I take it you went to Penn?

The law industry is a sordid mess, but the ones getting hit hard (for the most part) are the people who went to these no-name law that have popped up as a result of an over-accreditation of law schools. Looking at your credentials, assuming you kill it on the LSAT and get into a good law school, you probably will be fine.

There are too many lawyers in the US, but a lot of them are wholly unqualified.

You're actually pretty solid.

Option 1:

Network like a mo fo and do a financial modeling class. Keep up with the current events so you know what's going on in the markets.

Option 2:

Study for the GMAT, get into a MSF program at a top school and enjoy recruiting. But will cost a lot more money.

SilvioBerlusconi:

The law industry is a sordid mess, but the ones getting hit hard (for the most part) are the people who went to these no-name law that have popped up as a result of an over-accreditation of law schools. Looking at your credentials, assuming you kill it on the LSAT and get into a good law school, you probably will be fine.

There are too many lawyers in the US, but a lot of them are wholly unqualified.

Exactly, I don’t quite understand why WSOers constantly harp on the legal industry woes and paint JDs with a broad brush, when the MBA situation is exactly the same (every public bus advertises mba programs nowadays). For the same reason you shouldn’t go to a law school outside the T6, a non-M7 MBA is a iffy proposition. OP shouldn’t have any problem getting to YHS, or T6 with full ride.

No. Top MBA >>> Top JD.

Most folks who attend top MBA already have decent professional work experiences before school. So, in the worst case scenario that they can't snag an I-banking or consulting job offer from MBA OCR, you go back to the same job/ industry pre-MBA.

Most folks who attend top law schools were poli sci or history grads from non-targets with no marketable skills nor decent job experiences, who just happened to do well on LSAT and had good gpa. In case they don't get Biglaw offer from the law school OCR, you have zero back-up options other than ending up as a retail insurance salesman.

Regarding top law schools: it's been well documented that a sizeable portion of grads of top schools end up unemployed or underemployed. Besides, I-banking / Consulting >>> Biglaw, in terms of exit ops, pay, career progression, and nature of work.

Nobody said Top MBA >>> Top JD, or that exit ops were equal between top JD and top mba. I said that MBAs are overproduced just like JDs, and for the same reasons you shouldn't get a non-top JD, you shouldn't get a non-top MBA. And no, sizable portion of JDs from YHS don't end unemployed or underemployed

There is a big difference between how a top MBA degree and top law school degree are being utilized.

You mention nobody should attend a non top MBA. I agree. Most folks who go for top MBA already make 80-100k a year, if not more. Why would anyone give up that kind of salary to go attend a non-top 15 MBA? Doesn't make any sense.

Law school is a different beast, since the majority of law school students had near zero opportunity costs. It's either law school or doing retail sales for them. Hence, they have no option but to go to law school.

I don't know about employment prospects from HYS. My cousin went to a top 10 law school (think UVA, Duke, Penn, Michigan level) and he mentioned around 50% of the class ended up underemployed, drowning in ridiculous law school debt.

Even if HYS was in play, I wouldn't do it. You spend 3 years, busting your ass, incurring 250-300k in debt only to end up making what a 1st year IBD analyst can make fresh out of college. Not to mention the work at a law firm is boring as hell. (doing document review, drafting memos, fixing commas here and there, and lots of paper pushing)

Again, not disagreeing that there is a big difference between how a top MBA degree and top law school degree are being utilized, or that law school is a different beast, or that anyone should chose JD over IBD. I guess should restate my initial post more clearly, which is that there is a tendency here to think that ALL JDs are fucked, when the reality is it's non-T6 JDs that are fucked.

Dude. Many lawyers from top law schools, even with work experiences at top law firms, get fucked HARD in the job market long-term.

The problems with a career in law are: 1) there is a HUGE oversupply of lawyers, 2) you learn NO marketable nor transferrable skill-set from working at a law firm, for any job function outside of law.

My cousin works at a top notch NYC law firm doing transactional law. He mentioned that a lot of his coworkers got either fired or got pushed out just within 4-5 years into their jobs, and many of them are still unemployed. I daresay that even many of T6 JD's are fucked.

The different thing about MBA -> I-banking/ consulting route is that I-banking and consulting teaches you many transferrable, valuable skill-set and opens doors into many flexible exit ops. Not the case with a career in law. Being a lawyer is nothing but being a glorified paper-pushing clerk. You learn no marketable skills, doing boring work.

Read the story of relevance, then get back to me: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-reader-suggested-i…

Alright enough of the JD vs MBA debate; it's not helping the OP.

OP, ask yourself, do you REALLY want to work in high finance or is it something you're considering because you feel you have no other options? Take good time to answer this question because you will get the same question when you go to interview for MBA programs (something similar) or for any high finance position. You're course of study and internship experience (two big points of evaluation) indicate you have a pretty serious interest in the NGO/non-profit/public policy world. Your major and high GPA in said major suggests the same. In front of any b-school adcom, bank HR rep or analyst you're going to a real puzzle. In fact, many will assume that you're taking the position just to provide yourself with a job rather than because you have any real interest in the field.

At this point you need to sit and figure out what you want. Accept that you might have to take a lower paying job in a non-finance business role. There are plenty of startups and F500 looking for project managers, account managers, and advertising salespeople that would find your skills very attractive. Regardless of what more education you seek, try to get some work experience.

Dude. Forgive me if I don’t believe your cousin anecdote and the scamblog anecdote over what my friends at real top schools have told me (I’ve looked at that site before, totally a good thing, 99% of people are clueless about the system and shouldn’t be going to law school). Once again (and for the last time) not debating that top MBA is more valuable than top JD, with regards to market, $, exit ops, etc. etc. Your premise that being a lawyer is nothing but being a glorified paper-pushing clerk with no marketable skills is silly, but believe what you want (cause we all know that the real valuable skills are derived editing pitchbooks and reverse engineering DCFs)

Getting back to OP, agree with Silvio’s concern that he needs to prove his enthusiasm for finance to employers and adcoms. Taking CFA L1 in Dec might be a good way of showing that (and will give you something to do while searching for a job and familiarize you with many components of finance). Might also consider smashing gmat and going for an MSF for rebranding and second chance at OCI. CFA option is cheaper and will allow you to figure out if finance really is for you.

Thanks for all the advice!

Just a clarification: I originally thought of applying to an MBA as a non-traditional applicant after doing some public policy or NGO work for a few years and after getting my degree maybe entering management consulting.

Of course, I'm still in the midst of realizing that my 4 years of "law school prep" have gone down the drain and failed to develop marketable finance/business skills which is killing me in the job search now.

I'm such a newb at this so any suggestions of alternative plans would be greatly appreciated.

Hodor:

SilvioBerlusconi:

The law industry is a sordid mess, but the ones getting hit hard (for the most part) are the people who went to these no-name law that have popped up as a result of an over-accreditation of law schools. Looking at your credentials, assuming you kill it on the LSAT and get into a good law school, you probably will be fine.

There are too many lawyers in the US, but a lot of them are wholly unqualified.

Exactly, I don’t quite understand why WSOers constantly harp on the legal industry woes and paint JDs with a broad brush, when the MBA situation is exactly the same (every public bus advertises mba programs nowadays). For the same reason you shouldn’t go to a law school outside the T6, a non-M7 MBA is a iffy proposition. OP shouldn’t have any problem getting to YHS, or T6 with full ride.

It's far better to be a "mediocre" student at a non-M7 Top ~15 school (think Darden, Tuck, whatever) than it is to be in the middle of the pack at a place like Columbia Law School.

You may not want to be a lawyer but I think a JD could still be valuable. Top management consulting firms recruit at top law schools. Also you can get into several types of finance jobs (e.g. IB, distressed debt investing, etc.) through law (usually with experience). Also JD/MBAs are great candidates for a lot of business type jobs. Have you thought about a JD/MBA? Doable without work experience if you get the GMAT out of the way. Some schools have 3-year programs (Columbia, Kellogg) to get both degrees.

Don't rule JD out just because you think you won't get a job. Get into a top school, a big law firm and transition to IBD or PE or distressed debt investing and you'll be golden. Admittedly, it's a longer route and possibly more expensive, but another option.

bmcrhino:

You may not want to be a lawyer but I think a JD could still be valuable. Top management consulting firms recruit at top law schools. Also you can get into several types of finance jobs (e.g. IB, distressed debt investing, etc.) through law (usually with experience). Also JD/MBAs are great candidates for a lot of business type jobs. Have you thought about a JD/MBA? Doable without work experience if you get the GMAT out of the way. Some schools have 3-year programs (Columbia, Kellogg) to get both degrees.

Don't rule JD out just because you think you won't get a job. Get into a top school, a big law firm and transition to IBD or PE or distressed debt investing and you'll be golden. Admittedly, it's a longer route and possibly more expensive, but another option.

Nice try, TTT law school professor.

Is the oversupply of lawyers/underemployment issue great even at at YHS? Is the legal industry in a state of zero job creation where graduates from the very best law schools in the country can't even find jobs?

Does every recent graduate just sit around doing document review? Are none interested in trial experience? Laywers (tax law) are the ones structuring legal frameworks for people's tax shelters right? Do intro-lawyers not learn these skills when they start at a law firm? How does the process of 'learning' in practice how to restructure (legal wise, not financially/management) or creating shell companies actually happen?

I really don't know anything about the legal industry (and am not interested in going into it), but I'm curious if the whole "document review, pushing papers" is exaggeration or really true. I would think it's exaggeration but I see it really often on this website.

Is the public sector side also saturated? Obviously you make peanuts in comparison but what about ADAs, public defenders, etc - are these all taken up by old people who never plan on moving to something else?

Dhanam:

Is the oversupply of lawyers/underemployment issue great even at at YHS? Is the legal industry in a state of zero job creation where graduates from the very best law schools in the country can't even find jobs?

Does every recent graduate just sit around doing document review? Are none interested in trial experience? Laywers (tax law) are the ones structuring legal frameworks for people's tax shelters right? Do intro-lawyers not learn these skills when they start at a law firm? How does the process of 'learning' in practice how to restructure (legal wise, not financially/management) or creating shell companies actually happen?

I really don't know anything about the legal industry (and am not interested in going into it), but I'm curious if the whole "document review, pushing papers" is exaggeration or really true. I would think it's exaggeration but I see it really often on this website.

Is the public sector side also saturated? Obviously you make peanuts in comparison but what about ADAs, public defenders, etc - are these all taken up by old people who never plan on moving to something else?

Dude. There is a reason why the majority of lawyers end up doing something else completely, after 4-5 year stint at their law firms. My dad went to a top 5 law school and was a biglaw attorney. He got pushed out of his law firm because he didn't make partner. He jumped around many smaller law firms - which are like 12 men small firms - which aren't even real companies. Yet, he mentioned that his mediocre-paying, small sized law firms would keep getting resumes from top-notch law firm attorneys with top law schools, top grades, and top firms on their resume, begging for jobs. So, you have zero job security, work long hours because of the pressure that you might be canned any time, do boring work, pay is crap compared to finance/ consulting, and have zero exit options. My dad is actually doing pretty well now, but he started his own business after quitting his lawyer job 15 years ago.

In Biglaw, there is 'up or out' policy, meaning if you don't make partner at your firm within 8 years, you get asked to leave. The kids thinking just because they go to Harvard Law and they are set for a successful career are delousional. Simple Econ 101 dictates that a career in law is fucked beyond repair. Few law schools report any long-term employment outcomes of their graduates, only report short-term firm placement with a lot of fluff.

Basically, my dad told me he kill me if I ever quit my job to go to a law school, even Harvard Law. Interpret that as you'd like.

I am sure law school -> BigLaw -> I-banking is possible and has happened before, but that would be a very risky bet. You'd need to be on top of your law school, end up at ultra elite law firm such as Cravath or Wachtell, network like your life depends on it, get lucky with economy, etc to make that transition.

It would be far easier to get IB from any top 10 MBA, compared to any guy from a top JD.

IvyGrad, I understand that the law industry is crap. I'm trying to understand - WHY - exactly it is crap. Precisely, I am trying to understand why there is not a prestige/barrier to entry in Big Law like there is in finance. High finance (and business administration, it's lowly cousin) is not a sector that is exploding with tremendous job growth. There is a tremendous over-supply of economics/business administration/finance college recent graduates for the jobs requiring that skillset. Yet, at my undergraduate target career surveys indiciate that something like 93-94% of graduating seniors in the business school have jobs - jobs that require their skillset from the survey of recruiting employers. So despite 'simple Econ 101' - these majors from my school are doing fine. This is despite the average business major not doing fine. The reason for this is the "prestige" or barriers of entry where many of my school's employers only recruit from that school. According to you this phenomenon is not present at the top (YHS) law schools around the country. What exactly is the reason for that?

Furthermore, the up our out policy also applies frequently to consulting positions as well (i.e. McKinsey). Yet these graduates transfer their skills over to the corporate world in F500 companies very quickly. For those individuals that get pushed out of big law firms, why can't they take their skillset in taxation/bankruptcy/whatever legalese field to F500 legal departments? I'm not speaking to whether the work is "interesting" or not but as to whether they can find jobs that require their legal skillset specifically.

And would also like some insight on the public law sector question.

Thanks.

Dhanam:

IvyGrad, I understand that the law industry is crap. I'm trying to understand - WHY - exactly it is crap. Precisely, I am trying to understand why there is not a prestige/barrier to entry in Big Law like there is in finance. High finance (and business administration, it's lowly cousin) is not a sector that is exploding with tremendous job growth. There is a tremendous over-supply of economics/business administration/finance college recent graduates for the jobs requiring that skillset. Yet, at my undergraduate target career surveys indiciate that something like 93-94% of graduating seniors in the business school have jobs - jobs that require their skillset from the survey of recruiting employers. So despite 'simple Econ 101' - these majors from my school are doing fine. This is despite the average business major not doing fine. The reason for this is the "prestige" or barriers of entry where many of my school's employers only recruit from that school. According to you this phenomenon is not present at the top (YHS) law schools around the country. What exactly is the reason for that?

Furthermore, the up our out policy also applies frequently to consulting positions as well (i.e. McKinsey). Yet these graduates transfer their skills over to the corporate world in F500 companies very quickly. For those individuals that get pushed out of big law firms, why can't they take their skillset in taxation/bankruptcy/whatever legalese field to F500 legal departments? I'm not speaking to whether the work is "interesting" or not but as to whether they can find jobs that require their legal skillset specifically.

And would also like some insight on the public law sector question.

Thanks.

First, the number of kids entering Ibanking and Mgmt consulting are much smaller, compared to the amount of folks entering law. From supply vs demand perspective, IB and consulting have lawyers beat.

Second. There are far too many lawyers, and not enough jobs to go around.

Third. In IB and Consulting, you learn many skills that are very valued by large number of employers. For example, a stint at IB and top consulting would make you a very attractive candidate for F500 corp strat, corp dev, corp fin, business dev, and even PE or HF. In law, you quite often end up being the paper-pushing clerk developing no real skills.

Fourth. There isn't much necessity for a large legal department at many F500 companies, hence limiting the creattion of many jobs for in-house lawyer positions. Nowadays, many corporations are outsourcing basic legal problems overseas, like India, so even large law firms in the U.S. are hurting.

I am not a legal scholar or anything. These are just my observations. The bottom line is that a career in law is filled with risk, and many times even 'winners' in law end up becoming 'losers'. High finance and top consulting, if you can get it, is the way to go.

So the annual supply of jobs in the legal field requiring that skillset is far outstripped by the number of graduating students from YHS? If that really is the crux of it, then the market must be absolutely terrible.

What caused the lack of necessity of a strong in house legal department at F500 companies? Things like document review and such can be outsourced to India, but law is not universal like programming - there is no way a company could outsource something like product litigation to a company in India. Advising on anti-trust regluations when trying to acquire a company, estimating contingent liabilities based on pending lawsuits, etc - somebody in America who undrestands law has to do this work right?

A completely anecdotal comment:

One of my best friends went to a top-tier undergrad, then to YLS, and has been at Cravath/SullCrom/Wachtell for the last ~6 years. He's told me on a number of occasions that he completely regrets taking the path that he took, and that he doesn't recommend it for anyone who isn't completely and utterly in love with the idea of practicing.

Disillusionment can be a difficult pill to swallow; he was one of those (fairly typical) kids who went to law school thinking he might change the world someday, and he ended up in a soul-destroying biglaw job so that he could repay his ridiculous debt. Had he avoided law school and gone straight to finance, he would have likely been making $300k/year or so by time he graduated from law school.

For all of you you biglaw hopefuls out there: IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO WORK A MIND-NUMBING 100-HOUR A WEEK JOB, GO INTO FINANCE -- DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL.

gg2:

Thanks DrPeterVenkman.

After doing more research, I think I'm interested in management consulting. Would the same advice similarly apply?

I think so. But for #2 obv look for jobs related to consulting. and #3 include Masters of Management or Supply Chain Management programs.