A Pragmatic Take on Diversity Programs

Whether you like it or not, affirmative action programs are here to stay. These liberal ideologies have invaded almost every large institution and if you're not a person who benefits from them, it is possible that you could lose out to someone who does at any point in your professional career. Regardless of how ridiculous or unjust these policies are, there is literally nothing you can do to change them. If you're depending on an employer for your livelihood, you have to eat whatever bullshit they feed you, and you'll never get rich doing it. The only way to beat the game is to be self-employed, and if you were actually talented, you would be. So ratherย sitting around complaining on internet forums, go and develop real tangible skills that can be monetized to create your own income. The former is a loser's mentality, the latter is a winner's mentality.ย 

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Comments (76)

Jun 23, 2022 - 2:30pm
Ozymandia, what's your opinion? Comment below:
LinkedIn

Statistically not true

so.... provide the statistic?ย  I mean, if you're going to claim that, I assume you have the evidence handy.

Jun 22, 2022 - 12:45pm
kindheartedconsultant, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I mean I'd love to agree with you, truly I would, but when I was on recruiting team at Bain we would *specifically* pass over white males with far better stats/jobs in favor of someone with diversity. It wasn't even hidden. The bar was much higher.

Remember, always be kind-hearted.
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Jun 23, 2022 - 2:30pm
Ozymandia, what's your opinion? Comment below:

And when I worked in banking we hired the sons of people who were friends with the MDs, who objectively were the worst analysts on the desk.

Most Helpful
Jun 18, 2022 - 6:09pm
PrivateTechquity ๐Ÿš€GME๐Ÿš€, what's your opinion? Comment below:

roger__sterling

Whether you like it or not, affirmative action programs are here to stay.ย 

I reject the premise.

They said that about Roe vs Wade too and look where we are now. Cases are already being argued in court that diversity and affirmative action programs are just as racist and a violation of The Civil Rights Act as any policy that effectively results in segregation, whether the "minority" group involved is in favor or not is irrelevant. The defense used in favor of keeping "women in tech" or "coding for girls" programs in some schools/districts has been defended by reasoning that there are "similarly offered programs available that allow men/boys" which sounds eerily close to "separate but equal" if you put them next to each other. We're seeing a similar argument pop up from the transgender activists that the separation of bathrooms by the sexes is equally a violation as the Civil Rights Act explicitly says individuals cannot be discriminated against on the basis of sex in accommodations open to the public. Both side's arguments have legal standing and in my opinion logical merit. The only reason they weren't being made before was because the culture didn't conceive or wasn't aware of these ideas being implemented at scale.ย 

Law is enforced differently depending on which way the culture leans and I don't think it's inaccurate to say that the progressive left has poisoned the well for many Americans, both among the right and independents. Of the 3 groups progressives also tend to have the least kids, meaning that since people on average tend to get more conservative as they get older and conservatives have a birthrate slightly above replacement, it isn't unreasonable to expect to see a swing back towards conservatism. Compound this with the decreasing need to live in a large, liberal city to work certain career paths (thanks technology) and a sizeable migration away from public schools which have largely become where kids are first introduced to many progressive concepts, it makes sense that legal standings that were defended based on progressive ideas could fall out of favor over the next 20-30 years unless there's a significant demographic shift or change in currently observed behaviors. Good luck convincing the progressives you spent years telling kids are bad for climate change to flip to having a replacement birthrate, let alone a growing one. And it's not conservatives or independents pushing to legalize and provide affirmative care by carrying out procedures that sterilize children and young adults.

The only permanent things in life are death & taxes. Everything else, especially politics, is downstream from the culture. You should be able to see easily enough over just the past 10 years it can shift in a widely different direction than most anticipate. Substantially differential treatment in school admissions (both K-12 & higher ed) and the provision of services/facilities on the basis of race or sex, regardless of the intent and reasoning behind it, is technically against the law. All it takes is a quality lawyer or DA willing to take the case and constitutionalist judge to make some serious waves here. If you want that to be different, then you'll just have to change the amendments as they're written.ย 

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Jun 18, 2022 - 6:58pm
roger__sterling, what's your opinion? Comment below:

You could certainly be right, but you're missing the entire point of the post. Affirmative action is just one of a hundred illogical, unjust or illegal things your company could throw at you. They also forced you to inject yourself with a vaccine at the threat of termination. Maybe that's illegal too, but it doesn't matter, because they still did it and you were forced to comply or get out. It's AA today, but tomorrow it will be something new and you'll always be at its mercy as long as you're an employee.ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:59pm
sheldonxp, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Of the 3 groups progressives also tend to have the least kids, meaning that since people on average tend to get more conservative as they get older and conservatives have a birthrate slightly above replacement, it isn't unreasonable to expect to see a swing back towards conservatism.

The fault in your logic here is assuming that kids from conversative families will remain conservative. Many people I know were raised conservative and become progressive once they leave for college.

Jun 20, 2022 - 1:11pm
PrivateTechquity ๐Ÿš€GME๐Ÿš€, what's your opinion? Comment below:
sheldonxp

Of the 3 groups progressives also tend to have the least kids, meaning that since people on average tend to get more conservative as they get older and conservatives have a birthrate slightly above replacement, it isn't unreasonable to expect to see a swing back towards conservatism.

The fault in your logic here is assuming that kids from conversative families will remain conservative. Many people I know were raised conservative and become progressive once they leave for college.

Translated - Public schools and the majority of universities are indoctrination centers for leftism. Progressives don't have kids, they expose yours to their ideology and hope it sticks.ย 

This is totally true. I was considerably more left-wing and progressive-oriented when I left for and during the start of college (went to a liberal school on the coast too). But I also was exposed to actual facts and logical thinking while I was in school, and the overall experience ultimately made me become more conservative. Who's to say that trend doesn't become more common as universities become more unhinged with their political ideation and intolerance towards non-progressive viewpoints.ย 

This is why the move away from public schools to homeschooling/local learning pods is of such importance. The public school system is shit, we spend more than any other developed nation and don't even rank top 10 in results if memory serves. University quality is declining rapidly amongst both top programs as well as across the board as time goes on. Men are both enrolling and graduating at a decreasing rate as time goes on, which will cause a serious shakeup in dating demographics as well.ย 

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Jun 18, 2022 - 7:09pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Honestly I'd love if diversity programs meant you could be a complete dumbass and get a good position. It would make shit a lot easier for me. Unfortunately diverse candidates tend to be overqualified because of a need to overcompensate and ย because only the most ambitious students actually look to apply. Yeah you have dumbasses who skate by but you have the same with the dudes whose dad is golf buddies with an md.

Jun 19, 2022 - 5:07pm
MDR1, what's your opinion? Comment below:
us_ski2022

Honestly I'd love if diversity programs meant you could be a complete dumbass and get a good position. It would make shit a lot easier for me. Unfortunately diverse candidates tend to be overqualified because of a need to overcompensate and ย because only the most ambitious students actually look to apply. Yeah you have dumbasses who skate by but you have the same with the dudes whose dad is golf buddies with an md.

This is factually inaccurate. The data from the Harvard lawsuit, for example, shows that Black applicants are held to far lower standards than that of Asians & Whites and that their chance of getting into Harvard are far higher even when credentials are held constant. This is true across other institutions as well, not just Harvard.ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:24pm
monkey0114, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I remember seeing a linkedin post of a top BB's intern class recently in London and it was literally 10-20% white males and half of the white males there were continental European. Now given that the UK is around 86% white, I fail to see how this is fair in any shape or form. It was also around 20-25% black and the UK has a 3% black population.

Now using your argument that maybe the diversity candidates were simply better than the white candidates. If that were true, then doesn't that defeat the entire point of having diversity quotas in the first place? As if diversity perform better than the white British population, then the argument that they are systemically oppressed doesn't really hold up, does it?

Jun 20, 2022 - 4:09pm
nonu-r, what's your opinion? Comment below:

If that were true, then doesn't that defeat the entire point of having diversity quotas in the first place? As if diversity perform better than the white British population

I mean not really.ย 

The 'diversity candidates' who apply versus the 'diverse population' in general are not the same.ย 

It could very well be that the 'diverse candidates' who apply are more talented while the general 'diverse' population still faces significant barriers.ย 

Funniest
Jun 20, 2022 - 1:53pm
Isaiah_53_5 ๐Ÿ’Ž๐Ÿ™Œ๐Ÿ’Ž๐Ÿ™Œ๐Ÿ’Ž, what's your opinion? Comment below:
maplesyrup334

insert: companies are more profitable when their is diversity of thought.ย 

lol

their?

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

  • 2
Jun 19, 2022 - 10:44pm
Drumpfy, what's your opinion? Comment below:

If a company were to adopt blind admissions, and a candidates race, gender and name were not shown, then it would benefit minorities and disadvantage whites.ย  WSO always is worried about how affirmative action programs harm whites but pretend the opposite (hiring managers discriminating against minorities) doesn't happen.ย  Both are bad, but the latter happens much more often, and decades of studies have shown that if you send the same exact resumes with white sounding names they get more interviews than resumes with black or Asian sounding ones.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview#:~:text=In%202003%2C%20University%20of%20Chicago,counterparts%20with%20Black%2Dsounding%20names.

Jun 20, 2022 - 6:23am
K-Peezy, what's your opinion? Comment below:
Drumpfy

If a company were to adopt blind admissions, and a candidates race, gender and name were not shown, then it would benefit minorities and disadvantage whites.ย 

You're not wrong. The argument is, and should be, about what's an equal opportunity for everyone.

Jun 28, 2022 - 10:10pm
Friedmaneconomics, what's your opinion? Comment below:

What if we did away with names and genders on applications as well?

Wouldn't that be the most just and fair dealing pure to meritocracy?

Jun 20, 2022 - 5:10am
Beer-Kleiza, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Affirmative action should be illegal, its discrimination pure and simple. People who are against racism/discrimination but think this shit is fine, should get their fucking head examined.

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:02pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Such an ahistorical take. Juneteenth is the acknowledgment that even though the war had been over for 2 months, slavery continued in defiance of the emancipation proclamation. That hate doesn't ย just disappear, all aa programs do is acknowledge that black/Hispanic people are playing ย ball with cinderblocks on their feet while white people have been playing with Kobes

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:29pm
IncomingIBDreject, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Please rewrite this statement to something that is comprehensible.

Array

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:05pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I'd like you to take a look at operation wetback which deported us citizens of Hispanic descent in the 50s before you say some example of a white Argentinian ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:25pm
IncomingIBDreject, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Innocent Japanese were put into internment camps during WW2 yet do not count as diversity. Even using your angle of historical discrimination (which I don't think is the correct angle) current diversity programs are irrational.

Also weren't you the one who said Musk isn't African American because his ancestors were Europeans who took advantage of local South Africans? If you believe that then by extension you'd believe in "White Argentinians" as well.

Array

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Jun 20, 2022 - 12:45pm
Beer-Kleiza, what's your opinion? Comment below:

You can acknowledge injustices from the past and still think AA is very wrong.

You want to answer injustice from the past with injustice now. Why should white and asian people have to suffer from things from the past that they had nothing to do with.

How is it fair, for example if poor white and asian students are getting rejected in favor of black or hispanic students from (higher) middleclass or even wealthy neighborhoods.

If you want more acces to the best universities for certain groups, the focus should be on fixing education, a large portion of kids, especially in poorer neighborhoods aren't proficient in math for example.

Why not set restrictions to the legacy stuff?

Also Thomas Sowell has written extensively about this stuff, and he points out that affirmative action also lead to more academic failure from people who benefitted from such programs, because of underqualification.

Jun 20, 2022 - 12:51pm
financeabc, what's your opinion? Comment below:
Beer-Kleiza

Y

You want to answer injustice from the past with injustice now. Why should white and asian people have to suffer from things from the past that they had nothing to do with. How is it fair, for example if poor white and asian students are getting rejected in favor of black or hispanic students from (higher) middleclass or even wealthy neighborhoods.

I would agree if schools and companies were accepting totally unqualified people.ย  I only support affirmative action if the difference in characteristics is minor.ย  Then, I think it makes sense.ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 1:50pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

That's a straw man argument and you're citing Thomas sowell whose been published in 0 journals. While aa programs might unfairly benefit Lebrons son, stats tell us that black families are drastically less wealthy than whites/asians

Jun 20, 2022 - 11:08pm
Memberberries, what's your opinion? Comment below:
us_ski2022

That's a straw man argument and you're citing Thomas sowell whose been published in 0 journals. While aa programs might unfairly benefit Lebrons son, stats tell us that black families are drastically less wealthy than whites/asians

And whose fault is that? The black community has been voting for the Democratic Party since 1932! After 90 years the black community under Democratic Party governance is in total social collapse and remains miles behind all other ethnic communities economically. Maybe it's time for you leftists to acknowledge that your liberal/progressive public policy prescriptions are a failure. But you won't do it. Instead, we can expect another 90 years of the black community doing the same thing and failing.ย 

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Jun 20, 2022 - 11:15pm
Memberberries, what's your opinion? Comment below:
us_ski2022

That's a straw man argument and you're citing Thomas sowell whose been published in 0 journals. While aa programs might unfairly benefit Lebrons son, stats tell us that black families are drastically less wealthy than whites/asians

Btw, Sowell has been published in a lot of journals. Here is his complete list of works.

https://www.tsowell.com/writings.html

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Jun 20, 2022 - 1:52pm
us_ski2022, what's your opinion? Comment below:

The thing is those injustices are still affecting life today. John Lewis died recently and was affecting politics; how about the people who opposed him?

Jun 20, 2022 - 6:27pm
mrebeazy, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Thomas Sowell:ย "What I most disliked about Harvard was that smug assumptions were too often treated as substitutes for evidence or logic. The idea seemed to be that if we bright and good fellows all believed something, it must be true."ย 

Wouldn't take his views as unfettered truth. The evidence and logic surrounding AA outweigh his critiques of it.

Jun 20, 2022 - 11:02pm
Memberberries, what's your opinion? Comment below:

mrebeazy

Thomas Sowell:ย "What I most disliked about Harvard was that smug assumptions were too often treated as substitutes for evidence or logic. The idea seemed to be that if we bright and good fellows all believed something, it must be true."ย 

Wouldn't take his views as unfettered truth. The evidence and logic surrounding AA outweigh his critiques of it.

What, specifically, is the logic behind affirmative action? After almost 60 years, how, specifically,ย has it served the black community in any material way? The American black community is in total social collapse under the weight of fatherlessness, drugs, crime, violent crime, and anti-intellectualism. The black community, in some ways, may be worse off today than it was before the civil rights movement. Affirmative action has served no one except a few middle- and upper-middle class blacks who would have done just fine without affirmative action. But AA helps white progressives go to bed feeling good about themselves as every single white progressive policy has destroyed the black community. Like a good progressive, when your policies fail the next move is to double and triple down on failure. Affirmative action is a failed public policy and every honest person recognizes that.ย 

Array

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Jun 20, 2022 - 2:06pm
Isaiah_53_5 ๐Ÿ’Ž๐Ÿ™Œ๐Ÿ’Ž๐Ÿ™Œ๐Ÿ’Ž, what's your opinion? Comment below:
roger__sterling

Whether you like it or not, affirmative action programs are here to stay. These liberal ideologies have invaded almost every large institution and if you're not a person who benefits from them, it is possible that you could lose out to someone who does at any point in your professional career. Regardless of how ridiculous or unjust these policies are, there is literally nothing you can do to change them. If you're depending on an employer for your livelihood, you have to eat whatever bullshit they feed you, and you'll never get rich doing it. The only way to beat the game is to be self-employed, and if you were actually talented, you would be. So ratherย sitting around complaining on internet forums, go and develop real tangible skills that can be monetized to create your own income. The former is a loser's mentality, the latter is a winner's mentality.ย 

They are not here to stay. It could be 50 - 100 years, but this is temporary.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Jun 20, 2022 - 2:31pm
Teller in Branch - Personal Loans, what's your opinion? Comment below:

"So ratherย sitting around complaining on internet forums, go and develop real tangible skills that can be monetized to create your own income."

IU Kelley guys did

VP
  • 1
Jun 20, 2022 - 2:37pm
SoraisWind, what's your opinion? Comment below:

This is the first generation that has to deal with it. Lets face it, diversity movements at big firms are not unfair. Decades of a monotonous workforce had established in high finance, and now it seems that is 'proven' that a diverse team actually performs better in terms of results (and there is also the 'socialy correct' incentive for companies). When in a couple of decades things normalize again, (the workforce has become balanced in terms of diversity) these programs will disappear. Like, at the moment J.P. Morgan has more women than men (if it ever happens), there will be no more priority for women, it will be balanced. And that generation will comeback to normality. But now, yes, there is a preference for diversity candidates.

Jun 20, 2022 - 4:31pm
mrebeazy, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Lol dudes on here using Thomas Sowell and Japanese internment to justify why AA is bad. 1) Wouldn't take anything at face value from self-hating academics just because they have a couple of prestigious degrees when their ideologies are riddled with fallacies. 2) Can't use a subsection of a highly educated population and apply it to the masses. Viets, Cambodians, Thai, Filipinos, and Laotians are among some of the most impoverished and undereducated Asian groups. What about them?ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 6:12pm
IncomingIBDreject, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Just because I used one example does not mean that I saw that example to be an exhaustive list of all examples. Yours work as well.ย 

Array

Jun 20, 2022 - 10:49pm
Memberberries, what's your opinion? Comment below:
mrebeazy

Lol dudes on here using Thomas Sowell and Japanese internment to justify why AA is bad. 1) Wouldn't take anything at face value from self-hating academics just because they have a couple of prestigious degrees when their ideologies are riddled with fallacies. 2) Can't use a subsection of a highly educated population and apply it to the masses. Viets, Cambodians, Thai, Filipinos, and Laotians are among some of the most impoverished and undereducated Asian groups. What about them?ย 

This take makes no sense. It takes 2 seconds to look up this information. Vietnamese American household median income is slightly above the national median and American-born Vietnamese is about 22% above the national median.ย 

Array

Jun 20, 2022 - 6:23pm
mrebeazy, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Got it, but your example was off base with broader historical/social conditons around AA. Just wanna make sure we're seeing every dimension.

Jun 20, 2022 - 6:35pm
2rigged2fail, what's your opinion? Comment below:

how empowering would it be to, you know, not feel the need to be empowered.ย 

Jun 20, 2022 - 10:45pm
Memberberries, what's your opinion? Comment below:
roger__sterling

Whether you like it or not, affirmative action programs are here to stay. These liberal ideologies have invaded almost every large institution and if you're not a person who benefits from them, it is possible that you could lose out to someone who does at any point in your professional career. Regardless of how ridiculous or unjust these policies are, there is literally nothing you can do to change them. If you're depending on an employer for your livelihood, you have to eat whatever bullshit they feed you, and you'll never get rich doing it. The only way to beat the game is to be self-employed, and if you were actually talented, you would be. So ratherย sitting around complaining on internet forums, go and develop real tangible skills that can be monetized to create your own income. The former is a loser's mentality, the latter is a winner's mentality.ย 

I don't understand this take. The Supreme Court is poised to overturn affirmative action as unconstitutional sometime in 2022, so calling it a permanent feature is sort of weird timing.ย 

Array

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Jun 21, 2022 - 5:09am
sprezzatura, what's your opinion? Comment below:

I'm a minority who benefits from this sort of stuff and I personally hate this shit and find it incredibly patronizing. I like to think that I've worked really hard for whatever I've achieved (sports, career, grades, etc.) and diversity nonsense throws all that into question. Furthermore, I am fortunate to come from a very well-off family and the HR bureaucrats would like me to think that despite my financial privilege, poor white people somehow have it easier than me. Regardless of individual politics, I find it objectively false that I have it harder than some poor white kid from Appalachia just because of my skin color but somehow this is actually what a nontrivial portion of the country believes.ย 

My parents are immigrants, and my dad's perspective on AA and diversity programs was pretty insightful to me. He grew up poor as hell living in a slum and was the first in his family to graduate high school. The only reason he escaped the shithole he grew up in and is able to financially support us and his family back home is because he got into an elite university back home which only used test scores as an admission metric. His view is that if there was AA and things like admissions essays, extracurriculars, etc. where he came from then he would've never made it out because he just couldn't afford any of that stuff. It is absolutely batshit insane to me how Americans have chosen to completely throw merit out the window in order to satisfy their moral guilt and savior complexes.ย 

Probably the most alarming aspect of these programs to me is how they've seeped into practically every part of the knowledge economy. Industry and government of course but most importantly to me, academia, research, and science as well. We're actively dumbing down the most critical parts of society.ย 

Jun 21, 2022 - 9:29am
Lawrence3, what's your opinion? Comment below:

If you're just coming out of school (when AA and diversity programs most affect you), it is almost guaranteed you do not have the skills to be self employed successfully. It's bad advice to suggest that everyone can start their own business. Someone working in finance should understand risk tolerance, and should understand economics enough to know we need workers and laborers.

We shouldn't just accept radical ideologies because they've overtaken many institutions. If you did a blind American survey, I think you'd be shocked at how few people actually support these policies. They're just too afraid of losing their jobs to speak out publicly

Jun 21, 2022 - 11:29am
Friedmaneconomics, what's your opinion? Comment below:

https://www.aflegal.org/hotline - Stephen Miller finally taking on the racism of Affirmative Action citing Morgan Stanley as of recently. Put it in and let's end this crap. Posting this on all diversity threads

Jun 21, 2022 - 3:33pm
quantanalyst23, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Take: companies arnt profitable because they hire diverse candidates. They are profitable and therfore can hire diverse candidates. It's a common logical error. This is diworsesifying not diversifying. Hire the top candidates no matter what. At this rate firms will be targeting individuals with mental disabilities for the sake of diversity of thought

Jun 21, 2022 - 3:43pm
goldenlocks21, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Unde amet beatae sint ut. Blanditiis nostrum minima officiis quod minima iste. Aut et architecto suscipit ducimus qui ullam voluptatibus eum.

Facere reiciendis saepe nulla et. Quia quis magnam doloribus qui quis nesciunt. Mollitia in ut repellat est.

Non recusandae qui optio sunt. Impedit exercitationem sint quibusdam rerum. Suscipit ad suscipit sed. Architecto tempore ipsam nobis tenetur harum et. Quis aut consectetur error maxime quo quam.

Jun 23, 2022 - 1:57pm
neink, what's your opinion? Comment below:

Totam delectus aut nihil voluptatem. Voluptatem ut quaerat impedit et veritatis. Quia tenetur non reprehenderit corrupti eaque cum illo quaerat.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

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