Engineering PhD into IB

Hey so I have been trying to gather some information on this forum regarding PhD -> IB direction but I didn't seem to find enough good content so I decided to open a separate topic.

And let me note this is for Europe perspective only.

My question is the following - do you have real chances of getting into IB without heavy networking with an engineering PhD? Specifically German/UK PhD to get into Frankfurt/London respectively, primarily targeting elite IB.

My situation is the following, I have just graduated from a dutch tech university but the job market is completely destroyed and it is doubtful whether I will get the job I want (consulting) meaning that my chances for getting into top MBA later on to use that to get to IB will be severely diminished especially because I have even less of a shot to get into a "normal company" in the industry due to discrimination as I am not Dutch and now due to covid the job market is even worse. I can't afford to not get a great job now and only settle for average as I will never have a chance for a top MBA (I am few years away from reaching 30 and there is also the danger of being too old for an IB) + I have worked goddam hard and still have very little to show for and I am sick of it as I have a great profile just not the right nationality.

On the other hand, the bar for getting a PhD isnt so high and I might have better chances there as a foreigner so I thought of using that to get into IB, especially because PhDs are viewed more strongly in a country like Germany.

The question is whether it is all worth it, to slave away additional 3 years - in any case I have slaved away so many of my twenties struggling a lot as a foreigner (I still have an EU citizenship, but it isn't easy to contest for western european jobs as an eastern european) despite having excellent academic results, great internships and so on and I still have very little to show for while I feel like if I just went to a business school got an MSc in finance i would be much better off.

I am well aware of the difficulties there are in IB right now but I dont care about hours, as I said I slaved away so many of my twenties and I got nothing in return because I didnt go to target universities and now covid hit so its absolutely devastating... I mean I still am interviewing with top consultancies so obv I have a good profile but you can never know how this will turn out and IB is something I would like to pursue and at least in IB I would be slaving away for money and great opportunities instead of slaving away for worthless paper degrees that have no meaning due to non elite ranking of the university.

I kind of feel like engineering students always bite the shit end of the stick due to those universities often overrun by business school rankings.


In any case I would really like to hear what do you think about engineering PhDs (does it matter which field exactly they are in) going into IB as from what I see usually you get a summer internship and a possible return offer but I have no idea how that would work for a PhD in Europe (how much will brand of the university matter?)

Many thanks :)


 
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My first degree is in engineering, my second in finance. Before I did my grad studies in finance I was offered a PhD role in a leading technical EU university, but I rejected it for the finance track. The thought process was similar to yours - is it worth it to do a few more years and then look at fewer companies that hire PhDs vs. focusing on another industry and go for different roles.

In the EU languages are far more relevant and integrating expats is "not done in the same way as in the UK or the US i.e.". Not saying that people aren't nice or anything, but the chances of getting hired are lower if you don't speak the language, act a certain way, socialize in a certain way, have the same name or look as others, etc. Having said all of that, NL is a fairly international place with a lot of expats on a decent career track.

I personally believe that you could break into a quant role, depending on what you researched as a PhD or in grad studies. If you worked on some cool mathematical model or invented something new, countries like Germany, Switzerland, Austria (to name a few) will look at that in a very positive light. Degrees and titles are still very relevant in certain markets and certain industries.

The job market is more tricky everywhere, so you have to see where networking, applications and job market research will lead you.

My cousin is a PhD and is at McK (mechanical engineering PhD) in Frankfurt am Main.

I think engineering PhDs can break into quant roles or tech focused IB roles, I am not sure how easy/difficult it would be to break into a FO role with PhD/quant/engineering background. Have never met anyone like that before.

 

Hey!

I am sorry that you are faced with such a stressful situation.

From my personal experience, I have networked a bit in Europe and I haven't met a phd holder in IB. Though this doesn't mean that there aren't any. In fact, as it was mentioned in this forum, phd holders are highly seeked in high-level roles as quants.

Also, don't be that worried about age. I have seen people as old as 34 getting a summer internship in IB.

I have two criticisms for you about your attitude, and take it as you please from a stranger in the internet.

By reading your posts I understand that you feel the following:

"I have a great profile and just not the right nationality"

I have worked as a non-domestic worker in Western Europe coming from Eastern Europe. Though I don't call myself successful, I have met plenty of people with EU passports working in big fours, working in IB, in management consulting, having lucrative managerial positions, while being close to 30. In every country there is a preference for domestic people. However, believing that you didn't make it because of your nationality will hurt you in the long-term. You assign blame to exogenous factors for your situation. I politely disagree with this attitude.

"engineering students always bite the shit end of the stick due to those universities often overrun by business school rankings."

This comment reflects the same attitude that was described above. You believe that engineering students are being unfairly treated because of the rankings that don't make sense. If you were that good academically, you would have been able to be admitted to MIT, Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial and you wouldn't even think about business school as every one would want to hire you.

You are where you are partly because of luck and partly because of your actions

I hope you will be able to overcome this difficult situation.

Just a stranger in the internet.

 

Thanks for your comment.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with what you said about engineering students. You need money for MIT, Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial. Dutch tuition fee is 2000 euros, and the universities you mentioned cost significantly more, plus also more expensive to live there as well. When you come from a poor country, your academic background doesn't allow you to pursue those universities, be it due to it being unrecognized or not good enough for a scholarship. Now that I have a Dutch education, you could argue I can pursue further education at those places as PhDs are not dependent on tuition fees, but there is no way in hell I could have gone for it before. Yeah I AM THAT good academically since I have x2 cum laude on my resume right now. It is all about rankings, it always was.

Engineers are unfairly treated. We spend way more time on education and are faced with all sorts of prejudices regarding what we cant or can do after we graduate, meanwhile all the fancy companies you listed only show up at business school recruitment events.

your comment also assumes that the people who are good academically only go to the schools you mentioned - which is a ridiculous and arrogant statement. There are tons of great schools, but they dont have the ranking you mentioned.

and those people you mentioned, pretty sure 99% have target schools

 

I have made this specific move to IB with an engineering PhD (electrical engineering) as have 3 other people I am aware of.

To put it bluntly, PhD is more a hinderance than a help for traditional IB recruiting. You will have to recruit for an analyst level and that puts you up against fresh graduates who are perceived as being able to work long hours as they are younger, new to the work force and do not have outside commitments like a family etc. You are also going to be heavily questioned about motivations for switching so need to have demonstrated a history of interest in finance, internships and an actual passion for the industry.

 

Interesting takeaway - why wouldn't they see PhD as an MBA equal degree and hire you at associate level? (especially since a PhD is much harder than MBA) and how do you showcase interest in finance with internships if you are doing an PhD - you cannot really take internships then can you?

it is pretty insane to have you at 30-31 something years old doing the same job as a 23 year old at an analyst level

 

The relative difficulty of a PhD or MBA isn't a consideration when a bank wants to hire an associate. An MBA should not be considered a degree in isolation - in order to get one you need several years of work experience. Associates are the most junior level of managers, and when you start managing other people raw brainpower doesn't matter as much. Post-MBA associate hires usually have ~4 years of work experience in a professional environment and two years of finance related study and are rightly considered to be a better choice for a manager position in my opinion.

A PhD is formal training in academia - you work on a niche project for 3-5 years independently. It is a completely different skill set to what is needed in IB FO in my experience.

 

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