All you freshman need to stfu and relax
What's with all these ridiculous posts about freshman trying to land banking jobs? You guys will never make it if all you want to do over your summer is work 100 hours a week to try getting a leg up.
You know what I did my freshman summer? Go for random trips with some buddies, get drunk, get laid, and have a shitload of fun. I signed FT for a BB recently and by no means am I from an ivy or even target. Semi-target at best.
It sickens me to see all these freshman thinking this is rocket science and that you need to waste the best years of your life to get in. It's simple math and no one expects you to know shit (even the interviews were all the basics that you can memorize in a day reading the WSO guide).
If I'm going to give you the light of day and help you out, I want to be able to go out and have a beer, not listen to how you're 19 and know what the fuck a DCF analysis is.
You have a few years before you're locked into 80+ hours a week. Enjoy it.
Or, you will make it, but you'll find out it wasn't worth it and regret sacrificing so much.
+1
Youth is indeed wasted on the young.
And who are you to be telling them what to do with their lives? That's for them to choose.
and he's telling them that they need to chill the fuck out. There have been way too many of those posts lately.
SB.
^There are good choices and bad choices.
As someone who's been through the process and succeeded, I think OP's in a good position to shed some light on which choices are good and which are bad. That's what this forum's for, right?
Unfortunately, the advice to relax is not taken by many.
It's all about perspective...you only get one summer in college to really do what you want and enjoy (Some peopel don't even get that). You have you're whole life to work...
It's all too true. Freshmen should go do what they want to and just have a good time.
Yes, but i feel the people here recently posting they have 4.0s (and from targets, and Ivys, etc etc) are basically really big nerds who do nothing but cram cram and cram and thus, want to be the best at recruitment, through studying forum posts by industry insiders. Telling them to chill out for this is akin to telling them to chillout for a midterm as its only 20% of the final grade, i.e. the internship isnt real life but just a summer job.
Freshman year is the best time to go out and get some strange ass on the side.
Screw that, I elected to pass on an office job my sophomore summer to work at a restaurant instead! You honestly don't need to get serious until Junior summer.
I don't mind freshman asking questions, I just wish they weren't so eager to work their lives away.
Agree with OP, but wouldn't quite put it that strongly.
I honestly would get an evil kick out of giving some of these panicked froshies troll advice. "Too late man. If you didn't start planning for this stuff with an internship as a runner back in high school, there's no way you can make it into markets these days. Have fun with your new career in corporate finance. Can anyone say upper-middle-class? BWAHAHAHA!!! ):D "
Coupled with 'you should live in New Jersey to save money' amirite?
Yeah, and it used to be that you didn't need internships at all to get into banking, just a high school diploma and a pocket full of dreams. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if, given the current market conditions, it becomes impossible to land a banking FT position without a freshman SA in another few years.
Whatever it takes to get edge go and get it. Wasting time is for the weak.
I really think traditional corporate finance isn't a terrible route for hard-working college kids to be looking at.
Tell that to the kids at my school who worked their asses off utilizing everything possible to get a freshman gig and ended up staying in on saturday nights while the rest of the freshman were out enjoying the last few months of their youth.
We ended up in the same position, but if you're a freshman and can balance both, go for it. All I'm saying is the general perception I have of these freshman obsessively searching for jobs is that they're missing out on a key part of their life and sure, maybe they can run through the valuations a bit faster, but in the end that's not what's important in a client-driven business like banking.
No freshman should be worrying about landing FO. There are so many more important things you can be doing as an 18/19 year old and I can't believe the posts around here/what I've observed at work where these 18 year old kids think their only priority is IBD.
^^^Absolutely. I started freshman year having no idea what I wanted to do. I largely landed my spot in banking by accident. So did most people I know. This is absolutely infuriating to people who took deliberate steps to get here. :D
There is a healthy level of ambition to have. I think that that at the core, there has to be a conservative level of ambition- "I am doing all of this because I want to be able to take care of myself and create a nice life for my family, not because I want a private jet at the age of 35".
I am convinced that many people who spend 100 hours/week working have lost sight of what life is all about. They do not have time for friends, which tend to be a lot more important than money and achievement. People who think life is all about accomplishments often wind up with neither achievement nor friends. People who think life is about friends, family, and experiences tend to wind up with all of that and sometimes wind up with a lot of money too. So the moral is to be a social person and make sure you see your value as a person as coming from something else than what you've accomplished.
Work hard, focus on assiduously taking care of your responsibilities, and try to make as many friends as you can. Beyond that, though, there's not a whole lot you can do to improve your odds at success.
The fact that so many freshmen are asking "How do I land a $300K/year job at a hedge fund straight out of school?" rather than "How do I keep my options open and learn everything I need to competently execute whatever job I land?" is very disturbing... If your goal is to get into a hedge fund upon graduation, every surprise is going to be a disappointment. If your plan is to land at an F500 or an investment bank while keeping your options open, most surprises will be good news and you'll have a happier outlook on life.
^^^ That's the God's honest truth right there.
Freshman year should be devoted to meeting people and getting good grades. Work at a beach, a golf course, a water ice place, etc. People tend to lose sight of the fact that most times your first job is not going to define your career.
Gets me in check. Thanks for the post.
Personally, I think that most freshman are beating the curve if they don't use their new found freedom to drink themselves out of school. All I'm saying is it kind of sucks to dump on someone. People who've got ambition should be encouraged.
Also, this mamby pamby "life's too short, enjoy it" philosophy kind of irks me. I've got to find out where I read this but that is a uniquely American view point, and one which the rest of the world doesn't espouse. Bit too hippyish for my tastes. Plus there is no reason one can't make connections or meet people working one's tail off.
What's the problem? We're all destined to work till we bleed from our fingertips to support a lifestyle we can't afford anyway, why not enjoy the tail end of being a kid before forking over 50% of your salary to the government.
Actually, if anything, that is NOT an American viewpoint. The workaholic countries would be Japan, US, and China (and some other poor countries were unfortunately it's that or extreme poverty). Most developed countries and even most underdeveloped countries, have a lot more days off and work fewer hours than Americans (i.e. Europe, Latin America, etc...) Look at the statistics, Americans work more than most other countries (and the differences are quite large across the board).
LOL wow what moronic opinions you have. Americans work way more than most other countries: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Yearly_working_time_…
Europeans are the liberal, "hippyish" guys. Look at France, Spain...
So when you see a level of ambition that might not be healthy, maybe it's best not to come out with the hammer of truth, but you do have to come out with stuff that the other person might not want to hear- like you might not make it. And finance might not be the best place to be. In some cases (and I often get it wrong), you can either hurt the person by giving them what they want, or you can help the person by creating a certain level of cognitive dissonance that's hard for them to get around until they curb their expectations a little.
Life isn't about achievements. It's about friends, family, experiences, and the Thing that gives life its meaning (everyone on this forum will disagree about what that last one is.) And when we get so wrapped up in ambition, we tend to miss out on what's really important.
This slapped sense into me so much; I am more relaxed now from this one post. Obviously I am still an annoying and contrived youngster though.
Thank you so much (I am not being sarcastic).
Social skills will get you just as far in life as intelligence (if not further). The OP gets this (most nerds never do).
People who take work too seriously make for crappy colleagues, bosses, lovers, and friends. There is a difference between someone with a good work ethic and an unhealthy workaholic.
i think OP is merely plotting a guise of misdirection as to soften up the competition :P
AMIRITE
If you REALLY want a summer internship as a freshman, you should be going for a part-time (20 hours/week?) thing, maybe in PWM, in your hometown (if the options are available). This gets a little finance experience on your resume AND it gives you the chance to see friends from high school, family, and you get to hang out and have a good time, too.
x
I know lots of people who worked every summer in university. As long as your not doing an investment banking 90hr+ weeks job you should be able to balance it. Also some people need to save up $$$, working in an office job is well paid and fairly easy.
I am glad you were able to dick off a whole summer and sleep-in everyday. But not everyone has the same situation. It's very hard to enjoy your summer, when you start the summer in debt from first year, and ensuing more debt coming the next year. Like myself and many of my friends did.
I think the OP's beef is with ppl wanting to do 100hr/week banking jobs during their freshman year summer, not work in general.
Let's get some advice out there for the 20 and 30-somethings.
A lot of guys in my dad's cohort worked their asses off in finance and industry throughout their 30s and 40s and completely wrecked their health by their 50s. Now they have fat bank accounts and portfolios, but I can guarantee you they'd give 99% of it back to be healthy again.
Even if that meant a way tougher life for you and your potential siblings? Meant coming out of school with 180k in debt that you would need to work off for the next 10 years. I highly doubt they would give back 99% of it, if it meant depriving and taking many things away from their children. I have talked to lots of guys in this industry who are 40+ and they all work like dogs for only one reason basically, their families.
There was a point at which they could have trimmed their sails but then went full-speed. What they earned was well beyond what they needed to maintain a very comfortable lifestyle for their families and their kids. What kept them going might not even have been ego -- they knew no other way, and for them there was no middle ground between gunning and abject failure.
The three most important things are:
Given enough time, everyone will recognize this non-negotiable truth. Some sooner than others.
I think they should relax, their kids don't need the beemer at age 16...someone who's 40+ in finance (i.e. an MD), will be pulling in much more in one year than the average American retires with...they don't NEED the money...if they're working it's because they feel it's worth it (or they enjoy the work). Honestly, these people could have retired at 40 with a mil or two in the bank; people are too status focused for their own good.
I agree with Illi-Programmer. Work hard and have a goal to work towards and a rough plan to get there.I didn't think like this like 1st year out of college. But I am doing well with myself and at work. Working towards the next level, B-school. As long as I feel I am moving forward, who cares. Work is eh. Sometimes, it can be very interesting and projects are a blast, but many times its pushing paper and drafting documents, memos, PPT, etc.
Live a little. I wish I studied abroad one semester, but made it up partly traveling with friends senior year to some pretty exotic places. Have some interests and fun/interesting stories about life experiences. Those stories are a lot more interesting when talking to people than some wooden person telling their story of figuring out the EBITDA and how they've always wanted for to X,Y,Z. Man, I hate interviewing wooden people.
I think that Greece figure is inflated. Also I think Canada is deflated, maybe its just the major cities in Canada that have the US workaholic attitude then again.
Dutch/Norway/Sweden I believe all have mandatory vacation times across all industries. As well I think they some companies have caps on the hours an employee can put it. They also have 50%ish tax rates...
As someone who has done work with Brits and Europeans, I can honestly say that the number of "Bank Holidays" that seem to pop up throughout the year is ridiculous. The culture in Europe and Latin America is incredibly different.
They are unaware of the fact that their children don't need to go to Private School nor have their own cars at age 16.x
Hahaha, had similar experience. My client was doing some business with a French company during one summer and we were actively involved in other parts of the project. The main French Point of Contact (POC) like took off for 4 weeks and a logistics issues arouse that needed his attention. This was F1000? company and not a bank. They were technology/manufacturers.Throughout the year they seem to have a lot "force" time off. But then again this only my experience.
Maybe I am wrong. But I always had the feeling it was the case for many European companies. The continental European countries seem a lot more lenient and more focused on leisure time.
Re: the leisure time in Europe.. as someone who has lived and worked in 3 European countries, I can say that it's a pity that Americans are largely oblivious to the fact they are workhorses. European countries have standard 25 days holiday + bank hols etc. I would work in EU over US any day.. just need a visa... = /
Stress is the biggest killer. More than smokes, drugs, booze -- although none of that helps. I know a guy whose father died way earlier than he should have. Can't make a 1-1 connection with his lifestyle but it's not a stretch to link the two. His final regret was that he would live to see his grandchildren or even some of his own kids graduate from school. So when I say 99%, I am not exaggerating.
I read an article a while back about a study they were doing on stress. I guess the researchers were beginning to believe that the reason people with high stress live shorter lives was actually because the majority of them are smokers or something. I wish I could find it, bah.
[quote=Mark2010]What's with all these ridiculous posts about freshman trying to land banking jobs? You guys will never make it if all you want to do over your summer is work 100 hours a week to try getting a leg up.
Mark 2010, super interested in knowing what you do for a BB FT and how it is you landed that job. Given that you say you did not go to a target and had fun etc etc. for the record, I am probably older than you, and spent my freshman summer working at summer camp... wow.. that was ages ago. I also went to an IVY an have been asked all sorts of technical questions at interviews even though I was an Econ + languages major.
From someone who's graduating in the coming months I'll be the first to say: enjoy yourself your first two years of college. Of my friends going into banking, I don't know any of them that had internships whatsoever after freshman year. My advice: don't bomb a semester that you have to make up for. Your junior year busting your ass counts as much as your freshman year where you sit on your ass.... After your freshman year, get a job working as a lifeguard, or valet, or waiting tables. Work 10-20 hrs a week, during the day if at all possible so you can hang out with your friends at night. You'll miss it when HAVE to work +90 or aren't even in the same city as your friends. Get an internship your sophomore year in anything "business-related" IE real estate, PWM, AM, accounting-firm etc. Talk to your parents or relatives and see if they know anyone who would take an UNPAID intern. My sophomore summer I worked for money and did a part-time internship. As long as you can show interest and prove on your resume that you have interest and have the grades to show that you can do the grunt work, you should get a first interview. Then worry about interview prep and everything else, but this shouldn't be until fall of your junior year, aka you've got a year and a half to relax...Will this work for everyone, of course not. But not everyone needs to go into banking either...thats for damn sure
I have a two part question.
1st part....
I'm graduating this May and going into IB. Ever since I started college (and the latter semester of high school) I've worked on a freight dock. $14/hour. It can be brutal at times during the school year, especially with other things I'm involved in. But it's a solid summer job to have. You make bank and, if you want, splurge at clubs and dress like a banker. Fake it til you make it. Beats working an unpaid internship at scottrade or some BS (I did actually do an unpaid internship my sophomore summer at ML during the takeover...that was fun, but i digress). Relax, get a solid paying part time job, and get in the best shape you can because you won't have time for it after college....from what I hear.
Don't spend it all. This might be a great time to set up a Roth IRA or keep your student debt under control, BTW.
I had one of those unpaid ML PWM internships which eventually got kicked up to $6 an hour. I paid my own metro costs too. Hey I built a lot of character.
Why slander people for getting ahead of the herd?
Maybe for some people the idea of securing a job at a top group, and putting in the extra effort is their idea of happiness. You may find that just chilling is a better alternative but for others it's not.
Let people define their own lives, and pursue what they desire.
The idea that pursuing more knowledge and opportunity in finance or whatever at an early age is a waste of youth is absolutely absurd.
I think you need to relax bro.
I didn't know what I-banking really was till about 9 months ago so I missed the summer internship deadlines for I-banking. I will be FT next year at a MS/GS/JPM and had other BB offers where I told my interviewers that and I was still fine I just demonstrated by the time of my interviews I knew my finance and about the industry.
I say this with respect for those ambitious enough to get ahead; but for the other kids who don't wanna give up those summers right away and being a crazy college kid, I can say relax and do that and just keep your grades up. (while I didn't summer in I-banking, I would recommend you do because it would have my interview process easier...plus you have extra funds to make senior year even better)
I didn't even know what investment banking was when I was at uni. Just knew I vaguely wanted to work in finance down the line. Thank God for that too; my college years were the best times of my life. College is where you grow as a person, try new things, go to new places, meet people from different countries. I didn't hole up in the library like some of the other students (most of whom didn't end up in banking) jerking off to stories about Wasserstein. Sure it's good to know what you want out of life, but enjoy the ride kids. In my case all it meant was spending a year in the middle office and then transferring into IBD. Never regretted it for a second.
oh its another dude man bro get laid dude bro man thread.
why is that wso attracts so many individuals that have less intellect than the cornflakes I had this morning? Altough my cornflakes were quite good.
Oh it's another "work is all i have going for me, so leave me alone, I can't get laid so I'll disparage those with social skills...I know I'm smarter than them...i mean i just have to be, right?...right?!?!??!" comment
Gents, I'm sure I have fewer social skills and am a lot dumber than both of you. I've learned to live with it and let it go. Maybe you can too. :D
For me, life has always been about dumb luck. It's better to be lucky than smart, social, or hard-working. ;-)
I am criticizing the exchange of one stupid activity for another. You fault people for wasting their life on working and chasing money and recommend them to get laid and drunk instead? Comeone are you fk in retarded or whats up?
If you criticize people for working too hard then suggest them something meaningful with their life. DUde man bro get drunk and laid man dude bro is hardly a meaningful alternative lol.
Go travel, go learn a language, study philosophy, take up a new hobby, god knows what
on a closing note, unless you want to become a senior investment banker(god knows why anyone would want to do so, you must really really really hate freetime and entirely fail at the buyside) you dont need to be amazingly charismatic and ubercharming, you simply need to be nice and likeable and not totally socially retarded. or actually you can even be totally retarded, someone link me the hf manager with autism please.
I would definitely not be labeled "laid back". But it's good to stop and smell the roses and take account of the journey. Having ambition is great, it's what propels the human race forward and keeps us reaching. But as a Freshmen, take a breather, the world is not going to end you didn't get a "top-notch" internship your first year.
I remember last week someone lamenting they are failure because they got 3.3 GPA 1st semester from Wharton or some other top school and their chances at BB are over. Chill out, there is a tomorrow. Get those grades up and live a little. Gain some life experiences outside of the classroom/library. It'll make you a better rounded candidate and hella more interesting to talk to.
Think it in this way: Having interesting experiences and hobbies actually helps you get ahead in interviews and a stronger candidate overall, do it for your careers, go out and live life a little.
I think it's good to be ambitious. In fact, it's good to be as ambitious as you want. However, part of being ambitious is being intelligent enough to understand that there's a limit to how much effort you can put into getting a banking job at freshman year, and that being putting one's ambition purely towards banking is stupid. Work towards banking to a point, and use your other time to cultivate other aspects of your life--social, intellectual, physical.
The other day I was talking to a hospital administrator in my my city. She told me last summer they had 50 summer internships for high schoolers, and they received about 500 applications. Many applicants already had experience shadowing the doctors. These are high school kids who are eager to become doctors someday, and they started the race from high school. Why should i-banking be any different?
So when people like me see some kid that's wanted to be a trader since Jr. High, it's tough not to be a little skeptical. You saw Wall Street back in 7th grade, wanted to be a trader, and have had your heart set on it since then. But maybe you're really cut out for a much better career in corporate finance. College freshmen have no idea what they will find rewarding and successful careers- especially if they're running off of some decision they made in high school.
I think the financial industry has gotten well past the point where someone who can have a good career working for a bank can probably have an even better career working for the F500 establishment. There's less competition and there's more opportunities for smart people.
Maybe this is changing, especially in the NYC/NJ/CT/LI area, where kids can easily find i-banker role models. More and more kids set their career goal in i-banking at high school or earlier just like those kids who want to do medicine. Why should i-banking be different from medicine?
You should set your hopes on a solid career that will allow you to be independent and provide a nice life for your family, maybe in banking, maybe in trading, maybe in insurance, maybe at an F500 company. In general, a successful person can probably accomplish more working for Allstate or Exxon Mobil than they can working for a BB.
^^^hedgeking
because its really situational. You can end up in i-banking after studying just about anything undergrad as long as you impress your interviewers...plenty of us with non-traditional backgrounds made it fine. Also many banks looks for that fit throughout interviews especially when kids did not study finance and alot of time those soft skills are developed from "taking that summer off and going abroad." Plus end of the day, banking is a "SALES" job as you progress so you "need" social skills or no one will ever put you in front of a client.
Doctors: Med-schools have strict class requirements/path so rarely do people who did not know from the beginning there was a chance they wanted to be doctors. Generally all your doctors come from undergrad degrees that are major med-school feeders. In essence to be a doctor you generally have to know before college.
Also I think most people would agree, I want the surgeon no matter if they're socially inept that aced his boards and graduated with a Harvard MD because I know he is very well trained in his "job-specific" duties and will most likely save my life
There is no undergrad i-banking major. In the end, we all have to be trained for this jobs so kids are allowed this freedom because if capable they will learn in training or during the job. That in mind, I would never want kids who want to get in i-banking to suffer like the med-school kids.
...Maybe all of us who didnt start finance jobs from day 1 just have somewhat of soft spot for those who are like us...which anyway you slice it sucks for the kids who think there is an absolute methodical way to end up at Goldman. Great you care to get after it and try it. I applaud that but you are not necessarily gonna have a leg up over a kid who still had a great BB internship junior year and has some great stories from his summers.
I just don't buy it. How about, "I think most people would agree, I want the I-banker no matter if they're socially inept that aced his undergrad and graduated with a PhD in Finance from Wharton because he is very well trained in his 'job-specific' duties and will most likely save my company."
See how I did that?
Finance is a sales job. That person may be able to come up with a great restructuring plan, but can he SELL it to someone?
No one is saying being smart is wrong; just that social skills matter a ton in this profession, and a lot of junior people don't get that.
Bottom line is that being a pleasant person to work with- and a transparent person where others have an idea of what makes you who you are- goes just as far towards getting you a job as competence. That doesn't mean nerds can't be pleasant people to work with or that pleasant people can't be a little introverted. I am the epitome of a nerd and a geek and I somehow managed to land in the front office. But I do think you need to come off as likeable to the people that are hiring you in addition to being competent.
Afterwards, of course- once you've earned your place and you're a producer- you can turn into a total jerk. But to get hired in and to get trained by these people and to have this kind of an opportunity- they have to be able to like you, in addition to being competent. And it's a very difficult balancing act. There's no real formula for success.
I think a lot of freshmen on this forum would do well to practice putting other people first and developing a service attitude. Spending a number of weeks volunteering somewhere- and doing something that's not a resume building exercise- would go a long way in terms of helping one develop as a person. But the tragic irony is that if you do it for the sake of getting into banking- rather than the sake of helping others and learning about yourself- it won't do anything for you.I actually know what Finance PhDs study, and I highly doubt it helps them be bankers in the slightest (in fact, it probably hurts them).
Something that has gone conspicuously unmentioned: The earlier you start, the earlier you can figure out what you want to do (Whether it be a desk in S&T, a group in IBD, or a different industry all together). The earlier you figure out what you WANT to do, the more successful you will be.
Incidentally, you will never again have the kind of mobility across different positions that you will as an UG.
Hospital internship is also a fit issue for the med school admissions. They want to make sure the students they take can fit into the hospital environment and know the work environment they are getting into. Bedside manner may not be important for surgeons but is very important for physicians. Med school admission uses interview process to weed out those who are not fit for medicine. I would compare surgeon to prop trader and physician to ibd banker. With prop trader, you don't care about the social skills, but with ibd banker you do. In essence, there is little difference between surgeon and prop trader, and between physician and ibd banker.
I do find it kinda intriguing that someone seeking a career in banking is telling folks who've helped run the recruiting process and dealt with grad school admissions how recruiting works at banks. I'm not saying I'm a total expert on this, but I am curious if you're going to be that dude in an interview who is going to tell me how I should really be pricing a call option in three years.
First off, let's be clear. It's not necessarily just about social skills. It's more about how likeable you are as a person. My cat has poor social skills, but he is very likeable. Some programmers have poor social skills, but the ones that aren't BOFHs tend to still be very likeable.
With a prop trader, the social skills aren't necessarily a business component, but they sure are a deciding factor in who gets the job. I think most people, even if they won't admit it, would prefer to hire someone who can make them $5 million/year and is nice to work with rather than a jerk who can make them $5.5 million/year. Now $5 million vs. $10 million might be a different story, but opportunities in even prop trading aren't necessarily as purely competence-driven as you would think.
My Dad had an old saying. You might not be able to be the smartest guy in the room, but you can always be the hardest working guy in the room and the nicest guy in the room. And when you get to the level you need to be at to get hired into prop trading, differences in competence only get you so far.
Most med school admissions involve two stages. The first stage is about grades, MCAT scores, ECs, internships, and everything else tangible. If you pass that stage, then you get invited for the interview, which sometimes is an all day process. In essence, it's not that different from i-banking.
This works well for assessing potential academic performance, but it is hardly geared towards industry, which is mostly for finding a good, competent fit for the team. The bank doesn't need to go back to the adcom- it needs to go to the teammates and managers who say, "Yeah, he's good. I can work with him."
Having been through the grad school app process, and having had friends apply to professional programs, I can tell you that it's two significantly different processes. Unless your medical school is able to get back to you 1/2 hour after the interview (which I've never heard of), I'm pretty sure it's two different processes.
Banking interview is not completely fit based either. You still get your fair share of technical and competency questions.
I think there is something to be said for competence and intellect- certainly in trading and certainly analytics. That said, there will almost always be enough people like that in a round of interviews that we don't have to choose between the Math PhD who burns when someone presses a crucifix to his skin and the nice guy who doesn't understand exponents. We can teach you compound interest, but we can't fix innumeracy or bad attitudes.
It's much easier to get into grad school with a bad attitude about working with others than it is to get into a bank.
Bottom line, if you make it hard for people to like you, you might be amazing at running your own prop shop, but it will be very difficult for you to make through the traditional route in banking. People have to like you first before they want you working with them. Obviously, you also have to be able to make them money and show that you're a competent guy, hence the technical questions and the fact that discussions do revolve around competence in addition to fit.
Take it from people with experience on the other side of the table. We know what we're doing. It's not purely competence, and there's stuff you need to be doing right now besides having a laser-like focus on trading/IBD/research/whatever it is you want to do. Hang out with your friends and ideally, spend some time doing some service in your community or on some work trip.
Being likable is somewhat important for surgeons too. Surgeons' work flows depend upon referrals. An arrogant surgeon would not get many referrals from primary care physicians. So again there is little difference between banking and medicine.
So the real question is who does the interviewer want to give the opportunity to, IMHO. There are many competent candidates. Some are slightly more competent than others but because of the resume screening process, about 60-70% are at a certain level. But the offer can only go to 30%. Who is he going to choose?
Surgeons need to complete 5-7 years residency training after med school before they are useful. They have to interview with teaching hospitals to get the residency slots. They are subject to to the same fit issues as the banking interviews.
Sorry, but this is just false. The bar for likability in Medicine is much lower than almost any other field with the exception of, maybe, IT.
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