What Distinction is Better - CFA®, MBA, or CAIA?

So, the age old question...what is more useful for a long term career in finance, the CFA® , the MBA, or the CAIA? Wait, a minute, what even is the CAIA? This article will go through the pros and cons of pursuing each of these three certifications. The upfront economic costs and opportunity costs of the MBA may be significantly higher than CFA® requirements, but an MBA does certainly have many intangible benefits such as networking and develops a broader base of professional problem solving and professional skills. The CFA® is very targeted towards finance and investment management careers, and is now being sought out more and more by professional firms for the recruitment process.

Should I Get A CFA®, An MBA, or a CAIA?

The CFA®, many argue, is also not as much as a door opener, as it is a career accelerator once one is already in a buy side or investments role at a firm. Conversely, the MBA opens many recruiting possibilities for candidates interested in the recruiting process. The CAIA is a relatively new exam focusing on the alternative investments field, and has yet to be tested for its impact on the job front.

What is the CFA® Certification?

The Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA®) designation is an international professional certification offered by the CFA® Institute to financial analysts who complete a series of three exams. To become a CFA® Charter holder candidates must pass each of three six-hour exams, possess a bachelor's degree (or equivalent, as assessed by CFA® institute) and have 48 months of qualified, professional work experience. CFA® charter holders are also obligated to adhere to a strict Code of Ethics and Standards governing their professional conduct.

The CFA® is a qualification for finance and investment professionals, particularly in the fields of Asset Management and the research function covering stocks, bonds and their derivative assets. The program focuses on portfolio management and financial analysis, and provides a generalist knowledge of other areas of corporate finance, securities valuation, and accounting.

Today, CFA® Institute has more than 101,000 members around the world, including more than 89,000 CFA® charter holders.

What is a CFA® 's Salary?

While the earnings power of the CFA® distinction will depend on your position, the corporate finance institute offer a guide of the average earnings of CFA® holders.

You can read more on the Corporate Finance Institute website.

What is the CAIA Designation?

Founded in 2002, the CAIA Association is the sponsoring body for the only globally-recognized designation for Alternative Investment expertise. Across the globe, the designation demonstrates mastery of alternative investment concepts, tools, and practices, and promotes adherence to the highest standards of professional conduct in private equity, real estate, distressed debt, and hedge funds.

The CAIA program's diverse curriculum appeals to investment advisors, consultants and analysts, fund managers and administrators, accountants, lawyers, academics, and compliance and back office personnel.

Candidates include seasoned professionals looking to explore new areas within the AI markets, generalists wishing to add another asset class to their investment arsenal, and new industry participants seeking to establish a core understanding of alternative investment.

The CAIA Association is a dynamic organization that reflects its membership's interests and provides them with a vibrant global network. We are committed to developing industry skills and educational standards, and provide the industry's first and only designation for alternative investment specialists.

What is an MBA?

The Master of Business Administration (MBA or M.B.A.) is a degree in business administration, which attracts people from a wide range of academic disciplines. The MBA designation originated in the U.S., emerging from the late 19th century as the country industrialized and companies sought out more scientific approaches to management. The core courses in the MBA program are designed to introduce students to the various areas of business such as accounting, marketing, human resources, operations management, etc. Students in some MBA programs have the option to select an area or multiple areas of concentration and focus approximately one-third of their studies in this subject.

Accreditation bodies exist specifically for MBA programs to ensure consistency and quality of graduate business education. Business schools in many countries offer MBA programs tailored to full-time, part-time, executive, and distance learning students, with specialized concentrations.

MBA vs. CFA® vs. CAIA Exams

In a recent article, Chad Sandstedt, CFA® , discusses the following very well:

It's a question asked by nearly every aspiring finance professional at one time or another -- is my time (and money) best spent pursuing the Chartered Financial Analyst designation or a Masters in Business Administration? There's no question that both are valuable credentials, each are capable of delivering higher salaries and better advancement prospects. However, the answer to this question depends on many factors, including your professional goals, background and resources, both in terms of time and money.

What Career Do You Want to Pursue?

One obvious difference between the CFA® program and an MBA program is the breadth of the curriculum. A good analogy is that the curriculum of the CFA® program is a foot wide and a mile deep while the curriculum of MBA programs are a mile wide and a foot deep.

If you plan on working in finance, the CFA® program will provide a wealth of knowledge. However, if your career path veers out of finance, the chances that you'll be able to utilize the curriculum are limited. In contrast, an MBA program is likely to provide exposure across numerous fields of study that can be applied in almost any position, whether in finance or not. As such, potential CFA® candidates are advised to step back and assess their commitment to a career in finance.

For those who are working in another field and view the CFA® program as a way to break into a finance career, it may be more appropriate to first obtain a position in the field, even if it's at an entry level, to assess your commitment to a finance career before beginning the CFA® program.

How Much Do the CFA® , CAIA, and MBA Cost?

One of the most popular motivations for enrolling in the CFA® program or an MBA program is to create new career opportunities. Today, many finance jobs require either a CFA® designation or an MBA. What's the cost to become qualified for these positions? While there are no exact numbers for either the CFA® program or an MBA program, we can make a few assumptions that will apply to many aspiring professionals.

First, let's look at the cost of the CFA® program. Our first assumption is that it takes, on average, four exams to complete all three levels of the CFA® program. Enrollment and registration fees for four exams will cost $1,815 with early registration. The cost of preparation materials can vary widely between CFA® candidates. At the low end of the price range is the purchase of study notes and textbooks. Realistically, many candidates require additional preparation such as study seminars, software, online programs, audio programs, video programs or flashcards. The cost of such a comprehensive study plan could be an additional $2,000 per year. Given our relatively aggressive assumption that all three exams will be successfully completed in four attempts, we will assume a fairly aggressive study plan with $1,000 of study material per year, for a total of $4,000 over four years. Therefore, the total cost of obtaining the CFA® designation, including registration fees and test preparation materials, would be $5,815.

The cost of an MBA can range dramatically, from a part-time program at a state university to a full-time program at an Ivy League school, the costs may range from $20,000 on the low end to over $100,000 on the high end.

In summary, the cost of obtaining an MBA will range from four to twenty times the cost of the CFA® program.

How Long Does it Take to Get the CFA® , CAIA, or MBA?

In the previous section we listed an assumption that it will take the average CFA® candidate four exams to complete all three levels of the CFA® program. Up until December 2003, all three levels of the CFA® exam were administered just once per year. In December 2003, the Level I CFA® exam was available to be taken twice per year. If a CFA® candidate takes the Level I exam in December, the Level II exam the following June, and the Level III exam one year later, it would take approximately two years if you assume that studying for the Level I exam begins in June. While this is certainly an achievable task and there are people who accomplish this, it's becoming very difficult to do with lower pass rates and more demanding careers that allow less study time to prepare for each exam. Since we assume it will take four attempts to pass all three levels of the CFA®  program, we will assume these four exams will be completed in three years.

In contrast, most full-time MBA programs can be completed in two years. This is perhaps the biggest advantage of pursuing an MBA compared to the CFA® designation, because it's likely to qualify you for a better paying job about a year earlier than the CFA® program will. If you're able to increase your compensation by $30,000 with an MBA, you will be making $30,000 more than you will be making in the CFA® program for an entire year.

Net Present Value of Certifications

I've developed a spreadsheet that computes the net present value of both the CFA® program and an MBA program. For illustration, here's a hypothetical scenario with the following assumptions:

Current Salary: $60,000
Cost of Capital: 5%
Time to Complete CFA® Program: 3 Years
Annual Cost of CFA® Program: $1,938
Projected Salary Post-CFA® Program: $100,000
Time to Complete MBA Program: 2 Years
Annual Cost of MBA Program: $35,000
Projected Salary Post-MBA Program: $100,000

Based on these assumptions, the Net Present Value ("NPV") of the CFA® program is $204,394 while the NPV of the MBA program is $177,884. This means that, based on these assumptions, the CFA® program is a better investment than an MBA program. However, a change in assumptions can change the answer. If you expect an MBA to deliver a higher salary than you expect after attaining your CFA® charter, the answer may be very different. We've made this spreadsheet available so that you can use your own assumptions and see what alternative has the most value for you.

Do You Want To Do Self-Study vs. The Classroom?

Perhaps the biggest difference between the CFA® program and an MBA is the learning format. The CFA® exam is essentially a self-study program that allows candidates to move at their own pace and study as their schedule permits. There are no classes to attend unless you choose to sign up for a review course (for a list of review courses, visit our test prep directory). There are no pop quizzes or progress exams, rather there is the equivalent of one big "final exam" for each level where you must be ready to apply everything you've studied.

The CFA® Institute does provide a recommended study timeline that can be used to gauge your progress as you approach the exam date. However, it's up to you to keep up and there will be nobody holding you to the schedule, so self-discipline is important particularly given the quantity of material covered at each level. A great number of very smart people have failed the CFA® exam simply because they procrastinated and were unable to catch up.

In contrast, a traditional MBA program has a great deal of structure since it's classroom based. Each class typically consists of several quizzes and exams so it's easy to tell when you fall behind. The learning format in an MBA program is also more likely to be lecture-based, whereas the learning format for the CFA® program is text-based.

Choosing a Certification to Pursue

For those individuals who are committed to a career in finance, the CFA® program offers a unique opportunity to learn while you work. Very few professions have access to comparable opportunities to earn a renowned designation through self-study at a relatively low cost. However, if you're relatively uncertain about a career in finance, an MBA may be a better choice since it applies to other fields.

In summary, there is no one-size-fits-all approach to continuing your education. Each individual brings a unique background with a unique set of goals. As such, it's important to assess your own situation to determine which opportunity is right for you before you make a significant investment of time and money."

For more information, please visit http://levacademy.com/blog.

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monty09:
1. cfa -your in less then 15% if you finish in three years(may be wrong but i know its very low) 2. mba - if you go to a top school your make more then 100k 3. caia - only helps if your in that market already
It's actually lower. The statistical odds of passing all three on your first try are roughly 4%. The realistic number I heard is around 10% of people pass in a straight shot. Anyone that downplays the long-term career benefits of the CFA is an idiot. That said, I would still like a Top MBA over the CFA, but why not have both?
My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.
 

I'd add that most of the buy-side PMs I've met are a CFA charterholder, so it definitely is important to go from the 300k to 500k+ earning range and move up the ladder.

That said, I've also met CFAs earning 50k as low-level analysts or working as journalists (some of the SeekingAlpha editors have CFAs and they make about 50k).

IMO: If you want to move up in MF/HF/PE world, a CFA will get you to the top, and passing level 1 or 2 may help you break in (but not by itself, you'll need a special background if you aren't coming in from IB-land). No one cares about MBAs on the sell side or buy side.

Also--I hadn't even heard of CAIA before today, so that should tell you something.

 

Definitely not an ad for a CAIA. I have the books, and they are not that useful. I personally do not know anyone who has it. Great to get feedback. The CFA is definitely not required for banking, but is definitely a worthwhile credential.

 

The percentage of people who pass is very low, about 30-40% for level I, then 40% level II and III. The question is if .3 * .4 * .4 makes a 5% pass rate...probably not, wouldn't make sense.

 

no that really doesn't make sense USC. If I am someone who passes the first time on L1, then it doesn't necessarily mean I only have 40% chance to pass L2. The 5% doesn't take into account people who fail multiple times on the same test and bring down the average. If you pass 1 and 2 the first time, you more than likely have a greater than 40% chance to pass L3 the first time.

 

MBA from top 5 school > CFA > MBA from everywhere else. All other designations are hit or miss depending on which firm and what job you're doing.

Also, a CFA is not obtained by passing 3 exams. To add the 3 letters, you must have 48 months of "relevant" job experience. And if you're in a relevant job already, you're probably already making $100k+. Getting the CFA only looks good on paper (aka, less chance of getting weeded out on electronic applications for jobs). It also makes the headhunter drool a little bit when they gloss over your resume.

CFA doesn't add $ to you salary. What it can do is make you slightly more qualified to finding the next job.

 

I'm currently studying CFA (appear L1 in Dec 2011) I have around 4 years of Fund Accounting & Portfolio Valuations back office experience. I have a bachelors degree in Accounting. I was last working as a Team Leader in India in one of the US based IB. I have recently quit my job to study for CFA & Chartered Accountancy (of India). Quite unsure after reading this material if I'm on the right path?

 

Heres an idea: pose a question on WSO that has historically drawn large amounts of posters, said posters and guests view the link to the blog I cleverly placed at the bottom of an overly long post no one actually read through, and increase traffic for my blog...Brilliant!

Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art - Andy Warhol
 
ERGOHOC:
MBA from top B-School trumps all. Even if you're not going into finance afterwards, a top b-school in your resume will get you "anywhere"

Yup. The CFA has become oversaturated. You have back office types who pass it and are unable to get into a front-office investing or research role.

Meanwhile, people at M7 b-schools, without any relevant experience, easily get interviews at the top investment management firms. A CFA is a nice certificate to have once you're already in the industry while a top MBA completely transforms your career trajectory. Big difference.

 
Brady4MVP:
ERGOHOC:
MBA from top B-School trumps all. Even if you're not going into finance afterwards, a top b-school in your resume will get you "anywhere"

Yup. The CFA has become oversaturated. You have back office types who pass it and are unable to get into a front-office investing or research role.

Meanwhile, people at M7 b-schools, without any relevant experience, easily get interviews at the top investment management firms. A CFA is a nice certificate to have once you're already in the industry while a top MBA completely transforms your career trajectory. Big difference.

What do you think about people that use the CFA to bolster their MBA opportunities at top schools? My goal is to have the CFA designation before pursuing an MBA. I imagine it would be seen favorably by the more quantitative programs.
My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.
 

Well, in capital budgeting, you need to account for opportunity costs (economic perspective)... You can't just account for tuitions fees.

Depending on the hourly wage and the time spent on studying, the forgone income translate into a huge opportunity cost. Assuming 300 hours are spent on the CFA (Level I only) with a $30 hourly wage (assuming no bonus for the sake of simplicity) --> $9,000. Adding to that the preparation materials... The CFA is much more expensive than it seems...

'Look at the big things while they are still small...'
 
Drawrof:
Well, in capital budgeting, you need to account for opportunity costs (economic perspective)... You can't just account for tuitions fees.

Depending on the hourly wage and the time spent on studying, the forgone income translate into a huge opportunity cost. Assuming 300 hours are spent on the CFA (Level I only) with a $30 hourly wage (assuming no bonus for the sake of simplicity) --> $9,000. Adding to that the preparation materials... The CFA is much more expensive than it seems...

The marginal hourly rate of a salaried job is $0. You probably save money by sacrificing some of your social life.

 
Best Response

in this economy you need anything that can give you an edge - everybody here who says a CFA doesn't matter doesn't have one

if you have the choice of drinking beer every weekend with the boys or studying for the CFA and getting it - go get it - it can only make you more competitive - i have 23 months qualifiable experience but got laid off - im taking the exams while working at a job that doesn't qualify towards the experience.

IF I ever re-enter I will have the tests complete and will need just another 25 months of qualifiable experience - i am also applying for a part-time mba that is a top 25 program

more quality credentials help you out - PERIOD

Hard work pays off - this is America. There is no for sure shot on how to make it. I have known people that have went to Booth had great jobs, then lost it, then bounced around for years. There is no recipe for success. I know somebody with a 4th tier law degree making 1M+ doing DWI law. There are so many ways to make it in this country. You don't need a MBA from a top business school to do money management. The biggest firms hire there, but if you are good you get noticed. Just bust your ass and get in the best places you can and do your best. That's all you can do afterall.

 
jknasse2:

in this economy you need anything that can give you an edge - everybody here who says a CFA doesn't matter doesn't have one

if you have the choice of drinking beer every weekend with the boys or studying for the CFA and getting it - go get it - it can only make you more competitive - i have 23 months qualifiable experience but got laid off - im taking the exams while working at a job that doesn't qualify towards the experience.

I realize this post is long dead, but since it was bumped, I think this quote provides a bit of a cautionary tale. Credentials matter, to be certain. However, this poster may have been better served "choosing to drink beer with the boys" and building his network rather than studying for another piece of paper. The credential - MBA, CFA, whatever other alphabet soup you want to add to your name - is just the barrier to entry. A solid network will create many more opportunities than another frame on the wall.

 
OnGBanker:
jknasse2 wrote:
in this economy you need anything that can give you an edge - everybody here who says a CFA doesn't matter doesn't have one
if you have the choice of drinking beer every weekend with the boys or studying for the CFA and getting it - go get it - it can only make you more competitive - i have 23 months qualifiable experience but got laid off - im taking the exams while working at a job that doesn't qualify towards the experience.

I realize this post is long dead, but since it was bumped, I think this quote provides a bit of a cautionary tale. Credentials matter, to be certain. However, this poster may have been better served "choosing to drink beer with the boys" and building his network rather than studying for another piece of paper. The credential - MBA, CFA, whatever other alphabet soup you want to add to your name - is just the barrier to entry. A solid network will create many more opportunities than another frame on the wall.

This argument has always seems very weak to me. You can't network every day, people don't want to drink on Mondays, and you will run out of relevant people in your sector to speak with (unless you just want anything in IBD, in which case your story will likely have little flow / rationale). I see no reason to not have both.
"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 

Really depends on what you want to do -

Accounting? CPA

Consulting/switch careers/get a fresh start? MBA (although the value of this goes down exponentially as you go down the tiers i.e. Harvard/Wharton etc. MBA = awesome; Wichita State MBA = not-very-awesome)

Corp Finance-ish gig? CFA (unless you get into a top MBA)

Disclaimer - I'm pretty sure I want to get an MBA/MS in something, and don't know all that much about the CFA program. Anyone else who knows more, please feel free to correct me!

 

I disagree about CFA for Corp Fin. Here's how I'd see it:

MBA: If from a top program, it will open up the most doors and the greatest variety of doors. You can do IB/PE/HF/Consulting, etc. from a top-tier MBA, but you can also pursue corporate finance jobs, general management, marketing, etc. If you get into a good program that gets recruited for the companies you want, I'd say this is probably the best just because of the variety, but a lot of people will say that it's value diminishes rapidly once you move down the rankings list.

CPA: This is good for accounting, but is also pretty solid for corporate roles as well. Lots of Controllers, CFOs, financial analysts have CPA designations, so it's useful for accounting or FP&A type of roles. It's not that useful for IB (doesn't hurt though because it signals that you know your accounting well) and it's pretty irrelevant for the PE/HF universe, but if you want to do corporate finance, cost accounting, or maybe corporate development, it's not good to have. I know people will challenge me on the corp dev part, but at least in my experience, I've met more than a few corp dev guys who have a CPA even though it's not the majority (most have an IB/MBB background), so I think it's possible if you do well in your other finance roles within the company and impress the right people..

CFA: I can't comment on this as much, but I've heard it's useful for Asset Management, equity research, and hedge funds. It won't get you a job necessarily, but it shows that you have a good base in finance (obviously) and it shows that you are dedicated to grind through all those tests, so it's pretty viable if you want to get into the aforementioned segments. You can also do it while working (my friend did this), so it's also useful for people looking to change careers. I've also heard it's useful for treasury type of roles in corporate finance, but I can't comment too much on that either.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these, but those are my thoughts based on my research, my discussions with professionals, and what I've read on here.

 

It really depends on what you mean by "steering your career towards a finance direction."

If you want to work in a typical corporate finance role (controller, CFO, treasury, etc.) then the CPA will be helpful and CFA will be almost completely useless. In fact you'll never get to become a charterholder even if you pass the tests - you need 4 years of investment management or advisory experience. The CPA alone won't open doors up on its own...you'll either have to network hard or go through a MBA program.

If you want to work in banking then your best best is MBA program, or maybe taking some of those Training the Street modeling classes + lots of hard networking and a willingness to start as a first year analyst. CFA exams have very little application to Ibanking; CPA has some but it's probablly not worth the time and effort.

If you want to work at a mutual fund or asset manager then the CFA and/or MBA is best path forward.

 

CFA is very narrow --- only a specific field within finance -- portfolio management. Other fields like banking or fund of funds wont' really need it. FOr equity research it can be helpful.

My buddy is taking CFA Level 2 -- it is a ton of material, great to learn but almost certainly you'll never use it unless you're in the field of portfolio management. It seriously sucks up months out of his life. And in the end, is it worth it? Well...risk averse ppl just want certifications...something to hold on to...so there's that at least.

 

Of course, given what I do now, I would vote for an MBA, in that it gives you a lot of options. I can tell you, after working in Asset Management for three investment management firms, including Barclays Global Investors (now BlackRock) and Franklin Templeton Investments, that indeed, the CFA is valued by those in portfolio management. At some of those firms, believe it or not, the MBA is not required, but helpful.

If you are interested in doing deals, that is investment banking, private equity or M&A work, then you do need an MBA to get your foot in the door. If you are transactional, then a CPA probably won't help that much, and you may find that you are coerced into roles that are less client-facing (not as lucrative or fun?)

If you do decide to take random securities courses, one of the benefits might be to network with others in that industry so you can learn more about what other options are out there. You have lots of choices, and it looks like a good record so far, both of which will help you in this journey.

Good luck!

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 
DickFuld:

How certain are you that #1 gets you to the spot you want internally? Reading between the lines, it doesn't seem you think it's a real high probability.

Honestly, id say maybe 33% - 50% to get into our fund business. I could get into our relationship management/sales for our funds with no question (which is still much better than what I am doing now).

 

My vote is for the CFA. If you want to do FO AM, the CFA is a requirement for most jobs. If you don't have the motivation to study for it how does your firm know you're going to work hard to make the right investment decisions? Just have completed level 1 can help you make the transition and will probably be more beneficial than a no name MBA.

 
datguy345:

Just got promoted today to a decent position that may help me break into Asset Management at my current asset management firm. I have cake hours, low stress and a raise. With all of this time, I need something else to do with my time...

1. MBA - I am in a midwest city (not chicago ), and my company will pay 90% of my MBA costs. Also, since my company is a large Asset Management, if I can break into the asset management side, id stay for life. This is probably my least preferred option, but my most achievable. I spoke with someone from the Asset Management division today, and I was told that they may hire internally for post MBA positions. Plus there is no way on God's green earth that I can afford a top MBA on my own.

2. CFA - The most sensible and cheapest, but honestly, I doubt my ability to actually complete the program. Plus very few make it through all 3 levels.

3. Nothing - Work like a dog, network, save and try to get to NYC or Chicago and find a job there in 1-2 years.

Looking at PWM (most sensible and achievable), or AM (if i stay with my current company)

I already have about 2 years of FT WE, and a shitton of debt that I need pay back.

Don't forget the CFP for PWM, it's much more achievable than the CFA and is a good sales tool. It teaches you a different skillset but it is still interesting. I have both. If you buckle down you can self study the CFP and have it done within a year. I took 9 months from starting the courses to passing the exam.

If you get CFA level I down that can go on a resume but it seems a waste of time if you're not dedicated to finishing. That being said, if you want to enter other Asset Management roles or are seeking a research position it is a no brainer. It will be hard to move around if you don't have your CFA. For FO PWM I really think the CFP is an equal value proposition - less prestigious to recruiters but more valuable when facing 90% of clients. Any other certification outside of these two is a waste of time.

The MBA is more of a personal decision. For me, I decided only a top MBA was worth my time. I've met a few people who do Booth's part time remotely (they fly in for classes every week and back out for work), this is a more affordable way to get an elite name on your resume but is a big commitment. If you're staying in the midwest you could also just pick the best school in the city you're in (IU, Tepper, Carlson, etc). This should help with networking locally but obviously these schools don't have the same pull outside of your region.

Nothing is stopping you from applying to PWM roles now (other AM roles will probably require CFA I or II down for you to get a serious look). I guess what it comes down to is whether you prefer to do research & excel modelling or if you want to work with families in a relationship oriented role. The jobs are very different.

 

What kind of b-school gives you an "offer" straight from undergrad? Yale Silver Scholar? HBS 2+2? Who else?

Unless you're in getting into one of those top programs, first thing you should be doing is getting a job. Then worry about MBA or CFA.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 

I'm with Flake, focus on the job first.

beyond that, MBA is good for career switching, CFA is good for checking a box and may be needed to move up within your company.

for example, if I was a ER associate and all the VPs had CFAs, I know I have to get it. alternatively, let's say I wanted to switch out of my current role to something completely different, I'd go to b school. I can study for the GMAT in a relatively short period of time and get all of my apps in within 1 year.

all of that said, you shouldn't do b school straight from undergrad. maybe msf if you went to a shit school, but otherwise focus on getting paid.

 

This topic has been debated to death. There's nothing you are asking that hasn't been answered over and over. Do a quick search on this forum.

AVN Award Winner
 

I started the CFA track when I was in corporate finance...Depending upon your industry and your exact job, it probably won't have much impact on how you do in your daily responsibilities.

I did find that it helped me stand-out as "driven" and also assisted with ad-hoc project work.

I think it will be tough to actually get the charter with only FP&A work experience, though.

 

As a charterholder, I think it would be a huge waste of time for someone with an MBA and no future Asset Management / ER career aspirations. Too much of the curriculum is too irrelevant to warrant the time commitment. Given the fact that it is a new role, I think your time would be better spent focusing on work and becoming a valuable member of your team.

 

I always pictured doing an MBA full-time and then completing the CFA part-time after you're finished with the MBA and have a job would be the perfect plan.. :) but that could vary for differnet people.

 

It depends on what you want to do. If you are interested in being a fundamental equity analyst, some shops will not care if you are an MBA or not -- in fact, in some places, it's considered a waste of time (when I was at Barclays Global Investors, they had no time for MBAs, but BlackRock has more stockpicking). Also, if you are in fixed income do you really need a CFA or would you do better to get a Master of Financial Engineering?
The MBA degree has many, many benefits: leadership, networking, and 2 years of what may feel like camp. But the CFA is very marketable as well. Once, I actually saw a professor in a Stanford GSB defer to a CFA in an investment management class. I also saw someone who never would have gotten into any business school because he barely graduated from college get into several mid-tier business schools because he had cleaned up his act and earned his CFA. (and is now in fixed income asset mgt)

so what does this tell you? It's up to you and what you want to do. More doors will open for you with the MBA, but it really depends, as you alluded to in your original post, on how deep you want to go. What's your dream role?

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

Speaking from experience, if you have a CFA, you can customize your MBA coursework so there's not much overlap. You'll probably be able to waive the basic finance courses and take more electives. I disagree with the overall characterization of depth vs. breadth. An MBA definitely has more breadth, but you can get pretty deep as well in some of the upper level electives.

I am wise because I know that I know nothing -Socrates
 
monikajudd:
Thanks Macroecon,

I don't think at Haas you have access to on-campus recruiting if you are doing a part-time MBA. Is it really hard or impossible to break into doing a part-time MBA. I know the general route is a full-time MBA.

Thanks

If you don't have access to OCR, it will be virtually impossible.

As far as salary differences, I think base is similar at all those. Bonuses are far too discretionary to make a definitive assessment.

 
monikajudd:
Thanks Macroecon,

I don't think at Haas you have access to on-campus recruiting if you are doing a part-time MBA. Is it really hard or impossible to break into doing a part-time MBA. I know the general route is a full-time MBA.

Thanks

What makes you say that? http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/EWMBA/StudentHandbook/careercent.html
 

I'm not very familiar with the US MBA system, but as a CFA charterholder, there's a lot of limitations when it comes to using it for job hunting. Mainly that people only really care if you have passed level 1 and if you are a full Charterholder. And the exams are hard, with pass rates of 40%.

To put it this way: If you go for June exams and budget for failing a single year, you would be looking at 4 years, and at that point you couldn't even put CFA after your name as you lack the work experience.

The CFA level 1 may be a different matter. If you hold it, it signals some basic knowledge and interest. You can also sit the exam twice a year. I wouldn't really feel there's a significant improvement of having passed level 2 over simply level 1, and the time budget would be a lot larger.

Hence you could consider doing both. Get the CFA books and the Schweser notes aiming initially for a June sitting then resit in November if you fail. The syllabus only changes between years. Do the part-time MBA at the same time.

 

A CFA is absolutely unnecessary for a career in IB (esp if you went to Brown and Wharton). With that said, to the extent that you ever anticipate pursuing a career in IM or ER then it is more applicable.

No luck during recruiting in IB at Wharton or did you not pursue IB? Your situation and question seem a bit bizarre given that Wharton generally has great placement into IB although someone mentioned the other day that unemployment is nearing 10% and we were in a recession.

 

For various reasons that I won't go into here I didn't do any on-campus recruiting, so I wouldn't read into my personal circumstances. Basically my plan A turned out to be impossible given my current economic means and the current economy, so I'm back to the drawing board. I am interested in finance but at present the number of post-MBA finance jobs seems to be really thin and most postings that I have seen require previous finance experience, which I don't have. Non-CFA related tips for breaking in are also welcome of course.

It is however true that my class probably had the worst recruiting year in recent memory and I certainly know classmates who were recruiting for IB and did not find jobs. A lot of banks that in previous years were major employers didn't even bother to come to campus (assuming they were still in business of course). I think the career stats are due out in about a month and I expect them to be pretty painful. I wouldn't be surprised to see an order of magnitude increase in the number students who didn't find a job.

Hope I didn't depress people who are considering an MBA ... I fully expect things to bounce back to normal for the long term. I think it was just my class that got the shaft.

 

I think either the CFA or CPA (or both) would be great credentials for anyone who wants to pursue a long-term career in finance- downside to the CFA is that it takes four years of related experience to get the charter so short term advantages in recruiting will not be as helpful- but Level 1/2 have similar content to FNCE 717, 720 and 725; L2 has alot of overlap with ACCT 201/202 (not sure what the graduate course is numbered)...

The CPA can be earned faster- especially since the exam eligibility requirements are not that strict for people who have masters degrees. The advantage to not working now is you have the time to really learn the material well, so you could potentially take some accounting classes at your local CC/university this term, take L1 of the CFA in December and sit for the CPA exams by early 2010. If you had CFA L1 and L2 and the CPA exams by next June, and an MBA from Wharton, I don't really know what else could be expected from you to land a job in fundamental investing (at least when the hiring market returns to some sense of normalcy)...

In the mean time, the NYTimes had a great article yesterday about young professionals temping/volunteering until the right job comes along. It probably won't be IB, but HBS and Stanford grads generally don't work for investment banks for some reason, so there must be more out there.

 

Depends on your interest. The general feeling is that for IB CPA is more valuble and for Asset Management CFA is the thing. But even for IB, my personal belief is that one can learn alot of relevant finance stuff through the CFA.

CPA requires alot less time than the CFA, so if you're in a hurry maybe CPA is the way to go. You can always get the CPA first and then work toward the CFA.

Also remember that most IB guys have crazy hours so they can't really put in the effort for the CFA ( which is a potential reason they don't like it much ). Not so for AM guys who have better hours.

All this aside, a Wharton MBA will do lots for you anyway - maybe it's just a function of time.

Hope this helps

 

I think the best thing to do is to reach out to people from your past work ( if that is finance related )and find a link to someone in IB. In which field was your work ex pre MBA ?

The above tip of going to the Career Office is a great idea too. Contacting alumni can be helpful as well.

You've got more than enough to get into IB for sure so networking is probably the key.

 

A slightly belated update: I somehow managed to land a buy-side corporate development / M&A role, so I landed OK. It gives me an interesting perspective on the whole investment banking thing now that I'm the one they are pitching to. Very surreal.

I really appreciate the WallStreetOasis community for being so supportive with my naive question. We'll see if I can give anything back. Because of the size of the deals I work on I mostly work with the boutiques and middle market firms, not the bulge bracket firms that everyone here seems to want to get into, but that's given me an interesting perspective as well.

 

Which industry? Investment advisory, or are you looking to switch to something else in the future?

“...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” - Schopenhauer
 

[quote=Linfone]CFA is cheaper. If you're going AM, then do CFA... higher NPV.[/quote

It depends. If someone is not in IM and wants to break in, an MBA from a top school will make the transition MUCH easier. I know so many people who passed the CFA, hoping they can break into ER or IM and have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, people at hbs/wharton/booth with no previous experience are able to get jobs in IM due to campus recruiting and the strength of their schools' name brand.

 

I know a VP in ER at a BB who did 1 CFA exam every year for her first three years as alternative to an MBA. So she did her CFA right out of school. It was recommended by her company, so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

“...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” - Schopenhauer
 

Honestly assumming you do IA work at some MSSB type place, I would apply to get your MBA/ MFIN, and if you get in somewhere good, just quit your job in April and spend May cramming for Level I. That way when the summer intern hiring starts you can have that you passed L I on your resume. That should make the first step into analyst work easier.

For L II I'd wait until your second year of B-School once you've sewn up a full time job. At that point course work won't be too hard, and you should be able to knock out Level II right after you graduate assuming Early May graduation, and July start on your analyst gig. That way you'll have the study time booked during the year, and the month of May again to pound Level II. Ideally you'll start your analyst gig with the first two levels under your belt. Coming from someone who works as an AM analyst, I can't tell you how much of a help it is to have knocked out the first 2 legs before you start FT.

 

CFA is tough, and you’ll face stiff competition getting a job in the field of finance, but certification will qualify you for better job prospects. According the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, you might earn $135,000 a year. The average salary of a person with an MBA in Finance is around $100,000 a year. Your earning capacity would also depend on where you did your MBA program – earning a degree from a prestigious business school would put you way ahead of the rest. Don’t think about MBA programs unless you’re thinking B-schools in the top 50 ranking, or close to that.

 
DanielBrown:
CFA is tough, and you’ll face stiff competition getting a job in the field of finance, but certification will qualify you for better job prospects. According the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, you might earn $135,000 a year. The average salary of a person with an MBA in Finance is around $100,000 a year. Your earning capacity would also depend on where you did your MBA program – earning a degree from a prestigious business school would put you way ahead of the rest. Don’t think about MBA programs unless you’re thinking B-schools in the top 50 ranking, or close to that.
Thanks for that?
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

B-schools are impressed with CFA designation on applications and the preparation for the CFA whether it's level 1, 2, or 3 is super prep for b-school. Many say CFA is more difficult than MBA in fact. As for which will help your career more, that's a good question and arguments can be made on either side depending on your industry and career track. In general, the MBA is more versatile and more universally recognized. For example, when you look at job postings, rarely do they say CFA required, but often you will see MBA required (or preferred). Just something to think about. I agree with above posts that it's feasible to do both.

Bryant Michaels Veritas Prep Consulting
 

I believe best plan of attack is to work for a couple of years in whatever role and do your CFA. Get to that designation with roughly 3 years of fulltime experience. You should have a strong base of financial theory and strong business accumen. At this stage go for your GMAT and get into a top MBA. I want to go into a top MBA program, not to enhance my career prospects but to challenge how i think about things. I think it would be n excellent experience to do case after case after case. CFA is enough to enhance your career IMO, I would do top MBA because I want to prove myself that I can get to that level.

 

I believe best plan of attack is to work for a couple of years in whatever role and do your CFA. Get to that designation with roughly 3 years of fulltime experience. You should have a strong base of financial theory and strong business accumen. At this stage go for your GMAT and get into a top MBA. I want to go into a top MBA program, not to enhance my career prospects but to challenge how i think about things. I think it would be n excellent experience to do case after case after case. CFA is enough to enhance your career IMO, I would do top MBA because I want to prove myself that I can get to that level.

 

In my opinion, no value whatsoever. CFA is decent if you're looking to get into equity research and institutional buyside (mutual funds, etc.). The only advantage a CFA could give you towards PE or VC is to show you have an interest in finance and can handle technical financial problems and valuation. But you already have an MBA, so that's not necessary.

Just take a look at bios for team members in PE. Barely anyone has their CFA.

I also think the MS is a bad idea. If you don't have a pre-MBA banking background, my advice would be to get into banking as an associate then move to PE from there, or get work experience in a field that interest you related to VC, and then jump to VC as an experienced professional in about 5-10 years.

 

for an MBA you seem pretty uneducated about VC. It doesn't look for financial whiz kids, you need a tech background, entrepreneur experience etc.

for PE, CFA/MS is useless. Unless you are a networking goddess the train has long left the station and you have no chance because of the 2nd tier MBA and no background, even in this red hot job environment.

btw what job are you at now?

 

Hi,

Well, first of all, thanks for sharing your experience. It gave good insight for sure.

Well, however, this is an interesting thing to know that there is no use of CFA degree for getting into PE/VC, even indirectly !! Well, as far as bios of VCs are concerned, for sure, many of them have tech background and/or some entrepreneurial consulting background. However, after looking at good bunch of profile of VCs only, I thought of CFA. Many of them had CFA. (they might have used that to get into Goldman ..as Goldman, for sure, hires a lot of CFAs !!).

I do know that some tech background and/or some entrepreneurial background required !! However, I have seen people getting into this with vertical Finance experience too. Till now, I am not able to leverage my Tech degree and/or experience. Could be because of lack of long-experience !! I have an undergrad in Technology and my current job is with Rolls Royce - I am SAP - Finance & Controlling - Tech Senior Consultant !!

As GameTheory mentioned, I-Banking route could be a good one and in fact, in that regard, only, I was considering for CFA. Whether CFA will help me for getting into some top-banks as an associate with my Second-Tier MBA. And then, after working getting some financial restructuring experience, probably if I can make shift to VC.

 

Hi,

Well, first of all, thanks for sharing your experience. It gave good insight for sure.

Well, however, this is an interesting thing to know that there is no use of CFA degree for getting into PE/VC, even indirectly !! Well, as far as bios of VCs are concerned, for sure, many of them have tech background and/or some entrepreneurial consulting background. However, after looking at good bunch of profile of VCs only, I thought of CFA. Many of them had CFA. (they might have used that to get into Goldman ..as Goldman, for sure, hires a lot of CFAs !!).

I do know that some tech background and/or some entrepreneurial background required !! However, I have seen people getting into this with vertical Finance experience too. Till now, I am not able to leverage my Tech degree and/or experience. Could be because of lack of long-experience !! I have an undergrad in Technology and my current job is with Rolls Royce - I am SAP - Finance & Controlling - Tech Senior Consultant !!

As GameTheory mentioned, I-Banking route could be a good one and in fact, in that regard, only, I was considering for CFA. Whether CFA will help me for getting into some top-banks as an associate with my Second-Tier MBA. And then, after working getting some financial restructuring experience, probably if I can make shift to VC. However, that looks a long-route !!

 

Nope. Not lot !! Well, for sure, their hiring preference is MBA. However, there are good number of CFAs too. Checking CFA Institute Website will give a good idea about it, that GS hires CFAs. Not only GS, Meriyll Linch and JPM, too !!

Yes, however, I am not sure if they are for associate role or any other corporate finance role. However, GS Corp. Finance experience too, seems to be important in VC circle. I am not sure, but perspective from you, will surely give some idea !!

 

I didn't check the website but if it doesn't delineate between corporate finance or research I am almost positive most CFA's enter into things like research, and not IBD.

As I'm sure you know your chances of entering PE without pre-MBA banking or consulting experience, no pre-MBA PE experience, no top tier MBA, makes it extremely difficult to enter into PE at this point. That said, if you can score a job at a good investment bank doing something like tech or healthcare, or even energy you may have a chance at a focused VC fund. If you do something like M&A or Leveraged Finance you will fair better towards PE.

A top tier consulting job may offer similar options but not as reliably as IB. And, like I said before, extremely difficult given your lack of experience. But if that is what you know you want to do, by all means go for it.

 

You need to wait another 10 to 15 years if you can't get into PE post-MBA. Go out and get some real operational experience managing a business and then try to hit PE firms from that angle.

Spending a 2 or 3 years as an Associate after MBA is an extremely low percentage path. There are fewer PE jobs at that level. And the competition is pretty much every Associate out there thinking the same thing.

Add to that the fact that an i-banking Associate is bringing very few skills to a PE fund that a cheaper, pre-MBA analyst doesn't have.

I would advise you to find a meaningful operational role, see how that goes and then try to make the transition as someone with a real, unique skillset.

 

isn't CFA level one the real easy one where one doesn't even really have to study to pass? I heard only level three indicates any real separation in knowledge from the masses...

 

maybe it's because all the dropouts were already screened out at level one and two. therefore, those who are left and going for level three are naturally more likely to pass.

 

Level I is the easiest level - just weeds out those who arent dedicated. Saying that its really easy and not having to study however is a bit of an exaggeration.

Level II is most difficult based on large amounts of accounting

Level III is gaining rep of becoming more difficult that is has been in the past - has high passing rate because candidates can finally see the light after passing level II.

 

Value of the CFA?

Shows the I-Banks that you're a real keener for Finance. That's what a guy at GS said during our info session. Is it practically useful? Maybe more so in Asset Management later on but they like you if you're doing it while in your last year undergrad or during your MBA.

To them its an example of multitasking, time management, dedication and hard work. What more do they want from prospective monkeys? Whether you're in IBD, ECM, DCM, Research...its the character/personality test that will win over the interviewer. The CFA is an extra chip.

 

I'm pretty sure you need work experience if you plan on attending any decent MBA program. Same goes for the CFA. You can pass 3 levels but won't become a CFA charter holder until you have 4 years of qualified work experience.

Start networking now via alumni, wso, and linkedin. If all else fails, attend a 1 yr MSF program at a more 'target' school.

Disclaimer for the Kids: Any forward-looking statements are solely for informational purposes and cannot be taken as investment advice. Consult your moms before deciding where to invest.
 

personally, i think applying to an mba program straight out of college is not a great idea. top business schools look for candidates who have experience so that they can contribute to the class experience. if you go straight from undergrad - and from a non-target - you'll likely end up in a 15+ ranked b-school, so I don't think you'll position will change dramatically. also, if you are strapped for cash, wouldn't you want to make some money first, save, and then have some cushion before you sink yourself into a $100K hole? just a thought.

you don't necessarily have to have a really difficult time finding a job in new york. getting a front-office role at a bulge bracket, however, is a completely different story. you're a sophomore, so you have time. I would look at interning at some boutique close to home this summer. you may not get paid. no matter. you might have to eat scraps, but do whatever it takes to get your foot in the door and gain some sort of worthwhile experience. you'll be better positioned for your junior year internship, and hopefully you're previous experience will set you up for a better-branded bank.

if you finish at the top of your class, demonstrate you are extremely sharp with your finance skills (look into BIWS, buy the Rosenbaum and Pearl books, look at other resources), and network your ass off, then you can definitely get the job you are looking for.

it won't be easy, but hey, it's not suppose to be.

good luck

Capitalist
 

Thanks, I appreciate it. Yeah I know it is not the best decision to do that out of undergrad. As I have been told. And the more and more I hear this, I lean further away from it. Only reason I have been considering is because we are simply ignored down here. Which is why I regret my university decision so much. I have applied for hundreds, literally hundreds, of internships and have rarely even received a response. I ended up having to take a BS intern position with AXA Equitable (the worst company ever) this Fall. I didn't want to do it, but I figured it was better than nothing. I have been rigorously applying for a summer internship back home around the NYC area and have not received any responses. I have been networking via alumni and family friends but nothing seems to work. Very frustrating to say the least. The Alumni out of USC really sucks, and they don't like helping us out. So I am at a loss of options..

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

If you are interested in finance why don't you look into doing a few years at Wells Fargo or BofA in Charlotte before going for an MBA. I'm sure there are plenty of Gamecocks in Charlotte who can help you out, and as much as you talk shit about the south, Charlotte is not that bad.

 

Yes, very true. I know a couple guys that have received jobs out of College to BofA, and they said they love it. Charlotte would really be my only exception. I'm just a city boy at heart, and cant really picture myself living and working in NC. Besides those two companies, there really isn't anything else around here. Which is why after College I originally planned to move back home and test my luck up there. Do you guys know non-target graduates, from the Southeast specifically, getting jobs in NYC or Chicago?

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

There are a ton of boutique firms in Charlotte, many of which provide kids from the Southeast with good NYC buy-side exit opportunities (see McColl Partners, Edgeview Partners). As a South Carolina student, Charlotte is most likely your best bet -- and you won't regret it a whole lot when you're making street-level compensation and paying under $1000 for your apartment in the city center. Just my $0.02.

 

Yes I will look into those, thanks. I appreciate the positivity, but I really do not want to live in Charlotte. If i absolutely have to, than so be it. That is my worst case scenario. I don't know what it is about Charlotte, maybe the people, the atmosphere, who knows. But i just don't like it and would not enjoy living in North Carolina... I am from New Jersey, that's where i want to be. What are other ways to apply for jobs/internships besides filling out the actual online application for them? Have you guys had success cold calling or emailing, or maybe even getting informational interviews that lead to real interviews? I have lost all hope in USC's career center and jobmate website. I can't find anything even half decent on there. Any ideas?

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 
Baronec:
Yes I will look into those, thanks. I appreciate the positivity, but I really do not want to live in Charlotte. If i absolutely have to, than so be it. That is my worst case scenario.
Your worst case scenario is going back to mom and dad's house with your tail between your legs unemployed. In this market you need to keep an open mind...hopefully you can fake liking Charlotte really well, because people down there are wary of folks from the Northeast ;-)
 

I went to USC. I worked on an ECM desk at a boutique in Charlotte and then a different one on an FI desk before getting out of the industry. USC isn't going to open a lot of doors for you as I never came across many alums. Judging by the number of e-mails I'd get from kids in school there must not be a whole bunch of alums anywhere in IB. You're going to have to network and it would help if you had something unique to offer. If you interview in Charlotte and have an attitude about the city you're going to have a steep hill to climb.

 

Sorry let me say this in a better way. I don't mean in to the point that i will not apply for jobs in Charlotte. I was just saying that I typically would not want to, as i have never ever pictured myself working/living down here. I always saw it as an option, but I never even considered it. But yes I can see that it is clearly my best option, thank you. I am considering this now but I would just hate going into a job out of College knowing that I only want to use this job to gain experience, or use this job to help me get the %$#@ out of here. Hopefully I will find something there when the time comes, but even for internships I have had no luck in the Charlotte area. Honestly I can see Charlotte being a good place to start

DonVon - Going back home may be a bad decision, but you cant call me a D-bag for liking the Metro area of the US more than the Southeast... I mean seriously. Its where I was born and raised, and I love the fast paced hustle and bustle lifestyle that Charlotte simply does not have, nor will it ever. Anyways, I will obviously apply for jobs in Charlotte and hopefully land a solid one. But like I was saying.. This is not my go to option. Hence why I created this thread. I was looking for more advice on how to successfully get interviews coming from a school like mine, not why I should learn to like a nearby "City."

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

You are putting the cart way before the horse. You go to the third or fourth best school in South Carolina. Very few people from USC end up in investment banking, particularly fresh out of undergrad. You would be very lucky to get a job in Charlotte. Furthermore, do you know how much bankers get paid in Charlotte? Do you know what the difference in cost of living is in Charlotte versus New York? I mean if you think working at an investment bank in Charlotte is so bad, imagine how much you're going to enjoy working at a credit union in Jersey.

 

I know the differences, it has nothing to do with the standard of living. Clearly I would be better off in Charlotte, I understand. I just do NOT like the Southeast. It is that simple. I get what you are saying. Luckily I will most luckily be transferring out of this place. I would much rather bust my ass off competing with the best in the world in NYC and get paid nearly nothing, than make a good living in North Carolina.

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

Don't waste your time applying to b-schools, most of the good ones aren't going to take you without work experience.

Your options are:

(1) Look for a MSF program at a better school that might get you access to NYC jobs. The MSF at UF places people on the street most years, though I haven't looked in a few years. Sure there are many more that would suit your needs.

(2) Search your alumni database hard core and try to find anyone on the street. Also cold call the hell out of people. Does it work? Sometimes. Mostly not, but neither does never picking up the phone.

(3) Take a job in ATL or CLT for 2 years, be miserable making street, or above street, pay...paying a shit ton less in cost of living and then apply to a real MBA program that will get you back to NYC.

Also consider taking a job in Charlotte and then just trying to network into a lateral position in NYC. Also think about Harris Williams in Richmond (I know, worse than Charlotte, right?) and doing the same. Also keep in mind that WF has NYC positions. A guy that interned for me a few years back got an SA position in NYC with Wells and got a FT offer to go back.

As others have pointed out...having a job is far better than having no job, regardless of where you live.

Smart money says apply everywhere you can, take the best job that you are offered and then work on the transition from there, with your bills paid, money in your pocket and relevant experience in the industry. Lastly, you need to work real hard to lose any sort of condescension toward Charlotte. The people there absolutely love it and they really don't want to hire or work with folks that don't share the same enthusiasm. When I interviewed with Wells back in the day, they were drilling folks from outside the south about what they liked about the city, why they wanted to be there, etc. because they knew many of them were just looking for a comfortable place to gain some experience why they find a job back home in NYC.

Also, Charlotte is actually a pretty great city and I'm sure Richmond isn't bad either. I get that you don't think you would like it, just as many people 'know' they wouldn't like being in NYC, but sometimes you just make the sacrifice you need to in order to get ahead.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

Thank you for your wisdom. That clears a lot of things up, and makes me feel a bit more positive about this situation. I will consider the MSF, but like you were saying I guess the best option is to take what I get. And go from there. Thanks

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

Born and raised in the Northern US and did USC’s part time MBA program while living in Charlotte. There were several folks in the MBA program that worked at BOA and Wells and it sounds like you might have a misconception about the city. Almost 2 million people in metro area, 2nd largest financial city to NYC, 18th largest city in the US.

The points made about the cost of living are spot on. You’d probably have to make 30-50% more in NYC to cover the cost of living change. I had a 15-year mortgage that cost me less than $1,000 a month while having access to downtown Charlotte with plenty of bars/restaurants, great year round weather, and short drives to the Appalachian mountains and ocean. The city is filled with young professionals and if I had to guess, I’d say more than 50% are transplants from northern cities so it doesn’t even feel like you’re in the “south”.

Not trying to sell you on Charlotte but just wanted to give my 2 cents. I’m in a similar boat taking the CFA next June to try to transition to Asset Management. I can tell you we have a tougher road then someone with a top tier degree but it is not impossible.

 

If your GPA is really good, and if you are really serious about getting a great job post undergrad to boost your chances of a great MBA program admissions, you should look into transferring. Many Ivy League schools now offer loan free education to their undergrads including transfer students. This means that you will not have to graduate with tons of loans as you may think. You can even try transferring to other top state schools such as Virginia, and Chapel Hill. These schools will greatly improve your chances at landing a great job and together with the CFA will make you almost a shoe in at Top MBA programs. Look us up, we can help.

Admissions Advice Online - Google Me
 

Honestly, these days, it seems that prior work experience not only boosts your application profile, but also is becoming a requirement of sorts. This way, as your gaining work experience, you can also prep for the GMAT. You need to score really well on this in order to be accepted. I received my MBA from Babson College in Boston and it was the best career move I could've made. Best of luck to you!

 

You need to check your attitude a bit and re-align your goals.

Your first focus should be finishing out this semester with the best grades possible and securing an internship. You are a sophomore now correct? So you should be getting an internship if your aim is a big city firm.

And if USC is as crappy as you make it out to be your GPA should be 3.7+ and you should be on course to graduate summa cum laude.

 

Agree with the conclusion, but not the comparison. MBA is a managerial degree used to tack on to previous industry experience in pursuit of upper management. CFA is an in depth topic specific trade certification. One says you are competent in business, the other says you are an expert in a specific aspect of a specific field.

An MBA takes 2 years full time. A CFA requires 4 years of analyst-type experience, plus the 3 CFA levels, which can (at best, and very few succeed at this) be completed in a year and a half. So you're talking 2 years vs. anywhere from 5.5 to 7, 8, 10, even...

Naturally, past experience and individual skill levels are factors, but I never understood why people compared the two degrees to one another.

It's almost like saying, "heart clinic prefers cardiovascular surgeons to general practicioner doctor".

Clearly.

 

It wouldn't hurt.

I know a lot of students with computer science or engineering backgrounds who have the hard skills for quant jobs but zero knowledge of finance or economics, CFA would be perfect for them. However since you already have a master's in finance you should have a good grasp of what's going on. If you have the motivation and time then you should do it, the CFA material probably covers a lot more than your finance schooling did, but keep in mind that studying and passing all the tests could take 900+ hours even if you don't fail and re-take the test.

 

Not sure about the utility of the CFA in your circumstances. I think there is something more targeted to risk professionals called the FRM.

I guess the MBA is broad/general enough that it would be relevant to a lot of things. But given the analyst-->MBA-->Associate track is gradually eroding in the labour market where you're based, I would query the need for an MBA. In which case, just focus on kicking arse in your job and building strong networks within your company.

 

The CFA will show you have enough interest in investing, but won't do much else. First you should probably start by fixing your lazy attitude about school and get some drive. Second, when you say your firm sends people to Stern, is it full or part time? Part time gives you no access to on campus career placement for the most part. If it's full time, some big names do recruit, though they only pick one, if anyone. I highly doubt it'll be you if there are any other people that have previous banking, research, or investing experience. More importantly, if your company "sends" people to Stern, you'll likely have to stay another several years or pay them back. I woulnt consider Stern a non target MBA. The reality is that hedge funds simply don't usually go the MBA recruiting route. You would have to be a star applicant regardless for them to be interested. And you also need to pound the pavement networking. It's not a traditional structured path. You seem to be a bit full of yourself to be honest ( the whole Im so smart yet im above doing well on metrics that show I can achieve unless I feel like it-vibe). By the way, tests are merely a qualifier. For example, yes, you need to score 700+ to go to stern, but after that it only puts you at the next more competitive level in which recommendations, essays, work experience, your interview, and your character are what gets you an offer.

You need to do A LOT of work.

 

I am prepping for the level 1 now.

My impression is that an MBA is great for completely re-positioning yourself in a new field (i.e. banking --> consulting) and opening doors that may not have been open before (i.e. go to a mediocre undergrad, work for a while, do an MBA from a top school, and get recruiting options that you may otherwise not have access to).

CFA seems to help more when you already have a finance job and are looking to move up, though it does also seem to be helpful with switching jobs/career paths, depending on your prior work experience and other stuff.

 

For anyone interested in banking/PE, a CFA is honestly almost useless. I hesitate to say "always" because I'm sure it has helped a few people, but in general it is more helpful in other fields such as portfolio management. As Hayek said, it is more about moving up vs. re-positioning/re-branding yourself.

The MBA, by contrast, is really 100% about networking and new recruiting opportunities. If you've done something completely unrelated for years and want to break into finance, the MBA is your best bet (as long as it's at a top school where banks actually recruit).

So it really depends on your goals - if you've already done finance, an MBA will be less helpful than it would be for someone who has worked at non-profits for 5 years.

But if you're trying to break into banking/PE and already have a decent amount of experience elsewhere, the MBA is a much better bet than the CFA.

 

Thanks for your comments how relevent is the CFA for a Restructuring fund or distressed fund? I would eventually like to get into mezzanine financing, Leveraged buyout, or distressed debt. Thanks in advance

 
dipset1011:
Thanks for your comments how relevent is the CFA for a Restructuring fund or distressed fund? I would eventually like to get into mezzanine financing, Leveraged buyout, or distressed debt. Thanks in advance

In my (only somewhat valid) opinion I don't think it would help too much; it seems like landing a job at such a place would be far more dependent on prior work experience. Though it certainly isn't going to hurt.

 

A CFA is not relevant for most jobs in IBD. A CFA is used for IM careers. Based on your post you are not ready for either a CFA or an MBA as you haven't done any preliminary research (other than this post).

If you plan on joining the buyside or being involved in portfolio management then a CFA is a good opportunity. Note that you will need 3 years of relevant financial work experience to sit for the 3 levels of exams.

As far as an MBA...if you have absolutely no idea what you would like to do (other than I want to do banking) then you will need to gain at least a few years of work experience and craft a story of why b-school and why now?

 
junkbondswap:
A CFA is not relevant for most jobs in IBD. A CFA is used for IM careers. Based on your post you are not ready for either a CFA or an MBA as you haven't done any preliminary research (other than this post).

If you plan on joining the buyside or being involved in portfolio management then a CFA is a good opportunity. Note that you will need 3 years of relevant financial work experience to sit for the 3 levels of exams.

As far as an MBA...if you have absolutely no idea what you would like to do (other than I want to do banking) then you will need to gain at least a few years of work experience and craft a story of why b-school and why now?

not that you have done any research either. to do the CFA exams you don't need any work experience. however to get the charter, you'll need 4yrs experience under your belt.

 

CFA has the best ROI of any academic endeavor out there...2 and a half grand for a highly respected IM degree.

If you want to do banking, do an MBA major in banking, but doing the CFA as well is good measure.

I just passed level 2.... spent a whole year preparing on and off while working.

 

I would take top 15 MBA over CFA anyday, this is coming from somebody who's cleared all the levels.

Or just get both if you're that conflicted. Associate in my office is enrolled in both at the same time.

"I respect your courage for coming this far alone! However, you are still going to die!"
 

The CFA isn't what it used to be. 5-6 years ago you could be a back office guy, get your CFA, and have a reasonable chance of landing in some front office role somewhere.

Now too many people have it, employers realize that the stuff it tests isn't really applicable to most finance roles (unlike, say the CPA series of exams), and that having one doesn't generally do much to help the firm make money (the most important thing in the world for most buy side shops).

It's viewed now as something you get after you get the job in research or sales (basically, anyone who might get a bio put in front of a potential investor should be working toward the CFA because the layperson likes to see it).

The MBA still helps with networking and puts you back into the recruiting pool if you're at a decent school. The CFA doesn't do that and that's why I think the MBA > CFA to start. Doing them concurrently works, too.

 
NorthEastIdiot:
The CFA isn't what it used to be. 5-6 years ago you could be a back office guy, get your CFA, and have a reasonable chance of landing in some front office role somewhere.

Now too many people have it, employers realize that the stuff it tests isn't really applicable to most finance roles (unlike, say the CPA series of exams), and that having one doesn't generally do much to help the firm make money (the most important thing in the world for most buy side shops).

It's viewed now as something you get after you get the job in research or sales (basically, anyone who might get a bio put in front of a potential investor should be working toward the CFA because the layperson likes to see it).

The MBA still helps with networking and puts you back into the recruiting pool if you're at a decent school. The CFA doesn't do that and that's why I think the MBA > CFA to start. Doing them concurrently works, too.

I strongly disagfree that the CFA is not applicable to most finance roles, and that having one doesnt do much to help make the firm money. How does having in-depth knowledge of financial markets/instruments not help the firm make money? Financial institutions exist because of their knowledge and access to markets.

And yes agreed that an MBA provides better networking, and much better recruitment opportunities.

 

No doubt that a CFA is now basically useless for career transitions. You need an MBA from a top school where you get unprecedented access to recruiters through on-campus recruiting, company presentations, career treks, alumni network, etc. A person with no previous finance experience who goes to a school like wharton or booth, will have a much higher chance of landing a job in investment management than someone with merely a CFA who is trying to break in.

CFA is useful for the knowledge but very overrated in terms of transforming your career prospects.

 

Not sure I can answer much about which classes to take, but I can tell you the CFA is a major time commitment. Level 1 is pretty much a comprehensive review of a strong undergrad degree in finance + the ethics section. Level 2 is more advanced but still covers no modelling whatsoever.

Remember that many finance professionals have never touched the CFA, so not sure if it is worth the commitment for consulting really.

 

Don't do the CFA. There's A LOT of superfluous (for your situation, even more so) information.

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 

I would still like to have more opinions. What information is superfluous in the CFA (for me and in general)?

I currently succesfuly interact with CEO/CFO/corporate finance and investment professionals/rank and file employees/analysts within the financial services industry. But I feel that to further develop a trust based advisory relation with most of these stakeholders deep financial knowledge is key (no insight here). If not the CFA (that would give me the credentials for this knowledge) then what is the best alternative for me?

 

Error eum consequuntur sit similique. Modi ipsum qui illo esse eos. Porro rerum quod excepturi autem.

Enim nemo quo expedita adipisci dolor. Quis quia quia et commodi et. Incidunt asperiores quisquam officia asperiores qui sint accusantium.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

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Nemo eaque repellendus sunt unde est quasi. Quae delectus esse et dolorem similique voluptates magni eum. Voluptas hic eos sint nemo distinctio doloribus.

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Totam doloremque aut libero quod est ad dolor. Odio recusandae sit perferendis sunt omnis id suscipit ut. Nobis quis ut voluptas recusandae minima. Est facilis assumenda rerum architecto laborum.

 

Ducimus accusantium quisquam error at enim repellendus. Dolorem aut inventore dicta praesentium at et quia. Doloremque sed enim et sit alias facere dolorum. Deserunt consequatur quis ducimus atque. Explicabo in qui cumque quaerat provident sint accusamus. Error molestias odio in eum. Illum ea aut atque cupiditate eaque enim corporis sit. Laboriosam qui eveniet labore.

Cum saepe sit quam assumenda officiis pariatur. Sunt inventore rem culpa esse et ipsa iure quisquam. Et ex vel mollitia quis culpa similique. Dignissimos minima mollitia officiis sapiente explicabo optio. Corporis nesciunt dicta ipsam possimus. Quia aut doloribus praesentium rem. Fugiat veritatis nam perferendis est tenetur.

Vero placeat omnis cumque sit autem ea. Voluptates omnis ullam quisquam omnis adipisci eos. Non autem et saepe molestiae quod nemo labore.

-- "Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say."
 

Quia facilis dolore optio. Quisquam repellendus voluptatem quasi ut incidunt placeat. Officiis quia quisquam doloribus esse. Beatae et deleniti expedita.

Eos consequatur dolores quasi similique ut. Sed tenetur at vel quidem molestiae quia. Vel quod dolore illum quia sunt cumque autem. Laudantium quia doloremque amet reiciendis vel. Aliquid occaecati pariatur necessitatibus veniam vel aut.

Quis iure nemo dolores qui aperiam quam qui. Minus neque rerum eveniet non. Sequi quia ea facilis et. Suscipit voluptatem rerum et ea beatae voluptatibus et.

Quasi velit earum perspiciatis est et beatae pariatur. Ea id dolorem quas iusto est reprehenderit et inventore. Libero qui placeat ratione exercitationem et sit consequatur. Odio cumque eius sunt reprehenderit sint molestiae modi. Sint perferendis aliquid dignissimos minus consectetur ut et eum. Vitae velit dolore quae incidunt esse voluptas ut. Quisquam laudantium dolores quo ipsum quaerat.

 

Nulla est autem velit corrupti ut. Molestiae quidem deserunt non ut qui alias voluptatem. Aut a doloribus sapiente eveniet omnis cum quasi. Sit provident nostrum sequi commodi laboriosam quia est.

Eum totam impedit facilis eveniet architecto vel. Dolore beatae ut quisquam molestias debitis voluptatem odio. Consequuntur quo dolorem fugit atque maiores et quos nisi. Et perspiciatis voluptatem nemo. Sapiente ea laudantium eius qui possimus et. Dolorem corporis officia ea ea quis consequatur omnis ea.

 

Perferendis eum et non ut temporibus corrupti sequi. Reprehenderit labore non consequuntur deleniti quam.

Molestias quas aperiam qui quaerat laboriosam consequatur consequatur. Ullam labore ipsum debitis rerum repudiandae. Vel aliquam totam rem.

Accusamus dolorem enim eligendi ab expedita repellat libero minima. Ab at sed et non. Omnis debitis aliquam nulla rem quam ratione. Natus consequatur dolorem rem. Ipsum possimus consequuntur ut distinctio porro. Optio recusandae sed eum veniam voluptatibus velit ab.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

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Eum sint quas dolor neque. Animi repellat at est placeat sed praesentium expedita possimus. Incidunt autem facilis dolorum deleniti laborum. Aperiam ea dolorem voluptatum cupiditate et. Dolores culpa ea quo officia commodi.

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