Non-Diverse Semi-target placements looking brutal

Saw a comment on this on another thread and thought maybe some of yall could use some perspective. I attend a semi-target with dedicated recruiting teams at 50%+ of banks on Wall Street. I just signed an offer with an EB, one of only a few from my school this year. It seems like every diverse applicant has signed at a mid or top BB/EB, and my non-diverse friends or others in my clubs are barely getting first rounds. I know kids with very good resumes and who have networked extensively (and have done it well, with referrals in place) and aren't even getting first rounds at many places. I can 1000% positively attest through numerous peer mock interviews etc. that most of the diverse applicants are less qualified than non-diverse in terms of technicals and behaviorals (and no, non-diverse aren't just nerdy kids with no social skills). 

I really think the pendulum has swung too far. If banks fill 60% of their classes from diversity, another 30% from non-diverse HYPSM (and a few other top targets), 5%? from nepotism, what the fuck is left for semi or non-targets? I mean, my school isn't bad - we've historically placed quite well across the street. We have multiple clubs dedicated to recruiting and have extremely strong candidates. Absolutely absurd. I'm a poor asian guy who worked 40 hours a week in highschool at a shitty job and have pretty much built the perfect resume, and still had retards getting first rounds at places where I could barely get anyone on the phone. 

You diverse people can all sit on your throne and laugh and say that it's fair, but if you personally had friends who are getting absolutely screwed in favor of people who wouldn't even have been able to get into my school without affirmative action, you would feel the same way. 

Comments (210)

Most Helpful
  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 12:26am

Bro I'm from a no name Midwest liberal arts college and got offers from 2 top BBs and EVR, PJT. Come on this site and seems like everyone is just bitching. Yeah maybe it's gone too far but the process, on an aggregate level at least, is very much in your control.

also a poor Asian guy btw. And I have seen the personal situations you're talking about too. Yeah it sucks. But again, the process is in your control. 

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  • Anonymous Monkey
  • Rank: Chimp
May 5, 2022 - 4:53am
Anonymous Monkey, what's your opinion? Comment below:

No its not. You were lucky then shut your fucking mouth as you are no guru

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 10:15am

There is an element of luck at any singular bank. Lot's of things you can't control (alumni who happen to be there, how much was filled with diversity, MDs kid or something, etc.) But like anything else, it's law of large numbers. You aren't ~getting fucked~ in all 15-20 of the processes you're trying to get into. 

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 6, 2022 - 10:54pm

sorry you weren't up to par

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May 5, 2022 - 5:00am
hogcalling2015, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Recognize that you are an incredibly unique and rare position too tho?? What you just described does not happen often. 

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 5:28am

Pretty sure this kid is lying. Stories like this are EXTREMELY rare (probably never has happened) unless this guy has MF PE for sophomore summer or some shit.

I know diversity kids with BB sophomore summers and none of them swept the top banks.

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 10:10am

Yeah you think it is so rare on this site. Then you get to your summer at a top place and see analysts from Fordham/Indiana/Binghamton type places killing it and you aren't too confused as to how those hustlers got there. 

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 6, 2022 - 6:20pm

Yeah especially because PJT almost exclusively fills its class from target schools. I know some people with BB IBD internships during sophomore year who still didn't get interview from the pedigree whore, that is PJT

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 10:54am

There's no way those offers were for IB. And if it was, you would say it

May 6, 2022 - 4:58pm
dlop the banker, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Most of the diverse candidates are white women and I don't see a problem with it. Studies show they perform the best.

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 5:24am

I'm at Wharton and it's the same story here.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 5:50pm

Yep, was talking with some friends about recruiting, quite a few of us non-div guys are getting fucked. Meanwhile there's an insane amount of girls signing at top BBs while we are grinding for a chance to even get a superday.

  • Investment Analyst in HF - EquityHedge
May 5, 2022 - 8:35pm

Wharton may be one of the worst places to recruit nowadays. So many hardos grinding for just a few spots. Citi had 7 spots for Wharton, you can guess 4 went to diversity, maybe 1 went to a special connection. 300+ hardos gunning for 2 spots. Both my friends at Wharton are still recruiting when its mostly over now

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 9:50pm

"Wharton may be one of the worst places to recruit nowadays."

Bruh. Like have you ever read the shit you write out loud to appreciate the magnitude of how dumb you are?

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 5:28am

Completely understand where you're coming from - I feel the same way as well. I understand the need to increase representation in the industry, but the way that it's done really just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Diversity at this point really just means anyone but straight white and asian guys, and disproportionately against people from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds who might not have prior connections in the industry. Am an asian guy as well based in London, and recruiting season was definitely disproportionately rougher in Europe versus other regions.

But at the end of the day, it's not something we have control over, so there's not much point complaining over it - just means that we have to work that much harder to get there.

  • Intern in AM - Equities
May 7, 2022 - 7:59pm

Honestly London diversity hires include Asian (all types) in general in my opinion and experience. The power that organisations such as SEO London have in placing/fasttracking anyone that is BAME into top tier firms is insane. I know a couple of EBs and BBs with dedicated diversity streams, that include anyone not the typical 'Caucasian straight male' as well.

If you're Asian and you're complaining about not being included in diversity hires then you're not networking enough or taking part in social organisations that exist.

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 5:34am

At this point I would say it's easier to land a top BB/EB as diversity from a nontarget than it is top land top BB/EB as nondiversity from a supertarget.

May 5, 2022 - 10:15am
rabbit, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Bunch of anecdotes and woe is me shit. The fact you say you built a "perfect" resume already makes a lot of the "my friends have really strong resumes" super sus to me.

Go back to that post from the MS guy bitching that 60%+ of the summers were filled by diversity and verified MS employees coming back with they haven't even started recruiting yet.

Y'all need a serious reality check about the fact that recruiting is a lot of luck and a lot of us just really aren't as good as we think we are.

May 5, 2022 - 10:45am
GUHHHH, what's your opinion? Comment below:

MS def finished recruiting. Yea, some school teams at the time of the post didn't start. But the majority did. Diversity filled even more than 60% of the class. Times have changed since you recruited, I can promise you that. My diverse friends are actually so entitled now because offers come so easy to them. One of them got an IB offer for CS, but wasn't happy bc it "wasn't a bulge bracket". Another got an offer not knowing the 3 statements. Another turned down BofA bc he wanted the chance to recruit for MS. Another only wants to work at a "top 5 bank" and not some no-name bank like Evercore or PJT. All of these people have no idea how to answer "walk me through a dcf". The entitlement is fucking real.

May 5, 2022 - 11:52am
rabbit, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Look at the banking forum, as if the prestige circlejerking and entitlement is limited to diversity candidates. OP just called their own resume "perfect" and called diverse candidates they interviewed "unqualified" yet they have likely never spent more than a summer in industry. How am I supposed to take that kind of entitlement and arrogance seriously? 

I'll say it again, on that MS thread, there is a verified MS poster saying "my group hasn't started yet" and another verified one saying "we got our non-diversities just fine". I'll take their words over "Prospect - IB". 

The hardos can delude themselves into thinking they're perfect candidates, but (a) likely literally clones of every other resume that comes through, and (b) not as stellar as they think they are. There's a reason there is an airport test and those of us who review resumes actually read through the extracurriculars section. 

Not to mention how big a factor luck is in recruiting.

Edit: You're also the only one here who didn't post anon. Lots of strong opinions and nobody with the conviction to do it under an anonymous user name. What does that tell you? lol

Jun 20, 2022 - 1:17pm
monkey0114, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Lol this is true. I remember seeing a tiktok of a guy interviewing LSE students asking them what they wanted to do after uni. All the black people were like "idk probably IB or AM or something to make money" as if they could just walk into it. I was scrolling through some LSE students linkedin recently who were non diversity and a lot of them were non diverse hardos with committee roles in a ton of lse finance societies with zero spring weeks/internships on their linkedin or maybe a small boutique summer.

Tbh as well a lot of the Asian students I have noticed with top internships seem to usually be in Singapore or Hong Kong. Its probably easier there without diversity recruiting

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 11:06am

As a diversity candidate, who just signed, I agree it has gone too far. It is sad because sentiment like this post is growing and by the time I start, I feel people will hold a grudge against me and believe I don't "deserve" to be there. I also go to a semi-target and seeing the same thing. Every diversity candidate got an EB or top BB. Non-diversity has mostly struck out. Some of the diversity offers are very well deserved, but some are ridiculous. Personally know of a girl from Beverley Hills who couldn't tell you the 3 financial statements and signed to an EB, and another who has a MS superday and couldn't tell you what IB is. People like that ruin it for the rest of us diversity folks who actually put countless time into this process. 

  • Associate 2 in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 1:16pm

That is disappointing. Any suggestions on how to improve diversity recruiting?

May 5, 2022 - 2:36pm
YabberShneebs, what's your opinion? Comment below:

The pretty simple answer is to bring in a select amount of diversity candidates and actually test them like a non diversity candidate. If there's still room after it opens up to a pool of all candidates.

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 3:00pm

First, I have always wondered why diversity recruiting is first. If banks are looking to recruit students from traditionally underrepresented backgrounds, why do it 2-3 semesters into college? That doesn't give them much time to learn about IB. I suggest either doing diversity recruiting after the normal process or doing it like college admissions where it all happens at once but banks evaluate candidates holistically but with a diversity lens. 

Also, diversity programs can be better. I legit applied for all of these in a day by sending my resume around. Then, for the program, I logged onto the zoom in pajamas and took a few notes on what makes them unique, or an analyst's email. Rest of it was a waste of time. I suggest these are done in person and are more intimate. I shouldn't be able to go one for every bank, but instead just my top choices. 

Finally, I only looked at EBs, so this wasn't really a thing but HireVues suck. I am a big fan of networking for a first round. Maybe banks bring a bunch of candidates into their diversity day. Then, there is a coffee chat at the end of the day and they decide who they will interview from that pool. Make it so people have to put in effort to weed out those that aren't interested.

Overall, I am thankful for the diversity process, but it has shown its flaws this year for sure

May 6, 2022 - 11:48pm
yopierre, what's your opinion? Comment below:

If diversity candidates are getting offers without knowing technicals, obviously the banks think they can teach them that. You're talking about diversity candidates ruining the process, and they haven't even done the internship or gone full time yet. Sure the diversity process could be optimized, but saying its gone too far is crazy

  • Intern in PE - Other
May 12, 2022 - 10:55pm

Is this not a problem? I find it ridiculous that banks spend so much time on textbook technicals. They know that they can teach them everything they need. As someone who has interviewed at least 100 students, I've found no correlation between knowing technicals and being successful at the job. The only time they've been useful is to catch people lying about their resume (You'd be surprised how many people put down shit on their resume that they never actually did).

I try to ask smart questions to gauge someone's thought process - you can really tell a lot about a candidate by walking through a problem with them and seeing how they do.

May 26, 2022 - 3:31pm
MiggleGiggles, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I also witness this. I grinded extremely hard in my technicals and was placed in a lower division than other diversity candidates who couldn't even be able to answer hypothetical questions of that industry. When speaking to diversity candidates about what they were asked in technicals for their interviews made me extremely upset. I am a diversity candidate myself, and this is just got too much to the point where diversity is all based on pure luck if you qualify the basic requirements. 

I know some diversity recruitments are forced to only ask you the most basic technical questions, even for IB. I am upset b/c I also didn't have the control to be placed where I wanted where I grinded harder than others only to note they aren't taking acknowledgement rather it's a jeopardized game. I also get behavioral is very important, but I feel anyone can be likeable if you're humble and eager to learn like most of us. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 5, 2022 - 3:02pm

Yeah seriously. I think these programs (because they are flawed, not because the exist) are making people automatically assume diversity hires are unqualified. Many are, but it is a dangerous generalization. Something has to change

May 7, 2022 - 1:40pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Tell me how that makes sense. So people become magically racist and think black people are inferior because diversity programs exist? Or maybe they're just trying to justify a retarded worldview that implies that they are superior because of the color of  their skin

  • Investment Analyst in HF - EquityHedge
May 5, 2022 - 8:38pm

Diversity makes up 60-70%of the class now. I assume you think 70% of the class comes from nepotism?

May 6, 2022 - 2:15pm
ConsultingFan007, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I suppose you think the people who get in through diversity hiring are inherently less qualified because of the color of their skin? If it was 70 percent Asian or White, I bet you would be the first one to say, "It's completely fair and a meritocracy, idk why u guys are complaining".

May 6, 2022 - 9:15am
billy_boy79, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Are you an idiot? Diversity hires are easily multiples that of nepotism hires, they're not comparable. You can be upset about both but diversity hiring has a wayyyy bigger impact in the 2020s in screwing over other hardworking candidates 

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May 6, 2022 - 2:12pm
ConsultingFan007, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Are you an idiot? During the beginning stages of Wall States and for many years after minorities had no chance of ever getting into prestigious finance jobs. If we didn't have these diversity programs, the people on this forum would make it so that we went back to these days where only golfing buddies got hired and blacks weren't allowed. I don't know if you have spoken to 5 black or latino people in your entire life, but if you try to hold a conversation with those who qualify through these diversity programs you will see that on average they are just as qualified as the average ORM applicant. Of course, there will be a couple of exceptions, but for every one of those exceptions I could point you to a legacy hire who barely knows how to tie his shoes, but who isn't brought up on this forum ever when complaining about getting offers. Seeing the amount of people on here who think that minorities are inferior/not as smart makes me thankful that we have diversity programs, or else you guys would make these places look about as accepting to non-ORM people as a KKK rally.

Controversial
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
May 5, 2022 - 9:47pm

Bruh this thread is literally full of people I would never want to work with -- sooo many arguments being floated that are not only problematic, but also just wrong. For starters, I've always been surprised by how many people on this site feel entitled to a job? Like lmao get fucked -- have you considered not being ass? There are white / asian dudes from no name state schools without family in the industry working at Evercore, PJT, Centerview, Goldman TMT, MS M&A, JPM M&A and more. Why wasn't that person you? Straight up forget all your hate for black people and women and disregard that share of the intern class for one minute, and ask yourself why you couldn't get a job that someone with objectively an identical demographic profile could. The answer is probably that you don't have a "perfect resume" and you're probably just bad. I've tried really hard in a lot of threads like these to break down on what statistical underrepresentation means for people (hint: white and asian men make up ~35% of the US population so if your intern class didn't underrepresent any demographic, 60-70% of your class would in fact fall under diversity categories for finance recruiting -- exactly the number you're claiming to be angry about. Asian men are about 3.5% of the us population. What percent of your intern class do they make up?) Honestly though, having a reasonable conversation with people like this is exhausting, so I'll join you at your level and offer you a simpler message: get fucked lol. You had a chance, and you dicked it, and now I get the pleasure of knowing I'll never have to work with you in my life. 

Sincerely,

A non t-50 public school grad from a single parent asian household leaving my banking group to go to MF PE.  

  • Investment Analyst in HF - Other
May 6, 2022 - 2:17am

You have no idea what it was like recruiting for SA 2023. Diversity recruiting ramped up way higher the past couple years.

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 6, 2022 - 5:55am

White/Asian males probably make up 80% of the applicant pools and are more qualified on paper. How is it fair to limit them to the their share of the US population if there are more of them interested and if they are more qualified on paper. 

I never understood why people compare representation to the general US population when the people going for these spots are not representative of the general US population. Just because Harvard is 20% Asian versus the general population being 5% Asian doesn't mean the bar isn't higher for Asians. They succeed despite the additional obstacles thrown at them.

You sound like one of those people who think "I got mine, now fuck you." Of course you wouldn't care about diversity recruiting because you are one of the people who were lucky enough to escape it and get an offer. And because you were lucky, of course you attribute it to your innate talents. You don't recognize your position, but instead just think everyone who can't get an offer needs to "consider not being ass." Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite you one day and you get passed on for a promotion because you aren't diverse enough. I hope when that happens, well, you should've "considered not being ass."

Complaining about recruiting does not equal entitlement. It's not entitlement to want equal treatment. Based on the high and mighty tone of your post, you would be the first to complain as well if you struck out recruiting, but you were lucky enough not to so you sit on your throne and act condescending towards others not so lucky.

If you care so much about diversity, practice what you preach. Give up your MF PE job to some diverse kid instead of telling every other nondiverse kid aiming for these jobs to get fucked. 

Finally, you sound like an absolute pleasure to work with: Condescending and arrogant (attributes all success to yourself and not external factors like luck, blames everyone who fails as not being good enough rather than external factors). I hope your MF PE firm finds out who you are, because I doubt anyone would want to work with someone like you either.

  • Analyst 1 in AM - Other
May 6, 2022 - 12:43pm

Even Stalin eventually liquidated millions of his own loyal party. This guy will get what's coming to him. Totalitarianism always devours it's own children, as Hannah Arendt would say. You cannot run from it.

May 6, 2022 - 1:43pm
rabbit, what's your opinion? Comment below:

White/Asian males probably make up 80% of the applicant pools and are more qualified on paper. How is it fair to limit them to the their share of the US population if there are more of them interested and if they are more qualified on paper. 

No.

Edit: Y'all can MS me all you want but "Prospect - IB Gen" has never worked a week FT in industry, nor picked through a resume book and yet has a definitive opinion on who is more qualified. Bunch of "Intern" and "Prospect" accounts hiding behind anon posting spitting "60% OF HIRES ARE DIVERSITY" and "MY RESUME IS PERFECT AND DIVERSITIES ARE 100% ARE UNQUALIFIED". Lord have mercy on the poor team that has to deal with this bullshit.

May 17, 2022 - 5:43pm
aaa9a4, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Why do you all keep using the word fair? What makes you think this process is supposed to be fair? This is the real world buddy grow up get better and stop crying trying to blame your shortcomings on other peoples success. A lot of you all are outing yourselves, GS and MS know what they are doing in terms of hiring, to think you know better seems like subtle racism/sexism to me. You do realize your job is not taking equations to the 4th derivative right? You are an excel monkey, these skills do not require perquisites and can be learned by any somewhat sharp individual. You knowing the ins and out of some random company you think may be important doesn't mean anything to GS or MS, all these things you think are important going in are not, they are filters to make the process easier for the companies who again know what they are doing.

May 7, 2022 - 12:28pm
Abccc1533, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Don't worry, they won't listen lol. Instead of taking a few moments to consider they aren't the incredible applicant they think they are, wso college hardos jump to it is all the "diversity" applicants' fault they didn't get an offer. There are a million banks out here in today's world and if you didn't get any offers, it is because you were lazy or that you are a crappy applicant. Some of these target/semi target kids need to get more hustle and a personality. You can tell they though if they had a high GPA and were involved in the finance club on campus that they would just walk into GS. And the vast majority of analysts are still white men (regardless of what WSO college kids want you to believe after never even being near the desks). If IB was so overtaken by diversity applicants with the high turnover of analysts, it would be clearly noticeable.

Jun 8, 2022 - 10:56pm
tall_investor, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Your argument is that these people complaining are not good enough, which, I suppose is true, else they would have the job.

The reasonable, and IMO the right counter argument, is that they were good enough had firms not taken spaces away for what would be qualified candidates and made them open to people who are so far below a huge chunk of applicants. For every 10 diversity seats filled, 8-9 could be filled by non-diversities who without a doubt would blow those diversity seats out of the water.

So, I guess yes, if you don't get an offer, you weren't good enough to make non-diversity, but that's an artificial barrier, and you were qualified enough and are better than the pool they are taking in.

  • Analyst 3+ in Risk Mnmgt
May 6, 2022 - 7:23am

At a BB and the contractor that creates our business training materials was bragging about how effective their training was at bringing diverse ib candidates who had never even considered a career in Banking up to speed before joining their analyst class.

  • Intern in IB - Cov
May 6, 2022 - 8:25am

Trying to approach this emotionally-charged from an objective perspective here.

From what the kids recruiting right now seem to be experiencing, competition (diversity and otherwise) is absolutely insane, and what I've been seeing in terms of application numbers / prospects wanting to network confirms that. 

This means that the background that might've gotten one of us an internship just a few years ago (assuming appropriate amount of time is spent networking, learning industry / technicals) may no longer be enough. 

Yet, at the same time, the vetting process being used by those of us in the industry has remained largely the same: 1. does this kid understand this shit well enough to make my job easier and 2. is this kid interesting enough for me to not want to shoot myself when I have to spend all day around them.

It seems as if the result of all this has been kids that have never encountered adversity before and don't understand whatsoever what we are actually looking for in a prospective SA are at the same time are facing multitudes more competition and failing to realize that mindlessly applying the same framework we did to their recruiting simply will not work.

While it may be more difficult for you to recruit today, what you have to do to get an offer is still the same: be a normal and interesting person while simultaneously having a strong technical / conceptual understanding of finance 

At the end of the day, there are honestly probably more SA spots than kids that actually are a value add, so you really have to differentiate yourself if actually want one of those spots (so stop doing exactly what everyone else is doing, stupid).

May 6, 2022 - 9:19am
billy_boy79, what's your opinion? Comment below:

What are you talking about, the fact that you aren't black makes you racist don't you know? Also have you become a tranny yet? No? Well that explains why you weren't hired.

Listen, your intelligence doesn't matter in this new era anymore. Sad state of the times, will not be surprised to see China dicking on us in 30yrs 

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
May 6, 2022 - 10:31am

This is quite an interesting trend. When I was analyst, my analyst class and the analyst class above me consisted of roughly 60% white men, 20% Asian men, and 10% Hispanic/Black men, and 10% white/Asian women. Everyone went to either an ivy+ or top undergrad business school and then there was the one Asian dude that worked his way from some random state school.

I was very fortunate to go through a much more simplified process than the current cohort of applicants since there was significantly less interest in banking when I recruited for it. If someone were to tell me that the incoming class for 2023 for most top banks was made up of 60% diverse applicants it would not surprise me.

A few things I noticed during my time at a top BB that could explain what is happening today.

  1. Female analysts out perform their male counterparts at the junior level. This is coming from a straight Asian male btw. A large reason for this is that men have a very fragile ego. They think everything is a dick measuring contest. It's sad but true. The worst experiences I have had with an intern was literally a white male who would refuse to make changes per the VPs comments since he thought it didn't add any value. Women are better are following instructions and making comments as instructed and complain 1/2 the amount. They also tend to have greater attention to detail. Partly why they outperform men in school. A small push from a group of junior and mid-level bankers asking to hire more females probably played a large role. HR probably went a bit overboard and went from 10%-50% in a matter of 4-5 years, which decreases the spots available for traditional candidates.
  1. Non-target students are most likely to stay on as an associate. Non-targets tend to have a chip on their shoulder and will do anything to impress their team. I don't think the non-target analyst ever pushed back on work or last minute deliverables. He would always work his butt of without complaining and do a pretty decent job as well. During on cycle, 80% of the class left but the non-target stayed since he struck out on most of his top places. He still works there and he is probably on track to get VP in a few years. The % of analysts that stay to become associates are from non-target so when recruiting cycle takes place, they will be open to recruiting from outside traditional schools.
  1. Unwelcoming environment for women. Honestly, being 1 or 2 female analyst out of 20 is probably very intimidating. Most of the guys on the floor would talk about sports and watch games together on the floor TV during the work day. Sometimes senior folks would invite a few analysts to watch a game in person and those analyst were usually all male. These types of events probably discouraged a lot of the female bankers since they were not able to build that same connection with the senior bankers. This probably also contributed for a push for more female bankers.

Those are some of my thoughts. It is probably much harder to recruit today as a target white/Asian male for the reasons I outlined above. I wonder how this will play out in MF recruiting.

May 6, 2022 - 1:18pm
dafftt, what's your opinion? Comment below:

"Women are better are following instructions"

If that's your litmus test for rating women better than men, that's pretty unfortunate.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 6, 2022 - 6:49pm

A couple of points here to retort your thoughts. Happy to discuss in a civilized way if you'd feel inclined to. I am providing these thoughts as an Asian male with working class parents and went to a semi-target state-school with no nepotism.

- To your initial point that 60% of your analyst class was white men: Why is this an issue? The majority of this country is white and the majority of applicants are white / asian men. It is mathematically more likely that the majority of full-time analyst hires come from one of these demographics. Is the hiring practice for elementary school teachers or nurse racist since 95% of this workforce is comprised of woman? Is the NBA / NFL racist in their drafting choices because the majority of athletes are African American men? What is the NFL / NBA instituted a diversity quota for a certain % of the draft to be Asian athletes? I would be against this, because I believe that merit should be selected in hiring practices     

- Your point that woman make better analysts: Again, I believe that no one should receive preferential treatment due to their gender or race. If Candidate A is a better than Candidate B and Candidate A happens to be a woman, great! Candidate A should receive the better staffing or promotion. If Candidate C is better than Candidate A, but is a straight white man, guess what? Also great! Let Candidate C get receive the benefits. Supporting diversity recruiting would be signing off on Candidate B simply because they are a woman vs the better Candidate C simply to inject diversity into the workforce. Also, woman are less likely to choose academic paths in STEM which impacts the # of woman that apply for roles in the financial services industry.

- To you point on state school candidates staying in IB: You just proved that there is a certain level of "elitisms" in the country. Is there some level of merit when it comes to ivy league admissions? Absolutely, but the fact of the matter is, most Exeter alum likely wouldn't have gotten into an ivy league if they went to a public school in rural Arkansas. Why is it okay that we've been discrimination in favor of school pedigree for so long and it's horrible that less woman choose a career in financial services yielding less woman / minorities in the workforce? 

Lastly, I'm NOT arguing that white people are discriminated against (they aren't), but if the best candidate for the role happens to be a straight white male, by all means they should receive the role. Also, none of the diversity programs are leveling the playing field from wealthy nepotism hires, they hurt state school candidates that come from a middle class background.

May 6, 2022 - 1:10pm
AnalyzeANDchill, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Its silly we even have to have this discussion I thought in America we agreed racism was bad, funny how we are extremely open about being racist now of days and giving huge advantage to certain groups. 

Shocks me that certain banks and companies have not ran ads yet about not hiring based on race and accusing competitors of doing so. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 7, 2022 - 11:41am

They basically are running ads at this point. "Diversity Scholarship for Black/Latino Applicants", "Woman's Leadership Program" etc. Complete scam. Imagine being a child of Nigerian immigrants who moved here when you were a baby and then getting handouts at every step of your life simply because of your race. Basically the same thing as being born white pre-1940s lol

May 6, 2022 - 4:52pm
dlop the banker, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I go to a target school (think lower ivies: not Wharton). Everyone here who are in finance clubs placed at a bank for '23. Mostly BB and EB with some MM placement. However, my point is that you simply didn't do well in your interviews. If your technicals are great but you have a shit personally they aren't going to give you an offer.Learn to pass the airport test

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 6, 2022 - 6:32pm

You can say this to anyone that gets rejected at a bank. The fact of the matter is that you can have an impeccable resume, prefect GPA, great behavioral interviews, stellar technical acumen and still get rejected simply because the firm wanted more woman or minorities. You can't just assume that the OP didn't receive an offer simply because he has a "shit personality" or that he "didn't do well in your interviews". You're very obviously beating around the bush and avoiding the point: These banks SUBSTANTIALLY lower the standard for diversity candidates. If the OP went through a diversity channel, his chances of getting an offer would go up 50% even if he was a poor interviewer.  

No one is arguing that black candidates or woman are less qualified that white men or purple men candidates. As an Asian male, I'm simply asking that everyone is held to the same standard. Nepotism hires are ~10% of all hires. The solution isn't to just inject 50% of the workforce with diverse candidates that comprise only 5% of total applicants. 

  • Intern in PE - Other
May 12, 2022 - 11:03pm

I don't agree with many of these policies but you're flat out wrong. If you have an impeccable resume, perfect GPA, and great behavioral and technicals, then the only way you could conceivably be rejected is by being red-flagged or going to a real F-tier school. Some places have started to do diversity only internships completely though, which I am mad about.

The reality is, there aren't enough qualified diverse candidates. 

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 6, 2022 - 6:24pm

I couple of things I want to discuss here. I understand that there are 2 extremes here and I'll objectively discuss the points of both sides: In favor of diversity and against diversity. Overall I am extremely against the way the current diversity recruitment system is in place, but would be in favor of some form of socio-economic diversity programs. Before I analyze both sides, my background is Asian male from a semi-target state-school in the Midwest, immigrants parents (no-nepotism), public high school attended, broke into a EB, and currently associate at a top Mega Fund.

Note to OP:  Trust me, I understand how frustrating it is to need to be 5X more qualified that diverse candidates just to enter the interview room, just to be rejected at every place. It took me over 10 superdays before I was able to get into a top EB. Just keep in mind, you only need 1 offer. My advice is, as long as you can break into any average middle market firm, it is quite easy to move around as a lateral candidate. The reality is, as a summer analyst candidate, you aren't able to control much other than your GPA. The fact of the matter is, this job isn't that hard, and weather someone is less qualified technically, many people can become good analyst under the right mentorship / work ethic. I'm happy to share more about my experiences over PM.

Arguments For Diversity:

- More enjoyable work environment

- Providing opportunities to people of lesser means

- Racial equity - fact of the matter is that people of certain demographics are less likely to have wealth accumulated do to laws that were in place during most of our parents life times

- Ally networks that provide woman and other minorities access to a support system which in terms limits sexual harassments etc.

Arguments Against Diversity:

- Socio-Economic vs Racial Prejudice: The long standing argument for diversity programs is that the under qualified wealthy / connected white male was frequently able to receive offers, capital and promotions over that of other minorities. My retort to this point is that the key word here is "Wealthy / Connected" and not "White Male". I think we can all agree that someone who is from a well connected and wealthy family will in-turn have it much easier than someone of less means. My point is that nepotism is not an issue of race, but rather of class. EX: Robert Smith's children will likely have it easier to attend a prestigious university etc. than that of a while person born in a trailer park in Oklahoma next to multiple meth labs.

- Pendulum Swinging Too Far: I agree with OP in that I think there is too much "lee-way" or "handouts" given to woman and under-represented minorities at every level. Obviously undergraduate university offer affirmative action programs so that under-privileged candidates are able to compete with those of more means. However, it's gotten to the point where there is "lee-way" and "handouts" at every level. Goldman Sachs / Morgan Stanley and a number of other Bulge Brackets essentially have internships that are only eligible for under represented minorities and woman where you cannot even be considered for otherwise. After a full-time offer is secured, I know from my firms hiring practices that many diverse candidates received special signing bonuses and compensation packages for diversity fellowships. Once reviews and promotion cycle come along, I know many minority candidates who were promoted despite lackluster reviews. Once Headhunter conversations started, there were candidates who received offers through SEO / MLT without even interviewing for PE firms. At some point merit must be considered

- Persecution of certain ethnic groups: I am not one to argue that the African American community has not faced hardships that seep into even today's society. However, if you look at a case by case basis, there are many ethnic groups that benefit from these programs who have not necessarily faced hardships. For example, if someone was born to Nigerian immigrants and moved to the US at the age of 5, this person has not actually been affected by systemic racism. Additionally, someone who happens to have a Latino / Hispanic sounding name can easily check the Hispanic box which also makes a noticeable impact on their prospects. Many people who are of Hispanic origin have also never faced persecution what so ever and actually descend from Spaniard origin (Spaniards imperialized much of the western world). Additionally, the majority of African American candidates are even up for these spots aren't from low class families, but are typically already from upper middle class families.

- Argument of Talent Ultimately Winning in The End: The reason these programs are in place, is because it is believe that certain candidates have a leg-up on other candidates due to specific connections or extraneous factors. As OP mentioned, these diversity programs do not dilute the # of "white nepotism hires" that are taken every year. In my experience the breakdown has come to this following distribution (55% Diversity Hires / 30% Target + Ivy League / 10% straight nepotism / 5% State school merit). The issue that I have with this distribution is that less than 10% of applicants are woman or under-represented minorities. As a result, there is effectively a 5X probability that a minority candidate will be selected for a competitive internship. 

Again, I hope I am not offending anyone with these comments, but rather want to bring light to some of the arguments for and against these programs. If it were up to me, I think socio-economic programs where candidates present their families taxable income would be the best way to filter for diversity of thought. I am happy to discuss any of my above points either on this thread or over DM as helpful. Thank you for your input. 

May 7, 2022 - 1:52pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

What you're ignoring is that even if you have money as a black person, people still discriminate against you. Trayvon Martin was shot in a gated community.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 7, 2022 - 8:12pm

us_ski2022

What you're ignoring is that even if you have money as a black person, people still discriminate against you. Trayvon Martin was shot in a gated community.

First off, what happened to Trayvon Martin and for George Zimmerman to get away with that is horrible and I'm here to dispute otherwise. However, can you please explain to me how basically reserving a separate Wall Street recruitment process that is substantially easier than a traditional process for non-minorities is a solution against police brutality? I'm not saying that there aren't racist people in the US, but if Black people want to change the perception, it's a two way street (they can change their culture) and no other race makes raps / songs about glorifying gangster culture and street warfare. 

I am against police brutality against the black community, but the solution to that is not to basically handout white collar jobs on Wall Street to already middle-class black people. If these banks actually cared they'd spend their "diversity budgets" on inner-city schools in black communities to help minimize street culture and gang-violence.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
May 8, 2022 - 1:42pm

I think you bring up some really great points for both sides of the argument.

I will say that as a non-diversity person, I do find it much more enjoyable to have a diverse class of people from different ethnicities/genders - I personally wouldn't love if my class was just a bunch of other white dudes.

Another counter argument to OP - if you really are a good candidate, once you break in then hypothetically the scenarios you are describing should make your life easier. I.e. if people are truly underqualified, then they will perform worse in the job, and if you are truly as qualified as you think you are, then you will do well. So as a result your life will actually be easier/you can perform better and get a better bonus/be top bucket if this dynamic really exists.

It isn't lost on me that getting first-rounds from a non-target/non-diversity is extremely difficult, I experienced it myself. But I think (and take it with a grain of salt because this could just be survivor's bias) if you are truly qualified, you will be able to break into the industry.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 8, 2022 - 11:53pm

This is definitely survivors bias. I had to lateral to a top BB group from a MM bank then break into a MF. I very easily could have not received an offer simply because I'm not diverse, which would have entailed me not receiving a BB offer that lead to my MF offer. Obviously this is a pipe dream, but who's the say I can't turnout to be the next Jamie Dimon / Lloyd Blankfein / Dan Loeb / Paul Singer? It would be a travesty if the next transcendent generational investor that is currently a non-target state school sophomore was not afforded an opportunity simply because they were born white / Asian in the wrong decade. If this happened to a potential URM candidate that could have turned out to be Robert Smith back in the 1950's / 1960's it was a travesty then too. This system should be reconstructed where merit is valued over this weird obsession with Race / Gender.

May 6, 2022 - 7:03pm
kodyclayton, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I go to one of the ivies and one of my friends in the top student-run investment fund (one that sends a few to BX/KKR PE and PJT RSSG each year) straight up didn't get any first rounds anywhere.

Granted he's an international Asian male and probably autistic as fuck during networking calls, but not getting a single first round at any of the BBs/EBs is straight ridiculous.

May 6, 2022 - 7:38pm
SavidDoloman, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Why would someone want to hire somebody that isn't fun to talk with on networking calls? Its not like you need to be a savant to do banking work. Theres a threshold in banking and its pretty low. Once you pass it it you aren't really getting much better as a candidate and personality plays way more into play.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 6, 2022 - 9:32pm

So it's okay to discriminate against high-IQ international Asians and label them as "autistic" or "not fun to talk with", but it's absolutely horrible to not hold Black / Hispanic candidates to the same threshold as middle class whites? It's literally never enough for the woke community.

If black / hispanic candidates want to be hired at the same % acceptance rate as their other asian minority counter parts, then they should work to change parts of their culture to where it isn't super focused towards athletics / pop music. 

May 7, 2022 - 12:55am
bands_bands_bands, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I mean to be fair, banking is about building/maintaining relationships at the higher levels, so if he is "autistic as fuck" during networking calls, he probably won't be good at bringing in deals.  I am sure if he's everything else you described him as he will get a high-paying job somewhere.

  • Prospect in RE - Comm
May 6, 2022 - 8:16pm

Lmao funny story: when I first started getting interested in IB, like at the VERY BEGINNING, I thought diversity meant people who weren't from target schools.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 6, 2022 - 10:57pm

congrats on your offer, you're poor we get it no need to whine. as for your friends, sucks to suck🤷‍♂️

  • Intern in HF - EquityHedge
May 7, 2022 - 1:07am

> Be non-diversity

> Complain about abhorrent diversity pipelines at banks and how they're completely unfair

> Still apply to said banks and do anything you can to work at them

People really have no back bone these days huh.

Non-diversity here; recruited into a top BB. Objectively harder for me than a diversity kid, but as soon as I got the offer I stopped giving a fuck. Tough to anyone who couldn't hack it, I'm glad my cohort was mostly chicks and not hardo pasty incels. Diversity recruiting makes the hard job harder to get, but if you were truly top 0.5% of the talent pool, it wouldn't be an issue.

  • Intern in HF - EquityHedge
May 7, 2022 - 11:53am

 Lots of racists said this about the civil rights movement in the 50/60s too

ok? Not sure why I care about what racist people did in the 50s/60s. I also breathe oxygen like they once did; not sure how that's relevant to anything I said. Just be the best: go to the best school, have standout qualities that come across well in interviews and have the best extracurriculars. They're still hiring non-diversity kids so do everything you can to be one of them.

End of the day diversity recruiting is out of our hands. All we can do is control what we can instead of moaning on WSO.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 7, 2022 - 1:17am

I think there's two things to take away from the situation:

1) URM and women undoubtedly have a substantial advantage in the hiring process. They literally have separate sophomore internship programs that you can only apply to if you fall into those categories. These programs are widely known (at least at my bank) to give you a real edge in the hiring process. Not to mention that being URM already gives you a big leg up into getting into a target school (you could make the argument that being a URM comes with socio-economic disadvantages, but literally every urm analyst I've worked with grew up in the burbs lol).

2) Just because this is reality doesn't mean you can't break into ib as a non-target white guy. I went to a good but non-target college, had a 3.6 gpa (stem major and athlete), and was not connected to anyone at the BB that hired me. You want to know how I think I got it (besides luck): I fucking sold myself on every networking call/interview and after a hundred rejections I finally got the SA role. If you want it bad enough, you will hustle and find a way.

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 7, 2022 - 2:19am

Lmao keep seething I love being black

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 7, 2022 - 7:42pm

your coworkers secretly think you are stupid

May 7, 2022 - 1:10pm
0to100, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Recruiting is ultimately about assembling a body that's good for the firm or school, not necessarily what's fair. Best you can do is try again and keep in mind you aren't owed anything despite all of your hard work. Tough pill to swallow. Good luck.

May 7, 2022 - 9:43pm
FinancelsWacc, what's your opinion? Comment below:

You diverse people can all sit on your throne and laugh and say that it's fair, but if you personally had friends who are getting absolutely screwed in favor of people who wouldn't even have been able to get into my school without affirmative action, you would feel the same way. 

I mean... that's exactly how it has been for the entire history of IBD / PE / HF... 

  • Principal in HF - Other
May 7, 2022 - 11:14pm

This is why I like HF much more than sell side.

If you're incompetent, it shows, nowhere to hide.

Your talent or lack thereof is exposed to the firm. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 8, 2022 - 5:02pm

For people who are having a tough time recruiting, there are so many investment banks out there that are great places but are just not hyped up by people on this prestige-obsessed site. Odds are they recruit later than the BB's, EB's, MF's, and MM's w/ .0001% acceptance rates. I would apply to one of those and then if you want try to a) leverage that for a bigger firm FT (has been done more times than I can count) or b) lateral later in your career. Your career is not going to be defined by the bank you start at. 

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 8, 2022 - 5:30pm

Is it really that easy to lateral or rerecruit FT? If I can't even get a summer offer, how am I supposed to get an offer when there are far less spots?

May 8, 2022 - 6:04pm
mysteryroop, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Wait a second since when have non-diverse semi-targets placed well outside of nepotism? Like yeah obviously the rich white frat dudes with connections from Fordham and WashU have always gotten into IB and they still are...besides that it's been rich white frat dudes from targets. If you're a non-diverse at a semi-target and don't have an offer don't be mad at the diverse candidates. Be mad at your parents for not being richer and having more connections. If you went to Brunswick --> Yale greek life in a decent house you'd have an offer no problem...you're just not that guy pal.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 9, 2022 - 11:23pm

Maybe you haven't seen the multiple comments from individuals on hiring committees on this thread that mention that true nepotism is like 5-10% of the class while diversity hires are 50-70%. Using "b..but nepotism hires!!" as a way to defend diversity hiring is completely retarded. Both of these hire categories should go to 0%

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 9, 2022 - 11:31am

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 9, 2022 - 8:47pm

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 9, 2022 - 11:20pm

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