we don't do it, who will? Who else is going to do it? Russia won't. China won't. The UN can't. The EU barely has a functioning military because they've gutted it in favor of social programs. It's like the U.S. is the only sheriff in town and the UK is the only dependable deputy since all the others are hungover and strung out.

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com
 
Best Response
Pfalzer:
And for the last question about our stepping down as "global policeman," to whom do we hand the badge? If we don't do it, who will? Who else is going to do it? Russia won't. China won't. The UN can't. The EU barely has a functioning military because they've gutted it in favor of social programs. It's like the U.S. is the only sheriff in town and the UK is the only dependable deputy since all the others are hungover and strung out.

Brother, newsflash: America is bankrupt. We do not have the money to be the world's policeman anymore. We can't do anymore Somalias, Kosovos, Afghanistans, Iraqs, or Libyas. It, along with our welfare state, is literally jeopardizing our nation's future. If the world feels so strongly about a humanitarian political crisis then it is time for the UN to do its f*cking job rather than making New York the world's stage for bashing all things American. The day should end where the U.S. Military is fighting global wars on behalf of all people except Americans. As I said, I think Obama struck a good balance with Libya--let others--the UN, NATO, Arab League, etc.--lead the way, spend their money and risk the lives of their servicemen. We saved the world three times in the 20th century--twice from fascism and once from communism. We've done our duty. An entire generation of Americans was slaughtered for the salvation of civilization. No more.

Array
 
Pfalzer:
Spreading democracy is not exclusively an American value--it came from many different sources ranging from ancient Greece to the British Parliament. It has its faults, certainly, but the best way to broad-based prosperity that we've seen so far throughout history has been democratic capitalism. I see no issue at all with making life more difficult for a merciless megalomaniac who treats his country as his own personal resort.

When has the USA tried to spread democracy? Was it in Vietnam, nope. Iraq, nope. Afghanistan, nope. Libya, nope.

The rebel movement is against Gaddafi, period. Can you name a single rebel leader who has pontificated about Libya's future under democracy?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 

Jesus christ, Niggas stay sippin on the Kool-Aid, Hope that shit tastes good. How can anyone, with their visage unfurled say that the USA is the global policeman. If you did believe that, than we would have stopped the Genocides in Rwanda and Sudan. We would have stopped the war in Georgia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ivory Coast, etc. We would have invaded North Korea.

The USA has never, ever been the world policeman. We have been nothing more than country run by irrational interventionists who defecate on the ideals aspired to by the founding fathers.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 

Umm, eokpark, I'm with you in principle, but let's debate the issue with some intellectual honesty. The United States has saved democratic republicanism for the world on several occasions, including WWI, WWII, and the Cold War. The Korean and Vietnam wars were certainly wars fought to prevent communism from spreading to otherwise democratic nations. The main purpose of Iraq and Afghanistan has been nation building, and both have held elections. So let's just debate the issue with some intellectual honesty here. America isn't the bad guy. The rest of the world is the so-called bad guy because the world has delegated all the world's "policing" efforts to the United States and to her tax payers.

This is my issue with liberals like eokpark--he's part of the "blame America first" crowd. Blame America for the Vietnam War, but not the Vietcong or the Soviet Union. Blame the United States for the Korean War but not the Soviet Union. Blame America for Iraq but not the United Nations for failing to enforce its own resolutions against Sadaam Hussein. Yes, the same UN that had Libya on its Human Rights Council.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Umm, eokpark, I'm with you in principle, but let's debate the issue with some intellectual honesty. The United States has saved democratic republicanism for the world on several occasions, including WWI, WWII, and the Cold War. The Korean and Vietnam wars were certainly wars fought to prevent communism from spreading to otherwise democratic nations. The main purpose of Iraq and Afghanistan has been nation building, and both have held elections. So let's just debate the issue with some intellectual honesty here. America isn't the bad guy. The rest of the world is the so-called bad guy because the world has delegated all the world's "policing" efforts to the United States and to her tax payers.

This is my issue with liberals like eokpark--he's part of the "blame America first" crowd. Blame America for the Vietnam War, but not the Vietcong or the Soviet Union. Blame the United States for the Korean War but not the Soviet Union. Blame America for Iraq but not the United Nations for failing to enforce its own resolutions against Sadaam Hussein. Yes, the same UN that had Libya on its Human Rights Council.

I need to stop reading posts while in public places because I literally lose my shit once I read foolish stuff like this.
Are you arguing that we fought the Korean and Vietnam war to protect democracy? Dude, you are a few clicks away from Wikipedia and numerous sources that could be fairly informative. In Vietnam, we assisted Diem after he lost a nationwide election. We fought against the will of the Korean people in Korean peninsula in the Korean war. To say we fought because of democratic ideals is so foolish and just shows a dearth of knowledge.

Is America to blame for the Iraq War? Of course. Our president mislead the world on the abilities of some third world tin pot.
Is America to blame for the Vietnam War? How could it not be?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
The main purpose of Iraq and Afghanistan has been nation building, and both have held elections. So let's just debate the issue with some intellectual honesty here. America isn't the bad guy. The rest of the world is the so-called bad guy because the world has delegated all the world's "policing" efforts to the United States and to her tax payers.

We went to Iraq for WMDs. We went to Afghanistan because of 9/11. We didn't go there to nation build. Only a fool would think the Afghanistan's elections and Iraqi elections have a modicum of the legitimacy of their counterparts in the developed world.

When did the world delegate nation-building to the USA? We went to Iraq, not because of an international vote saying that America should waste nearly a trillion dollars, but because of 935 lies told to the American public about the capabilities of Hussein. This role of an international policeman is something made up by Americans who want to paint a familiar face on the church of interventionism that you ascribe to.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 

Well, your Leftist idea of democracy is basically in-line with the Islamic fascist idea of democracy: one man, one vote, one time. Sure, communists were popular in Vietnam and Korea at the time. Communists were popular in Cuba, too. Castro has somehow managed to get re-elected with 98% of the "democratic" vote for the last 50 years. The communist party in Vietnam and North Korea have miraculously failed to lose a popular "election" in decades. So, yeah, by your Leftist/Islamic fascist view of democracy, America was against democracy. By a sane, rational person's idea of democracy, the United States was attempting to invest in the future of democratic civilization.

By the way, South Korea and Japan are 2 of the most thriving republics on earth and certainly in Asia. This little piece of truth throws a big wrench in your delusion that the United States has failed to spread democracy throughout the world. I think much of Eastern Europe and the West Germans, who we saved through the Marshall Plan, would also disagree with your absurd notions.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Well, your Leftist idea of democracy is basically in-line with the Islamic fascist idea of democracy: one man, one vote, one time. Sure, communists were popular in Vietnam and Korea at the time. Communists were popular in Cuba, too. Castro has somehow managed to get re-elected with 98% of the "democratic" vote for the last 50 years. The communist party in Vietnam and North Korea have miraculously failed to lose a popular "election" in decades. So, yeah, by your Leftist/Islamic fascist view of democracy, America was against democracy. By a sane, rational person's idea of democracy, the United States was attempting to invest in the future of democratic civilization.

By the way, South Korea and Japan are 2 of the most thriving republics on earth and certainly in Asia. This little piece of truth throws a big wrench in your delusion that the United States has failed to spread democracy throughout the world. I think much of Eastern Europe and the West Germans, who we saved through the Marshall Plan, would also disagree with your absurd notions.

How am I a leftist? You are the one pontificating on INTERVENING in the internal affairs of other countries. To say I am a leftist/ Islamic fascist ( you are an idiot for calling me an islamic fascist and I actually feel sorry that your own development has been stilted to the point where you call libertarians Islamic Fascists).

I would love to get in a long winded debate about the merits/demerits of the Vietnam war, but you are just incapable of responding in an effective way. Diem lost an election and instead of leaving and letting the people in that country duke it out, we sent 60 thousand Americans to their deaths (I would be remiss to not mention the millions of Vietnamese who died, but unlike you I am not an advocate of international welfare, so they don't matter as much). It had nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with a proxy war we were fighting.

You just don't know history. In Iran, the USA helped keep in power the Shah. In Chile, it was Pinochet. In Pakistan, it was Musharaf. In Egypt it was Mubarak. Mobuto in the Congo.

How in the world has it been our MO to spread democracy? Do you actually believe our forays into Vietnam and Korea was to keep them democratic? You can not name a single instance where the USA intervened in another country with the expressed contention of "saving democracy".

What communist party in North Korea? Last time I checked it was a very poorly run dictatorship.

Are you saying that Vietnam is communist/ run by communists? If you actually believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. Vietnam is as communist as China or the numerous single party states (Botswana being a great example).

Who said anything about Japan? Japan attacked us and we took every step to disarm them. To say we fought against Japan with the intent to make them democratic is beyond stupid.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 

I'll be honest, I could give a shit about spreading democracy, we should protect ourselves and our interests. Iraq was dumb, but there was evidence from the CIA that they had WMD's and Saddam had a history of supporting foreign terrorism.

Afghanistan was because the government was supporting and harboring Osama bin Laden- who, may I remind you, killed around 3,000 American citizens. If France's government was doing that I would say invade their ass too, who cares about democracy in that type of situation? If the people suport Osama, I dont say kill them, but institute a leader (yes a dictator) that would both work to remove anti-American sentiment and insurgency. You people are all up in a tizzy over Mubarak and Fulgencio Bautista, but they were NECESSARY. Mubarak was possibly the most benevolent leader that was considered a dictator out there. Why was he overthrown you ask? Because he tortured terrorists to SAVE AMERICAN LIVES. This is utterly ridiculous. Ben Ali literally tripled the average income of his people during his reign, but he was overthrown because the people essentially wanted Communism. If that isn't what they get, well expect another revolution. And how is Communism democratic at all? It may start that way, but it never persists. Read the Road to Serfdom. Because we have morals we try to rebuild the countries, and for our own safety. I would be fine with carpet bombing and killing their leaders and leaving. In fact we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. Easiest way to prevent anti-Americanism. Are all Islamists bad, no, in fact far from it. But the radical wing detests America.

if we can abandon our morality (aka Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel) maybe we can stop the Islamo-fascists' hatred of America. But we should continue to pursue things in our best interest. Is Libya one of them...no. Was Somalia, Sudan, Rwanda...no. Was Korea, Vietnam, Chile...yes. No more world police, we should only be out for ourselves, because while we love multi-lateral action, if the shit hits the fan for America, those "alles" (except a few core nations) will dissipate faster than a hippie crowd listening to Slayer.

Reality hits you hard, bro...
 
MMBinNC:
I'll be honest, I could give a shit about spreading democracy, we should protect ourselves and our interests. Iraq was dumb, but there was evidence from the CIA that they had WMD's and Saddam had a history of supporting foreign terrorism...

You can't be serious with that first part about CIA being in possesion of evidence that would without a doubt prove the existence of WMD's. Do people actually still believe that shit?

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-04-23/us/cia.iraq_1_iraq-war-cia-official-…

Fair Game is actually a decent movie depicting the indicment of Cheney's chief of staff and what happened with Joseph Wilson and his ex-CIA wife.

Either way, without going off-topic any further, I have no problem with the role that US has taken on in the situation in Libya, although countries such as France, Great Britain, Canada, etc. could have handled the no-fly zone enforment themselves.

" A recession is when other people lose their job, a depression is when you lose your job. "
 

Ut ratione voluptas est. Laudantium architecto fuga dolor molestiae. Eum consequatur nihil expedita in.

Asperiores ut voluptatem deleniti qui hic quo. Numquam vel ut enim. Reiciendis qui similique ratione pariatur. Ea enim velit et et.

Sint voluptates non omnis earum nobis non aliquid. Quia ut repudiandae maxime. Illum voluptatem nam suscipit voluptatum. Corporis est sapiente numquam quo itaque nam in. Aut ratione iste eius ut.

Cupiditate quis delectus est tempore et. Sed ut consequuntur reprehenderit perferendis. Ut qui est possimus totam et ut voluptatem.

Reality hits you hard, bro...

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
3
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
6
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
7
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
8
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
9
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
10
bolo up's picture
bolo up
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”