Andy note: "Best of Eddie" - while Eddie is on vacation we're throwing up some of his classic posts from the past. This one is originally from Nov. 2010 . If there's an old post from Eddie you'd like to see up again shoot me a message.
Yesterday's post about Back-Door Mark struck a chord with a lot of you, and you brought up some interesting things in the comments. Several of you didn't find Mark's life choices appealing, and that's not surprising on a forum designed for achievement-oriented bankers. It made me look back and wonder if the 21-year old Eddie would consider the 41-year old Eddie a success. Based on my definition of success and all the things I wanted to accomplish back then, I had to admit that he probably wouldn't. But you know what? Fuck him.
I saved a drowning woman 15 years ago. It wasn't a big, heroic thing. It was more of a right place, right time kinda deal. But I think most people would rank that sort of thing pretty high on their list of accomplishments. I adopted a couple kids from a Siberian orphanage. Again, not a big deal; it was the right thing to do and the right time in my life to do it. I was the tactician aboard the 76-foot yacht that won the 2001 America's Schooner Cup. I even had a pornographic magazine write a cover story about me recently, and I have you guys to thank for that. Still, am I the billionaire hedge fund manager my 21-year old self expected me to be at this point? Not by a long shot.
Just because I'm not a billionaire hedge fund manager doesn't mean that you won't be at my age, if that's what you really want in life. I would just submit to you that what you really want in life is going to change quite a bit as the years fly by. With that in mind, I'd like to propose an exercise.
Your Homework Assignment for the Day
This is something I did back in 1996, and I've mentioned it a couple times on the site. At some point today when you have a few free moments (yeah, right!), take out a notebook and write out a life plan. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate or detailed. Break it down into categories of one year from now, three years from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, and lifetime expectations.
I'm not really interested in the short term stuff for the purposes of this exercise, but it's good to have it because it keeps you focused. What I'm really interested in is the 5, 10, 20-year and lifetime expectations. Trust me, you'll be glad you took the time to do this. When you're my age it's great to have a record of where your head was at this age.
What do you absolutely have to accomplish in life to consider yourself a success by the time you hit middle age? Do you want to have a family? Lots of people consider that an accomplishment. Do you want to own a company, or be a BSD on the Street? Be sure to quantify exactly what that means to you. Where will you live? What will you own? What's your annual income and overall net worth at each different stage? It doesn't hurt to dream big here, as long as it's something you really want.
Believe me when I tell you that Back-Door Mark was living his dream. It might not work for a lot of you, but he was exactly where he wanted to be. And I've seen people do far worse.
Finally, econ asked me the following in the comments yesterday:
Hey Eddie, how do you feel about it looking back over all these years? Are you happy with how things played out, or do you sorta wish you would have went "Back-Door" Mark style instead?
To this I can only answer...yes.
I live a charmed life, and I'd never claim otherwise. Luck has been a huge asset to me over the years, but remember, luck favors a prepared mind. Today I live a mostly stress-free life in one of the world's great cities, I have a great family, close friends, and thanks to WSO, I have a connection to some of the brightest and funniest young minds that guys my age don't normally have an opportunity to interact with.
Of course, whenever I pass a rowdy bar at happy hour on my way home to a quiet evening with the family (or maybe not so quiet if the kids decide to be a pain in the ass), I can't help but think about guys like Back-Door Mark who don't have anywhere they have to be or anyone depending on them. You can't help but see the appeal in that lifestyle sometimes. I think that's only natural.
But now I'm interested in what you guys think. I'm dead serious about this too, because it will make a difference to you later in life.
What are the things you have to accomplish for you to consider yourself a success at, say, age 40? What are the things you want to accomplish by then, but don't necessarily have to? What are you doing to make those dreams a reality? Finally, how will you deal with it if you don't accomplish those things?
Great post yesterday, Eddie, and perfect exercise today. At 52 now, I regularly look back at an "obituary" I wrote for myself in my 20s. It's truly amazing the things that I've accomplished as I projected, and more amazing are the things I thought would be important then that today I have no regrets having not accomplished. Run hard, monkeys, but toward your dreams, not what someone else tells you that's important.
I just returned last night from a 10 day quick-trip to Belize. Two types of tourists where on the islands: 20-somethings having a great time trying on life dancing in the sand and 70-somethings shuffling along the beach wondering why they waited so long to finally go on the trips they worked 50 years to "earn". Again, run hard, but play hard, too. There's nothing wrong with throwing a swimsuit and a pair of flip flops in a bag and being Back-door Mark for a week...pick an island and add adventures to your resume.
Don't just ponder work goals, also search for what excites you...
As always Ed that's some real shit. I'm definitely going t doo the homework. I'm always rolling with the punches in life, well I do have certain goals ( like owning a Hedge fund in Africa, if we get our minds right that is) but I've not really thought about quantifying it chronologically like that, I think it's a great idea.
A house, a family, a good paying job, a career. Sadly I doubt now that I'll ever accomplish those things.
Great stuff Eddie. It's interesting how much one's expectations can change over the years. Our definition of "success" definitely morphs as we age and find value in different things.
Current Age 24
Financial Goals (in current USD values):
Age 30: Total Net worth of > 1Mill. Liquid net worth > 500k. Also, I dont' need a 993 c4s but I will def buy one before I am 30.
Age 40: Two homes, with max of 1 Mortgage...Primary residence paid off.
Age 50: Net worth at least 5mill. With at least 2mill of that liquid. At least partially retire by now.
Experience Goals (Things I would really enjoy and hope I have the time/balls to do):
Get married; at least 2 kids, allowing for ample time to spend with my family: Before 45.
Graduate from culinary school + open a restaurant : Within lifetime
Go back to school.... Quantitative Masters or Phd : If masters within next 5 years if PhD next 10 years.
Take a shot at being a professional poker player: Lifetime
After setting these out...I realize that I currently place a lot more emphasis on achieving my financial goals relative to my experience goals. The financial goals are really more like minimums from my perspective.... I feel as though they are attainable, but also necessary to maintain the lifestyle I think I want/grew up with. That being said, fulfilling my financial goals will be for nothing if I don't at least tick some of the boxes for the experience goals. I can tell its gonna be tough to strike the right balance... money is just really fuel to live the life you want. If youth is wasted on the young just then wealth is wasted on the aged; I hope I don't end up with a shit ton of fuel but only a beat up old car to use it in.
I did this pretty quickly, I might have to revisit this exercise weekly to actually have any idea what I want but this is what I got as of today.
Let me try this...current age 23
Within the next 3 years: -shoot a documentary on a specific subject I have in mind -possibly go to bschool
Within the next 5-7 years: -transitition to media biz -start up my own investment firm -maybe have a kid ;)
Can't really think beyond that as life could change so much.
-Serve my country (armed forces, volunteer) -Learn to fly a plane, own a nice motorcycle -Own an apartment in NYC and a house somewhere else -Put all my younger siblings through college -MBA from H/S/W
Join the air force... first two done.
NYC is a big place... buy a apt in brooklyn! and Leverage up to your neck.
Young siblings... community college
MBA... from Hargwarts School of Wizards!
See all done!
But really. Props for the third goal!
Good posts,
I am facing a similar issue. Recruitment is ending but I cant help but think about doing something awesome before I start a career. The school career advisors look at me strangely when I say I am probably going to miss most of the entry level program dates to back pack europe for 50 days with my gf, and quite frankly I am worried about missing the recruitment bus myself. However, I do realize that this finance gig is a moving bus and that there are no pee stops. That is why I loved the story of Mark. I think it is important for us monkeys to think about this ride before we get on it and realize that it is a longer and bumpier trip to a destination thats not as special as we think.
two letters: P E .
My grand father died two weeks before my dad was born.
My dad died 6 days after I turned 18.
My goal: Live to see a grandchild.
Everything else be damned.
Sorry for your loss, bro.
What are you doing on an Internet forum? Go knock some broad up, for crying out loud!
Eddie,
I always appreciate the "take a step back/bigger picture" views you bring to the table. So thanks.
Im 25 now,
By 30, put a rock on my gf's hand
By 35, be married, have a top 10 MBA, buy my mother the 1998 Jaguar she always wanted. She'll be 63 and just getting ready to retire.
By 50, have 2-3 kids total, avoid the forbidden beer gut, open a real Irish Pub with my brother in Southie or La Jolla
Lifetime: Climb K2, see the Indian town my "wife" was born in, Bring my old man bone fishing in the Fla Keys. Play the Old Course @ St Andrews and break 80 on Bethpage Black.
That's quite a cultural divide there, bro. Wouldn't an Irish bar in Southie just be a bar? (What do they call Mexican food in Mexico? Food.)
That's a great list.
Haha, good observation. Got family in southie, and yeah it'd be a "bar" but id close the doors the day it becomes like Murphys Law haha (if your familiar w/ the area). But La Jolla has a dire need for a real Irish pub... 6 in one, half dozen in the other in my eyes. Both have their perks
Thanks Ed, I truly appreciate it.
The wife and I are trying daily, sometimes twice a day. It's good to be newly weds......
Maybe I'm just weird, or maybe it's just the alcohol talking, but my goals are pretty stable across time. Simply, I just want to earn a decent living and have a good social life. Sure, these definitions will change slightly over the years, but basically that's all I'm looking for. If I can make $100K (or maybe a couple hundred grand) a year, doing a job I enjoy, working 50 or so hours a week on average, that'd be enough for me career wise. And by good social life, I don't really mean knowing/meeting tons of people, but rather having really close/rewarding relationships. If I can accomplish those two things, I'm set for life.
It's funny how much goals can change in a year and a half lol. Now my goal is to work for myself and travel. Working 9-5 in a cubicle really blows, and I don't want to spend anymore than a few years doing it.
the most important thing i must accomplish is a secure future for me and my future family (have girl, will multiply) currently finishing my BA, have a decent job in economics, hope to stay in the field, not worrying too much about it. would like to get into a consulting job or C-suit by the age of 35 (fantasizing here) my ultimate goal is to have a conveniently located (not too far from civilization but not within eyesight of it) home in the mountains with a pool that overlooks the valley. considering politics around 40-50 to help secure that future (don't trust today's politicians to do a decent job, tho the market forces, i believe, also function in politics, and as a result, the situation will never be terrible - just never satisfactory neither).
my 2cents.
would be nice to have a yacht, but i really just need a good view and some peace and quiet. peace and quiet is the most important thing really. a yacht would just serve me in the purpose of sailing to the middle of the med and disconnect from the world for a week.
oh, forgot to mention a key point: the reason i'm not stressed out over the fact that my current job won't make me rich (tho i'm pretty well off considering i'm working 33 hour weeks and don't even have a degree yet) is that i like the people i'm working with. i'm on personal speaking terms with my supervisor, my boss, and exchange a word or two here and there with the ceo and chairman (200-people firm) and they're all nice people i wouldn't mind spending my entire career around. they're intelligent, laid-back, appreciative, no-nonsense... people are the most important ingredient in a satisfying life/career.
Finishing my undergrad degree,
A few things I would like to have accomplished/experienced by the time I am older:
Visit Amsterdam/travel to many different places Get married and have a career that is mentally stimulating Raise children and help them succeed Somehow be influential in the lives of others (not sure how, volunteering on weekends?) Meet a wide variety of people and listen to their views on life and hopefully develop one of my own
Its funny how when I was 12-13 I was reading books by Kiyosaki, Branson, and Walton. At 15-16, I was running a pretty neat business on ebay. Couldn't understood why my classmates had to go work for $6 an hour when I pocketed 10x what they would earn in a week, in a single day. I told myself at the age of 22-23 I would have an apartment at the rate I was going. However, an unfortunate series of events happened, I lost that business and went to college. So looks like owning an apartment by 22-23 is not going to happen. Btw, my dad was already 200k in NW at that age. No degree, just streetsmarts and balls. He retired in his mid-30s. He funded me throughout college and grad school. He took us on trips around the world. Best food, best of everything. Money was never the issue. I am extremely grateful for this and I hope that I have the skills to be at least half the man he was.
Now that I am 21, I have a MS from an elite university and have been suckered into this whole 'there are only two types of jobs mentality - IB & Consulting". I spent my last two holidays working at IBs and absolutely hated it, but everytime the paycheck came in, I was happy. Now that I have offers at hand, I'm asking myself if I can really go beyond the 10 weeks that I have 'endured'. I enjoy 'growing' things (businesses), cooking and have even thought of enrolling myself to a culinary institute. I had absolutely no pressure from my parents to go to an elite university. They would fund me regardless of whether I went to cook school or grad school.
Like a few others here, my goal is to set up something of my own, enough to allow me and my family to live extremely comfortably. I want to be able to give the best of everything to my kids, splurge on my 'wife' and help out my younger cousins out - education wise, who are not so well off. I want to live 6 months in SF, pack my bags, then go 6 months in Tokyo, Hong Kong, etc, you get the idea.
I really think these plans are somewhat pointless. I prefer to live as close to the present as possible and keep doing what I love both professionally and personally. I guess if I had a goal it would be to keep doing that regardless of what pressures I get from others to conform to their idea of what I should be doing. Also, as anyone with even a little bit of life experience knows, life dosent care about your plan and that list is going to get shredded one way or another.
So true. I speak from experience when I say, you can spend several years working towards a goal that you want so bad, you can taste it. And then once you get there, you realize it's really not what you want to do, at all.
I just want a job. My present is peanut butter sandwiches and shame.
Current age: 26
Financial and experience goals are mixed, as they are interdependent
By 30: get Harvard or Columbia MBA, start earning 7 (or at least really high 6) figure income, maintain perfect health (obviously what I can control - diet/exercise), put little brother through college, get back to playing guitar, finish my abandoned paintings. maybe also finish a book I've been writing and publish some previous work, attend a bunch of weddings.
By 35: Be financially comfortable enough to work because I want to and not because I have to; have more time to snowboard and ride horses; travel: Cambodia, rural Japan, Tibet, Gobi; start going to therapy to address my intimacy and trust issues.
By 40: mentally and physically beef up enough to climb Everest; spend some time with shinto and buddhists; definitely start paragliding/skydiving if I hadn't until then; sail to most places I want to approach from water: Greenland, Ireland, New Zealand, French Polynesia, Fiji; wake up on a boat in thick fog with only the songs of whales and the calls of seagulls occasionally breaking up the rhythm of the ocean; find peace and the meaning of life; buy a big house and start a family.
By 50: have a soccer team of kids, travel across Africa, start several charities/foundations, hopefully watch my kids grow into decent human beings, revisit my youth by living vicariously through them :)
Your 40s and 50s are similar to mine. I don't need a big house though, Rural Japan is cool. I'd like to own a small farm in rural Japan and live off something I grow. That's one of the reasons why I would want to have children.... so they can ask me questions, and I can answer them by revisiting my youth... searching through them and hopefully be able to answer them knowing that I have done all the good I could have done in my life.
People believe that during your last moments you see flashbacks of your life, make it worth watching, not something you'll fall asleep to in your death.
Naturally there are different courses intended and designed for different people, inevitably everyone must make a choice (at least those that want to achieve the most success in their chosen path). Wasting time rationalizing and contemplating only sets you back. Such a mentality reminds me of friends of mine that go to general universities that take Gen Ed's until their junior year before deciding that they should have been on a nursing track since Freshman year. This is all to say that any reasonable amount of success can only be attained through dedication and fortitude; waffling and second guessing are detrimental. I am not slandering self assessment nor am I disregarding the contemplative soul. I am simply arguing that while there are many career paths for the large variety of wannabe young professionals, and while the grass seem be greener on the other side, it is far better to resolute and confident in your choices. Regret and second guessing are tortuous and can deconstruction any meaningful existence. You only live once, go hard, earn a build an earnest reputation, try everything, never sacrifice or compromise, and achieve to the best of your abilities. Fuck your abilities, over achieve and surprise yourself and build an existence that suits you in the moment. Like Edmundo said if 5 years from now your life doesn't match your previous expectations and you have seemingly disappointed young JimYoungJr - Fuck 'em. Life is far too short and success is far too fleeting to allow for doubt and hesitation.
But what do I know - I am just a wannabe monkey and a 3rd year Fi and Math major from a non-target and I would work 200 hours a week in order to work on the Street if only there were more hours in a week.
I love guys like Mark, they give us perspective and enrich our downtime, but it takes real balls break yourself week in and week out only to regroup and do it again. If you don't like what you are doing - get out, but I would say never spend too much time contemplating the path you passed by. Its not productive, plus the guy in the adjacent cubicle just made 20 more calls in the meantime. Regret is an inhibitor - the odds are all ready stacked against you anyhow.
Sorry for the lengthy first comment but this is in my wheelhouse.
The story of Mark is eerily similar to my life over the past two years. I lived right by the beach (although in Santa Cruz) and surfed and mountain biked my ass off while working a 40 hour job. It was something I had to do and I am so glad I did. Although I can't and didn't knock down ladies like he does (which BTW doesn't just come with his lifestyle; he has something else going for him on that front- including being in PB) I had my fair share of fun on that end.
Now, I'm working towards begin a more responsible and higher paid adult so that I can one day afford to have a family and be able to pursue hobbies and travel. I also want to keep strong relationships with my family and friends and meet new ones.
Those are my financial goals, simple and plain. No millions and millions of dollars by 40; I could care less. I'm so constant I'll need to have work in my life or I'll freak out so retiring early is not an option anyway!
Some other things I HAVE to do: -Race Mega Avalanche in France -Surf in Bali -Live in New Zealand for a year before having kids -Race the Baja 1000 -Participate in the Gumball 3000 car rally in Europe in my Porsche 911 (preferably of 1994 vintage) -Mountain bike everywhere I can (Switzerland, Hawaii, Costa Rica) -Tour Southeast Asia by bike -Build a 2nd house (as in do it with my hands) on family property in the woods of Pennsylvania
It's all about experiences in my opinion.
I MUST reach The Addict on WSO... I MUST I MUST I MUST
sb to you then... grumblegrumble
Hilarious
Well what an interesting read! As a fresh faced young chap my goals currently stand as below (looking at it as quantifiably as possible!)
In 20 years time...
Lets see what the hell happens :)
Well what an interesting read! As a fresh faced young chap my goals currently stand as below (looking at it as quantifiably as possible!)
In 20 years time...
Lets see what the hell happens :)
1 Year: Slay Hoes 2 Years: Slay Hoes 3 Years: Slay Hoes 4 Years: Slay Hoes 5 Years: Slay Hoes
Nah, but seriously.... Slay Hoes
1 Year: Finish CPA 2-3 Years: Equity Research gig and CFA 5 Years: Own an apt in downtown nyc 5 - 10 Years: Maybe MBA, Maybe MSF - basically whatever the market deems valuable at that time, perhaps go PE route, or maybe just see what opportunities come my way in any industry so long as the job suits my needs.
I used to have this 90 year plan, but things have changed so I am currently in the process of building my new life plan. When it comes down to life plans, they are a double edged sword. You can get so blinded by your "goal" that you may miss out on some great opportunities both professionally, and to slay hoes.
Stay Frosty Chimps
P.S. it's after midnight in ny on a saturday and im posting here. def not slaying hoes, but im slaying this section of the CPA. HOLLA
Within 20 years, Land a IB job in 2 years Work at PE firm in 5 years Get a MBA if needed at MBA business schools ">M7 (travel when I am in MBA) Marry when I am 30 years old. Have 2 kids. Work less by 40 years old and travel around the world and enjoy life assuming I have saved enough money (2 million Net worth).
WSO template? :)
In seriousness I'd only caution against it because it leaves out both living and working abroad. I left the US two yrs ago and it was the best decision of my life. I'll come back someday but not soon.
Traveling a bunch is great but is not the same as living and working in another country.
J_monkey are you at Ivey or U of T by chance? My current gf was U of T and we're up in Orillia right now visiting her folks.
Happy America Day everyone.
Indeed, I am from U of T (Rotman). I spent most of my life in Vancouver and Tokyo though (my father worked there for a while).
I hope to work at Tokyo again since I spent most of my childhood there. Might do my analyst stint there if I could.
Great to read what you guys have as objectives. Keep thinking and reviewing your lists as time passes.
My 2c contribution: Do what I love and love what I do. Enjoy my wife, family and friends. Live a healthy life with a purpose. Have no regrets (as far as possible). Be able to sleeep well at night (as in a clean concience meaning, not a pill addiction) Have/earn enough to live nicely but not enough to have "money problems" (check the direction here).
Sounds simple or even easy... time and experience tells you it takes effort, courage and dedication.
One goal... not be a wage slave by 35...
Apart from that I'm sorted, let the chips fall where they may...
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