Where do bottom HYPWS students go
Posted this in relation to the other post which asked where do top Wharton kids go
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/investment-…
I think a better question would be where do the bottom Wharton/ Harvard etc kids go. Like legit bottom 5% of the class, barely clinging onto a minimum GPA
I think it's a better question because:
1) The top HYP kids are already so well represented - we know where they are. They are the students which HYP themselves post on their websites as student success stories. They are the ones crowding your LinkedIn feed and get featured on the local paper. Their achievements and future plans are already in your face. Whereas on the other hand, the bottom kids who drop out just vanish from the sample. Might lead to a skewed representation of the sample - survivorship bias
2) It's also a no-brainer that the top HYPWS kids would be flooded by the best offers. Everyone who applies to GS knows they are competing with these kids
3) It's also an interesting thought experiment on its own regard. Does the HYP brand carry any weight in itself, if you graduate at the bottom or if you drop out? Why did these kids excel in school but flunk in college? Did they encounter any problems in college - was it mental health difficulties or what? Is the bottom Harvard student equal to the valedictorian of a no-name state school? Etc etc etc
4) If it's true that going to a top school but ranking near the bottom gives you bad job prospects, then what's the point of going to a tough school and risking getting bad grades. Would it be smarter to go to a Tier 2 and rank near the top. Etc etc
Deutsche Bank.
POTUS
Random corporate jobs
Yes it's hard to be the TOP kid at HYPSW, but if you are clearly already smart and know how to study it's not hard to hang onto a 3.7 in an easy major. That will get you looks at plenty of prestigious jobs.
The kids hanging onto a min GPA or bottom 5% of the class are mostly people who literally do not care, not a smart, hardworking kid who is just not the absolute smartest there. Think someone who was highly supervised and scheduled in HS and burnt out hard when they hit college and stopped caring, or a handful of people who were not necessarily academically qualified to be there (high-donation legacies, athletes etc). The very bottom Harvard kids are definitely not equivalent to the top of a mediocre school, GPA is king and the state school valedictorian would go much farther.
The drop out of Harvard thing might work in tech startup land, but in the corporate world you need a 4-year degree to land a finance job so no those dropouts also would not have a shot
I'd say the difficulty of those schools is the competitiveness - everyone around you is super smart and knows how to study. If you go to a Tier 2 you have a much smaller group of top-tier students, and perhaps that's a better confidence boost for you, but I wouldn't necessarily choose a lesser school over a top one just for that reason
thanks for this super insightful answer. Any idea of what those random corporate jobs entail - accounting, audit, FP&A, back office, B4? Some sort of data entry guy at a normal company
Thing is, with curved grading/ relative grading such as at Harvard, it's just statistics that someone will end at the bottom even with producing quality work (if everyone else does better top-notch work). These kids who 'do not care' - do they actually not care, or do they care 'deep down' but are just too depressed/ burnt out/ stupid to care? Why would Harvard pick these people in the first place lol
And also, what do these kids think of themselves and what does society think of these kids? Are they smart cuz they're a Harvard student, or are they stupid for being a bottom Harvard student/ crappy GPA?
At what GPA/ ranking cutoff would a HYPSW kid be less competitive than Tier 2/ semi-target/ non-target kids for prestigious jobs? Would you say the bottom 50% of HYPSW?
Yep exactly - back office, accounting at a non big-4, etc. Honestly from knowing some of these kids, they are burnt out and do not want to work. Think people who were pushed to be overinvolved in HS by their parents, maybe they just want to smoke and chill now and don't care about being the top student anymore. Many don't have any internships and just decide to get a job in senior spring.
Harvard does have a curve but also massive grade inflation. They are just not handing out Cs to people putting in top-quality work. Also don't forget Harvard has 90% of their students graduating cum laude (roughly a 3.5/3.6, plenty to get a decent job), Princeton 50%, Yale 30%... at a lot of non-targets only the top 15% total get cum laude, the cut-offs are often in the high 3.8s.
All this to say it's not like someone working hard at Harvard is likely to get lost in the shuffle with a terrible GPA. Again, that 3.7 is not hard to get as long as you're not in an engineering degree.
If you graduate from Harvard with a 2.0 "society" just sees you as a Harvard grad, nobody cares about your GPA and it's not like you need to announce your academic honors whenever you walk into a room.
Not hard? The modal grade at some of these schools is A or A- it's a joke to get a 3.7
Worth noting Harvard's grade inflation.
A >3.8 at a State non/semi target may not be 'smarter' than a Harvard 3.0, but they most likely worked harder/ are more motivated.
You're a clown if you think the average state school has less grade inflation than harvard.
OP this is a great question. I would say 10 years or more back - going to HYPSM was a golden ticket almost irrespective of your GPA. But now there is a huge push in all companies to have diversity in the colleges as well as the individual. Of course it helps to come from a target BUT if you can’t get approx 3.5 or above better to go tier2 with higher GPA.
another problem is that most companies don’t know about grade nflation at Harvard vs grade deflation at Princeton. The av GPA for Econ grads in 202 was 3.22! These students could get a very high GPA at a tier 2. Harvard Ave GPA is 3.77. I wish mployers were aware of this.
i think it depends what you mean by tier 2. If you mean like Duke, then sure. But if you mean Ohio State then you're better off with the bad GPA but Stanford network and brand.
This is definitely the case in the UK where recruiting is more randomised and has abritrary process and the job market is worse. Even if you're at oxbridge or LSE if you don't have a tailored CL, mistake free CV, have practised online tests enough to pass and applied early enough then you'll completely strike out. See plenty of oxbridge/lse kids go into big 4 audit or worse (no disrespect to big 4 audit as you can actually make it to IB from there in London but I'm talking about the competitiveness).
Think this works at multiple levels in the UK. For example, I graduated with a low 2:2 from a target UK uni last year (definitely bottom 5% of my class, if not the lowest member save for those who didn't graduate) and got all the MBB interviews after graduating (currently at one of them). Don't think it would happen in the US with OCR + GPA being more of a requirement on CVs
Jail
PhD programs
They go bag groceries or flip burgers.
Back office/ B4 and the like are far more competitive than this site makes it out to be. Only a little less drive to network, a bad super day, or that one C can be the difference between IB and B4 TAS. And you’ll be competing against all the non-targets without connections who are casting a wider net (very few are of the IB or bust mindset). BO jobs typically have a 2% acceptance rate or so with the more interesting divisions being even worse than this. The Harvard kid who gamed and partied all day, skipped class and made it out with a 2.4 in humanities won’t even make it past the automatic resume filter. He won’t even have the honor of having his resume being thrown in the trash.
For the top BO or TAS jobs absolutely, but there are so many random small companies that are always hiring for various positions and don't get anywhere near enough applications to have resume filters
source: was in greek life and saw many of these types. they all got random, nothing special jobs but there certainly are many, many jobs in between blue-chip financial firm BO/TAS and flipping burgers :)
Did any of your bros decide to give up on the white collar route and go to the trades instead?
So you're saying that lower level Ivy graduates have a tough time competing with non-targets without connections when it's a level playing field where both get to apply. lol
In terms of raw numbers yes they're competitive but the quality of applicants is significantly worse than for IBD. Like if you are at least decently polished in an interview you'll clearly stand out. Although from frequently browsing WSO it seems like everyone is hyperfocussed on their career, there are a TON of people who really don't care too much and aren't driven at all (a lot of them from well off backgrounds already so they don't feel the need to push themselves)
I know, but those people will still have 70% of the resume someone on WSO does. A 3.5 instead of a 3.9, member of a few finance clubs instead of being an officer, a traditional summer job instead of 1-2 FO internships, etc. The BO guy may not be hyper-driven and have the “wow” factor but he’s still smart enough to meet the boxes at an above average level.
A 2.3 humanities major who gamed all day doesn’t even come close to competing with the traditional BO guy.
Idk I don't have a job yet
While not Princeton, Andy from The Office ended up at a random mid-market paper distributor and he went to Cornell. So extrapolating upwards, a bottom-tier Princeton grad would probably end up in FP&A at staples and continuously flex their Ivy-league education to community college colleagues who earn the exact same amount.
what about Andy Dufresne?
I go to one of these schools. Well. I think the bottom 30% is probably a better sample because to be honest the outcomes are pretty bifurcated and the bottom 5% is very similar to the rest of the bottom 30% The ones who do the worst in terms of job placement are not necessarily the ones with the worst grades but the ones who have never tried to intern anywhere all four years of college.
While it doesn’t exactly answer your question, The Crimson just put out their class of 2022 outcomes:
7 in 10 make 70k or more.
3 in 10 make 110k or more.
Consulting is 23%
Finance is 18%
Tech is 17%
everything just falls off the cliff after that.
https://features.thecrimson.com/2022/senior-survey/after-harvard/
This is Penn’s 2021 outcomes for ~60% of the class. Page 10 is finance.. and I think if I’m reading their methodology right.. the answer would be: the bottom 5% is unemployed LOL
https://cdn.uconnectlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2022/03/2021_Industry_FDS.pdf
From what I've seen, a lot go back to grad school.
This happened very often around 08-09. Know a Wharton/UPenn graduate who barely had any job prospects with a 3.3-3.5 graduating in 2009. Lost a Big 4 consulting offer and was unemployed for months. Not sure what he did his first few years out of school but he went back to school at some point. Now he's a professor at one of the HSW MBA programs.
that's what I don't get - people say go back to grad school like it's a viable option over unemployment, and how its a chance to 'reset' your GPA
My question is, if you have a crappy GPA and that's why you have shit prospects for jobs, how are you eligible for grad school? How can you apply to grad schools (or at least any grad programs worth attending) if you have a crap GPA?
I'm based in the UK maybe that's my British speaking. I think Americans finish college slightly younger? Here in the UK, 'going to grad school' isnt smtg that's thrown around lightly
because in the US they will gladly take $80k a year for you while you "find yourself" at an mba program taking coloring 101
you can get into a solid MSF or related 1-2 year masters with a bad GPA and high GMAT if you came from a target school
I'd imagine that the bottom of the class at HYP probably consists of rich kids who are already set and don't care about their grades.
Assuming they have other things going on (clubs, sports, whatever) someone with a 2.0 GPA but "Princeton" on their resume can probably still get lots of interviews--they just don't put their GPA on their resume.
Was friends with a lot of bottom 3rd folks (generally more fun as friends) and they mostly ended up fine - lotta random Wall Street or consulting jobs. If you wanted one you got one tbh, the kids who didn’t do those jobs didn’t do them because of an active choice (med school, research, phd, tech, law school, politics, local organizing, teaching, slam poetry, whatever) not because of lack of access. Bottom 5% is a weird category because they kind of just either dropped out, graduated into a family biz, did some sort of regional sales, went and got random masters degrees, or burned out and went a different direction with their lives entirely and decided professional life wasn’t in their life plan anymore. Sometimes I respect those people a lot - like just went a different way with their lives.
Let’s be clear here - with the grading guidelines, 50th percentile is roughly a 3.5 GPA, which I don’t think is all that bad if I’m being totally honest. Anyone saying it’s “easy” to maintain a 3.7-3.8 or above wasn’t challenging themselves in college or had no dimension/interests out of school/job search, which as someone hiring young ppl now a days I find pretty pathetic and if I see on a resume I screen out before the interview. I don’t wanna be around weird people or creepers all day. Getting straight As at a top 3 school taking tough classes is “hard” I don’t care who you are - you’re competing on a curve against other highly motivated top students with perfect high school grades and SATs, lol
If you’re from a non-target reading this and you think about your bottom 3rd of the class there, it looks a heck of a lot different than the bottom of a HYPS class. Expect they have similar career outcomes as the 60-70th percentile of your school.
Interesting thoughts and if you think about it some more, it's a pretty bad outcome. A lot cheaper to go to a decent state school and get 60th percentile (probably while having a ton of fun) than paying a fortune at an Ivy League and get the same results.
Agreed on the non-target bottom 3rd for the most part (I went to one). Majority of these kids disappeared into dead-end jobs (usually lower middle class who had 2.7-3.0 type of GPAs and mediocre internships - probably making 40-60K/drowning in debt if they had no meaningful scholarship).
Surprisingly saw a Greek life sorority party girl turn her life around after school. Used to do party drugs/ go out every weekend. Now she's a doctor and already married with kids (very few of us from our graduating class have gotten married yet). Wasn't a bright student but I assumed she worked her butt off to get her life back on track after graduating.
Most average kids and above had decent careers. One of my best buds started up his own business and has been doing fairly well (sustainable lifestyle business where he can probably make low 6 figures comfortably over time, works in the sports industry on the wellness side with a clinical degree).
How did she get into med school?
I studied at a top target UK uni. I was not even close to bottom 5% of my class but definitely was not a top student and my performance deteriorated over time. For me it was a indeed a burnout/mental health problem and it took me quite a while to get back on track. Does not mean I did not do interesting things at uni but I did not focus my efforts on my degree. I had a job lined up way before graduating thanks to Spring Week->SA->FT. So my current job is partly a reflection of how good my CV and how driven I was when I started uni. I think it will not help me careerwise but in a few years it will hopefully not be the main aspect people look at on my CV - and I can always do a graduate degree and get some better grades if necessary.
Unfortunately, the bottom of the class is usually the ones who come from middle class families. They take whatever they can and continue working, even if its not the most prestigious gig.
It's easy to criticize them, but not a lot of them have the luxury of taking 3 gap years to reapply to med schools, or spend another 6 figures on bullshit masters programs, etc.
The reality is, even at top targets, your career prospects are determined by what social class you come from.
Nepotism is still strong. Your mom is a doctor? Great, she has a connection back home to get you into med school. Dad is a banker? You're applying at the investment bank he's currently a partner at.
When 20 percent + of your class comes from the 1%, it is difficult to compete against them when they have stronger access to capital and social resources.
Idk about the med school/masters stuff, but within the finance scene, I see the exact opposite. Everyone I know who is excelling and going straight to top buyside/rx/etc is upper middle class at most. Many of the rich kids don't grind as hard, aren't in the clubs, take freshman/soph summer chill, and are happy with MM IB/FP&A or anything else. The poorer kids tend to grind.
Yeah, all those kids who claimed upper middle at my target going to the top buy-side were actually in the top 1 percent, even though their parents made 500k. Once you get to the real world, you'll realize your target is just one huge bubble.
80%+ of these seats are going to people who went to top prep schools and are some form of diversity, so I disagree - just counting on LinkedIn would prove that there are few public schools and little to none are middle/upper middle class. They also tend to have a distorted view of what middle class actually is because of their environment. Keep in mind the median household income is top 10%~ (170k) at these schools, and that these top seats usually have a wealthier candidate pool.
FTX, Goldman Natural Resources and Stephens
They work in a cushy job at their family business in whatever country their family is from and they got a poor GPA because their grades never mattered at all
Most of them end up on the streets
The grade inflation comments are retarded. If you put the kid with a 3.0 here, they’d probably still get a 3.8+ somewhere else while putting similar effort. Your 25th percentile here still got a top 1% SAT score, so the spergs are still pretty sharp. Know a couple guys who dropped out and had around a 3.2 and now don’t do shit and have a near perfect gpa at their state schools. And sure there are kids here that can black out 5x a week and still get Latin honors, but there’s maybe 5 of those I’ve heard of in my time here. Meanwhile all my buddies back home r doing that and have 3.8+. That said, I’d wanna work with the state school guys over other HYP hardos. More fun.
People do so much more than IB, MBB, law, Medicine, and tech. I'm browsing through the UPENN jobs report, and yes there is a lot of the typical stuff, but there are also a lot of people who landed jobs that wso would consider mediocre, like Accenture, being a risk analyst at a bank, going to a decent law school, working at a F500 doing corporate finance or marketing, etc...
Similar vibe to my T25 undergrad that's a target for MBB/IB/etc... A lot of my friends (many of whom had strong grades) are at T3 consulting firms (B4 fed practice, random boutiques, etc...), random jobs for medium sized companies, law school at a state school (mainly for saving money), B4 accounting, sales at a medium size tech company, working in a university admissions office, working as a paralegal, etc... These aren't bad students by no means either.
One of my hometown friend's older brothers dropped out of MIT with two semesters left and has worked a slew of random but well paying corporate jobs over the past 4 years. Still, he's making low to mid six figures without having graduated college.
you can work a corporate job without a degree?
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