99+ %ile gmat EDIT: also, GRE
i guess i'm gonna get a lot of hate for this. i know gmat isn't everything, i know it "doesn't matter" after a 700 (or 720 or 740 or whatever.), and i know too high of a score may even hurt your applications. and it all makes sense. but anyway, there are lots of people supposedly scoring 780s and 790s around here. hey, even 799s...so i thought i'd ask anyway.
i'll keep it simple and hope for answers to my specific questions:
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what are the best resources for someone aiming for 780, 790 or 800? what are the best sources of difficult questions?
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i have heard mention of some 780+ gmat forum somewhere, but haven't been able to locate it. can anyone help me out?
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what are some of the things you (>=780 lot) tried out when preparing? i took a third practice test yesterday and tried to finish 10 minutes early for each section...seems like a good practice. can you recommend anything else?
i took the gmat once about 6 months ago and got 99 %ile. but i thought i had a terrible run on test day. and i hadn't prepared much either. i had taken the two official practice tests and got 770 and 780, and then studied maybe 15 or 20 hours. so i do want to take it again, and this time i want to prepare for it like most other people do - i have some time to kill, maybe a month or so.
can you help me out? (calling me an idiot or troll does not count...)
ps it might not make a difference in admissions, but i think in terms of what it takes to get a 790 vs a 760, there is a big difference. i guess i'm toying with the idea of taking it again because i want to get the score that is right for me, given one more attempt and average preparation...
EDIT: Does anyone have any experience with the GRE? I mean with scoring above 1550? I'm in the same boat with the GRE as with my GMAT (see OP). Have a decent score, low 1500s (800q)...should be 98%ile of something, am just guessing. but again, didn't prepare well for the test and think i can do better (maybe hit 1600). do you think it makes more sense for me to retake this test than to retake the 99%ile gmat? (i'm asking which makes more sense, not for confirmation that neither makes sense hah). i've just been thinking that the gre is now accepted by lots of mba programs, it is an easier test to prepare for (considering i lost most of my points with vocabulary questions), it's cheaper too, and i feel it is probably a less volatile test...much more straightforward quant section...so all my focus can be on the verbal. on the other hand, the gmat is a more well-known and more commonly-taken test.
what do you guys think...any advice from people who have taken the gre, particularly those who have scored 99+ %ile scores, would be appreciated.
recap of my background: i took the gre and gmat last year when applying to some msf and mfe programs. studied very little, and haven't looked at either test since then. i have 4-5 weeks to kill and am thinking of retaking at least one of the tests for the sake of my resume...to mitigate a weak gpa. my sat score did help me for this purpose in the past. of course i'd do other things when studying for the gre, so the "your time can be better used elsewhere" argument is not totally applicable.
thanks again!
What was your math/verbal breakdown? Since GMATprep doesn't clearly show your weak areas, I suggest you use the Official Guide and take Manhattan GMAT's free test to figure out exactly what areas you need to work on.
[quote=islandoffmorocco] i know too high of a score may even hurt your applications.
what?
buthopeful: don't remember my actual test breakdown. in the three practice tests, it's been around the 50q, 45v mark. thanks for the tip, will check out manhattan.
ricochetX - i said it to avoid a shitfest. a lot of people (on the internet) say that a 790 or 800 or whatever hurts cause it makes you look nerdy, and maybe they are right (especially about the 800). and they quote some speech from stanford about rejecting 800s, and so on. now i don't particularly buy that argument, but i didn't want to hurt their feelings haha.
ironically, i may have incited the shitfest in reverse...sometimes you can never win.
any inputs on the original questions would be appreciated.
.... GMAT is a measure of intelligence in specific areas...... It is not a measure of "nerdiness"
I dont think Stanford "tries" to pick out nerds by focusing on those with high GMATs, rather, they are actually looking for intelligence
If anything, I guess a 4.0 with zero other activities could be a bad sign
First, I've never heard of anyone scoring a 799...but maybe that's a new occurrence. Moving past that, there is generally NOT a ton of difference between a 760 and a 790 - both are 99%ile, both are exceptional scores, and both (for most people) will require a generous amount of studying and preparation.
The general understanding with the GMAT is that on any given test day your score can fluctuate 20-30 points given a question in a certain field or another, the order of difficult questions, misclicking a letter, etc, etc. That said, your 760 could be a 790 next time, or a 740 without you believing you've done any better or worse than the first time. Therefore, I don't think you getting a 790 is the "right" score for you. It might be the score you want, but that doesn't make it the score you should have gotten.
With average preparation, I don't see you making a jump to 790 from 760 and frankly it doesn't matter if you did make that jump. At this stage it is far more about your ego and far less about the quality or merit of the score. If that is, in fact the case, you are going to have far more problems in your B school apps (in the form of essays) than your GMAT score being at the bottom instead of the top of the 99%ile.
No matter what anyone says, you are still going to see things the way you want - so, all I can say is good luck and I wish you all the best on your path to earn the 790. Just ask yourself what happens if you take it again and get a 750...will you retake only to get a 760 again...will you retake again...and again...
I guess you could sign up for Knewton's 50+ point guarantee. I studied for about 2 weeks and scored a 730(Q:51, V:38) and I plan on taking it again in a couple of years after Knewton's course so I suppose they guarantee me a 780+ or I get my money back.
Good luck with that 799. B schools will be impressed if you are the first person in history to break the scoring algo and thus not get a multiple of 10.
I highly suggest you read Montauk's book about getting into business school. In it, and in other interviews with top adcom members, you will read that retaking after such a high score reflects poor judgement, in their view. 690 to 720 is one thing, but 760 to 790 is irrelevant, to put it kindly.
im sorry but is this some type of joke? this is worse than ricochet...
cartwright, the 799 was a reference to an epic thread on here "799 gmat - worth retaking?". i thought the tone would have made clear i was being sarcastic. ps i'm not going to bschool anytime soon. i might not even end up going within five years of my existing gmat score. when i do apply, i'll give montauk a read.
bankon, i don't think that 20-30 range really applies at the higher end. i can see how a score can fluctuate 660 - 690 or something, but a 790 is exponentially rarer than 760. the chances of pulling that off by getting lucky are slim. similarly, unless he really screws up on test day, a person who scores 780-790 consistently won't be scoring 750, though i guess that kind of downward fluctuation is more likely than the upward one. i appreciate your response though. i retake it once, if at all.
people are quick to judge...fair enough. my original disclaimer was that retaking may be counterproductive/moronic/about nothing more than ego/whatever else, but that that was not the topic of this thread and not what i was seeking advice on. i may be doing it for my ego, or for my resume, or to mitigate a low ugrad gpa, or any other reason - but all this irrelevant. i was actually asking questions about how to go about getting a higher score. can anyone recommend any other resources?
thanks a lot
if you miss 1 or 2 questions at the end of either section, you will find yourself in the 750 group and not the 780/790 group.
i think you have to accept that maybe you are pretty smart in theory but are not able to perform well in high pressure situations. this is clearly not an issue of whether you had adequate practice.
where did this conclusion come from?
It can easily fluctuate 30 points at the top of the range due to random chance (I know from experience with the real exam and the 2 real tests available on mba.com).
At the higher end of the range, it is probably even more vulnerable to random chance - miss 1 more verbal and your score will fall 10 points.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but here's a quick example - one of my friends scored 730 and 740 on the practice exams and then got a 770 on the actual exam (practice official GMAT exams). Another friend scored between a 760 on both of his practice exams and then hit a 740 on the real exam.
In short, it goes both ways, and it fluctuates at the high end and low end. Don't let your desire/ego/poor sense, however you want to label it, lead you to believe that your score can't go down.
bankon: cool, will keep that in mind when deciding whether i want to take it again. like i said, if at all i retake it, it'll be just once, and only if i'm very confident.
can anyone recommend any other resources apart from knewton's?
what about this 780+ aspirants or whatever forum i've heard tell of...? anyone know about that?
The only way a high score could feasibly hurt you is if you retook the GMAT like seven times to go from a 760 to a 780. A 780 is obviously better than a 760, but it is a serious misallocation of resources.
I would argue almost any reasonably intelligent person could study their way into a 720ish score. As you get into the 760+ realm, even thoroughly studying the most difficult Kaplan / Manhattan / etc. questions will not prepare you. The questions, especially the data sufficiency, become ridiculously convoluted. Scour GMAT forums for people trying to get Q52 on Quant and you'll find legit Math majors / PhD candidates talking about how they spent 15 minutes on the last quant problem and still got it wrong.
Some people actually enjoy the GMAT, I would never take it again. Even if I was past the five year score horizon, I'd probably guess that my career was at a strong enough point to forgo the MBA experience altogether (took it this past November, Q49 V45).
^ good advice. so that was a 750?
760 / 99th%
Firstly, your time is better spent elsewhere if your goal is top MBA, as seems to be the case for most people here. Volunteer or something. That being said, let me see if I can help out a bit. Sorry for the long post.
Keep in mind that some of the questions in the 2 tests from mba.com are also in the books, or have been in the books in the past. Therefore, you score on these tests might be overstated, and hence you can't expect to perform similarly on the real test. That being said, the question bank for those 2 tests has been rumored to be in excess of 1,000 questions, so there is some value in taking them numerous (5+) times if you are willing to put in the time. For someone looking to go from 760 to 790, that would be my suggestion, after you memorize the questions in the GMAC books.
Quality of questions varies greatly book to book, so try to use authentic materials as much as you can. Avoid Kaplan and Princeton Review - their books are full of errors, and the questions only remotely resemble real questions. So my advice is, until you have truly exhausted all the real problems available (GMAC book, 2 supplemental guides, and taking the practice tests until you recognize almost every questions), do not move on to other materials. When I say "truly exhausted" I mean that you can solve any question within 60 seconds, and SOLVE =/= KNOW THE ANSWER. You should also be able to explain your logic to others (or at least to yourself). Beware that there are some questions in the books that are simply poor questions, and this makes sense. All were at some point on the real test, and there is often [sometimes] a reason they are no longer on the test - they were bad questions. More so in the verbal than in the math, of course.
When studying for the math, spend as much time as necessary to be 100% confident of the answer, yes even up to an hour. No matter how hard the question, think it through. This use of time is the most efficient in teaching your brain. It will also help you appreciate the beauty of the solution. Review solution of each problem immediately, aka do not solve math problems in batches. Do not ever move on from a problem without understanding the solution completely - if you don't, post it on here.
NEVER think about how well you are doing NEVER think about the experimental questions
I'll give examples of 1 useful strategy per section below.
Problem Solving: FOR 700+ SCORERS ONLY. Make up assumptions. In the diagnostic test in the GMAC book (1st 100 pages), in problem solving, there is a question about the sum of point angles of a 5-pointed star. Nothing is known about this star, which means it is OK to assume the star to be regular, aka all angles are equal. This is because in a problem solving question, any assumption that does not violate stated conditions must lead to the same answer, since there is 1 and only 1 correct answer. Think about it, I promise it is logically sound. And it works. Practice this. Once again, do not use this approach if you are not already in 95th percentile in math.
Data Sufficiency: Many many strategies here, but I'll discuss a little-known one. It does not apply to many questions, but it often applies to the hardest questions. When you can determine (1) and (2) to be equally informative, the answer can not be A or B, and sometimes not even C. So a simple example might be x + y = 10, Find x * y. (1) x = 2 (2) y = 8 Here (1) and (2) are equally informative, so the answer can not be A or B. Also, (1) can be deduced from (2), and vice verse, so they add no additional information to each other, so C can not be the answer either. Of course this is an easy example, but one of the last problems in data sufficiency in the GMAC book, in the Practice Problems section, involves a circle with a and b adding up to it's diameter (look it up). This problem is one of the hardest in the book and can be solved entirely with this approach without any algebra. While I am on the topic, please solve:
Is x = 5? (1) x^2 = 25 (2) x =/= |x|
Sentence Correction: If an answer choice contains the word "being" then it is 99.9% wrong, unless every answer choice contains "being".
Critical Reasoning/Reading Comp: Think about big statements vs small statements. A big statement is one that says a lot, i.e. one that is easy to disprove. For example, "Toyotas are reliable" is a big statement, and when you see it on the test, you should pretend it says "Every single Toyota ever made in the world is exactly reliable, as opposed to very reliable or somewhat reliable." Such a statement is very obviously false, and all that is needed to demonstrate this is finding 1 Toyota that is not exactly reliable. However, a statement such as "Many Toyotas appear to be reliable" is much smaller, and is effectively true in all circumstances. To disprove it, one would have to show that all Toyotas do not APPEAR to be reliable to the observer. This becomes important in conclusion questions most often, but sometimes helps in other questions as well. So a conclusion question will almost never have a big answer, since it is harder to conclude. Weakening language (such as "appears to be" rather than "is", "many Toyotas" or "most Toyotas" rather than "Toyotas", etc. often indicates the right answer, while the lack of such language (even in the passage, not in the answer choices) is often a red flag - the flaw likely revolves around this part of the argument. See if you can use this technique to answer RC/CR questions without reading the passage.
Hope that helps. I often find these hints help my advanced students the most. As far as comments above:
insight123 - Don't forget about opportunity cost of taking the knewton class. The OP is likely a better GMAT taker than his instructor would be. Even the top places, such as Veritas (no, I don't work for them) are satisfied with instructors anywhere in the top 1%, and the OP is not likely to benefit from an instructor with a 760. He would also almost certainly benefit more from spending time studying on his own.
havilape - It is not surprising that math PhDs can struggle with GMAT math - it is a completely different skill-set. The data sufficiency portion uses critical reasoning more than math.
Good luck!
Sources: I teach the test, and scored in 99th % in both math and verbal.
^ damn that's gangster. thanks a lot for taking the time, your reply is great. i'll do as you say and hit the OGs first and foremost. and pay attention to your other advice as well. for instance, i know that time management is huge in this test. as i mentioned, i have taken three practice tests and one actual test. i took the third practice yesterday (my actual test was 6 months ago). i tried to finish each section 10 minutes early. i got destroyed on the math because in the middle i just became obsessed with this one inequality question (maybe around question 19 or 20) that was pretty hard...i spent damn near 25 minutes on it, and obviously it was impossible to catch up after that. i still scored 50 q though, so i guess i had already answered some hard questions by then. on the verbal, i finished about 20 minutes early, and got 45. i really think that if i learn how to make proper use of time, i can score pretty high. i also think that if i study a couple of topics that i have room to improve on, such as inequalities, i can avoid those 25 minute questions. it's hard for me to just give up on a question or "plug-in" or "guesstimate"...i can't seem to bring myself to do it. in this regard, maybe if i learned some of the tricks associated with the usual types or patterns of gmat questions, i would be more willing to just go with a "best possible" answer as opposed to a "i know this for sure" one.
99% in math? and in verbal...what did you get, 800? are you that one dude who got 800 twice and charges 10 gs for his program? are you now going to enlist me !? - i don't have that kind of money...though if i was very rich, i might have paid for that kind of training...or maybe not, i'll be honest and admit that i derived some satisfaction from knowing that i didn't spend much time or any money preparing for the sat/sat2 and my peers who did couldn't have scored higher than me, though i guess they could have matched me.
and btw, thanks again bud. super helpful post.
@island funny i'm sort of in the same situation as you...considering retaking the test later for pride's sake mostly because i am pretty sure I can get at 780+...just don't have the time to burn right now and don't feel like sitting for the test again...especially because I got screwed on time and I could've gotten a 51Q..
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