Comments (152)

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 16, 2022 - 4:21pm

Great, another recruiting pity post. What is the point? Are you just asking people to feel sorry for you?

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 16, 2022 - 4:22pm

OP is talking about an SA class at his firm. relax

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 16, 2022 - 4:44pm

Yeah no shit, why does it make a difference whether it's his class or not? He's obviously Asian

  • Analyst 1 in PE - LBOs
May 16, 2022 - 5:35pm

If OP's statement is accurate, then why are you hating on him? If this is true (and it probably is) then the status quo is pretty fucked up

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 17, 2022 - 1:32am

Why do you assume I would give a shit about this? Literally everyone knows the street is full of Asian people, who cares if some random group at some random bank doesn't hire them? For all we know it could just be another WASP shop, noone gets worked up about those

  • VP in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 7:11pm

Based on this post, you may qualify for a diversity position but I'm thinking more like at Mcdonalds where they put a special badge on you and let you greet people at the door.

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 17, 2022 - 1:28am

Telling me to get a job at McDonald's AND as a greeter? very original

May 16, 2022 - 8:31pm
Sequoia, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Are you that completely lacking in empathy? To you it's 'another recruiting pity post' because you've seen a ton of them. For this kid, this is the first time he's seeing this play out. And he's remarking upon a FACT based on his SA class, not a generalized post. Chill dude

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 17, 2022 - 1:27am

yeah because "recruiting is brutal for Asian men" is totally not a generalized statement

  • Associate 2 in AM - Equities
May 16, 2022 - 11:03pm

Yeah jeez, clearly we found the angry URM hire 

Most Helpful
  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 5:45pm

To provide some context at the Wharton level, I'm also an Asian male at Wharton with a 4.0, near perfect test scores, internship at F500 company, etc. I still don't have an offer. Many of my non diversity friends are still muddling through the process, whether white or asian. Life is hard, but that shapes strong men. Keep up the hard work and I just hope we succeed in the long run.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 6:26pm

I had some Wharton 4.0 asians in my group (top EB) so it might be hard but not impossible 

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 6:34pm

Definitely, I know a few who have great offers at both top EB and BB. Just wanted to show that it's not going to be everyone at Wharton. I think it's part of growing up to start understanding that hard work is only one part of the equation for success, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't continue grinding. It's not impossible to get an amazing offer as an Asian. My personal viewpoint is that I can't control diversity recruiting pipelines or anything else "unfair", so the only thing I keep doing is putting in the work and hope it all works out in the end.

May 16, 2022 - 8:32pm
Sequoia, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Holy shit. When I recruited maybe 5-6yrs ago for SA IB, I had a 3.4 GPA (from APAC) and managed to get an offer at a top MM. Not great, but not terrible either. And I went to a top 3 B-school

To hear that an Asian guy with a 4.0 at Wharton can't get a single offer is insane 

May 20, 2022 - 3:26am
Frybird101, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Just bc some guy has a 4.0 doesn't mean he'll get the internship/job- there's more to it than just a GPA. No slight on the 4.0 from Wharton, it is impressive but it is also not the whole picture.

Controversial
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 6:33pm

Don't worry to much dude, if a White dude goes in China, recruiting will also be a "struggle". China is the most racist country on this planet (by far)

  • Prospect in IB - Cov
May 16, 2022 - 6:40pm

But would also caution you against classifying whole countries as racist--that's a very slippery slope

ie. people can be racist, governments can pass racist policies, cultures can promote racism but not sure how you can generalize a country to be racist--massive generalizations like that are the basis of polarization

  • Research Associate in AM - Equities
May 16, 2022 - 8:34pm

Wtf? Why are you assuming he's Chinese? 

Also is the takeaway that we should greenlight racism because it happens elsewhere? Ok, then in that case I'm guessing we should start segregating the water fountains?

May 16, 2022 - 9:20pm
PaleNimbusWhite, what's your opinion? Comment below:

lmao what an idiotic take. You must be the "hey don't be sad some people don't have food to eat" guy.

May 17, 2022 - 6:49pm
yopierre, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I'm just going to go ahead and point out why this comment is racist. You are comparing an Asian American in America recruiting to a random white person recruiting in China. But America is not an ethnically homogeneous nation, and was built by and inhabited by natives, Asians, Africans, Europeans (like literally all ethnic groups). Your analogy implies that the guy deserves his struggle because he's an outsider (the way that a white man would be an outsider in China), but he's not. He's just as American as you. You also attack state that China is very racist, implying that the difficulties the Asian guy faces aren't that bad. And did you perhaps bring up China because the guy is Asian himself, like he is somehow to blame for an entire countries actions? Literally levels of racism in this comment.

May 18, 2022 - 8:08pm
CiaronSmith, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Nobody wants go to 5th world countries like China.

Stop flattering yourself. Asians cut off their right arm just to get validation from light skinned caucasians and get that brand name US school.

Anything else?

The Asians (Orientals) and the Blacks are quite similar in this regard. They love feeling sorry for themselves.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
May 19, 2022 - 8:43pm

LOOOL mfer said "orientals" 💀

What is your issue with Asians, genuine question? You keep saying asians and blacks love feeling sorry for themselves, but there's pockets in every single racial group that does that for themselves. There's a myriad of white nationalist organizations that keep feeling sorry for whites because they believe this country is letting in too many non-whites. Just tell everyone why you hate asians and blacks bro - come clean

Funniest
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
May 16, 2022 - 6:38pm

People often say: diversity programs promote the best and brightest minds to succeed.

I've always struggled with this notion because 

If you state that you are giving 50% positions to men and 50% to women, you're creating a situation where women only compete with women and men only compete with men.

It's an implicit admission that women cannot compete directly with men in the workplace.

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
May 16, 2022 - 7:43pm

Is the fact that colleges now do affirmative action for men in order to have 50/50 classes by a sex an admission that men can't compete with women in school?

 
  • VP in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 7:28pm

Asian / Indian males have it the hardest to recruit, there's no question about this.  Field is rarely level though in life; in the grand scheme of things, being Asian / Indian and not being born into relative poverty already means you have a leg up.  Of course philosophical musings don't help you get the job so I'll tell you what I did; I just pretended that every time I failed to get traction after interviewing or networking, it was because my approach was deficient in some way and I tried to evolve it.  That way I made myself the best possible candidate I could be within the realm of things I could control and eventually I broke in.  And now that I broke in, the field became even again but I was relatively stronger than people who had an easier path and so my upward mobility has been positively impacted by the adversity.  Good luck!

  • Analyst 1 in PE - LBOs
May 16, 2022 - 8:39pm

^this is great advice and a great perspective.

May 16, 2022 - 9:57pm
SnappleApple, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Asian / Indian males have it the hardest to recruit, there's no question about this.  Field is rarely level though in life; in the grand scheme of things, being Asian / Indian and not being born into relative poverty already means you have a leg up.  Of course philosophical musings don't help you get the job so I'll tell you what I did; I just pretended that every time I failed to get traction after interviewing or networking, it was because my approach was deficient in some way and I tried to evolve it.  That way I made myself the best possible candidate I could be within the realm of things I could control and eventually I broke in.  And now that I broke in, the field became even again but I was relatively stronger than people who had an easier path and so my upward mobility has been positively impacted by the adversity.  Good luck!

At my old firm we had a lot of indians. Actually probably half of my group was indian descent (analysts).

  • Intern in PE - Other
May 17, 2022 - 8:04pm

Where is this? Asking for a friend

  • VP in IB - Gen
May 18, 2022 - 10:58pm
chairmanleague

That's honestly a wonderful take and perspective. It certainly is harder for Asians but unfortunately that is just how it is going to be now. Can I check if you were an international student too?

No, I wasn't international-that for sure adds another layer of challenge

  • VP in IB - Cov
May 16, 2022 - 7:41pm

All the good Asian / White males were already gone off the draft board at target school I was helping recruit at. Maybe your European BB just struck out w Wharton 4.0s. Let's be honest here - like the Stanford Asian kid who was saying how he wanted interviews / offers at "mid tier" banks to accelerate process at "top tier" banks - banks also know it's not worth wasting time for you little punks trying to trade offers. It's only after you struck out at Goldman and Evercore now you suddenly care about Citi and DB

  • Intern in IB - Gen
May 16, 2022 - 7:57pm

There are plenty of Asian and white guys at Wharton that I know do not have offers yet. These aren't average kids: they have leadership positions on campus, are in fraternities, have good internships, great grades, are good communicators, etc. You're underestimating the difficulty of recruiting nowadays in this broken system.

  • VP in IB - Cov
May 16, 2022 - 8:26pm

Unfortunate that RBC is generally first on campus, offers bunch of people but either these kids don't want to interview there or never accept. Run into so many who has RBC offers but keeps recruiting. That's why I have little sympathy for the gunners who won't "settle". You tried. You lost (against your peers) for a small number of opportunities. 

May 17, 2022 - 1:54pm
realtalk, what's your opinion? Comment below:

All the good Asian / White males were already gone off the draft board at target school I was helping recruit at. Maybe your European BB just struck out w Wharton 4.0s. Let's be honest here - like the Stanford Asian kid who was saying how he wanted interviews / offers at "mid tier" banks to accelerate process at "top tier" banks - banks also know it's not worth wasting time for you little punks trying to trade offers. It's only after you struck out at Goldman and Evercore now you suddenly care about Citi and DB

I know for a fact a few top tier Asian males who didn't make it through our HR filter, but ending up landing an offer at T1 BB or EB.

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 16, 2022 - 8:29pm

the worst part is that the Asian/Whites that do break in will be absolutely exceptional (or maybe through connections but let's assume I'm talking about the ones who broke in without prior connections) meaning that the bar is raised for the asians/whites that apply.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
May 16, 2022 - 9:04pm

All my Asian friends and Asian mentees have received offers for banking (non target state school). The main issue isn't being an Asian male, the main issue is that for whatever reason a lot of Asian males come off as very not chill/nervous/weird. When it came to mentoring a lot of the underclass men would pair up mentees who lacked social skill with mentors who were social/outgoing. At least when I had mentees, what helped him them out the most was just hanging out around normal people. They went from repeatedly mentioning WSO and only talking finance during our conversations to a more chill/interesting person and had no issues getting offers. I went out of the way though and introduced them to my social circles and made sure them transition from intense/socially odd to normal but still driven candidates.

May 16, 2022 - 9:53pm
SnappleApple, what's your opinion? Comment below:
realtalk

30ish junior interns this upcoming class, only 1 Asian dude who predictably has 4.0 from Wharton and perfect test scores. Rest of the class is several tiers below, many from schools you've never heard of. Struggle is real.

How many indians

May 16, 2022 - 10:17pm
AlphaMale69, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Companies can't keep hiring weaker candidates. Eventually this decision will catch up with them. Recruiting diversity shenanigans was getting crazy back in 2018 for me. Can only imagine now.

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 16, 2022 - 11:19pm

non target non diverse male who falls under one of these categories. landed 6+ interviews at firms that are highly coveted on here and now signed. to me biggest thing was networking and trying to treat networking calls as more formal phone calls w/ a friend whom you respect, found it way easier to make connections that way e.g. just talking about things other than finance or relating one of their answers to something outside, obv this does not work all the time but 90% of time it did. WSO resume review was super helpful for me as altho it cost a day or two's work $$$ having someone on the other end who knew what they were doing in order to make my resume look presentable was great I thought. something i dont see other kids i recruit w do enough is reach out to small/tiny ib boutiques for internships at beginning of year or late fall before recruiting, helps to have an incoming or previous ib sa (altho freshman year investment banking is totally ridiculously hard to get). 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 16, 2022 - 11:20pm

at end of day it's a total crapshoot on luck but i dont think anyone ruined their career in finance by not getting an sa job so if u dont think youll get anything to best to reach out to (maybe) smaller firms that recruit later. i rly enjoyed the cantor ppl for example. 

  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
May 16, 2022 - 11:41pm

As someone of Indian descent and a few years removed from the anxious college days, the best advice I can give is don't downplay your objective accomplishments so far. You'll get something eventually, and if not, an IB summer internship is hardly the only path to success.

Think about how much negative affirmative action has occurred against our ethnic group. Colleges for years have literally pushed actively to select against our race. Why? Because there's too many of us that do well. Think about how wild that is. Also, it's not like we are white and experience "privilege" (not that I believe in any of that; trying my best to stay apolitical here) that would make us "deservedly" unpreferential. Many of our parents came from scraps as immigrants to give us a better life.

Yet, look around. Indian (and Asian) Americans are still the highest median income ethnic group in  the US. We are only 6% of the US population yet 30% of Fortune 500 CEOs are Indian. Why? Competence and work ethic, period. In the long run, people get what they deserve.

Keep your head up, friends. WAGMI.  

  • Research Associate in AM - Equities
May 17, 2022 - 3:45pm

Good perspective. Though fighting such an uphill battle is really messed up, it's not dissimilar from that Kurt Vonnegut story in Harrison Bergeron where if you have anything above average, you are handicapped so others are not left behind. You can't spread your wings because someone is always clipping them so that you don't get in front of the flock 

Incentives tell us such a situation is just untenable LT. This is why share of innovation is declining in the U.S.

May 17, 2022 - 12:34pm
ConfusedGuru, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Unfortunately, if you made the mistake of being born an Asian or Indian male, you are going to play the game of Life on veteran difficulty. Whether it comes to getting into a good college, or landing a top notch internship, or receiving a full-time offer from a prestigious company, or just being taken seriously in social situations...it's just going to be that much harder for you. You will see peers of lesser qualification waltz into these coveted positions, and you're expected to smile through it. Oh, and don't get me started on dating. 

But look, the point is...it sucks and life isn't fair. We just need to be cognizant of our situation and work much, much harder than everyone else as sad as that sounds. I've been doing so and my life has been on an upward trajectory so far. If I continued to cry and complain and whine about my lot in life, I'd still be at square 0.

May 17, 2022 - 12:51pm
anothergodammasian, what's your opinion? Comment below:

what if you were born one of those in a middle class family? at this point do you just stop chasing america and look at other countries/your own country and see if you can get an internal transfer

May 17, 2022 - 4:30pm
IncomingIBDreject, what's your opinion? Comment below:

You probably would need to be fluent in your mother tongue for that to work. 

Array

May 17, 2022 - 10:21pm
ConfusedGuru, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Absolutely not; you stay put and you work hard. You deserve to be in the US just as much as the next person. The minute you leave is the moment they win. At the end of the day, the opportunities, the pay, the potential for social and economical mobility within this country...is nearly unbeatable. I've personally increased my TC by 5x just this year. I know just saying "work hard" is easier said than done, but you really do see the fruits of your labor after a certain point - it's just that, reaching this point is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Mostly tears.

  • Research Associate in AM - Equities
May 17, 2022 - 3:42pm

And have you actually gotten a decent offer?

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 20, 2022 - 5:15pm

Not to be a dick but you go to a non-target. It will be 'horrible and very tough' for anyone who goes to said school. Not trying to say this to be a dick, that's just how it is. You have to work 10x harder than the guys at Harvard for the same outcome regardless of your ethnicity. 

May 17, 2022 - 6:42pm
mooyi, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Maybe I'm just out of touch with the times, but does asian not count as a minority in Europe? Does that mean there are countries in Europe with a lot of asians there as % of population? If so, what countries are these? Or is this one of those things where they are minorities but earn a lot of money so don't get counted as minorities? 

May 17, 2022 - 10:50pm
4dn9, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Yeah it's kind of dumb that we Asian-Americans are objectively held to a higher standard than even whites when it comes to making it past gatekeeper institutions (universities, top employers, etc.). Just another injustice inflicted on us because we are the demographic with the smallest population/least political power in the US. We can only hope to do our best, advance in society, and hopefully make it better for the next generation.

May 18, 2022 - 12:34am
CiaronSmith, what's your opinion? Comment below:

This is delusional and incorrect. A mental "trick" to motivate yourself, perhaps. But not based in reality or mathematical analysis of any kind.

The amount of victimhood on this thread is absurd. 

You're held to the same standard as any other candidate. 

  • Analyst 1 in HF - EquityHedge
May 18, 2022 - 8:49am

Not based in reality? Then explain to me how the avg SAT score for admitted Asians at top universities is ~140 points higher than whites, ~320 points higher than Hispanics, and ~450 points higher than blacks.

I'm not against affirmative action or diversity recruiting but it's quite unfair that by any objective measure Asians are penalized for their race if we were to consider whites as the baseline.

May 18, 2022 - 5:58am
leetong203, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Oh man. The IB recruitment for Asian men at my top MBA program was brutal. I really felt for them. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
May 18, 2022 - 1:04pm

Convinced that the main reason they handicap asians is because there's just too many of them applying to these roles. I think if anything white americans and everyone else needs to evaluate why they're so uncompetitive relative to Indians and SEAs that they need to handicap them to get in. I'm not white nor asian, so I'll give a less biased perspective: I respect the hustle that Indians, for example, go through to get these jobs, but you guys inspire a low level of confidence in people sometimes because many times I've seen my Indian friends literally tell me that they just want to get the MM offer or lower BB offer to trade up, as well as an anecdote from my friend at GS (also Asian) who told me he saw an Indian kid delete his work when he went to the bathroom, etc. it seems like that breeds really negative stereotypes which don't apply to everyone, obviously, but that type of thing sticks and transcends into the rest of the system. It inevitably just becomes this endless cycle of it being a) there's a lot of asian applicants, b) they aren't scrupulous/loyal and c) anti-social stereotypes. It's sad because usually asians are the hardest working at any firm you go to. Hopefully this systematic discrimination improves because it is very depressing.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
May 18, 2022 - 8:47pm

Idk about Asian men, but at least at my BB, there seemed to be a disproportionate amount of Asian women. Like there might of been more of them than any other group of women. Asian women also on average tend to perform very well academically. What gives?

May 18, 2022 - 9:42pm
not_a_target_school_kid, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I think this is because Asian women come from the same socioeconomic background as Asian men (middle to upper class, good opportunities, parents who prioritize education, etc) but they also get the benefit of diversity (that Asian men don't get). So it's the combo of arguably best educational background/upbringing + diversity that makes them so prevalent in banking classes recently.

May 20, 2022 - 12:00am
CiaronSmith, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Asian women absolutely destroy group culture. The worst possible addition to a team trying to build a fraternal culture.

Nothing else.

They are the most uptight, humorless, uncreative and painfully, detrimentally rigid race of people on the planet. Rarely a value add in the long-run.

Just facts all these victims on the thread don't want to admit.

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  • Senior VP in AM - FI
May 19, 2022 - 11:36am

This thread is wild - people will say some crazy shit hiding behind a keyboard. 

Anyway, having been on the recruiting side from a long time now I don' think there is any conscious bias maybe unconscious for some people  but I don' think is structural industry wide. If anything larger firms have HR specifically trying to combat any of these issues.

The crux of the issue is that some people, regardless of race, believe certain metrics like a test score or gpa are the most important and that the higher the better and more deserving. This is far from true. These are just indications of the ability to baseline do the job and work hard. Hiring people is not some academic competition, despite what many (and mostly academically focused) people believe. Having excellent communication skills and interpersonal skills is significantly more important than having the highest gpa. This isn't a PhD program. Its possible that for some of the extremely academically focused students they are sacrificing a lot in terms of other growth aspects of college where they would be able to develop better communication/interpersonal skills. Or frankly aren't suited from a personality perspective for the field. In my experience, again regardless of race, the more socially awkward high gpa candidate will always lose to the relatively lower but still good gpa socially strong candidate - as those qualities are more relevant on the job, and even more so as one moves up the ranks. Candidates of all races fall into both of these buckets. Every candidate should realize this is the game (not academic decathlon) that is being played and adjust accordingly. 

May 19, 2022 - 3:48pm
Terrier, what's your opinion? Comment below:

There are just things that are just unfair, like Asian men being discriminated against in the online dating pool.  You can just bitch about it like OP or buckle up and be better. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 20, 2022 - 5:36pm

Can someone please explain to me what actually determines a group to be flagged as 'diversity'? 

Reasoning for my point:

US population is 60.1% White, 18.5% Hispanic, 12.2% Black, 5.6% Asian and the rest are negligible. How can firms justify flagging asians as non-minority but blacks or hispanics as a minority? They literally encapsulate double and triple the population of asians respectively. In a sense, asians are the smallest major ethnic group, and even then they aren't split to indian/chinese (i know this is a huge generalisation but i'm just going with those for simplistic purposes) but are generalised across the most ethnically diverse continent on the planet. 

Are the races categorised based on % of applicants for each? If so then I can see more of a case being made for the above. 

Regardless, does anyone else find it sad that we actively discriminate based on race? If anything, I think it actually perpetuates racial divisions/discourse. We should be 'discriminating' based on socioeconomic background. Encourage people from underprivileged households or lower-tier universities who may not have had the resources when young to sacrifice everything to study their life away and get into Harvard. I've heard (very anecdotally, don't have data to prove it) that a lot of the kids who get diversity roles are super privileged and so happen to be of a minority ethnicity. It's kind of shitty that kids, regardless of race, who haven't had life handed to them on a silver spoon are missing out on opportunities because another kid whose family donated a building to his university got his foot in the door. 

Idek. Those are just my 2 cents. For what it's worth, my background is very average. I'm a regular guy who went to a semi-decent (but by no means a target) university and broke his back getting into the industry. 

May 21, 2022 - 1:49pm
unknownmonkey37, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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May 21, 2022 - 2:00pm
Pio nono, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 22, 2022 - 1:56pm

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May 22, 2022 - 1:56pm
RexEdward, what's your opinion? Comment below:

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  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (17) $156
  • 1st Year Analyst (369) $150
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  • Intern/Summer Analyst (289) $91