3rd year Harvard Medical School student thinking about high finance transition- am I being realisitc?
Hello-
As the title states I am currently in medical school and have recently been seriously reconsidering my future as a doctor. I will make this as brief as possible as I know we both are very busy individuals.
Background- 24 y.o male
Biomedical engineer @ top 25 program
3.8 GPA, 95th percentile MCAT
Top 85th percentile med school class ranking
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Went into med school strongly thinking neurosurg or orthopaedics. Just finished 3rd year clinical rotations and have not found a field of interest (seriously have looked into everything). I really do enjoy helping and connecting with patients, however I am heavily gravitated to learning the critical thinking and technical aspects of the profession, which I have learned are actually not what you spend the majority of your time doing as a doc. Much time is spent into rote memorization with little creative opportunities. I even looked into the more cerebral fields like radiology, which was very enjoyable from a academic standpoint, however I did not like the lack of human contact.
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I started looking into high finance because of the strategic and technical aspect of the field that was combined with a highly social nature (Was in a fraternity and raged pretty hard back in the day). Money is not a major motive (give me ~100k and I'm good)! I am driven by intrinsic factors such as the need to succeed and compete to be the best.
*Investing and finance seem very interesting to me in that they remind me of my engineering days where lots of critical thinking and technical knowledge combined with creativity are need...much different and engaging than the stifling rote knowledge I learned in medical school.
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If I make this transition into high finance I would want to do it right given my opportunity costs. First off, do you think I have the right motivations to make the switch and if so, what would be possible paths to break into high finance. I was thinking about ER in healthcare sector but am open to other options. I am currently getting a major in finance at HBX (Harvard business extension school) and am really enjoying the principles being taught.
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Aside- I am very motivated, easy to work with, and eager to learn. My chops are well done and primed for some world class wso input.
Thanks everyone!
P.S. Planing to take a research year next year and will have time to network, then will finish degree afterwards.
Assuming not a troll, finish your med degree, work for a health care company/startup for a bit, and then either network into a direct role or go to a top MBA school to easily get into a strong healthcare team
Thanks for the response and not a troll- planing to finish the degree for sure. What role do you think I could leverage my medicine knowledge with?
All of the BBs have healthcare investment banking coverage teams, but you might want to be on the healthcare PE/VC side
You could definitely get an ER role at a hedge fund with that background.
Awesome sounds good, I'll look more into it.
I was in your shoes around 15 years ago. From just about the start of med school I knew I didn't want to spend 30+ years practicing medicine. But, due to family/friends peer pressure I went ahead and did it. "Medicine is the most noble degree" is what I was they said, and being young I drank it up. To best answer your question(s) I'm going to go line by line and give you my thoughts but take it with a grain of salt- after all I'm an anonymous poster on the internet.
Q: Went into med school strongly thinking neurosurg or orthopaedics. A: Think about it- med students are smart and highly driven. Very rarely do people say "I want to take care of a smelly, gangrenous diabetic foot". You would be surprised at some of the experiences that are not very flattering but needed to be done. This SNL skit below rings true unfortunately. And no, it usually isn't a can of axe body spray but usually a "toy". I'm a new user and can't post links so google:
APPALACHIAN EMERGENCY ROOM: FERRET ON A DING DONG
Just watch...
There are research articles floating around looking at how specialty decisions are made/changed through med school. The number I recall is around 2/3 of students change their mind throughout the process. Look it up. You have another year to figure it out.
Q: I am heavily gravitated to learning the critical thinking and technical aspects of the profession, which I have learned are actually not what you spend the majority of your time doing as a doc A: No Sht dip sht (sorry, tough love). You shouldn't have to be thinking about this stuff once you do it hundreds of times. That's what residencies are for. Only ~ 2-3% of my cases stump me and yes, I figure it out. Guess what- after you get out of residency you then learn how to do it "private practice style". Yes, there can be a big difference, especially in surgical fields. Also, you're going to have to deal with idiots regardless of what field you go into, and, dealing with insurance is a b*tch but other people in different fields can be just as difficult.
Q: Much time is spent into rote memorization with little creative opportunities A: I felt the same way when I was in your shoes. Listen, this is med school. You might have heard this before but a common expression about med school is "trying to catch all the water out of a fire hydrant in your mouth". Heard it multiple times from multiple people. They are there to expose you to as much science, information and experience as possible in the time allotted.
Q: Investing and finance seem very interesting to me in that they remind me of my engineering days where lots of critical thinking and technical knowledge combined with creativity are need...much different and engaging than the stifling rote knowledge I learned in medical school A: See above. BTW, if you stick it out a little longer you'll find there are "styles" or "schools of thought" on certain issues. Especially if you're interested in the surgical specialties. Your training can vary, dependant on what region of the country/residency you go to. If you do it long enough you'll develop your own style and you'll look like a rock star if you're any good.
Deep thoughts by Jack Handy: I won't make any comments on your finance thoughts/experience except this- "I am currently getting a major in finance at HBX (Harvard business extension school)". Are you out of your F*cking mind! Don't allow them to drag you into another year(s) of schooling. It's expensive. Talk about opportunity cost...
Final thoughts: Here's what I would suggest. 1) Finish school in 4 years- no research. You'll be doing what a monkey could do in a lab setting. 2) Complete an internship through the match- it doesn't matter if it's transitional or general surgery.Yes, this is a VERY important part of your training. You won't be able to start to put all the pieces of the puzzle together unless you do this step. 3) Pass your USMLE step 3. 4) Okay, now you're a "real" doctor that can be licensed (but not likely to get malpractice insurance without finishing a residency). Now you have some options: 1) Research, 2) Business (healthcare sector or something unrelated), 3) Go ape sh*t crazy- a trip around the word- heck, join doctors without borders for fun. Either way this buys you time to figure it out.
As for me, I'm now ready for the career transition over to commodities and starting the process. Did it take longer than expected? You bet your ass, but looking back I don't think I would have the wherewithal/experience/maturity to do it if I had done it years ago. I wouldn't trade my experiences looking back.
Hope this helps and good luck!
At my H/S/W MBA program, we had several people who were either finishing up their MD or already had completed an MD in the past. Have you considered applying to HBS?
I have and am planing to take the GMAT during my gap year (solid study time next year between my third/fourth year) in order to have back up options, however I am a little hesitant to immediately jump into the post mba market without significant premba finance experience. Do you think my concerns are well warranted?
Hope it wasn't my posts on the student doctor network forum that convinced you to leave med school; your plan isn't a bad one, but it would have helped if you didn't start med school to begin with for IB. You'd be a better fit in ER or something directly related to pharmaceutical development; you should finish your degree and then consult or work for a biotech startup and then transition into something else
I hope you aren't looking to leave medicine and get into finance because of the long hours and the bullshit assignments, because I have some news for you...
No, I understand that the "scut and shit" will still be there. Looking mainly for greater career flexibility down the line.
bump!
It sounds like you're not wavering too much on this, but definitely agree with others here: finish your degree. I'm in a somewhat analogous situation (emphasis on somewhat), as I finished at a top Ivy law school and am now gearing up to transition into IB. My situation is different because I'm now a mid-level M&A attorney and have deal experience under my belt, but as others have pointed out, I think you'll find that your HMS degree will turn out to be an experience strength for you - particularly in healthcare IB groups or PE groups that focus on healthcare/biotech/pharma. Maybe your first step should be to decide whether you really want to gun for IB or try to go directly into PE/HF - just make sure you have an answer as to why (for yourself first, then for others - i.e. interviewers).
One potential way to get M&A/deal experience would be to setup an internship (I know your schedule is already demanding) with a non-IB M&A advisory firm or even an internal deal/business strategy team at a major hospital or healthcare group - even if it's just a part time/once or twice a week internship, which you could probably not swing at an actual IB at the moment given your time commitments. It would give you deal experience for your resume, if nothing else.
Feel free to PM me if you want to bounce ideas at some point.
My own brother was doing a pre-med/ pharmacy program. Didn't do well and also complained that he didn't want to be a doctor. Asked him to transfer to a Master degree in pharmacy. Helped him secured an advisory internship with Big Four focused on pharma sector. Coached him on networking and preparing on job interviews. Was never exposed to IBD/Finance/Consulting prior to this. Now doing full time management consulting role at a boutique pharma focused shop. Happy to answer any questions if you have. PM me.
LOL at any of the clowns who seriously think the average person in IBD could've gone to med school.
And not just any med school, fucking Harvard med.
Your biggest challenge will probably be convincing people that you actually want to go into business. Express interest in a concentration like Healthcare Management or something like that
Try starting a hedge fund and shorting subprimes
Honestly, I would just concentrate on the MD. If after couple years in the field you realize that it is not for you, then go do an MBA. I know a doctor who did his MD at an Ivy, worked a number of years and then did his MBA at HBS. He now is involved with running the hospital. Very successful man and incredibly intelligent. He has the best of both worlds, involved with management and can see patients as well.
Also, I have a brother that used to work with cardio surgeons and they would trade on the side. If you have an itch for finance that could be a way to help you scratch it.
Anyone who thinks a FO gig at a bank is harder to get into than Harvard fucking med is delusional. You go to THE most prestigious med school in the world and these days, no Ivy League grad even wants to do banking.. They do HF/PE/VC/Software Engineering. You could probably break directly into banking without any prior experience simply because you have already proven your intelligence and discipline. Just be careful what you're getting yourself into. 100 hour weeks making $120K is a pitiful life.
Ex M&A here, did a lot of healthcare. I've always wanted to become a doctor, ever since I was a little girl. Had good grades throughout school and everyone said I should get into medicine. Did a scholarship during high school and realized I had ZERO interest in it. How did I realize that? I just felt very misplaced around people that had genuine interest in the field. I felt like an outsider, simply didn't share the passion for it. Decided to completely rewind there and then and started searching online for the most demanding jobs out there for people with top grades, I also spoke to classmates with straight A's or equivalent and some of them mentioned IB, that's how I discovered it initially. But HAD I studied medicine and THEN decided to make a career move then I would probably have looked at:
All those three have lots of ex doctors. Don't join banking.
Just to update everyone- really appreciated the responses and ended up deciding to stick with medicine. Going into radiology- find it really interesting and has great salary with work/life balance.
Would be interested in hearing an update now, how are things in rads?
It is not the pre-mba finance experience that will hurt you, it is the no real work experience at all pre-mba that will be the main hurdle for you. Honestly, you should have realized that medicine was not the right career for you sooner; you did 4 years of pre-med and 3 years of med school already. Hence, if you really want to join a FO office role that is not a hedge fund you will need to obtain the standard credentials: some type of work experience, preferably in finance, MBA at a top 5 school (which I think you can get fairly easily) and finally nail your story/interviews of why you want to make the switch. By the time you graduate from your MBA it would be what, 2021? Meaning, you would be 28-29? That's pretty average for MBA students so it wouldn't be that bad age-wise, but from now until you apply to an MBA you need to get some real-life work experience. I suggest you take internships at MM PE funds or VC funds, even if they're unpaid. Maybe intern at some MM investment bank part-time. Anything would help AND allow you to realize if banking is really what you want to do.
I know 2 people that are currently Healthcare ER Analysts at BB who worked in research with MD PHD degrees. This is definitely possible but finish your track first.
No fucking way this is not a troll post
Seeing some iffy advice here. I was once in similar shoes. I was premed in college all the way until senior year - I even took the MCAT and got a 516 (I point this out to show I was pretty serious about the premed thing). Decided being a clinician wasn't for me and am now an analyst at a top 5 biopharma IB group a couple years after the fact.
First of all, your "hardcore science" background would certainly be appreciated by biopharma or medical device focused HFs, and VC funds. In fact, you have a really perfect background for a biotech VC fund, which generally take people from a pretty narrow set of backgrounds. You could also consider investment banking, but you should really have a solid shot at going straight to the buyside (which is the goal of most people in IB). Also, it may be worth looking at business development roles at Pharma companies (preferably large cap companies). If you want to start getting experience in this space, start brushing up on current events in the biotech space (the endpoints daily newsletter is great), and look for internships or fellowships. DOCjobs is a great resource for this.
Also, I saw an MBA get mentioned a few times. I think this may be a good idea - namely as it would give you more time to gather internship experience before you graduate and would be expected to have a FT role. Education wise - MBAs aren't really that helpful in my opinion.
Feel free to PM with any questions - more than happy to chat.
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