Ok, let's assume you are a graduate, you have 3 offers.
- GS/MS commodities division, you'll usually do some random stuff and projects for 2 years before actually doing any kind of trading.
- A place like Glencore/Vitol etc... You spend 2 years at back/middle office before joining traders.
- BP/Shell/Total, again 2-3 year grad program where you do random stuff.
Which one is best 5-10 years down the line in term of career opportunities and pay ?
Bonuses at banks are getting terrible, the only ones who get paid are those who threaten to leave while having some obscure book nobody understands. But I don't really know if going with other choices would be better.
Thanks !
How to Choose a Commodities Trading Career Path
Breaking in to commodities trading, as with many industries in finance, is difficult. While there are occasionally posts for trading assistant positions, very few firms hire direct out of undergrad.
Joining any of the oil majors can be a great training ground for learning about trading. Many of the top traders at Glencore and Vitol started out at either BP or Shell.
There are many factors that influence the long-term: personal preferences, performance, industry trends, etc. Here are some insights from WSO community members onoil major trading programs and their long-term prospects.
Recommended Reading
Are you saying you have offers of all three types?
Fucking retarded question. But in all honesty, who do you think suffers/will suffer less from regulations? I think the answer is obvious.
Wow, a fellow HoN rager?
All of the above obviously have their merits, however, i would probably actually recommend the BP/Shell path if you are looking to build a long career in the business. A lot of the top traders at places such as Glencore and Vitol started out at either BP or Shell. I'm not sure how proven the grad programs at the trade houses are yet as a route to ultimately becoming a trader.
BP program. I know guy at UCalgary who did the IST program and he's loves it, and says he can't complain about anything except the weather in Calgary.
vitol hires out of undergrad now?
The 2-3 years timeline is optimistic for some products though.
people with tons of experience in industry might actually kill for those trader assistant positions i just can't see why they'd actually take an undergrad
How much in opportunity cost would you give up to pursue something like this? Let's say you have a significant amount in deferred bonusses (in energy, doing random stuff) but have opportunity to go in as analyst in some product with opportunity to trade down the road (depending on you obviously). How much would you walk away from? Would be interesting to get a sense of how much people are willing to give up to pursue something opportunistic but not guaranteed. Try and attach a $ figure to it.
Also, what do you guys think actual bonuses are for the average trader (not the superstar). I've heard they aren't all that different from all the other folks, but this is mostly based on some anecdotal points and not hard data.
Hey monkies, so I got offered an interview this afternoon. This position could easily lead into a physical trading role after 2 years. That being said, I would leave a lot of money on the table (deffered cash bonusses) that would be a pretty large offset if I don't get a singing bonus (even then I would likely leave a significant amount on the table).
I'm curious, given similar opportunity and trade-off, what would be the $ amount you would attach to that? How much would you walk away from? Yesterday I posted it thinking more general strategy for career development, but as it turns out I may face exactly that circumstance here shortly.
Any advice is greatly appreciated
Thanks!
even if you make it you have to not blow up. think you can learn everything there is to know in 2 years or are people like vitol/trafigura going to rip your nuts off? the energy industry is tiny and everyone will know.
something to think about since everybody is on the energy bandwagon nowadays
How is anyone supposed to attach a dollar sign to that without knowing the exact job you're leaving and the firm you're joining? Besides, the $ amount will further depend on your risk aversion. If you'd rather be a trader than doing random stuff, take it.
You dont go significantly wrong with either of these choices. I would stay away from the banks as many commodity groups are leaving. I would go to Shell or BP and learn the commodity business from the ground up. Once you have 5-7 years of experience your solid to run a book at a trafi, glencore, or vitol.
Thanks for the input! I purposely kept details on the low end, but here is some background. I came from a solid strategic / front office type role in energy. Deferred bonusses will make up about 140-150K over next 3 years (split out to be 50, 25, 70). All in comp currently incl. base, bonus and retirement is approx 125. That means the next 3 years with deffered cash included, the total comp each year will be 170, 150, 195K respectively. These numbers may fluctuate a bit, but close enough for our purposes.
I was recently moved into a "non front office" role but not exactly a "learn from the grounds up" role either. It's more about dealing with support groups and third parties where we are the customer. I'll keep this vague, but suffice to say some people make great careers out of it but I doubt it's something most people on this board would want. Weird move (but not uncommon to see odd moves here)
There will be potential to move internally in the future, but it's a question of when. There are a lot of changes but I doubt I'm seriously being considered at this time. I know I won't ever be in the main commercial roles here so that's something to consider. The alternative is the interview which is for another company in a crude market analysis role, doing analysis and lending support / making recommendations to trading. The advantage here is that the company has production and refining, so you get to look inside the black box and understand both sides. The experience is largely complementary to work I've done before. It may lead to trading (or it may not), but the experience and opportunities from there would be much better over the span of a career. That being said, it's unlikely there is a signing bonus so in essence it "costs" 140-150K over 3 years (40-50K within 1 year).
I'm meeting internally with some people to discuss potential internal moves, but gut feeling is to suck it up and make the jump. More enjoyable work and better long term experience. I somewhat agree that neither option is significantly wrong but the timing is obviously not optimal. Thoughts?
My apologies for hi-jacking the thread, hopefully it's somewhat relevant to others reading this
Your post was too long for me to read, but if you want the new job and don't want to lose any deferred comp, get the new firm to match your (soon to be) old firm's deferred comp or put it against the draw, if they won't just give it to you. i I doesn't seem like very much money in the grand scheme of things. It is very common and is just a part of doing business, assuming they really want you to join.
that didnt make sense
Quas ratione nobis repudiandae molestiae aut ut. Quia facilis dolor tempora ipsa placeat non. Nihil ullam temporibus sit dolor. Aliquam vero suscipit est quia est a architecto. Laudantium alias sit corporis aut. Ea repudiandae veniam dolores rem sit.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...