Wall Street Women/Girls

Are there a lot of girls on Wall Street? Do they have a better chance of being recruited because of the whole "minority" issue? Do the usually move up the ladder quicker than guys at the banks? Which banks do you feel generally favor women rather than men? What are the women like on Wall Street- rude and arrogant or nice and friendly?

Doing some research on this topic, so just wanted to see opinions from this forum.

Region
 
torchic:

how would you rate your tech skills on a scale of 1-10, 10 being completely oblivious to Google or the search bar on the top right?

>taking up precious screen space with a dedicated search bar
heister: Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad. https://arthuxtable.com/
 
jywallstreet:

Are there a lot of girls on Wall Street? Do they have a better chance of being recruited because of the whole "minority" issue? Do the usually move up the ladder quicker than guys at the banks? Which banks do you feel generally favor women rather than men? What are the women like on Wall Street- rude and arrogant or nice and friendly?

No, no, no, none; as rude and arrogant as the guys, but that's just relative to softer careers... like PR chicks.
Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 

There is, obviously too much, but I found this is way much better than female chauvinism... Some inappropriate jokes? I can deal with those because those are just jokes... But smirk and jealousy from fellow females? That is worse.

 

It's definitely there, although the bullshit usually spouted here on this website is not the biggest problem; that happens significantly less in real life. There are a lot of internet badasses here.

The bigger problem is when people interview capable women in their late twenties and hold them to a higher standard or don't hire them because they are worried they will get pregnant and leave. That is the single biggest problem for women in finance, in my opinion. Keep in mind, it is rarely, if ever, stated, but it is clearly there if you know how to read the thinly veiled code.

 
SirPoopsaLot:
It's definitely there, although the bullshit usually spouted here on this website is not the biggest problem; that happens significantly less in real life. There are a lot of internet badasses here.

The bigger problem is when people interview capable women in their late twenties and hold them to a higher standard or don't hire them because they are worried they will get pregnant and leave. That is the single biggest problem for women in finance, in my opinion. Keep in mind, it is rarely, if ever, stated, but it is clearly there if you know how to read the thinly veiled code.

But, but I'm not only a badass on the internets

 
SirPoopsaLot:
It's definitely there, although the bullshit usually spouted here on this website is not the biggest problem; that happens significantly less in real life. There are a lot of internet badasses here.

The bigger problem is when people interview capable women in their late twenties and hold them to a higher standard or don't hire them because they are worried they will get pregnant and leave. That is the single biggest problem for women in finance, in my opinion. Keep in mind, it is rarely, if ever, stated, but it is clearly there if you know how to read the thinly veiled code.

This is very true, and not just in the finance industry. Alternately, there are employers that look upon "family people" more favorably because they feel they will stick around due their financial obligations at home.

 

I remember reading an article a few years back in the heat of the crisis about a former investment banker turned stripper. She said she deals with much less sexual harassment at her new job.

Competition is a sin. -John D. Rockefeller
 
jesus of nazareth:
for girls here on WSO do you also think there's too much male chauvinism in finance? How do you deal with it?
1. No. Or if there is, you learn to take it in stride and even toss some jokes back. 2. See above.
Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 

I'd say a trading floor can get quite sexist. Don't know about investment banking though.

HFT can certainly get quite sexist but more in the frustrated nerd way , and less of the douchey jock way

That said , PE shops and most IBD recruiting heavy Hedge Funds usually have a reputation for being quite professional. So , at worst a girl in IBD has to deal with it for a few years. (Are there any girls in PE / HF who can comment on this)

 

I don't think it's that bad now. Most guys are smart enough to clean up if there is a girl around. Any sort of sexual harassment complaint can be a job killer...in this market, I don't think any bank would hesitate to fire a male employee who might make them the target of litigation.

I'm sure it still goes on, but the fear of termination is a pretty strong motivator to keep your mouth shut.

 
jesus of nazareth:
"She mentioned that she never felt comfortable going out with the dudes for drinks, or whenever her MD made some inappropriate jokes."
Oh no, boo fucking hoo, those baddy boys hurt my feelings :'(. Cmon, any girls who has not been a huge looser and hung out with a few guys in her life should be able to know how to handle that, ffs. Furthermore, Im pretty sure that if a guy goes to work in cosmo or vouge he would probably have to put out with some stupid girl's shit, so if you like that you better go along with the culture. Its not about shaping the world to your feelings but the other way around, and I am quite fed up with all the non-justified whining "its too male-oriented culturally" all around (actual harassment of course im against). And also I blame many guys with their white knightish stupidity, youre making noone a favor and you dont suddenly get more attractive, so stop being so naive.

I have had the luck of working under great women, but those are not the ones who keep complaining and want to paint the walls pink, instead they are the ones who have the better jokes, tease other MDs and are just fucking strong and very funny. Women, stop whining and start adapting, if you dont like it, go work for l'oreal.

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!
 

She tried to "go out with the guys" for drinks? Is she completely socially retarded or just mostly? That's a guys-only activity, what is she going to do there, get drunk and crack racist jokes with them?

 
ChrisHansen:
She tried to "go out with the guys" for drinks? Is she completely socially retarded or just mostly? That's a guys-only activity, what is she going to do there, get drunk and crack racist jokes with them?

hahaha +1 I

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
she_monkey:
i just read this article and all of the sudden 'male chauvinism' on this thread seems really really okay in comparison http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183850/Shafilea-Ahmed-murder-t…

and this wiki page for more statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing

:(

This happened quite often, even in the States. Really sad

 

Where does she work? Sounds great!

You know you've been working too hard when you stop dreaming about bottles of champagne and hordes of naked women, and start dreaming about conditional formatting and circular references.
 

^Morbid, but true.

"Yes. Money has been a little bit tight lately, but at the end of my life, when I'm sitting on my yacht, am I gonna be thinking about how much money I have? No. I'm gonna be thinking about how many friends I have and my children and my comedy albums."
 
bankerella:

Waiting for bankerella's response here...

Not to be sexist (but I have to to answer this question!), but I think men prefer this fighty/aggressive/risky work. I mean, if you're a smart kid, being a doctor is a safer path (but certainly hard and long) to similar levels of success...there are a lot of reasons people may give, but frankly, people being sexist against women, and women usually being the ones who take time off from their careers when a couple has kids, are probably the two main reasons.

-No comment-
 

There's a couple very talented female sales and trading staff in our office, and being female they get an extra tool. Everyone gets the hard edge 'do this fucking now' tool if you're pissed, but I've seen these two switch back and forth from 'hey sugar, that's a nice tie you've got on' to 'Are you fucking retarded? How did you tie your shoes this morning?'. Men really can't get away with the soft edge, and so I think that not only are these women talented, but they've figured out what cards they can play, and are very good at it.

 
Best Response

Wear whatever you feel comfortable in and looks good on you.

I personally only do slim fit pants and occasionally high-wasited pencil skirts. Pair it with a blouse/button-down. Add a blazer. It's not rocket science. And use some common sense - make sure the hem hits the knee/a few inches above + wear tights. My rule of thumb: if you have to second guess your outfit or your dad wouldn't approve of it...then that's a no lol. Conservative always wins.

Hit up anyone and everyone that's willing to talk. Just go insert yourself in any conversations that interest you and pretend to be really excited even if you're not - but you should be if you're choosing to attend. But seriously, do your homework and go prepared and you'll have plenty of to talk about. Even if you don't, ask a bunch of questions. Don't worry, you'll become a pro at it the more you do it. Oh and if some people get day drunk and start hitting on you, just be nice about it - then turn the attention to another person and walk away lol.

Oh and please stop under-qualifying yourself. You had the opportunity so they obviously saw something in you. Your goal during a networking event is to have as many touchpoints as possible. PM me if you have any questions. :)

 

From the first response in the thread: "I would say that for the most part, people are respectful, but you get hit on a lot (especially if you're single) and you have to learn to deflect that with a smile."

I would say this is pretty accurate. A lot of it will have to do with firm and group culture, age of your coworkers (although this matters less than you may think), and what type of role it is (sales probably being the most flagrant).

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 

Sorry to respond to such an old post, but my thoughts exactly. It is amazing to me how many women complain that guys hit on them even though it gives them a lot of power to get what they want in life. Unfortunately they are too young and stupid to realize it was oftentimes the best thing they had going for them until it is too late.

 
  1. I'm in S&T - life is fine, don't think my gender is an issue at all

  2. I date less than I did in college but that's because I don't have as much free time. As a proportion of my social life I date regularly I think

  3. I probably intimidate guys but clearly those aren't the ones that go out with me (I have a sort of dating relationship with a banker at the moment)

  4. No never feel out of the loop. Really gender doesn't make a huge difference.

  5. I'm not cutthroat - I'm aggressive. But only at work.

 

I'm not a banker yet as I'm just a sophomore in college, but from my limited experience with finance-types from a finance club that I am very dedicated to, I'd say, it's fine hanging around lots of guys. The club is mainly guys of course and no, I never feel out-of-the-loop when I'm there. IDK, about this dating other bankers scenario, I'm curious about that too since I'm very attracted to finance-types. I don't think I intimidate guys and as far as I know, the few guys I dated who weren't going into finance themselves, they didn't seem intimidated by my goal of being a banker. Guys who I know who want to be bankers also don't seem intimidated by me, although, I don't think I intimidate very many people because I wouldn't ever be considered physically intimidating...I'm very small and short. Also, I don't think I'm cutthroat- competitive at times, yes. Assertive, occasionally, but only when I think it's necessary. And that's mainly when it comes to goals and career. Around friends, I'm incredibly passive and at-ease.

Anyone else whose actually a banker care to comment? I'm very curious too.

 
 

I'm seeing someone now. He's a real nice guy, but I'm a tad bit more aggressive than him sexually so far....just a tad. Other than that, I actually prefer the male company over the female company in the office. There is only one other girl in my office and she is so tiny and quiet that if you blink you could miss her. The other girls work in H.R. and are scary B&T, everything that comes out of their mouth is harsh. The receptionist is a nimrod. I act nice to all of them though. The HR and receptionist have seemed to form a clique though, which I have no interest in joining. The guys are ok, all nice and funny except for this very LARGE, very IRRITATING fat man (I swear..200+ pounds) who MONOPOLIZES the heat. I haven't gotten licensed yet(three more weeks) but as soon as I door, my female powers of aggression are going to kick in. I already spoke to him about it but he brushed me off. Now when he smiles at me, I don't smile back. This is to scare him as I am a tall ukrainian blonde who could beat him up with the muscles of my forefathers.

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********
 

I can't tell you why other women can't get jobs on Wall Street, but I can already say you don't have what it takes.

If you were competent enough, you wouldn't be asking this question, and you wouldn't have made 14 grammar mistakes in your two sentence post... Jesus

 

As for trading, scientific studies have shown that more men excel at mathematics and spatial reasoning than women. While the average man and average woman scores the same on standardized math tests, the variance in scores is greater in men, meaning more men score on both extremes. Women on average are more emotionally driven then men which leads them into working in more personable roles like HR, social work, nursing, teaching, etc. This is also why women are more likely to be sales than trading as well.

 

There are some interesting behavioral finance studies which indicate, rather anicdotally that women are not necessarily more risk averse, but rather less incline to assume excess risk, re: they're as willing to take on certain levels of risk, but not as willing to take on a lot of risk. Also talks about trading paterns , re: lower volume of trades, equals lower fees, lower fees improves actual return etc...

Also, if we were writing CFA and Mastertrader89 was the vingette, I'd say that he's exhibiting symtoms of over confidence, which tends to impact male traders more frequently than female. But that's just one theory of behavioral finance.

 

do u need to be wearing a plain shirt + suit everyday? If you do a casual top + suit jacket, and leave ur jacket in the office, that should be look fine...

I did S&T so it's a bit more casual, but i leave a jacket in the office and just wear skirt/pants + top to work, put on the jacket when i need to.

I don't accept sacrifices and I don't make them. ... If ever the pleasure of one has to be bought by the pain of the other, there better be no trade at all. A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud.
 
ah:
do u need to be wearing a plain shirt + suit everyday? If you do a casual top + suit jacket, and leave ur jacket in the office, that should be look fine...

I did S&T so it's a bit more casual, but i leave a jacket in the office and just wear skirt/pants + top to work, put on the jacket when i need to.

That makes sense - thanks.

 
thatsWACC:
Guys - feel free to chime in as well...

I am going to be at a BB this summer in IBD. I have heard from some current analysts that the group likes to go out a fair bit. When your group goes out, do you feel weird wearing what you wore to work (a suit) out to the bar?

Not sure if this is the norm or not - just seems like it would be weird wearing a suit when all of the other women in the bar are dressed in 'going out' clothing.

You should be fine. You will be coming from work, so no expect you to dress like Queen B.

I read somewhere that it screams desperate when women change for happy hour. Trying to look all fresh and hot for the guys LOL

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them
 
09grad:
in other words, you want to generalize about how half the population feels about the industry?
trazer985:
so half of the population work in finance? delete your stupid comment while you still can. A tiny minority of financiers are female.

^ How do I bring this exchange to the attention of the others? This should be good.

Get busy living
 

this is wso. 99% of the people are idiots and likely cannot read.

the other 1% works in IBD and is so female deprived that any mention of the word women in a thread just leads to instant brain switch off.

 

I worked in a large BB for several years. Keep in mind that while I was not in a front-office facing position, I still liked what I did and liked finance in general. I liked the intellectual challenges that were often presented, I enjoyed working with very smart and practical people and the fast pace of working life that finance generally fosters. I never cried, not when I had MD's screaming at me or when I royally f'd up on conference calls I was hosting - it never occurred to me to complain or show too much of your emotion at the office. What's the point? You mess up, you learn and you keep going.

That being said, I've had female analysts who broke down in tears because of my MD, who was one of the fearsome critical types. Hell, I even had a male colleague several levels above me whom I befriended and even he was broken by her at one point. But I think if you are to survive in an environment like investment banking, you need to be able to deal with bluntness and criticism. In my opinion, its the only way to grow. And personally I think its the only way to live. But I think I'm not usual for a female in terms of how I think and process emotions....

 
Qisma:
That being said, I've had female analysts who broke down in tears because of my MD, who was one of the fearsome critical types. Hell, I even had a male colleague several levels above me whom I befriended and even he was broken by her at one point.

Wait, the MD that was the hard ass is a woman that broke down the male colleague? Women higher ups, in my experience are often either 2 extremes - A) either they are really really cool (easy to get along with, superstars, etc) or they are B) real hard-asses, scary or 'bitchy' (maybe because they feel they need to go harder than their male counterparts to survive - and also, our world is a double standard - tough women can come off bitchy than bad ass). I've met a few senior women traders - would NOT want to mess with them.

But anyway back on topic - I happen to enjoy finance. I would assume those that stay in finance longer than 2 yrs probably enjoy it enough to stick around. I think the crying is an outlet to relieve stress - cry it out and vent out frustration in the stalls, away from the team, then go back out there and continue on

 

Why do girls post that stuff on Facebook? This is why we get comments like alexpasch's. Keep your whining of social networks. It takes a certain type of person who can handle "finance culture," but some of them are definitely female.

 
watermark:
Why do girls post that stuff on Facebook? This is why we get comments like alexpasch's. Keep your whining of social networks. It takes a certain type of person who can handle "finance culture," but some of them are definitely female.

I'm not saying there aren't women that can handle, and indeed, excel, in finance culture. All I'm saying is that there are certain personality traits women tend to have that are not ideal for that environment. If this were not the case, then there would be more women in the field.

 
alexpasch:
watermark:
Why do girls post that stuff on Facebook? This is why we get comments like alexpasch's. Keep your whining of social networks. It takes a certain type of person who can handle "finance culture," but some of them are definitely female.

I'm not saying there aren't women that can handle, and indeed, excel, in finance culture. All I'm saying is that there are certain personality traits women tend to have that are not ideal for that environment. If this were not the case, then there would be more women in the field.

I understand what you're trying to say, but still - correlation does not imply causation. Is this the same "personality trait" theory that results in a disproportionately low percentage of black iBankers? This is the same kind of comment people made about women in the medical profession and that demographic has certainly changed. I think there are a LOT of other factors at work here, including the fact that women are not usually exposed to finance as an option for their future as early/often. I was shocked at how much resistance I got (not from men - from university staff who were women) when deciding to enter the business school as a finance major. I'm not trying to say any thing is unfair, because we do have equal opportunity to apply to these jobs and sometimes more of an advantage if you're an attractive woman... I just think that this personality trait hypothesis is a little too easily arrived at by most (women and men alike).

I will say that the one logical theory that may coincide with "personality traits" is that lower testosterone levels are correlated with higher risk aversion (and as we all know, less risk = less reward). I don't think that has much to do with crying in the bathroom though.

 

well there are multiple factors at work:

These are all vast generalizations that are true of women in general, however this does not apply that they are true always on an individual level, so please avoid hysterical attacks and dont soil me too much haha.

1) women are much less independent and less likely to do their own thing than men(see risk aversion as you said), I mean hell you can't even go to the bathroom alone. Finance is currently very male dominated, hence few women will try to break in as there simply are no other women there. This factor would affect everyone(including men), it may also explain why there are few blacks, but probably affects women moreso than others.

2) women are less ambitious and less career driven than men. They are nowhere nearly as competitive. Even the most female dominated fields will have men at the very top.

3) Whilst women have the same average IQ as men, men exhibit fat tails. At 120 IQ there are 3 men for 1 women, at 150 there are 5men for 1 women. This works at the lower end as well, but that lower end is irrelevant for us. Whilst 150 is excessive for anything youd ever need in finance, the 120 level and up is still relevant.

 

Has anyone considered that women (generalizing, of course) may show their emotions differently. Men typically don't cry or write Facebook statuses about how work makes them feel. Women could just be a lot more vocal about their feelings...

-- I have deleted this account (or tried). If there is somehow posts still occuring, it is not from the original account holder.
 
luckynum7:

Has anyone considered that women (generalizing, of course) may show their emotions differently. Men typically don't cry or write Facebook statuses about how work makes them feel. Women could just be a lot more vocal about their feelings...

^ This

Every morning I get up and look through the Forbes list of the richest people in America. If I’m not there, I go to work. – Jay Z
 

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- Ostende Mihi Pecuniam -
 

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