A Kick in the A$$ on the Way Out

Legacy, shmegacy! It would appear that the Republican National Committee found a spine in their Christmas stocking, and plans to give Bush a swift kick in the ass on his way out the door. They're going to attempt to pass a resolution accusing Bush and his congressional cronies of ushering in the current era of American socialism by approving the Wall Street bailout:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/30/r…

Not that I'm looking forward to Obama (by any means), but it sure will be nice to see the short bus come to pick up this loser on January 20. Just my humble opinion. Let the bashing begin...

 

This needed to happen. The Republican Party has lost its way and hopefully this brings back the core values of conservatism and small government so we can retake the White House in 2012.

 

I think its hilarious how so many republicans are against saving the financial system. It shows that they are just as stupid and short sighted as the dems.

Which is worse? A socialist-like system for a decade or a depression?

The answer is obvious.

 
greenman101:
I think its hilarious how so many republicans are against saving the financial system. It shows that they are just as stupid and short sighted as the dems.

Which is worse? A socialist-like system for a decade or a depression?

The answer is obvious.

You obviously don't get the how the economy and politics of the republican party work.

Republicans, in general, are against the bailout because the party is against strong government intervention and is pro-capitalism.

And what makes you say the socialist system will only be there for a decade? Can you predict the future?

And short sighted? The whole point of not wanting to bail out the financial industry was to secure our economy in the long run. The bailout was considered a short-term solution.

Please know what you're talking about next time you post.

 
ARD45:
greenman101:
I think its hilarious how so many republicans are against saving the financial system. It shows that they are just as stupid and short sighted as the dems.

Which is worse? A socialist-like system for a decade or a depression?

The answer is obvious.

You obviously don't get the how the economy and politics of the republican party work.

Republicans, in general, are against the bailout because the party is against strong government intervention and is pro-capitalism.

And what makes you say the socialist system will only be there for a decade? Can you predict the future?

And short sighted? The whole point of not wanting to bail out the financial industry was to secure our economy in the long run. The bailout was considered a short-term solution.

Please know what you're talking about next time you post.

I dont get how the economy works? Um...ok? Please explain.

Please answer this question for me: Which is worse? Temporary socialism or a depression?

The socialism is temporary because the government funds are mandated to be paid back. End of story.

 

You forgot to mention the master mind Dick Cheney unless you are gong to miss him, that's a different story

The point is Republicans really lost their way, they just cannot connect with the American People anymore,they need to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh.

Republicans, who oppose the bailout, are confused to distinguish between their principles and polices

Unfortunately, some Republican are against the bailout because of their principles, and the bailout is a policy not a principle and a policy can be flexible somtimes.

A lot of pundits argue that if the bailout was not passed, we could have been in a depression already. The bailout was meant to keep our economy from deteriorating much further

It's premature for now to say whether the bailout has worked .Let's wait and see what happens next.

 

The Obama bashing from you is ridiculous Edmundo. The only thing the man has done so far is start picking his team. Also, your really need to stop throwing the term socialism around like a curseword whenever someone pisses you off. Name-calling like that is pointless, and diminishes any real points you might have.

State your issues with Obama (lemme guess-taxes, free trade, govt size, bailouts), and stop with the labeling. Seriously, its beneath you.

 
Hephaestus:
The Obama bashing from you is ridiculous Edmundo. The only thing the man has done so far is start picking his team. Also, your really need to stop throwing the term socialism around like a curseword whenever someone pisses you off. Name-calling like that is pointless, and diminishes any real points you might have.

State your issues with Obama (lemme guess-taxes, free trade, govt size, bailouts), and stop with the labeling. Seriously, its beneath you.

He barely got a mention in this post. Are you pro-Obama teenagers so sensitive that the mere mention of his name by a fiscal conservative must be viewed as an insult? Don't flatter yourself, or your made-for-tv candidate.

All the issues you mentioned (taxes, free trade, govt size, bailouts) are a great place to start when listing what is wrong with the Assclown-elect. Do you know who is in favor of socialism? The mediocre. Unfortunately, the majority of the electorate in America has become the generation raised by soccer moms who wouldn't let the coaches keep score during tee-ball because losing might effect little Bryce's self esteem. When a nation of whiners shows up to the polls, this is what you get.

And, for the record kid, very little is beneath me.

 
Are you pro-Obama teenagers so sensitive that the mere mention of his name by a fiscal conservative must be viewed as an insult? Don't flatter yourself, or your made-for-tv candidate.
And, for the record kid, very little is beneath me.

Not a star-crossed teenager son, just been getting the Obama is socialist thing from you for a while. I find it equally annoying when people call Bush a nazi.

Made for tv? Its hilarious how all of you bitter conservatives hate Obama for beating McCain at the American-Idol popularity contest that is American politics. \Its not Obama's fault he's better looking and more eloquent(he's also smarter). There's no iq test for voters, so if you want to be president the smart thing is to learn to work with the medium (cough McCain, Clinton).

See, you conservatives that place your faith in the Republican party make me sad. The Republicans are big government (always expand it more than the democrats) unprincipled idiots. Seriously, their base is talking about gay sex and abortion, not economic theory and regulation.

Stop blaming all the failings of democracy on the Democrats or Obama. Yeah, people at the bottom of the pyramid will vote down those at the top and give themselves the farm if they could. Yeah, elections mean the best (or best looking) panderer win. Yeah, Government keeps getting bigger. Just be happy that we've been getting richer and happier at the same time (over the last 50 years) as well.

In fact Edmundo, you should be glad there is a crisis to distract Obama from his green healthcare anti-free trade (and theres no way he wasn't straight lying about that) agenda.

Also, the financial crisis so far hasn't caused significant expansion of Government powers. I bet it will, but thats not even necessarily a bad thing if the expansion comes in the form of smarter regulation.

Dweezy, in exactly what way was Vietnam necessary or helpful?

Seriously guys, we have a system in which super-ambitious people who want the power, popularity, and influence are forced to pretend their #1 priority is serving you so that you can become president. They're then forced to pretend everything you, the voter, wants is exactly what makes sense in order to get elected. What'd you expect, Camelot?

 

And since when was anyone in finance a fucking democrat? Or better yet, a socialist? The words finance and democrat/socialist don't belong together, at all, it just doesn't make any sense. Oh and by the way all you democrats out there, thanks for voting in a socialist, I'm sure we're all going to be thrilled when we start paying more taxes (when we already are overworked for the money we earn) and work for a nationalized banking system. Way to think your vote through...

 
PBateman:
And since when was anyone in finance a fucking democrat? Or better yet, a socialist? The words finance and democrat/socialist don't belong together, at all, it just doesn't make any sense. Oh and by the way all you democrats out there, thanks for voting in a socialist, I'm sure we're all going to be thrilled when we start paying more taxes (when we already are overworked for the money we earn) and work for a nationalized banking system. Way to think your vote through...

Actually, douche, most top wall streeters supported Obama and according to the exit polls, Americans earning $250,000 + a year (yes, that includes me) voted for Obama over McCain so you can stop trying to throw around the "socialism" boogeyman because you sound like a complete cretin.

I'm so sick of all these sore, dumb ass, loser, whining Republicans who feel the need to blame Obama for everything when he hasn't even taken office. I also find it appalling that people like you believe that old, confused idiot McCain who would know anything about the economy if it kicked him up his geriatric ass would be better suited for cleaning up the mess that Obama will inherit.

 

You: And since when was anyone in finance a fucking democrat?

Me: Are you an idiot?!? Who the hell do you think gave NoBama so much fucking money? Please tell me you're in high school and don't read much because otherwise you're a complete tool.

In my bank alone, half the Sr. MDs are (fucking) socialists/democrats/communists. Take your pick of name -- they're all the same assholes, drinking the same Kool-Aid. (You don't get the Kool-aid reference. I know. Its okay...)

Take a look at the Huffington post for NoBama's donor and you'll shit yourself with all the huge names who ponied up to his holiness.

Thank you all. My rant at young "Mr. PBatemen" is finished.

 
REGuyNY:
You: And since when was anyone in finance a fucking democrat?

Me: Are you an idiot?!? Who the hell do you think gave NoBama so much fucking money? Please tell me you're in high school and don't read much because otherwise you're a complete tool.

In my bank alone, half the Sr. MDs are (fucking) socialists/democrats/communists. Take your pick of name -- they're all the same assholes, drinking the same Kool-Aid. (You don't get the Kool-aid reference. I know. Its okay...)

Take a look at the Huffington post for NoBama's donor and you'll shit yourself with all the huge names who ponied up to his holiness.

Thank you all. My rant at young "Mr. PBatemen" is finished.

I'm not young, nor misinformed. I also get the Kool-Aid reference, you moron. I also understand that Obama was given large sums of money, why I still haven't a clue, but I'm well aware of the fact. It just strikes me as suspect that someone such as yourself and half of your Sr. MDs, who I can assume also make a good salary and bonus, would support someone who wants to tax the ever living hell out of our tax bracket. I understand that you may have stronger social morals (ie. you might think welfare and other social programs are necessary) than I do, but I work fucking hard for my money and I'll be damned, because now I'm going to have to give it away to causes and projects that half of America and I don't support. All of this on top of the fact that most of the people who put Obama in office couldn't rattle off one of his policies if they tried.

 

1) The Bush administration's show of strength and resolve to the Islamist world was a necessarry move, brought on by the kowtows of the Clinton administration. In the long run, Iraq (much like Vietnam) will prove to be an action which had to be taken.

2) Obama is most definitely a socialist. Having been raised in a socialist country and having watched the man's political career up close and personal since it began I can attest to this FACT. Anyone who needs supporting evidence of this FACT need only take of their blinders.

3)I sincerely recommend everyone re-read Edmundo's comment about the "soccer mom and little Bryce"...THAT is the real point propping up our current social, political and financial malaise.

Best, d.

 
Best Response
dweezy:
1) The Bush administration's show of strength and resolve to the Islamist world was a necessarry move, brought on by the kowtows of the Clinton administration. In the long run, Iraq (much like Vietnam) will prove to be an action which had to be taken.

2) Obama is most definitely a socialist. Having been raised in a socialist country and having watched the man's political career up close and personal since it began I can attest to this FACT. Anyone who needs supporting evidence of this FACT need only take of their blinders.

3)I sincerely recommend everyone re-read Edmundo's comment about the "soccer mom and little Bryce"...THAT is the real point propping up our current social, political and financial malaise.

Best, d.

Pretend I'm one of those people with the blinders on. Could you provide me with a website, an article, or a link that provides me more information on Obama's obvious socialist leanings? I've heard a lot of ranting by people like you that say he's a socialist, but I haven't seen anything to substantiate it.

Also,

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111279694652423.html?mod=testMod

It seems the socialist is at his crafty game of socialism again. Tax cuts. I knew he was a socialist. What a crafty politician! Only Obama can make such evil socialist tax cuts at a time like this!

 

I'm starting to question some of your understandings of the economy and the events that we were facing. Monkeybusiness123 is telling me that we are going to be facing inflation when the exact opposite (deflation) is a very real concern. Nobody is worried about inflation. Care to explain, monkeybusiness?

The rest of you seem to be confusing your general dislike for us having to bail out the system with your disagreement with the plan. Shit happened that shouldn't have ever happened. But it did, and if you think that taxpayers bailing out the system is worse than a depression then you are stupid and living your life in a textbook. 20% unemployment vs government intervention is an easy decision to make, and every single mind in washington had no trouble instantly agreeing with me.

It's easy to say that something else should have been done after the fact, but when the responsibility of the entire economy lies on your shoulders you realize that letting the system just "fail" like some kind of retarded libertarian is not an option.

 

This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. You need a lesson your economics 101. How in the hell do you think money is being directed to these firms? They don't just appear out of thin air now do they? The government has no money. It has to borrow or print money now in order to lend. But wait, what happens to the money supply when the government prints money, oh yeah, it expands causing inflation. So you tell me how there's going to be this deflation when the discount rate is also ridiculously low and the fed is just handing out money like its nobodys business.

Do you even think about the national debt levels? The U.S. cannot possibly think it can just spend their way out of this recession and half the people thinking they know the solution whether its on TV or on Wall Street have no idea what they're talking about. People want to be more optimistic and in a panic environment will lose their intelligence and do whatever some "expert" suggest. The idiot Paulson cried calamity in front of congress to get that bill passed and look where we're now. Now he's using funds above and beyond the first 350 billion to bail out GMAC. Get him the hell out of there

 
monkeybusiness123:
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. You need a lesson your economics 101. How in the hell do you think money is being directed to these firms? They don't just appear out of thin air now do they? The government has no money. It has to borrow or print money now in order to lend. But wait, what happens to the money supply when the government prints money, oh yeah, it expands causing inflation. So you tell me how there's going to be this deflation when the discount rate is also ridiculously low and the fed is just handing out money like its nobodys business.

Do you even think about the national debt levels? The U.S. cannot possibly think it can just spend their way out of this recession and half the people thinking they know the solution whether its on TV or on Wall Street have no idea what they're talking about. People want to be more optimistic and in a panic environment will lose their intelligence and do whatever some "expert" suggest. The idiot Paulson cried calamity in front of congress to get that bill passed and look where we're now. Now he's using funds above and beyond the first 350 billion to bail out GMAC. Get him the hell out of there

Congratulations, you paid attention in econ 101. It doesn't sound like you've moved much beyond that though.

Do you even read the Fed's minutes? Ever wonder why the discount rate and fed funds target rate are down to almost nothing lately? Because inflation is not their concern anymore. Deflation is.

Why don't you go look at the crude prices and the value of the dollar over the last 90 days. You'll see that there is an unusual pattern developing: a positive correlation. That means that the value of our dollar is dropping along with the value of our commodities. That implies a serious deflationary issue is on the horizon.

You should also look at how the velocity of money has slowed down in our economy lately. I'll save you the trouble of googling it: that means that to speed it back up we need more money put into the system and lower rates.

You need some help taking your textbook knowledge and applying it to real life. You described a situation that could lead to inflation if the economy is already running at full speed and inflation is at or above a target level. Fortunately for us, the economy is operating well below full speed. We need to add inflationary pressures in order to help cancel out the deflationary tendancies we are experiencing right now.

As for the national debt and your comments about half the people having no idea what they're talking about. Who are you to judge? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The idiocy you are spewing here is proving that.

 
greenman101:
monkeybusiness123:
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. You need a lesson your economics 101. How in the hell do you think money is being directed to these firms? They don't just appear out of thin air now do they? The government has no money. It has to borrow or print money now in order to lend. But wait, what happens to the money supply when the government prints money, oh yeah, it expands causing inflation. So you tell me how there's going to be this deflation when the discount rate is also ridiculously low and the fed is just handing out money like its nobodys business.

Do you even think about the national debt levels? The U.S. cannot possibly think it can just spend their way out of this recession and half the people thinking they know the solution whether its on TV or on Wall Street have no idea what they're talking about. People want to be more optimistic and in a panic environment will lose their intelligence and do whatever some "expert" suggest. The idiot Paulson cried calamity in front of congress to get that bill passed and look where we're now. Now he's using funds above and beyond the first 350 billion to bail out GMAC. Get him the hell out of there

Congratulations, you paid attention in econ 101. It doesn't sound like you've moved much beyond that though.

Do you even read the Fed's minutes? Ever wonder why the discount rate and fed funds target rate are down to almost nothing lately? Because inflation is not their concern anymore. Deflation is.

Why don't you go look at the crude prices and the value of the dollar over the last 90 days. You'll see that there is an unusual pattern developing: a positive correlation. That means that the value of our dollar is dropping along with the value of our commodities. That implies a serious deflationary issue is on the horizon.

You should also look at how the velocity of money has slowed down in our economy lately. I'll save you the trouble of googling it: that means that to speed it back up we need more money put into the system and lower rates.

You need some help taking your textbook knowledge and applying it to real life. You described a situation that could lead to inflation if the economy is already running at full speed and inflation is at or above a target level. Fortunately for us, the economy is operating well below full speed. We need to add inflationary pressures in order to help cancel out the deflationary tendancies we are experiencing right now.

As for the national debt and your comments about half the people having no idea what they're talking about. Who are you to judge? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The idiocy you are spewing here is proving that.

You make me laugh Greenman. How angry you are and how you're so misguided. Everything we're experiencing right now from the low commodities price to a strengthening of the dollar is temporary. Yes you are correct, commodities price are down because there is lower demand. And buddy, I don't know where your positive correlation between dollar and crude oil price is because there wasn't a positive correlation over the last 90 days. The dollar I believe was strengthening until recently (check out the index I suggest) and the price of oil was declining, where the hell is this positive correlation? But remember this dollar rally caused by global de-leveraging with banks and investors unwinding their positions isn't going to last. And neither is this low crude/commodities price.

So in order to cancel out this "deflationary" pressure, jackasses like you suggest we should print more money and bailout more firms? I'm just confused to what you believe in Greenman, you said you were the most conservative and free market person, closer to a libertarian and yet you come out and you trash the view of the free market?

And Hephaestus, I don't even want to comment on the non sense you just said in point number 2. Commodity prices are falling DOES NOT MEAN that cost of production is falling. It does mean that there is lower demand because of this global crisis. But its not going to be low for long as farmers can't obtain credit restricting supply and you will see this uptake in the price of commodities similar to the level of this summer. And you absolutely do not make any sense with point 2 to point 3, so I'm not even going to comment. Oh and banks lending and money multiplier has nothing to do with each other. So YOU look up what money multiplier is. Money multiplier is affected by the reserve ratio and as far as I know, that hasn't been changed. You need to figure out wtf you're talking about before you start spewing crap.

 

Thank you grenman. Monkeybusiness, deflation is possible because: 1) Banks aren't lending, which restricts the money supply (look up money multiplier).

2) Commodity prices are falling, which means cost of production is falling, which allows people to lower prices, which they do to try to increase demand for their products, which is down because people are losing jobs and wealth.

3) People are losing jobs and wealth, causing falling demand, which lowers prices and leads to feedback effects with 2)

Seriously, if you don't know wtf you're talking about don't go around bashing people monkey.

 

lol so basically you're going to just ignore facts and write out an angry rant about how you're right. Yet I'm the one who's angry and misguided?

I suppose Bernanke and every other economist concerned about a deflationary spiral are wrong too though.

Btw, you should lookup the definition of correlation. Then maybe go calculate the correlation for the past 90 days between crude and the dollar value. I guarantee you that it will be a positive number between 0 and 1.

 

lol, you amuse me. A correlation between 0 to 1. So the correlation can be 0.002 and we call that a believable correlation. Correlation also doesn't mean causation so you should look up what correlation means. I don't want to waste my time proving myself right when I know I am. So YOU calculate it and prove me wrong because you are simply speculating.

Fact is you're wrong and the price of the dollar has not been weakening in the past 90 days. In the past 15-20 days, yes, but not past 90 days. You get your facts straight.

That moron Bernanke's been wrong for the past year along thinking the best thing we should do is print money. So yes I agree with you the deflationary pressure is wrong.

Look you can't win this debate. If you are so free market, you would be the same republican hypocrites in Washington by advocating your socialist stance.

 

in the short run, inflation is not a concern. yes, we are currently in a textbook liquidity trap, and so right now worries of deflation are more important.

on the other hand, when the economy does pick back up, the Fed will have expanded its balance sheet by over $1-$2 trillion. governments do not historically have good records of printing money freely and not having it come back to bite them in the ass. the velocity of money is currently down, as is lending; if (and when) these recover, if not managed correctly, the excess liquidity will almost certainly result in a lot of inflation.

so i think i'd argue that you're both right, just in different time frames. although i'm sure you'll both rage at me and call me an idiot, because god forbid there be some intelligence on the side opposite yours.

what does disappoint me though is the obama fiscal stimulus plan. if i hear some fucking retard on cnn say "keynesian multiplier" one more time i'm going to shoot myself.

spending 800 billion on BUILDING SCHOOLS (because yes, the problem with the american educational system is that the school floors aren't shiny enough, not that the teacher is illiterate and tenured).

every time the government tries to "stimulate" the economy they fail miserably. i'd rather they just spent the whole 700 billion on universal healthcare, which would at least have some purpose.

 

PBateman,

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/left-leaning-bankers

Finance and party affiliation do not always go hand in hand. Voting for a democrat or a republican does not imply whole-hearted agreement with everything that party stands for. Look at Bush: I voted for Bush, but I'm pro-life. Do you agree with the bailout? A lot of republicans don't. He's being bashed by his own party because of it. There are a lot of republicans that don't believe in every social ideal their party stands for. I voted for a democrat, but I certainly don't believe in everything Obama stands for (fuck the unions). Palin was a huge influence on my vote. Did you listen to the woman talk? She sounded (and still sounds) like a moron. It was a horrible move by McCain.

I've talked to too many closed-minded republicans (and a few democrats) that follow their party regardless of what's going on. It's sickening. Palin is a moron. Bush sucks. Deal with it. Obama's not the savior everyone makes him out to be, but I'd take Obama/Biden over McCain/that Palin moron any day.

 

I agree that Palin is an idiot (I don't think either party really doubts this), but Biden is much more frightening then Palin was. I didn't vote down the line per se, but it didn't take much to convince me that even though I wasn't really a fan of McCain, my vote was better off going to him. In a perfect world Romney would have either been VP under McCain or been the party's candidate. He would have won in either situation IMO.

 

This thread is too funny. A bunch of college kids arguing about the economy!

If you guys look back to this thread in a couple of years, then you will realize that you were(are) all wrong! No one can predict how the economy will work out in the future.

When it comes to your inflation/deflation debate then if you look at the "smartest" economists in America you will see that they are divided equally, with some predicting severe inflation while others see severe deflation. I actually believe that deflation is a much bigger threat right now.

There is no such thing as temporary deflation, because if there is deflation then it can create deflation expectations. If people (the market) starts expecting deflation (even if those expectations are unwarranted) then that creates a downward spiral that is practically unstoppable; look at Japan for over a decade during the 90s.

If corporations and individuals expect deflation then they will not spend any money, since they expect prices to go down even lower in the future, and therefore make deflation a reality.

This is just my two cents. I agree with your arguments for inflation and they are definitely a concern. But the biggest worry is deflation, because once you get into it, it is extremely tough to get out of. I am not saying that there will be inflation or deflation, but you guys need to stop killing yourselves over it. No one knows for sure, but I can tell you for sure that deflation is more dangerous than inflation, and since we are experiencing it right now it is a bigger concern.

 

Youtube Gerald Celente, you can think he's crazy but he's predicted pretty much all the major events up to this point. Agreed that deflation can be a concern, but this illusion of a deflation is due to temporary forces with bankruptcies, liquidations and deleveraging. So yes, during this time, it may appear that there is deflation. But the economy is going to get better one day and the government has printed billions of dollar. And history has shown that whenever the government prints billions of dollars, it has led to inflation.

And the Japanese during the lost decade was as a result of the government propping up these "zombie" banks. So the policy of bailing people out have never worked.

 

Deflation is the current threat.

"any deflation that you think is occuring right now is temporary." Well, deflation is (nearly) always temporary, because in the normal course of things (i'm taking economic expansion to be normal), inflation tends to occur.

Calling this "artificial deflation" is like saying I shouldn't put on a coat because the winter cold is artificial and in the long run the globe is warming.

"this thread is too funny."-stk since when did being in college disqualify one from understanding economics(or anything else)? should we limit all thinking to phds from now on? besides, i didn't make any predictions...yet

pt- Romney didn't have a shot. The tide of history itself (all the indicators) was against the GOP. If you're an incumbent, 3 easiest ways to get kicked out of office:

1) Shitty economy 2) Long war 3) Corruption scandals

Jesus himself couldn't have pulled this one out for the Republicans.

 

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