Is it possible to move into S&T at a BB with power trading experience?
A bit of background: I interned at a MM investment bank and had a trading internship at a private power trading firm (think Enron minus the fraud) on the West coast. I got offered a Real-time trading position here and I think I’ll take it. It’s hard to pass up a little over 6 figure salary and the work-life balance offered right out of undergrad. How difficult would it be to move to sales & trading at a BB with this experience after a few years?
It's considered part of the operations division (as scheduling / logistics is as well for natural gas), but you can eventually move into trading. Having worked at GS/MS commodities, I would however be careful with their long-term commitment to the physical business.
The impression I got from the BB was that they’re mainly just market making nowadays. I interviewed at a few top commodity houses and I met a lot of guys that used to work on BB commodities desks (places like GS/MS) and they all said that the bank presence in the space is dying because of all the regulation (e.g. MS sold their physical business). I think you’re in a better spot long term in terms of career prospects and comp. Not to mention the kind of trading you’ll do in your current role is a lot more interesting (in my opinion) than market making at a bank.
You're right. Majority of trading at banks are market making now. Ability to take exposure is significantly lower. I was talking to a rates vol trader who sits close by to me and this guy is smart, obviously. Went to Columbia and got an MFE. So I had a interview for a vol trader job for an arg major down in texas and I asked him what his strategy was so I can prepare mysel and he pulled out a sheet showing me a some charts of the vol curve and he told me he trades mean reversion with a feeling to it (Wasn't very helpful). I overheard the treasury guys buying the dip a couple days ago and the desk head didn't agree with one trader. I didn't know what they were discussing about it but it appears there is still idea generation. In market making, prop trading is always going to be there because it's an added skill that all traders want to have.
US Treasuries is one part of the investment bank that will always be allowed to prop trade with no limits...because the US govt has a financial interest in as many firms as possible taking positions in the bonds...to create a more liquid market.
buy and hold 10bln of 5yr notes - no problem buy and hold 10bln of AAPL - slap - not allowed
is market making that bad? seems like it could be still quite good to me
Working RT basically the only way to get into a BB is on their RT desk. Most of what I've seen is guys get used to working RT, they like the lifestyle of being off for a week once every 5 plus extra vacation. The guys that leave RT desks go to (rough order): short-term trader, trading analyst, structuring analyst, pricing analyst, load forecasting analyst, etc. If you really want to work S&T at BB, joining their RT desk would be the easiest/smoothest
Agree with previous posts - BB banks focus mainly on market making on the curve. In order to get this job you would have to first move to prompt trader or term trader role. You would also have to be pretty damn good to get a seat in a bank.
The caveat here is that by the time you're pretty damn good enough to get a seat at a bank, are you going to make that much more money when weighed against the low job security? If you're working for a utility then 'yes', you can get double the base and a much better bonus. If you're working for a large trading house or an oil major, you'll still get paid more at a bank but not by that much. I was recently speaking with a guy who used to trade power at a top BB (GS/JPM/MS) and currently does prop curve trading at a large stable shop (think oil major pay and security) since the BB post financial crisis withdrawal from the space. Asked if he would go back to a bank he basically said "why would I? I earn a bit less but I have kids and a mortgage, and I know the guys I work for will never fire me"
With all that said - I do see that the BBs are increasing or building out power desks (still MM though). With everything that's happening in the space - who knows, maybe in a couple of years they'll move into algo short term or even RT. FYI even Trafigura opened a power desk last year.
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